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Kieun
11-27-2002, 09:36 AM
Hi, it seems that different aikido organizations use different names for the techniques (i.e. ikkyo vs. ikkajo, or a technique that is kokyunage in one is seoionage in another is iriminage in yet another). Is there a comparative list that links the various names used in the more main styles of aikido (i.e. what a certain same technique is called in aikikai, yoshinkan, shodokan, etc) and where can I find that. Thank you.

Ron Tisdale
11-27-2002, 10:10 AM
You might try to find books that are representative of the different styles and compare and contrast the techniques described with the various names. Thats pretty much what I did.

Ron (still not always familiar with all the differences) Tisdale

MikeE
11-27-2002, 11:51 AM
Sounds like a project for Stan Pranin. (Like he doesn't have enough to do already.

akiy
11-27-2002, 11:56 AM
Sounds like a project for Stan Pranin.
Then again, I'm sure we here in these forums have enough resources to compile such a thing. I'd be happy to host such a list here on AikiWeb...

Anyone want to get started?

-- Jun

Bronson
11-27-2002, 07:31 PM
If you really want to throw a wrench into the monkey add seidokan to the list of styles :D

Bronson

MaylandL
11-27-2002, 09:39 PM
I quite like the idea. Here are some techniques names that are used at the two dojos I train at. They are aikikai.

Ikkyo

Nikyo

Sankyo

Yonkyo

Kotegaeshi

Shihonage

Iriminage

Kaitenage

Tenshinage (sp?)

Koshinage (like a judo hip throw)

Jijunage (sometimes called jijugarame)

Odegarame (sp?) assuming left foot forward, nage enters from a right hand tsuki by Uke . Left arm wraps at the crook of the elbow and right hand takes wrist. The body movement leads Uke in a circle to the left. Nages arms form a figure four lock and then leads Uke in another circular movement to the right with Uke's right hand being moved by nage to Uke's face.

Then there's a whole set of techniques all under the umbrella of Kokyunage including the kokyuho exercises.

Happy training all :)

Bud
11-27-2002, 10:49 PM
I think it's spelled tenchi nage (in English anyway. most books spell it that way)

To add to the list:

sumi otoshi(I've seen some recent books show what looks like sumi otoshi but describe it as a kokyu nage.)

aiki otoshi

hiji kime

kiri otoshi (not sure about this one. nage gets behind uke from any attack, grabs both of uke's shoulders and pull him backward and down)

erikmenzel
11-28-2002, 02:09 AM
To be added to the aikikai list(So of the top of my head):

gokyo

ude garami

ude kime nage

kanseki otoshi

konoha gaeshi

MikeE
11-28-2002, 08:29 AM
Maybe we should possibly try to categorize them into the type of kansetsu or nage technique they are. Or possibly as defenses different attacks?

I.E.

OTOSHI: Sumi Hiji, Maki, Kiri, Kata, etc.

GARAME: Ude, Hiji, Kata, Ganseki, etc.

Then have explanations. Wheeeeewww!

Could be a lot of work. Maybe someone has a better idea.

In Aiki,

Bud
11-28-2002, 09:26 AM
The problem is getting mpegs or images of the techniques so the people working on the list can see what it is. I'm sure that a lot of the kokyu nage that I know have proper names for them.

Nacho_mx
11-28-2002, 06:22 PM
Tenshinage (sp?)= tenchinage, some people confuse it with a form of iriminage, but itīs not!

Jijunage (sometimes called jijugarame)= jujinage, itīs natural to get confused.

Odegarame (sp?) = Udegarame.

The techiques are quite few, but the variations (someones very subtle) are endless.

Happy Thanksgiving

Gobble! Gobble!

Go Cowboys!!!

L. Camejo
11-28-2002, 09:15 PM
Just to add some Shodokan nomenclature to Mayland's Aikikai set. Also give some info on the type of technique.

Aikikai - Shodokan

Ikkyo - Oshi Taoshi - Hiji waza (elbow tech)

Nikyo - Kote mawashi (or gyakute dori kote hineri osae) - Tekubi waza (wrist tech)

Sankyo - Kote hineri (or junte dori kotehineri osae, also tenkai kote hineri) -tekubi waza

Yonkyo - (Tekubi osae)- Tekubi waza (I think)

Kotegaeshi - Same - tekubi waza

Shihonage - Tenkai kote gaeshi - tekubi waza

Iriminage - Aigamae ate (or Gyakugamae ate for sokumen irimi nage) - atemi waza (striking tech)

Kaitenage - Tenkai Nage - hiji waza i think

Tenchinage - Same (or Tentai Aigamae ate) - atemi waza

Koshinage - Koshi guruma? - not sure what waza :)

Jujinage - Same (I think)- hiji waza

Udegarame - Ude gaeshi - hiji waza

Hope this helps, this is only the beginning of a list I've been working on. Peter, Sean and the other Shodokan guys may be able to clarify some of the stuff I'm unsure about.

Arigato Gozaimashita

L.C.:ai::ki:

PeterR
11-28-2002, 09:27 PM
Tenshinage (sp?)= tenchinage, some people confuse it with a form of iriminage, but itīs not!
Could you expand on this - I'm one of the confused.

MaylandL
11-28-2002, 10:51 PM
To be added to the aikikai list(So of the top of my head):

gokyo

....
Can you please explain Eric. I don't think that I have seen this one. If I have we may call it by a different name.

Happy training :)

erikmenzel
11-29-2002, 02:25 AM
Can you please explain Eric. I don't think that I have seen this one. If I have we may call it by a different name.
No problem.

Gokyo is the technique also known as ude nobashi. It, afaik, was originaly designed to be a defense against a knife attack. Most common forms are shomen uchi dai gokyo and yokomen uchi dai gokyo. They are afaik standard techniques within the aikikai curiculum.

Describing techniques is not my specialty but I will give it a try.The technique resembles ikkyo in some aspects, but the major difference is that the nage's hand takes uke's wrist from the other side. If you can watch movieclips with realplayer you can watch these clips at

http://www.aikikai.nl/graden/index.htm

Hope this helps.

Greetings and enjoy training. ;)

Bud
11-29-2002, 03:23 AM
Could you expand on this - I'm one of the confused.
Tenchi nage is usually first taught as a response to ryote dori. Nage moves toward uke in irimi (to the side) and one hand of nage goes downward and ideally behind uke. Nage's other hand goes upward and off balances uke upward before continuing behind uke's ear, similar to nage's arm in rimi nage. Uke is thrown backward.

Is this being named kokyu nage nowadays?

Nacho_mx
11-29-2002, 04:28 AM
Bud is correct in his description of tenchi nage, also known as "heaven and earth" throw, heaven refers to the upper hand and earth to the lower hand. Itīs usually a 5th kyu technique.

Bud
11-29-2002, 05:22 AM
How about this one:

Nage inserts an arm at the crook of uke's arm. Nage cuts his hand downward, bending uke's elbow and forcing uke down.

My understanding is that the Aikikai calls this ude garami. Can anyone confirm this?

Creature_of_the_id
11-29-2002, 05:58 AM
BUd, I dont think Peter's confusion would be over what tenchi nage actually is or how it is performed. but instead over its classification. I could easily consider tenchinage as a form of iriminage because of its entering body movement. in the same way that many (or all) throws can be considered forms of kokyo nage.

the technique you describe in post 18, our association calls that ude garami also.

Ude kimi ose has been missed aswell... difficult to describe. its like a standing gokyo pin with pressure on the elbow. good for knife defence.

I think when it is pinned on the ground some people call it Rokkyo.

aiki otoshi is in our sylabus also (I think it is atemi waza in shotokan).

get low behind your partner taking their balance and sweeping their legs away with your arms. dropping them in front or behind you.

Bud
11-29-2002, 09:08 AM
that push to the chin / atemi to the throat technique. what does the Aikikai call that? is that shomen ate?

PeterR
11-30-2002, 02:47 AM
BUd, I dont think Peter's confusion would be over what tenchi nage actually is or how it is performed. but instead over its classification. I could easily consider tenchinage as a form of iriminage because of its entering body movement. in the same way that many (or all) throws can be considered forms of kokyo nage.
Exactly, it is the first time I have heard tenchinage denied an irimi classification.

In Shodokan parlance it is ryote dori variation of aigamae-ate. Aigamae-ate is definately an irimi technique.

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/history/kyogi/kihon/atemi_e.html

I would be interested in an expansion of the reasons you would not consider tenchinage so.

Bud
11-30-2002, 06:12 AM
hmmm...so is the term "tenchi nage" fairly new? I'd consider it an irimi technique as well. Now I'm curious as to the history of the term "tenchi nage".

siwilson
12-01-2002, 02:09 PM
Refering to the original question, and the 2 terms, "Ikkajo" and "Ikkyo", as I learnt.

"Ikkajo" is "First Control", the original term used by O'Sensei pre-war, and is still used by the Yoshinkan and Shudokan schools. The term "Ikkyo" means "First Principle" and mirrored the change in emphasis within the Aikikai from the more martial practice of pre-war Aikido.

The same obviously applies to Nikajo/Nikyo, Sankajo/Sankyo, Yonkajo/Yonkyo, Gokajo/Gokyo.

:ai:

MaylandL
12-01-2002, 05:38 PM
No problem.

Gokyo is the technique also known as ude nobashi. It, afaik, was originaly designed to be a defense against a knife attack. Most common forms are shomen uchi dai gokyo and yokomen uchi dai gokyo. They are afaik standard techniques within the aikikai curiculum.

....
Thank you Eric

You are correct in saying that they are part of the aikikai curriculum. However, my senseis teaches this technique as a variation to ikkyo.

Its a very dynamic technique to do and my primary sensei teaches this technique as a knife defence from shomen or yokomen attack.

All the best and happy training :)

PeterR
12-01-2002, 05:55 PM
Terms like tenchinage and shihonage have always been part of Aikido terminology - they pre-date the Ikkajo/Ikkyo etc terms. Shodokan terms were intended to be more descriptive of what was actually happening. Tomiki sometimes used older terms, sometimes modern to make that happen. We of course, through having to deal with our brethren from other styles, know most of the other terms.
hmmm...so is the term "tenchi nage" fairly new? I'd consider it an irimi technique as well. Now I'm curious as to the history of the term "tenchi nage".

aikido_fudoshin
12-01-2002, 09:18 PM
Is there a difference between nage and sh'te? Why are two different terms used in different styles to designate the same person?

siwilson
12-02-2002, 11:39 AM
Is there a difference between nage and sh'te? Why are two different terms used in different styles to designate the same person?
Add to that "Tori", which the Yoshinkan used before Sh'te, O'Sensei used to use (see "Budo") and which we (the Shudokan) use still. Not being a Japanese speaker I would be very interested in the reason for the changes.

:rolleyes:

L. Camejo
12-02-2002, 06:08 PM
What about things like Gedan Ate http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/history/kyogi/kihon/atemi_e.html or Waki Gatame http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/history/kyogi/kihon/hiji_e.html ?

What are the names of these techniques in other Aikido styles? Honestly, I haven't seen them practiced at all outside of Shodokan. But my experience outside Shodokan can still be considered limited :)

Anyone?

L.C.:ai::ki:

akiy
12-02-2002, 06:11 PM
Gedan ate is sometimes called "aiki nage" in the Aikikai syllabus. Others call it "sukui nage" (a la judo).

Waki gatame is sometimes called "rokkyo" in the Aikikai syllabus.

-- Jun

chadsieger
12-02-2002, 10:42 PM
Not to add more confusion to the mix but....:p

Although tenchinage is a technique that we learn and train with (loosely Aikikai), I was once given the insight that in-fact all Aikido techniques have a tenchi aspect. Push/pull, up/down, forward/back, yin/yang, heaven/earth create instability in the uke. These "phenomena" are one of the reasons that Aikido techniques work.

Give yourself a kotegaeshi. One side of your hand goes one way, the other goes the opposite. The "tension" created makes the hold.

Have fun looking at all of your techniques for this "tension." Don't get too analytical about your techniques, but very often when a technique doesn't work properly, it is possible that you are yinning too much without any yang. :D

Sieger

diesel
12-03-2002, 12:45 PM
Not to add more confusion to the mix but....:p

Although tenchinage is a technique that we learn and train with (loosely Aikikai), I was once given the insight that in-fact all Aikido techniques have a tenchi aspect. Push/pull, up/down, forward/back, yin/yang, heaven/earth create instability in the uke. These "phenomena" are one of the reasons that Aikido techniques work.

Give yourself a kotegaeshi. One side of your hand goes one way, the other goes the opposite. The "tension" created makes the hold.

Have fun looking at all of your techniques for this "tension." Don't get too analytical about your techniques, but very often when a technique doesn't work properly, it is possible that you are yinning too much without any yang. :D

Sieger
This is like a conversation we had in class the other night.. We were talking about how to throw a person. In order for a person to fall(go down), they must first be lifted up. Up.. down.. yin.. yang. Same thing. Kind of made techniques click in my head..

Cheers,

Eric