shime waza

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[Bud]

How is shime waza taught? I've only seen one example of aikido choking techniques and I'd like to know if anyone has seen any of the shihan teach it.

[diesel]

How is shime waza taught? I've only seen one example of aikido choking techniques and I'd like to know if anyone has seen any of the shihan teach it.
I've seen one go in to do an irimi nage, but instead of doing the throw.. shift weight and close up with a guillotine choke. Something like that?

Eric

[MikeE]

We teach many kubishime techniques. Many times they are coupled with other waza to make them more effective. I.E. Sankyo on ukes arm while spinning them into kubishime.

Sosa Sensei used to do quite a few variations.

[Alfonso]

still got a sore throat from being uke into this.. but when we practice it it's usually to illustrate "so from this position you can do this..."

[Bud]

I've seen one go in to do an irimi nage, but instead of doing the throw.. shift weight and close up with a guillotine choke. Something like that?

Eric
hmm...I'm not sure if I understand what you describe. The similar sounding waza I know of is more of a immobilization rather than a choke. it starts as a kokyu nage and instead of throwing uke back or down with the back of the arm, you turn your arm upside down and grab him by the neck. the technique finishes with nage making a back step and kneeling down, so uke's arm nearest nage is right over nage's raised knee and having pressure applied to the elbow.

A visiting shihan demonstrated a choke which was applied for shomen uchi. Nage goes behind uke as in irimi nage but immediately applies the choke, which looks very much like kata ha jime in judo.

[akiy]

A visiting shihan demonstrated a choke which was applied for shomen uchi. Nage goes behind uke as in irimi nage but immediately applies the choke, which looks very much like kata ha jime in judo.
My current teacher just did a great class last week entirely on tachidori in which he did the above sort of technique. He referrred to it as an "okuerijime," though.

Reminds me of when he did a variation of iriminage in which he used both hands on my neck during the balance break in the tenkan -- effectively choking me and throwing me at the same time. Eek.

-- Jun

[Kevin Wilbanks]

still got a sore throat from being uke into this.. but when we practice it it's usually to illustrate "so from this position you can do this..."
Be careful about letting Aikido people choke you, as most don't seem to know much about what they are doing, and the chokes end up being very dangerous. Any choke where the force is being applied by the forearm directly into the trachea is very dangerous. What makes it 'work' is when it crushes the cartilidge rings that keep the trachea open and the chokee can no longer breathe. If the 'windpipe' is completely crushed, an immediate tracheotomy may be necessary in order to keep the victim alive. Basically, it is not a very practiceable choke. I recommend that if you feel pressure on your trachea, tap out immediately. If you are still sore days later, you tapped too late.

A proper, practiceable choke is designed to cut off the blood supply to the head and merely cause unconsciousness, not death by asphyxiation. In this type of choke, the trachea is spared most of the pressure in the "V" of the bent arm, or some other V-shaped combination of gi, arm, leg, etc...

Perhaps some Aikidoka know what they are doing, but I'd say that if you want to learn how to choke, go find someone well-trained in judo or jujutsu.

[Marty]

I just wanted to make a few points. First blood chokes are still very dangerous “A proper, practicable choke is designed to cut off the blood supply to the head and merely cause unconsciousness, not death by asphyxiation.” This is not true, death by asphyxiation is still the end result in fact it happens much faster. (the deff. of asphyxiation is death by lack of O2 to the brain). This is a natural result of chocking the arteries (blood flow) to the brain. I have been told that in a good blood choke you have about 3-4 hart beats after unconsciousness before brain damage. I say all of this just to illustrate that care should be taken. I have always been told that when you feel the choke tap out. I have had good chokes applied and the hit fast and hard.

Now after all of that blood chokes are safer for both parties if the choker is aware (even in real life). This is because an air choke relies on crushing the trachea. In practice of course this would not be applied completely (no one wants to kill anyone), but there is still a danger of swelling after (up to a few hours post attack), which can cause death even long after the “choke” is over. This is true of even mild choking events were the cartilage in the trachea is still intact. The second reason that blood chokes are safer is that in a real altercation the speed of the choke (really only a few seconds) will knock out an attacker before they could struggle and damage themselves or before they can attack again.

Marty

[akiy]

A proper, practiceable choke is designed to cut off the blood supply to the head and merely cause unconsciousness, not death by asphyxiation.
If I remember correctly, a choke cuts off air (asphyxiation) whereas strangulation cuts off the blood supply to the brain. (Since I'm being nitpicky, I guess I'll point out that I misused the term "choke" above, too. Oops.)

In any case, good information from Kevin.

Anyhow, there's an article about chokes and their danger here on this very site:

http://www.aikiweb.com/techniques/gunther1.html

-- Jun

[Kevin Wilbanks]

First,

asphyxia : to kill or make unconscious by inadequate oxygen, presence of noxious agents, or other obstruction to normal breathing (from Merriam Websters Online)

Although temporarily impeding blood flow to the brain deprives oxygen to the brain, that seems rather roundabout, and breathing is not effected. What is really being deprived is blood flow, so I can't see calling the purpose of this kind of choke/strangulation asphyxiation.

Second,
The second reason that blood chokes are safer is that in a real altercation the speed of the choke (really only a few seconds) will knock out an attacker before they could struggle and damage themselves or before they can attack again.
This seems a little absurd to me. One has to hold a 'blood choke' for several seconds to cause unconsciousness, and somewhat longer for 'brain death'. If you've ever rolled in a grappling art, the choke leaves plenty of time to struggle, especially given the difficulty of applying it 100% on an unwilling opponent. In other words, there is a lot of room in which to practice.

On the other hand, a windpipe can be crushed virtually instantaneously - actually even with a strike. Once thus crushed, there's no easing up or submitting. It may take a while to suffocate thereafter, but I don't think you'll have to worry about the person struggling or attacking again... as far as 'damaging themselves', how much more damaged can you be than a minute or so from death without surgical intervention? In a practice setting, the trachea-crushing choke has to be a pain compliance technique, and if the uke is ignorant of the danger and tries to play tough-guy...

In summary, as a practice technique, I think there is no comparison in terms of safety. As a martial technique, I'd say crushing the trachea would have to be considered faster and more 'effective', providing you have lethal intent. Obviously, I'm saying all this on the basis of anatomy and deduction, not an illustrious history of killing people.

BTW, BJJ and Judo groups practice with chokes extensively. Does anyone have any info on choke injury stats for these groups?

[Jim ashby]

Iresponse to Bud, yes I have seen it taught. On our seminar with Donovan Waite Sensei, he taught several variations. Great stuff from a really nice man.

Have fun.

[aikigreg]

Ahhh yes, the ever popular "Chokyunage" ;) We were practicing it just Wed Night in a pretty cool context.

Say someone assaults not you, but your significant other or friend who cannot defend.

That was the scenario, and we practiced many interesting ways to get your friend out of the hold, including rear chokes and doing nikyo on the attacker using your FRIEND'S body. Totally sweet!

[Alfonso]

Be careful about letting Aikido people choke you, as most don't seem to know much about what they are doing, and the chokes end up being very dangerous.

well, my sensei is actually pretty knowledgeable on the subject. Since we're being precise what he usually teaches is strangulation. anything crushing the front is a noooooo no class and its be made inifinitely clear to me.

the stupidity came on my part :rolleyes: i'd been reading.. and somewhere got the notion that *smiling* would relax my neck muscles and my interpretation that it would somehow prove to be an advantage in a choke situation got a an opportunity to be tested when I was being used to demonstrate and was already well held at the end of a tech.

.. so i tried it.. and indeed the muscles relaxed in and i realized the tension i had was what had me pinned .. and sensei reflexively reacted by colapsing the hold with my relaxation.. which suddenly left me a hell of a lot tighter than before.

After I was released my throat felt like i was in the middle of a strep throat attack (but only in the oustide part of the throat if you can imagine that , in but not within..)

OK, I felt compelled to detail this so a) someone else can benefit from my bad experience , and b) make it clear that it was myself that brought it on.

I can't generalize about Aikido instructors and choking, but the one I have is definitely in the knowing end of the spectrum..

[willy_lee]

BTW, BJJ and Judo groups practice with chokes extensively. Does anyone have any info on choke injury stats for these groups?
A good source of info:

"How Safe is Choking in Judo?"

http://www.judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm

=wl

[Kevin Wilbanks]

Thanks for the link.

Speak of the Devil though... I just travelled across town to try a class at a Judo dojo tonight. It was all ground techniques. Everything was fine until I got paired with this Ken-doll looking guy who was a black belt, substantially bigger and stronger than me, and also an assistant instructor at the school. He knew it was my first class, and I told him that I had almost no groundfighting experience. The drill was to try to escape from the guard... at least I thought it was. He proceeded to choke me from several positions, even one that I thought I couldn't be choked from. During one choke he pulled my gi lapel straight across my throat while pulling up on the other, applying the pressure directly to my larynx. By the time I was able to tap, my throat was already in serious pain. I spent the rest of the class intermittently coughing, having difficulty swallowing, and attempting to massage some of the painful structures. So much for the assumption that Judo people know more, or care about safe choking practice. Considering he is one of the schools instructors, I don't see myself ever going back. For an instructor to do that to someone with no virtually no experience within the first few minutes of practicing together for the first time... it kind of blows my mind. I'm going to try to ice it a little tonight.

[Bud]

sorry to hear about your experience, Kevin. I've heard a lot of similar stories, of martial arts instructors bullying newbies. Unfortunately even aikido has them.

I'd like to thank everyone who responded. Got a lot on insight on this rather obscure waza.

[Kevin Wilbanks]

I'm still awake. I can't sleep because swallowing hurts too much. It's almost exactly like strep throat. I don't think the guy was really trying to 'bully' me, unless he was extremely passive-aggressive about it. It seemed more like negligence and/or ignorance. Although how a black belt/instructor in Judo could be ignorant of the impropriety of such a choke, I don't know. If I end up needing medical care this is going to get ugly.

[Alfonso]

sorry to hear that . It's been a week since my choke conundrum and i'm mostly ok, though there's still some discomfort left swallowing.

Maybe some ibuprofen will help the inflammation go down.

definitely go see a doctor.

be careful when playing with chokes. Easy to go overboard it seems.

[Bud]

kevin, you might have been injured more than you realize. I suggest you see a doctor ASAP.

[bob_stra]

>"Kevin Wilbanks" During one choke >he pulled my gi lapel straight >across my throat while pulling up >on the other, applying the >pressure directly to my larynx.


Consider yourself lucky. I had the lining to my throat literally torn out from this very same choke. (The gross part was actually feeling the lining sliding down your gob as you swallow).

Most times, this choke is applied incorrectly (into the throat, rather than diagonally accross as is intended).

[Kevin Wilbanks]

Well, it's a little over 36 hours later now, and most of the pain is gone. It's only a mild sensation with swallowing now. I didn't end up going to the doctor. If there is some level of lingering pain that doesn't go away I will.

I got the email back from the head instructor. He claims that the choke I experienced is neither 'uncommon or illegal in judo or jujutsu'. He says that he has had the same experience several times, and that it usually takes a day or two to subside. Seems kind of surprising to me. With the way the guy was on top of me, he pulled up on one side of the lapel and leaned into the other as it was stretched across my trachea - it was so fast that I can't see how I could have tapped in time to avoid the damage. Maybe it's not technically illegal or banned, just kind of an asshole thing to do in friendly practice...

[bob_stra]

>I got the email back from the >head instructor. He claims that >the choke I experienced is >neither 'uncommon or illegal in >judo or jujutsu'.

Bullsh*t. It's one of *the* most common chokes. Not done often because it isn't all that effective and the counter is rather simple.

>He says that he has had the same >experience several times, and >that it usually takes a day or >two to subside.

IME that's true.

>Seems kind of surprising to me.

Assholes abound in grappling. I had my elbow popped on my very first night of BJJ. Too much machismo in someplaces, you know?

>an asshole thing to do in >friendly practice

Yep. Did you see the "oil and water" thread I started a while back?

[Kevin Wilbanks]

Yeah. It's too bad that so many grappling groups are apparently like that. The group I trained with before must have been a really good one, as there seemed to be a prevailing ethic of not being an asshole.

I guess writing off this Judo place was no loss. In addition to the incident, the other assistant instructor that taught the class wasn't a very good teacher - he lectured on a zillion details for up to ten minutes straight and left little time for practice, during which I couldn't remember a fraction of what he had talked about anyway. About half the students in the class were 'socially challanged' in that they mostly refused to acknowledge my presence and wore sullen stares. Much more of a sport atmosphere than budo. In general, I guess I found out everything I needed to know about that place. It's too bad, as I'm interested in the stand-up part of Judo. I think it could be a good complimentary practice to Aikido. Groundwork-wise, I think I'd rather just go for BJJ anyway, as the aims are less artificial. Pinning someone for 25 seconds is of no significance to me.

[bob_stra]

>It's too bad that so many >grappling groups are apparently >like that.

Yeah ;-(

>The group I trained with before >must have been a really good one

Indeed. Send them out this way, I could use their help ;-)

>I guess writing off this Judo >place was no loss.

Sound like it. You sure you didn't just catch them on a bad day?

>during which I couldn't remember >a fraction of what he had talked >about anyway.

Was this a beginners, seniors or open class?

>in that they mostly refused to >acknowledge my presence and wore >sullen stares.

They were sizing you up. Like I said in the oil thread, agressive practice leaves a kind of residue sometimes. A eagerness to whump the other guy. It's kind of dehumanizing.

>It's too bad, as I'm interested >in the stand-up part of Judo.

Please don't discount judo because of one idiot. There are things of beauty to be felt and seen in judo like no other. Ask around - perhaps someone on the Judo-L can recommend a good club in your area.

>I think I'd rather just go for >BJJ anyway, as the aims are less >artificial.

BJJ has its own artificialites.

>Pinning someone for 25 seconds is >of no significance to me.

If I can control you for 25 seconds, I can do *anything* to you on the ground. That's the thinking.