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Unregistered
11-20-2002, 02:57 PM
Hi everyone,
First of all, let me start by saying that I have no intention of making this a mud-slinging post, so don't ask for any details since I won't give them! Just want some advice in what has become a very stressful situation.

Question is: I've discovered the the chief teacher of my dojo (actually entire organization) uses drugs, and allegedly has supplied to students also. Supposedly this is common knowledge, but me (slow on the uptake, not much into the dojo gossip scene) just found out.

I feel really angry and betrayed about it, and that makes me want to address it. Admittedly, I have no proof. Confronting this person will mean leaving (or getting kicked out)...something I guess I'll be doing anyway. Probably also will have my rank stripped. It's also something that could have ramifications across the organization.

Or is it better to just walk away without saying anything, not disillusion people (assuming they care in the first place), keep my membership and rank, and just let it go?

I know at this point any action I take will be from that sense of disappointment, so I guess I'm looking for rational, objective opinions.

As I said, no more details are forthcoming, and I probably won't post again. If you have any thoughts or similar experiences with handling this kind of thing, I'd appreciate it.

Unregistered
11-20-2002, 03:17 PM
Why do you assume that if someone is not disillusioned by your teacher's behavior they do not care? Why do you take it upon yourself to be personally offended? What is stressful here? Is it because the information you have seems dangerous? Or is it because you feel responsible for this person? How have you been betrayed? Will this information really make you leave the dojo? I find that very odd, as if you believe Aikido is a stranger to difficulty in life. I think you confuse American laws regarding vice and Aikido practices. What will a genuine Bushi do in such a situation? Why do something? Perhaps you think that if you remain quiet you are giving tacit approval but why should a Bushi approve or dissapprove of anyone? Perhaps it is difficult to remain quiet, why should difficulty stop you? Perhaps it is difficult to express yourself in private with this person and this is why you write to a forum. If it were me I wouldn't make something where there was nothing, and I would handle what was with great care and sympathy. Probably I wouldn't bring it up, but if it was brought up by someone else I would be tactfully honest. Still, I don't see why you think you are the one in the difficult position.

Unregistered?
11-20-2002, 03:42 PM
What "DRUGS" does he/she use? Viagra, Zovirax, Prozac? Caffeine, Champagne, Wine, Single Malt, beer..? Heroin, Cocaine? Valium? Chocolate? Nicotine? LSD, peyote? Amphetamines? Anabolic steroids? Red Bull?

Marijuana????

it would seem that you are distressed about something that's not necessarily Aikido related.

Are you sayin that the the Dojo-cho a drug pusher?

How the did he/she get to be an exemplar Aikido practicioner?

maybe this might make you rethink your biases.

However, I belive that you are not compelled to belong to any Aikido dojo, nor are you compelled to take on the habits/vices of your fellow Aikidoka.

That aside, what is it exactly that dissapoints/stresses you out about this situation?

Unregistered
11-20-2002, 03:53 PM
Ok, that's what I needed. I know I'm reacting from my own bias. And I'm sure I've projected my own idealizations onto this person. I guess i do need to look into why this has affected me so much since that may or may not have anything to do with the situation at hand. If I do take some action I want it to be from a place of compassion instead of anger. The stress is my own, true enough..there isn't any reason why I should let someone else's foibles affect me one way or the other just because I've put them on an Aikido pedastel. I have the chance to have a lot of contact with this person so the best course of action may be to just express concern and ask if there's anything that I can do.

Thanks to both of you for a kick in the pants.

Unregistered
11-20-2002, 04:37 PM
"express concern and ask if there's anything that I can do."

again you are assuming drugs are bad. if he used alcohol and owned a liquor store would you have the same problem? is it only because it's illegal or is it because it doesn't flow with your beliefs. if the latter then replace using drugs with having some opinion that is opposite of your own (i think religion would work well). so now will you leave?

i think it's silly and childish.

Unregistered
11-20-2002, 04:42 PM
turn the bastard over to the authorities.

Unregistered
11-20-2002, 04:42 PM
anonymously, of course

Unregistered
11-20-2002, 05:18 PM
is it affecting practice? instruction? safety? anything?

I mean, are people showing up to class all blazed up or what?

If you're talking about hearsay, I'd ignore it.

aikido_fudoshin
11-20-2002, 09:38 PM
I think you should show concern for your sensei, and especially if hes pushing drugs on others. People use drugs, whether it be alcohol, marijauna, cocaine etc., to escape from reality. They either are dealing with problems in life that they cant handle or they are using because there are things about themselves they dont want to except and deal with. There is either an uncontrolable problem with nothing or no one to turn to, or they have a self esteem problem. Drugs are extremely deterimental to your health as everyone has seen either in people around them, the city they live in, or the many famous people whos deaths have set examples for all. If you dont realize that drugs are bad for you you've either got a problem or your just a plain idiot.

If your sensei is a good friend I suggest you try to help him out, if hes pushing drugs, report him. If he wants to screw up his own life, fine, but when he tries to push it on others it becomes a serious problem.

Unregistered
11-21-2002, 11:09 AM
IMHO, accept their humanness, get out of your owb disappointment that others don't live up to your idealized fantasyland, show compassion for the pain they must have for turning to drugs, and if it severely violates you code of ethics and it inteferes with training then you may need to train someplace else.

BTW: If my Sensei used drugs and supplied them to his students, I personally would be out the door.

Until again,

Lynn

Unregistered
11-21-2002, 11:50 AM
I think you've shown already that you can think and react positively. to some of the other comments, I'd say, well, escaping reality is one use of some drugs, though for example cigarettes won't take you very far. Some people take drugs to enhance performance, some people take drugs because of medical purposes, and some people take drugs for pleasure.

yeah, I can see how Viagra is about escaping reality ...

VegasJody
11-27-2002, 05:36 PM
Consider another viewpoint: The person or persons who have told you this are working to get your exact reaction i.e.: disillusionment and leaving. And they are working on others in the dojo.

This may or may not be the case. Either way, you need the truth from your sensei not just for yourself, but to protect your sensei and the dojo.

Unregistered
11-28-2002, 12:45 AM
Aikido is about example, for some the relative nature of modern ethics discounts the univerasl truths O'Sensei spoke about. And i don't believe the purple smoke had anything to do with drugs. The Question is: as an Aikidoka, can you harmonize with the situation and cause there to be peace Universally, either by action or by avoidance?

As for me I still debate about the juxdoposition of certain drugs and moral behavior as a fundamental question to the good of the enlightend spirit.

Meditate three times before a final verdict, and contemplate the founder's wishes.

Bill

mike lee
11-28-2002, 02:17 AM
Aikido is about example, for some the relative nature of modern ethics discounts the univerasl truths O'Sensei spoke about.

It's all in your mind.

:do:

Unregistered
11-28-2002, 02:56 AM
The One mind? of the buddists?

The mind of one? of D'cart?

The no mind? of mushin?

Supreme mind? of Christ?

Or mind's Eye? of Hollywood?

Bill

Genex
11-28-2002, 03:19 AM
What "DRUGS" does he/she use? Viagra, Zovirax, Prozac? Caffeine, Champagne, Wine, Single Malt, beer..? Heroin, Cocaine? Valium? Chocolate? Nicotine? LSD, peyote? Amphetamines? Anabolic steroids? Red Bull?

Marijuana????
Ludes man, you forgot the ludes! not to mention poppers and that new sh*t thats going round where they dip weed in embalming fluid with mint did you know that has really high levels of PCP's in them that'll seriously mess up your mind and your body fact.

btw bill when posting anonymously its always advisable not to sign your name at the bottom ;)

and as for your sensei, you need more info, if he's smoking pot does he have a medical condition? if so there's your answer, although there really isnt any exuse for supplying if its anything harder you need to go the the head of the federation and get this nipped in the bud, talk to someone you can trust who will look into this. and good gods to not go to the media with this or you'll destroy the organisation this does have very serious implications thats why you really need to get more info and then talk to a senior member of your organisation.

scantia est potentia

knowledge is power

pete

mike lee
11-28-2002, 03:44 AM
and good gods to not go to the media with this or you'll destroy the organisation this does have very serious implications thats why you really need to get more info and then talk to a senior member of your organisation.

I don't think that anyone who truly cared about their sensei or their aikido association would put this garbage on a public forum.

mike lee
11-28-2002, 03:46 AM
The One mind? of the buddists?

The mind of one? of D'cart?

The no mind? of mushin?

Supreme mind? of Christ?

Or mind's Eye? of Hollywood?

Bill

No — your mind, Bill.

Tim Griffiths
11-28-2002, 05:34 AM
I can just see a mat littered with used needles, condoms and bits of burnt tin foil. By the side of the mat a few comatose ukes are sprawled in pools of vomit. In a corner two dan grade are trying to have sex without taking off their hakamas. The picture of O-sensei has been edited to give him an enormous joint and a rastafarian hat. The sensei is sitting cross legged and naked in the center of the mat next to a huge bong with 'aiki' written on it. He says "Dudes, I can't get my head around teaching today, but I'll tell you what, its a lovely mat, eh"?

:freaky:

Tim

Unregistered
11-28-2002, 06:44 AM
yes my mind... but forgive me for thinking that i could hope to shed a different light on this subject without a juvinille poke with witless rancor, in such an estemed thread, I suppose the question IS too relative to wish away with silly notions of absolute truth, like the Agatsu principle, at which i will now leave this thread.

I signed as to leave some small association to my coment...

bill

Erik
11-28-2002, 12:00 PM
Maybe an organization like this needs to be destroyed?

Maybe all the people who have looked the other way, probably for years, could use a bit of a wake up call?

Maybe the dominating thought shouldn't be to protect the organization, sensei or shihan, but the people being put at risk by this person's actions?

Maybe we also have an obligation to our community and to our fellow students, particularly new students just starting out?

Erik
11-28-2002, 12:19 PM
Since I only have 15 minutes to edit posts, let me say that I do agree with talking to folks. All the better if it can be handled that way.

mattholmes
11-28-2002, 12:52 PM
To me, this seems to be a no-brainer. This does not, directly, have to do with "aiki" or "training" or any of the other things we lable to better make sense of what we are doing on the mat.

If all of that training does not come into play now, then why are we training?

My perspective: drug use is generally a harmful and negative influence in the lives of those who choose to use them, and people that do use drugs generally do so to avoid some part of their life/themselves. I have a problem with an instructor who condons this avoidance of self discovery.

I don't think drugs are inherently evil. But why bother to take the risks? Is that really how you want to spend your life? Taking instruction from someone who influences your life so much that you trust them to throwyour body around on a mat, when this person is apparently so afraid of themselves that they cannot accept with their pain? I believe you said that you did not, that you would be leaving the dojo. This is a fine option for you, but I argue that you have another responsibility. What about other people in your orginazation? I think that, as you have reportedly heard only hear-say, you should endeavor to find more information, and then to act with your gut.

Have compassion, but do not be an idiot. This is serious stuff, and your choices will have reaching effects; they affect not only you. Behave wisely. Be good. And do not take yourself too seriously.

Smile.

Matt

Nacho_mx
11-28-2002, 07:29 PM
Who is this Unregistered dude? Why can´t I add him to my ignore list?

P.D. I don´t trust him/her

Unregistered
12-01-2002, 11:06 PM
is aikido really a practical martial art?

Unregistered
12-01-2002, 11:10 PM
in my opinion aikido ia not practical as the attacks are not aligned with the reality of todays world, such as the mixed martial artists that are very competent boxers, kick boxers whose attack is not overcommitted as most aikido practitioners would prefer. combine this with strong wrestling/grappling skills and i think the average aikido practitioner would be at a loss! thoughts anyone?

Nacho_mx
12-01-2002, 11:23 PM
Somebody ban these troll...please

mike lee
12-02-2002, 03:07 AM
i think the average aikido practitioner would be at a loss! thoughts anyone?

I think the average wrestler or kick-boxer would be at a loss when I show up with a bokken and crack their cranium in half. Just my thoughts.

Jim ashby
12-02-2002, 03:25 AM
To paraphase Prof Quirrell in Harry Potter "TROLL, TROLL IN THE DUNGEON!".

Have fun.

Edward
12-02-2002, 04:04 AM
I think the issue about aikido's efficiency has been long out of date and pointless. The truth is we practice aikido because we enjoy it, not because we want to kick butts.

Kevin Wilbanks
12-02-2002, 07:51 AM
Back to the main topic: If the only 'drug' we're talking about here is marijuana, then I think the original unregistered, and all the other 'just say no' armchair psychologists need to get a grip. If you had any idea how widely used pot is, you'd probably have an anyeurism. Pot is used moderately and responsibly by people of every social class, and almost every job type - the proof is that they get their jobs done and you don't even know about it.

It's true that some people use it excessively, and this is usually associated with amotivational, 'loser' behavior, but in this case the behavior is the problem, not the fact that marijuana is the alleged cause.

In fact, to my mind, in all situations, the behavior is always the place to look. If you have no problem with a person's behavior as you and those you have known have experienced it, then looking into their private lives to find some reason to condemn them is wrong. When the gov't does this, we (should) call it an unacceptable invasion of privacy, yet somehow through two decades of propaganda, people have come to accept the notion of drug testing and prying into people's personal lives as common and benign. That little triumph of 'the war on drugs' was probably the single biggest erosion of the American ideal of freedom in 200 years.

Now we have 'Homeland Security' in which crimes become more of a crime if you are found to have expressed certain kind of thoughts, not to mention PC-related thought crimes. Not to mention encouragement by the gov't to spy upon one's neighbor. Keep it up y'all. Keep flaunting your high-horse, ignorant moralism. Keep doubting people who have dealt with you squarely. Keep peeking and prying into their private lives with suspicious agenda. With a population so eager to be complicit in its own downfall, who needs terrorists?

Williamross77
12-03-2002, 04:23 AM
Well I returned.

Yes Aikido is a FORMIDABLE martial art as I and some of the Police Officers I have taught have used it to quite an addiquit degree. (I used to to bounce out roudy individuals from a few bars in my life)I think that this is answered in another thread about NHB competitions. There are oppertunities for well trained individuals to find holes but that is why i cross train too.

I am certainly not the best I have ever trained with(infact i believe i am the worst), but the late Bill Sosa Sensei made a full believer out of me on several of our training sessions. I have a long way to go, but i know i am better off for practicing The Way .

As for drug use,I ment that the moral question is more about the effect and the affect it has on the dojo and the students. I also believe that training comes along better without it, as i tried many many years ago to reach where i am getting now, dabeling with it. but renounced it years ago as I grew into adulthood. If one can keep it in one's home and like an above post implied, no harm done save to the individual, but the Chief Instructor is obligated to live a life of extream moral weight, as i know i have read O'Sensei thought. (plese don't ask where) i guess i could reread the thirty or so books on the art i have jumped into over the past 11 years. But i swear i read it!

Of course unless i was HIGH then who knows!LOL! Just a joke.

Bruce Baker
12-03-2002, 08:04 AM
Since there is not identification of the said drugs, and there is only a cursory description of the situation, this post is but a shadow of someone's imagination.

As for this "Troll" comment ...

BAG IT SLIME BALLS!!!

I am getting sick and tired of this childish kindergarden behavior.

What if there really is a problem because general popuation is smoking/ popping / or imbibing unusual amounts of legal or illegal drugs that is affecting their behavior, but not out side of normal tolerance laws of society?

That is the frailty of humanity, we don't always live up to the morals we espouse, do we?

Many of us have met those teachers who in younger days lived lives like Sammy Davis Jr, who would burn the candle at both ends/ in the middle / and up around the sides, too. Great teachers, but then they were not the Dali Lama either.

Maybe that is why more than 95% of people who practice Aikido have no clue what O'Sensei was trying to enlighten us to, even though he, himself, didn't always know how to put it into words.

Here are some simple words.

Stop whining about how something does not work.

Go try it! Learn its secrets, and stop being so ignorant!

You already have my opinion of name calling without plumbing the depth of the humanities frailties......

Or is "Aiki" only for that hour or so you practice in the dojo?

(My apologies for offending those passing through, but then I didn't take my drugs this morning .... Doooh!)

Williamross77
12-03-2002, 09:39 AM
not bas at all!

Williamross77
12-03-2002, 09:40 AM
i ment bad at all!

Bruce Baker
12-06-2002, 09:27 AM
Oh? I thought you quoting "Popeye the Sailor" from the Sinbad the sailor cartoon?

While we are on that subject, let's all sing the Sinbad the Sailor song!

1 .... 2 .... 3 .... " Whoos the ...

REK
12-06-2002, 01:22 PM
Back to the main topic: If the only 'drug' we're talking about here is marijuana, then I think the original unregistered, and all the other 'just say no' armchair psychologists need to get a grip. If you had any idea how widely used pot is, you'd probably have an anyeurism. Pot is used moderately and responsibly by people of every social class, and almost every job type - the proof is that they get their jobs done and you don't even know about it.

It's true that some people use it excessively, and this is usually associated with amotivational, 'loser' behavior, but in this case the behavior is the problem, not the fact that marijuana is the alleged cause.
Just add bit of kerosene to the bonfire, NIDA has funded some research that finds that marijuana use is in fact impairing, and in an insidious way. Some of the myriad of chemicals found in the tetrahydrocannabinols have a remarkably high affinity for the lipids that are concentrated in the hippocampus, which for you smokers out there is the part of your brain that helps encode long-term memory. It is amusing to me that some of the most ardent defenders of pot smoking argue that there is no detrimental effect, when it may be likely that they can't remember how sharp they used to be. So they have no idea what they've lost :D

To the issue of what to do - follow your heart. If you don't like it, don't train there. Obviously opinions are too diverse to arrive at a single truth regarding what you "should" do.

Rob

Judd
12-06-2002, 01:47 PM
I agree with you wholeheartedly. If people want to burn chemically-laced dried plants and inhale the fumes, despite all the harmful effects, I say let 'em. Just call it poetic justice.

Kevin Wilbanks
12-07-2002, 02:47 AM
REK,

That's the first time I've heard any strong claim about long-term memory impairment from marijuana use. Are you sure you've interpreted the study properly? Can you cite the specific study and/or give details (e.g., was it a controlled, double-blind study with a placebo group, etc... or field survey, exactly what memory impairments were shown? just showing that chemicals are received somewhere in the brain signifies nothing in itself). Even assuming that NIDA is not a propaganda/agenda driven source (perhaps a big assumption, as the US government has been putting out distorted anti-drug propaganda on illegal/scapegoat drugs for decades), this alleged effect is not even listed by them on their website.

In any case, as long as any drug cannot be shown to cause murderous ramages, I think adult people ought to be free to decide for themselves whether or not to use it. At the very least, the laws against a drug should not be a greater threat to their well-being than the drug itself, which is an Orwellian absurdity that many seem comfortable with. To me the point is about freedom and privacy. I don't accept any paternalistic justifications for the government, employers, or nosy do-gooders prying into the private lives of people who behave responsibly and honorably in their dealings with others and society.

REK
12-07-2002, 04:41 PM
Kevin,

I'm sorry, I don't have that citation. The information was presented to me during a conference on chemical dependency and brain injury - I will look it up for you and email it to you.

I will note that I do so at your request, and not with the intent to change your mind about your stance on the use of marijuana. I believe what I do and respect your right to believe what you do. My concern is not with one's morality, but with one's clarity of mind and body during training. What you do off the mat is none of my affair. When you step on the mat to lay hands on me, it is.

Rob

Kevin Wilbanks
12-11-2002, 09:32 PM
My concern is not with one's morality, but with one's clarity of mind and body during training. What you do off the mat is none of my affair. When you step on the mat to lay hands on me, it is.
I'm not sure how this speaks to the problem which I am addressing. If you mean that you will judge my clarity via my actions on the mat, then I agree. If you are saying that this implies that you need to know whether I'm stoned before you train with me... even that's a little grey to me. If you mean that you need to know whether I was stoned last night or last week to judge my clarity, then I say no way. If I can train safely and proficiently after taking a dozen giant bong hits, why should it matter to anyone? If I can't, then the fact that I'm not training responsibly should be the issue, not digging into my blood stream or personal life. I guess I am saying that the clarity or murkiness of my mind and body aren't really your business, even when I'm on the mat, only my behavior is.

Unregistered
12-12-2002, 01:34 PM
but with one's clarity of mind and body during training
how do you judge on that issue? do you always practice with perfect people, in the peak of their mind and bodies' ability?

personal responsibility and trust are very important, but not so much on nage trusting uke as nage and uke trusting themselves to do the right thing.

behavior is one standard, but I know of one high level shihan who often teaches in spite of sickness, and his spiritual battle every time he steps on the mat , to overcome the weakness of his body/mind is both awesome and inspiring. i understand his ethos is such that he will take a hit if unable to do technique rather than risk uke, loss of face embarassment and all.

thanks GOD for diversity

Bruce Baker
12-16-2002, 10:16 AM
Drugs will mess up your life, even if they do expand your mind, been there, done that, do you really want to know about it?

I have been to Jamaica and opened a five gallon pail of the Ganja, rolled it in a lunch bag, done the Cheech and Chong thing for a couple of weekends.

I have visited the halls of Timothy Leary.

I have consumed alcohol until I got drunk by drinking a cup of water, near alcohol poisoning.

Lucky me, I gave up everything but alcohol and tobacco in my early twenties, but it took over ten years to totally get the last vestiges of drugs stored in my fat cells gone, gone, gone so I could be physically free of drug recurrances.

You want to some the wacky weed? I can't stop you. Only injury, death, or your own will power can stop you.

Just don't go crying about your mood swings, your failures, you inability to cope with the problems of life in a more efficient manner, there ain't no love lost for you.

Of course, there is the other end of the scale ... the legal prescription drugs that the middleaged, and old aged take in an attempt to placate the ills of living a hard life, or illnesses that come to visit.

You want drugs?

Wait a few years. All the drugs you could ever want ... or need. Just get depressed, or slightly ill, some syndrome, or any classification of illness and you are set for life!

Do they limit your physical skills, or mental processes, or just the opposite?

Well ... drugs are supposed to be supports for your physical and mental wellbeing while your body is allowed to repair itself. Trying to maintain this well being while creating pain and damage to your body, either damaging the physical body or hindering the mental processes, takes quite a while to repair.

Is that why I don't think like you? Drugs in the late teen and early twenties that warped my thinking processes to consider the many eastern ways over worshiping the Christian doctrines of the Bible thumping, wife swapping, snake handleing, television begging, and Catholic priests who perform lude acts upon young boys?

Now, if you take into consideration the actual morality over the preached morality, we just have to laugh at ourselves.

Aikido practice with a drugged up, mind numbed partner? Nope. Go sit and watch the class. You is gonna hurt yourself or others.

But isn't that also some of the fears that I see carried into some of the forums that some techniques don't work against drugged up crazys?

Changed my mind. Get back on the mat and attack me, you drugged up crazy-you!

Oh. Don't worry sensei. I will be gentle with this drugged up crazy. I wouldn't want the dojo to incur a law suit, or have a death/serious injury that closed the dojo.

What?

Ok.

Off the mat ... drugged up crazy person.

Bruce Baker
12-16-2002, 10:23 AM
Seriously though, my present illness is so much more debilatating than I thought it would be, and the real danger of drugs is the loss of judgement, not so much the physical manifestations. I have the physical restrictions, but you must have the mental skills to properly judge not only safety, but be able to make decisions based upon the normal interations of other practitioners.

Little things, like not throwing a spinning back kick that knocks out your partner, or ripping their are to shreds with a real Kotegaeshi, or maybe sweep the knees so hard you injure someone for life ... these and lots of other bad choice scenarios.

Seriously ... isn't that what we are talking about?

achilleus
12-16-2002, 10:48 AM
I'm siding with Kevin on more than one point in this conversation. And since I think he's represented what I think already I'll leave my comment to this.

Anyone tauting new research on marijuana effects must either have something to sell or not know the difference. There simply is no study being conducted that can accurately account for neurochemical changes and marijuana. Its easier and cheaper to get a pound of quality cocaine for behavioural studies than it is to acquire a nickel bag of pot. Researchers genuinely interested in establishing facts about marijuana have stince the 70s had three choices: get what the governement will let you have (low grade leaf resin from secret hash farms in Mississippi which you can't get any subject to willingly consume), go out on the street and risk your public and professional reputation by getting it the way everyone else does, or fake the results based on presupposed conditions or similar/analogous biochemical responses to other drugs.

"It is amusing to me that some of the most ardent defenders of pot smoking argue that there is no detrimental effect, when it may be likely that they can't remember how sharp they used to be."

I think this is extremely cycnical and I hope the author isn't a researcher because its this kind of bias thats left the doors wide open to the kind of hypocritical legislation that prevents adults from making reasonable decisions.

What is truly amusing is that people condemn a plant for possibly hastening the eventual memory loss indemic to the human condition (sorry, the hippocampus dones't last forever) after a good nights drinking their innards away.

Please don't suggest any possible negative effects of marijauana - its not a good enough reason - alcohol will always be a far nastier vice.

just my budding behavioural neuroscience opinion,

DA

(thats dopamine if your neuropsychopharmaphunky)

REK
12-16-2002, 01:25 PM
Turn this on its head. I don't deny you your powers of self-determination. Smoke if you want. I am not in the business of trying to force my opinion on you. But answer this:

Why do you use at all?

The internal need or desire for a chemically-induced altered state of conscious is suggestive. But I don't want to make any assumptions. Just give me a few good reasons why one would want to use.

Oh - and don't worry, I am not a researcher.

achilleus
12-16-2002, 02:35 PM
Turn this on its head. I don't deny you your powers of self-determination. Smoke if you want. I am not in the business of trying to force my opinion on you. But answer this:

Why do you use at all?

The internal need or desire for a chemically-induced altered state of conscious is suggestive. But I don't want to make any assumptions. Just give me a few good reasons why one would want to use.

Oh - and don't worry, I am not a researcher.
To eliminate any assumptions you may be operating on - I am no longer a "user" of the drug in question. I am a researcher (albeit on a brief bill paying hiatus from PhD program) in behavioural neuroscience. The research just doesn't support most of your opinions/prejudices. In fact, the prevelant point of view is that using marijuana (specifically, this does not apply to heroin nor cocaine) is no more destructive and no less preferential than eating chocolate.

So I could ask you why you eat chocolate and neither of us could hold a moral 'high' ground over the other for our reasons.

Again, why do anything? the oxidizing effects of beathing contribute to more cellular destruction than a few years of pot brownies.

Unlike alcohol, marijuana has an attached social stigma tightly connected to the political right. Remember, we tried prohibition on alcohol before. Unfortunately, big brother got his hands on marijuana early on.

Another way of looking at this is, what legitimacy does your question have?

What answer for doing something can a person give that would come close to satisfying?

Would you accept a preferential answer: "I like it."

Medical: "It helps reduce the pain of the drug coctail my 12 doctors have prescribed me for AIDS/cancer treatment."

loony: "cuz its kewl, dude."

religious: "as a practicing religious for 30 years in obscure aesthetic forms I have come to the conclusion that salvation necessitates mild halucinations."

Behaviourally, people come to a drug with a propensity for something. Addiction, lethargy/apathy, depression, etc. Even alcohol will activate these predispositions.

But to address your final thought, "The internal need or desire for a chemically-induced altered state of conscious is suggestive" - of course! its fascinating! haven't you ever thumped your head after realizing the latent power and ultimate individuality of your mind in its self creative potential? We talk about the meaning of "our dreams" as if we dreamed them. Sorry, the mind was recreating reality for its own amusement - it doesn't need us anymore. With enough unprocessed, preconscious imagery and sense-memory of the world our mind can recreate it in any fashion it chooses. Oftentimes scary, sometimes thought provoking and occasionally genius, our minds are strangers to us. I am not trying to over-romanticize the "Altered States" phenomenon - but I do recognize that there are many paths to understanding; some of them are pleasurable, fun and sometimes the best reason for going on the ride is because we want to and we have the choice.

Besides, Behavioural Neuroscience begins with the supposition that there are mechanisms for behaviour - and as researchers we try to find those mechanisms to better understand people and how we think. Ever wondered why the brain has naturally occuring cannibinoid receptors? And that these receptors are found in great abundance along the mesodopaminergic pathway (source of pleasure and happy thoughts)?

Naturally occuring cannibinoid receptors!

Why smoke marijuana?

Because our brains are hardwired for it!

DA

achilleus
12-16-2002, 03:10 PM
I reported in a previous email that the Government hash farms were in Mississippi; in retrospect I cannot recall if it is Miss. or Alabama. When I tried to look up the email sent to me from my department I found a tag in which it had been deleted from my ISPs server, "With love, Att. Gen. Ashcroft".

(mucho sarcasm)

But, I would like to state that I do not advocate aikidoka-tokin' up before practice, nor parents getting lit before driving the kids to soccer games. I do not think that life will wind up less interesting or somehow inadequate without the occasional bong, but I do think that there are more choices people need to be grilled on rather than what plant they prefer to injest (why do you prefer basil to oregano?).

peace - with or without the pot,

DA

Unregistered
12-16-2002, 06:20 PM
I thought Aikido is about becoming a "blank slate". Acting on things without making assumptions or judgments and that's all I've been reading in this thread. Drugs or drug use are not inherently good or bad. Many of the drugs that are illegal today (I'm referring to the USA, because different things are illegal in different places) have been in use for thousands of years and have only been looked down upon for the last hundred years or so.

Just for the record drug use is not harmful or unhealthy drug abuse is. Abuse of anything is for that matter. If his Sensei is breaking the law or engaged in behavior that makes him uncomfortable he should find help for his Sensei or another dojo depending on the situation.

This aikidoka needs more information. If he truly likes where he is training and respects his Sensei then he must ask him without assumption and judgment to find the truth. You don't show someone respect by avoiding or ignoring a situation or behavior that bothers you. If he is a good teacher he will appreciate your candor.

Bruce Baker
12-20-2002, 07:55 AM
Do you smoke tobacco?

Do you drink Alcohol?

Stop it for a year and see if there is a change in both your physical as well as mental capacity.

The body's dependancy upon drugs, even mild drugs, will take anywhere from six months to a year to allow the cravings or effects from chemical dependancy to abate.

Proven studies of needing a cigarette to think, or produce endorfins to stimulate the brain were the conclusive evidence in the mid 1990s to my proven experience of having smoked and inhaled, unlike some politicians.

Nicotine to lesson the craving?

AA to help you through your troubled time "One day at a time"?

Pot will mess up your brain like scrambled eggy weggys on a hot skillet?

Stop all your drugs for a year and see if you are different both physically and mentally.

Otherwise, if your brain is wacky, how can you even have a conversation in this forum without taking a drink, getting a hit off the pipe, or lighting up that tobacco to get those thinking endorfins going?

Unregistered
12-20-2002, 09:49 AM
Dear friend, you speak of disillusionment as if it were a bad thing. One should welcome such a thing, because living in an illusion is living in a deception. Living in a deception leads to all kinds of problems, like making bad decisions. And I for one, prefer to live in and react to, reality. Yours in aiki, MBrown, Cabot, AR.

achilleus
12-20-2002, 12:09 PM
The body's dependancy upon drugs, even mild drugs, will take anywhere from six months to a year to allow the cravings or effects from chemical dependancy to abate.
Bruce, this is just completely wrong.

Even a hardline medical model of physiological dependence and addiction contradicts what you have said.

This is the difference between opinion and the facts as we know them. I am very happy that you have found peace in a life no without drugs and that you feel that you are better off. That is a something to be happy about and congratulations for accomplishing a difficult feat.

BUT, that does not confirm the suppositions you are making. You cannot always leap from the specific to the general in that way.

The comment about pot scrambling your brains is just tripe -I'm sorry, but there is no other way of contradicting that.

Again, I think it makes more sense for people to live there lives and make their own decisions like you have reported doing rather than making up nonsense to spook people who don't know any better (yet).

DA

PS

drugs are not the only contributor to a whacky brain - some people are born with them!

:)

kendo52
12-20-2002, 12:16 PM
So that i may better understand you - please define reality.

mike lee
12-20-2002, 12:38 PM
Have someone whack you in the shin with a baseball bat. That feeling that you have immediately afterward — well that's reality!

kendo52
12-20-2002, 12:43 PM
Are you Anonymous User?

As to the shin are you telling me that pain is reality? Or a feeling of pain is reality? Reality is a feeling? Please clear it up for me.

mike lee
12-21-2002, 02:51 AM
When your shin is hit with a baseball bat, you'll know.

reality

SYLLABICATION: re·al·i·ty

NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. re·al·i·ties

1. The quality or state of being actual or true.

2. One, such as a person, an entity, or an event, that is actual: “the weight of history and political realities” (Benno C. Schmidt, Jr.).

3. The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence.

4. That which exists objectively and in fact: Your observations do not seem to be about reality.

Kevin Wilbanks
12-21-2002, 06:39 AM
Gawd. It sure doesn't take long for a thread to degenerate into utter tripe. I used to have a philosophy professor who explicitly promised a big 'F' to anyone silly enough to reference the dictionary as a repository of truth. Can't you just see it:

Socrates: "So, young Plato, today we are going to enjoin a debate on the nature of piety."

Plato: "Hey, why don't we just look it up in the dictionary."

Socrates: "Dohh! You mean I could have just bought a dictionary! I never thought of that. What have I been doing with my life?"

mike lee
12-21-2002, 06:57 AM
Gawd. It sure doesn't take long for a thread to degenerate into utter tripe

What a noble contribution!

Jeffrey A. Fong
12-21-2002, 10:43 AM
Ahh yes, the old saw, "drugs or drug use are not inherently bad..." Indeed there are problems, regardless of whether the amount used reflects "casual" or "dedicated professional" use. The problem generated by these discussions is that a determination of the pros and cons of "drug" use is not born solely out of moral reflection or recitation of incomplete research data.

Having said that, one is forced to make certain decisions about the value of an activity in order to avoid the friendly but ultimately disingenuous feel good qualities of relativism.

With respect to drug use, consider the following:

1) Obviously, drugs vary widely in their composition, effect and use - but seriously, does anyone out there think "recreational" use of methamphetamine represents sound phyisiological and psychological practice?

2) The question, "why won't you train with a guy (or gal) who smokes pot once in a while. After all, they go to school, work, etc, just you and me" is misleading because it clouds the issue. We are not judging a person's moral character, but rather, the effect of a chemical on one's behavior. The more accurate question is, would you want to practice with someone who is high? Do you want to have someone who is drinking only "recreationally" performing neurosurgery or evaluating the physical or emotional abilities of special needs children. With respect to my PhD behavioral neuroscientist colleague (I am a Licensed Psychologist in public mental health), while there are currently no conclusive data of long term impairments resulting from marijuana use, there are, however, ample data citing statistically significant and functionally meaningful deficits in cognitive functioning when people are high. Nothing moral about that.

3) In as much as I am a true fan of everything in moderation, it is my experience, having served years both in the community and in inpatient settings, that people have an uncanny tendency to abuse/take advantage of/feel inexorably drawn to tickle their synapses when they don't need to because it feels good - unfortunately, this results in chronic patterns of abuse and often dependence. The drug user is usually the last to know the impact of their use; when they comment, "none of my friends have complained," they are usually relying upon the judgement of fellow drug users - how's that for a reliable sample of reality?

So, is the answer an "Orwellian" type of personal supervision and a further tightening of our moral belts. HELL no! I don't know the answer to that. However, I do hope that people can assess this issue with a more full appreciation of the data and less social, personal hysteria. The Tao is found through clarity of vision, and I believe that is not enhanced with drug use.

Kevin Wilbanks
12-21-2002, 11:05 AM
As far as #2 goes, I would probably rather not train with someone who was high, but if the information wasn't volunteered, and I didn't know any different, what's the difference to me? I have trained with many people that weren't high who were absent minded, dangerously uncoordinated, or just plain sadistic bastards out to prove something. I'd take most of the partners not in those categories stoned over the people in those categories any day. The bottom line remains: judge people by their actual observed behavior, not specualtion about their blood chemistry or thought content. If a person trains high and the effects are significant enough to be a danger, their behavior will reflect that, and decisions can be made based on the behavior.

Jeffrey A. Fong
12-21-2002, 08:04 PM
Kevin, I agree with you. My comments were primarily geared towards individuals making sound decisions regarding their own use. Note, however, there is a distinct difference between innate personal characteristics, such as "clumsiness" (of which I personally have an abundance), and the elective characteristics one acquires with substance use.

Best regards.

Kevin Wilbanks
12-21-2002, 09:47 PM
Note, however, there is a distinct difference between innate personal characteristics, such as "clumsiness" (of which I personally have an abundance), and the elective characteristics one acquires with substance use.
In terms of training safety, there may be a distinction, but there is no difference, which is my entire point. I don't understand why you and other party-line toe-ers need to keep brininging it up, if not as a pretext for eroding privacy. If someone is going to fall on me or tear my hand off, I don't care why, I just don't want them to do it. If you are hazardously clumsy, and someone else is moderately competent while on crack, I'll take the guy on crack.

Jeffrey A. Fong
12-25-2002, 12:04 PM
Again, to assert the merits of drug use as solely reflecting a "relative" matter is naive and disingenuous. The relative effect ("I didn't hurt anyone") of drug use is only one criterion by which a behavior is evaluated. Suggesting an individual can be "competent" while on crack is indicative of a scarey lack of knowledge about drugs like this and their effect on an individual's physiology, ability to think, act and feel - this is both an individual problem and a social dillemma.

Unlike "klutziness," drug use is an elective, counfounding variable, and the true spirit of Aiki is not served by blending with this strange form of self-absorption.

Again, my assertion is not a call for invasion of anyone's privacy. In fact, my whole argument has been based upon self examination and a willingness to consider that drug use poses very real personal and interpersonal consequences. To pretend otherwise is an call for ignorance.

Kevin Wilbanks
12-25-2002, 05:38 PM
Suggesting an individual can be "competent" while on crack is indicative of a scarey lack of knowledge about drugs like this and their effect on an individual's physiology, ability to think, act and feel...

Oh really? I spent years reading everything I could about every conceivable way to get high, and for years I tried everything I could get my hands on, including freebased cocaine, which is basically the same as crack. I have also known people personally who have done more than just experiment with crack. Leaping to conclusions about the state of my knowledge seems a bit hasty.

I think it is unlikely that someone could use crack responsibly for more than a short period of time, but it is certainly not impossible. Some people can use almost any drug without becoming addicted. Some can become addicted to as mild a form of stimulation as shopping.

I have read accounts of advanced meditators/yogis who can take massive doses of hallucinogens and demonstrate no effects whatsoever. People in very different cultures are able to incorporate drugs we think of as fearsome and dangerous - even cocaine - into their lives without becoming self or other destructive.

Drugs don't cause highs, minds do. Drugs merely trigger them. Contrary to what you say, I think the desire to get high in various ways is perfectly natural. You say people don't 'need to'. So what? If everyone kept to only what they strictly 'needed', life would be very dull... in fact, humans would probably be extinct by now. Actually, I think most of the priorities and paradigms of contemporary mental health are screwed up, but that's a larger debate.

Every person's response to, and disposition towards any drug is different. How destructive and horrible the drug is has more to do with how the use is framed in the person's life than anything to do with the purported evil, bogeyman qualities you believe inhere in them. It's true that some drugs are trickier to deal with than others, but no outcomes are cast in stone.

In fact, as someone involved with Aikido, you should be familiar with the dynamics of how demonization and attempts to suppress by force actually make that which is suppressed stronger, bigger, more important - a disposition of enmity tends to facilitate self-fulfilling prophecies.

mike lee
12-26-2002, 02:38 AM
Suggesting an individual can be "competent" while on crack is indicative of a scarey lack of knowledge about drugs ...

It's also indicative of someone who doesn't have a clear understanding about the purpose of a dojo.

opherdonchin
12-26-2002, 09:56 AM
What do you mean, Mike? I didn't understand.

Kevin Wilbanks
12-26-2002, 03:32 PM
Good luck Opher. Don't strain yourself. Looks like just another smug drive-by to me.

Jeffrey A. Fong
12-26-2002, 05:12 PM
It is unfortunate that this is such a personally provocative topic of discussion for some. Once again, this is not about judging people or championing institutional restrictions on personal choice or hindering personal growth and individuality.

Having an unbiased, objectively based appreciation of how some chemicals can affect people, and how many folks easily lose track while experimenting or "doing research" should pose a warning sign to all. Having a background in cross cultural psychology, as well as being a person of color, I feel that I can safely say that such caution is held by people regardless of their religious or cultural context.

Kevin Wilbanks
12-26-2002, 08:00 PM
Having an unbiased, objectively based appreciation of how some chemicals can affect people, and how many folks easily lose track while experimenting or "doing research" should pose a warning sign to all. Having a background in cross cultural psychology, as well as being a person of color, I feel that I can safely say that such caution is held by people regardless of their religious or cultural context.
When all else fails, try plying an argument from authority, setting yourself up as the authority? Pretty weak. If you're serious, and you really think you have acheived an "unbiased, objectively-based" viewpoint, then it appears there is no basis for further discussion. Sadly, I run into this sort of thing a lot. It's too bad universities and colleges don't have more rigorous philosophy requirements.

I'm also glad to say that your last statement is false, even within the history of contemporary 'western' culture. If everyone were truly so staid, unadventurous, and 'cautious', our lives would be unrecognizably impovrished by the lack of generations of artists, musicians, poets, entrepreneurs, dreamers, inventors, and iconoclasts of every sort. Recklessness is the stuff the future is made of. I get the feeling if establishment psychology types have their way, our future will be very dull, and humans will go the way of the do-do bird.

mike lee
12-28-2002, 02:39 AM
I've heard that artists, musicians, poets, entrepreneurs, dreamers, inventors, and iconoclasts of every sort are all headed to Jacksonville, Florida — the new risk-taking center of the universe.

Jeffrey A. Fong
12-28-2002, 09:14 AM
"Establishment" 0 Martyrs 1

Kevin Wilbanks
12-28-2002, 10:58 AM
I've heard that artists, musicians, poets, entrepreneurs, dreamers, inventors, and iconoclasts of every sort are all headed to Jacksonville, Florida — the new risk-taking center of the universe.
So, when my Dad told me he had terminal metastatic colorectal cancer and he wanted me to come down and be with him for the end of his life, I should have said "Too bad, old man, I'm goin' to New York City, where the action is!"?

If they weren't such an obvious expression of lazy arrogance, your ad hominem drive-bys might actually be annoying. Unlike Opher, you won't find me wasting much energy trying to interpret what you say, or even paying much attention to your existence henceforward. Continue with your little Chihuahua antics as you see fit, you're now on my unofficial 'ignore list'.

Unregistered
12-29-2002, 05:50 PM
If you have a brain tumor, with slim odds at successful removal, would you really feel OK that your neurosurgeon used cocaine, or marajuana, or both? Regularly or intermittently? That month, that week, 10 minutes before your surgery? Or how about the cardiothoracic surgeon due to operate on your mother, or your child? Or the pilot flying you to the next seminar, hey, if he knows he's OK to fly (actually) while flying (metaphorically) then really, are you the one to disagree?

We know who the beginners are. We know who the clumsy people are. It is the intermittently, unexpectedly impaired (from legal or illegal substances) that can kill you. Literally.

Kevin Wilbanks
12-29-2002, 07:30 PM
If you have a brain tumor, with slim odds at successful removal, would you really feel OK that your neurosurgeon used cocaine, or marajuana, or both? Regularly or intermittently? That month, that week, 10 minutes before your surgery? Or how about the cardiothoracic surgeon due to operate on your mother, or your child? Or the pilot flying you to the next seminar, hey, if he knows he's OK to fly (actually) while flying (metaphorically) then really, are you the one to disagree?

We know who the beginners are. We know who the clumsy people are. It is the intermittently, unexpectedly impaired (from legal or illegal substances) that can kill you. Literally.
"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of Tyrants; it is the Creed slaves."

-William Pitt

mike lee
12-30-2002, 03:18 AM
So, when my Dad told me he had terminal metastatic colorectal cancer and he wanted me to come down and be with him for the end of his life, I should have said "Too bad, old man, I'm goin' to New York City, where the action is!"?

If my father were dying, I think I would spend every possible minute with him. Somehow, I don't think I would have much time or emotional energy for discussing trivia on AikiWeb. But hey — that's just me.

akiy
12-30-2002, 09:41 AM
Hi folks,

It looks like this thread has moved into a non-aikido subject. I'll most likely be moving this thread into the "Open Discussions" section soon.

Also, please remember that the first rule of the AikiWeb Forums is, "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forums members with respect." This applies whether you are posting anonymously or not.

-- Jun

Erik Jögimar
09-06-2007, 04:50 PM
I'm cheating and have only read first page, due to lack of time, but i think that if people want to mess themselves up privately - go for it. But when they start going high to the dojo, teach and learn that way then it IS a problem. Talk to your sensei, privately, and if it doesnt work take it further - aka authorities. People can and will get hurt sooner or later.

jeep
09-08-2007, 04:48 AM
You're about 5 years too late for this discussion judging from the dates of the original posts. Still It would be interesting to see if the original contributors have changed their views on drugs over this period of time.
Anyway just passing through..............

concerned student
09-08-2007, 10:00 AM
HI, I just wanted to add my own comment here. As you know, sad as it is, Aikido combined with drug use seems to be common. I have been dealing with just that issue of late. I've been an student of Aikido since about mid June of this year. I really love it. There are however, things that have been happening that concern me. A lot of the higher-ranking Deshis as well as the Sensei have a habit of smoking pot before class. And please, I HAVE seen this happen many times. It worries me a lot. Not only because pot is illegal, but more because it puts everyone at risk for injury. I am still a white belt, and about 2 weeks ago, I was sparring with a student a couple belts above me. Mind you, I have no problem doing this IF the persons in question are in complete control of their faculties. I was practicing Ne Waza with this person, and they got me into koto Gaeshi, but instead of stopping at the point where I could just feel it, they continued to the point where I actually felt something give in my shoulder. I returned to practice two days later, and told them of the injury, asking them to only use my left hand in practice. They didn't listen, or even slow down. That is a huge problem at my dojo. They have no concept of what slow down means. Obviously, im not going to be as fast as some of the higher students, and I shouldnt be at this point. I need to learn proper technique first. That night (Wed) I was working through the releases with one of the higher students. He kept going through them fast and putting way too much energy behind them. It got o the point, where as we were going through one of the last releases, I lost my balance from the speed of his move, and got dropped right into a window frame, landing on the same shoulder as I had hurt earlier. The sensei didn't even know what had happened until I sent him an email the next day, even with me telling the student very loudly to slow down.

A concerned student

Neil Mick
09-08-2007, 12:06 PM
HI, I just wanted to add my own comment here. As you know, sad as it is, Aikido combined with drug use seems to be common.

No...I "don't know"...that Aikido combined with drug use "seems to be common."

I have been dealing with just that issue of late. I've been an student of Aikido since about mid June of this year. I really love it.

So, you've been a student...for what? 3 months? And you make a blanket statement about aikido, like THAT??

Sorry, but I've been a student of Aikido for 22+ years. I make a point of travelling to as many different dojos, with different affiliations, as I can. In all my travels (in and out of the US), I have NEVER come across a dojo where someone was training under the influence.

If I did, I'd imagine that said inebriate would be shown the door.

There are however, things that have been happening that concern me. A lot of the higher-ranking Deshis as well as the Sensei have a habit of smoking pot before class. And please, I HAVE seen this happen many times.

Uh huh...sure you have.

It worries me a lot. Not only because pot is illegal, but more because it puts everyone at risk for injury. I am still a white belt, and about 2 weeks ago, I was sparring with a student a couple belts above me.

"Sparring?" Fess up: you've never really practiced aikido, have you?

Mind you, I have no problem doing this IF the persons in question are in complete control of their faculties. I was practicing Ne Waza with this person, and they got me into koto Gaeshi, but instead of stopping at the point where I could just feel it, they continued to the point where I actually felt something give in my shoulder. I returned to practice two days later, and told them of the injury, asking them to only use my left hand in practice. They didn't listen, or even slow down. That is a huge problem at my dojo. They have no concept of what slow down means.

If this is even 1/2 true (which I doubt), then you need to find another dojo.

Obviously, im not going to be as fast as some of the higher students, and I shouldnt be at this point. I need to learn proper technique first. That night (Wed) I was working through the releases with one of the higher students. He kept going through them fast and putting way too much energy behind them. It got o the point, where as we were going through one of the last releases, I lost my balance from the speed of his move, and got dropped right into a window frame, landing on the same shoulder as I had hurt earlier. The sensei didn't even know what had happened until I sent him an email the next day, even with me telling the student very loudly to slow down.

A concerned student

A very nice story, Troll: but I'm not buying it. But again, even if it were true (giving you the benefit of the doubt): you have found some weird den of inebriate stoners who call themselves aikidoists. My advice: find another dojo where the students don't smoke weed before class.

But more likely, you are making it all up. In this case, my advice is to stop posting lies about a MA that you clearly know little about.

But, try the other MA sites: they could use a good laugh, too: I'm sure. :p

Erik Jögimar
09-08-2007, 12:12 PM
Actually i know the poster of that quite well, and she's not a troller. And what's your deal anyway? This is an experience of hers, and just becuse you havent seen it (I assume) it doesnt mean these things don't happen. Show some respect.

concerned student
09-08-2007, 12:20 PM
Excuse me SIR.

I do not appreciate your tone at all. I was simply sharing what had happened to me. Yes, I used the term 'sparring' So what? I couldn't think of the proper term at the time. Give me a break! I'm NOT doing this just to get attention, I was trying to express my real concern for how SOME people 'practice' aikido. I didn't intend that to be a blanket statement. If it cam off like that, I am sorry. Why do you automatically assume that I am lying about having witnessed people smoking pot? I really don't appreciate you ASSUMING that I am making this up. The dojo in question is run by someone I know, and I started studying there because I know the person. I did not know at the time that they smoke almost every day before class. Trust me, I AM looking for another school. And I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't automatically assume that I'm a troll and lying. Have a little respect.

A Concerned Student

jimbaker
09-08-2007, 05:06 PM
I've been doing Aikido for 33 years and, yes, I've seen both major and minor drug use in dojos across several organizations. This doesn't include alcohol.

Jim Baker

Neil Mick
09-08-2007, 05:19 PM
Show some respect.

Excuse me SIR.

I do not appreciate your tone at all.

Respect, online, is a moving target. Even amongst different websites, respect and etiquette have different meanings.

Personally, I tend to tow the line of "hate the game: not the player." That is, when someone says something I find outrageous, or patently false (such as, drug-usage is something you find happening a lot, around aikido-practice): my first impulse is to ridicule the statement (rather than the post-er).

For me, the guidelines of anonymous post'ers are a little wider, especially when the statements get progressively outrageous. Altho, the worst thing I'll ever say of a person directly, is that they are a troll...as that is my assumption (wrong, or right) of the activity that they're engaging.

But let's all take a step back, because some here seem to forget a basic tenet of the internet.

I was simply sharing what had happened to me. Yes, I used the term 'sparring' So what? I couldn't think of the proper term at the time.

Almost all aikidoists train (keiko); they do not "spar." Other MA's "spar" (boxing); while others "play" (i.e., Capoeira). Your usage of "sparring" made me think that you were possibly a MA (martial artist) from another discipline, coming online here to play "Diss the aikidoka." (it's been done before)

Give me a break! I'm NOT doing this just to get attention,

And the reason I would know this, is....?

I was trying to express my real concern for how SOME people 'practice' aikido. I didn't intend that to be a blanket statement. If it cam off like that, I am sorry.

Well, it did. This sentence is what really set me off:

As you know, sad as it is, Aikido combined with drug use seems to be common.

Why do you automatically assume that I am lying about having witnessed people smoking pot? I really don't appreciate you ASSUMING that I am making this up.

I'm sorry that you don't appreciate it. However, there you are...anonymous, and making blanket statements about a practice in a martial art, of which I spent a great deal of time studying. On the face of it, you are describing an activity of which I have never seen, experienced, or heard about, after a long time of training in dojo's of many affiliations, in more than a few countries. Of course my default position would be skepticism, and doubt about your intentions.

Consider the nature of the internet, for a second. We all can come online here, and pretend to be, do, or have witnessed, anything we like. You COULD actually be who you say you are, OR you COULD be Erik Jogimar (who COULD be someone else, entirely). I really have no way to tell (just as, you have no way to tell if I am who I say...it works both ways).

So, all I have to go on as to your veracity is your word, balanced against my own experiences. A lot of ppl come online and love to tell us all how ineffective aikido is, etc. Your post sounded suspiciously in that vein.

The dojo in question is run by someone I know, and I started studying there because I know the person. I did not know at the time that they smoke almost every day before class. Trust me, I AM looking for another school. And I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't automatically assume that I'm a troll and lying.

Point taken. But I hope you see the reasons for my doubts, as well.

Have a little respect.

A Concerned Student

OK, fair enough. Now, coming from the assumption that everything you say is true and accurate: here's my response:

I voted for medical marijuana with the rest of California when it came up. I also think that marijuana should be legalized, and that too many police resources are spent prosecuting marijuana users.

However, aikido is a martial art that could easily cause accidental injuries, even in the best of times. One thing I HAVE seen in almost all (American) dojo's where I've trained is the "release from harm" form that all students have to sign before training. This form is supposed to serve as an official notice that you understand that aikido can cause injury; and that you won't sue the dojo, should you become injured.

Pot-smoking would make this form completely moot: should you actually BECOME injured, all you'd have to do was mention pot-smoking at the trial, and the dojo would be liable (i.e, Sensei and the senior members were not acting in a manner that was safe to train).

At the very least, it's really stupid for yudansha (or ANY rank) to smoke pot before class, as it affects their judgement of what's going on (just as you pointed out, in your training example). They cannot accurately assess possible injuries of anyone training, under the influence.

At the very worst, they are presenting a very bad example to their dojo-members and are NOT really representing the teachings of O-Sensei. In short, what they are doing is not aikido.

My advice? Again: run, don't walk, to another dojo.

concenred student
09-08-2007, 05:28 PM
Baker-san,

Thank you for that. I'm glad some people don't think I'm a total nutcase and a troll :) It's sad that some feel that they have to depend on certain substances in order to achieve the proper mindset for aikido. In my experience, such as it is, I find that aikido itself is a form of meditation for me. I find it to be very, ah mentally liberating in it's own right. While I haven't been a student of Aikido for very long, I have at least found that :)

Neil Mick
09-08-2007, 05:39 PM
This doesn't include alcohol.

Jim Baker

This reminds me of a funny story involving MA (not aikido) training and alcohol...almost a cautionary tale.

A few years' (mid-90's) ago I trained in both Capoeira and aikido. One night I taught an aikido class (as a sub: not the normal teacher). Still feeling a little spry: I decided to rush over a few blocks to the Capoeira class. Two of the new students in the aikido class decided to tag along, to watch.

This time, however, our Mestre introduced a "new element" to training: a bottle of rum, which he made us all drink. I assumed that it had something to do with a sort of "goodbye-toast" to the buidling, as we were moving out, soon (what I SHOULD have done was pay more attention to the videocamera, off to the side :blush: ). So, I drank a few sips out of the shared bottle, and then we played in the "roda" (circle). I thought that we did a TREMENDOUS job, playing! We seemed more graceful and energetic: I was happy I brought over the 2 guests from aikido class.

That is, until the next party at Mestre's house, wherein he yanked out the videos he took, and I saw how we all REALLY looked... :blush: :( :blush:

So, now I know that I'm immortalized whenever Mestre has a party, with a stumbling video of my less-than-coordinated-self, on a buzz....

Urk. :uch: Don't let this happen to you! :o

concerned student
09-08-2007, 05:45 PM
Respect, online, is a moving target. Even amongst different websites, respect and etiquette have different meanings.

Yes, I'm quite aware of that, thank you.

Almost all aikidoists train (keiko); they do not "spar." Other MA's "spar" (boxing); while others "play" (i.e., Capoeira). Your usage of "sparring" made me think that you were possibly a MA (martial artist) from another discipline, coming online here to play "Diss the aikidoka." (it's been done before)

Like I said, I couldn't think of the right word, no one's grammar and command of english is ALWAYS perfect.

Well, it did. This sentence is what really set me off:

Again, I'm sorry. How many times do I need to apologize for that???

Consider the nature of the internet, for a second. We all can come online here, and pretend to be, do, or have witnessed, anything we like. You COULD actually be who you say you are, OR you COULD be Erik Jogimar (who COULD be someone else, entirely). I really have no way to tell (just as, you have no way to tell if I am who I say...it works both ways).

I'm quite aware of that, thank you.

So, all I have to go on as to your veracity is your word, balanced against my own experiences. A lot of ppl come online and love to tell us all how ineffective aikido is, etc. Your post sounded suspiciously in that vein.

I am in no way trying to tell you how in effective Aikido is. I'm simply trying to point out that pot use CAN affect one judgement and reflexes.

My advice? Again: run, don't walk, to another dojo.

And yes, I am finding another school.

Neil Mick
09-08-2007, 05:53 PM
And yes, I am finding another school.

Good.

grondahl
09-08-2007, 05:57 PM
Excuse me SIR.

I do not appreciate your tone at all. I was simply sharing what had happened to me. Yes, I used the term 'sparring' So what? I couldn't think of the proper term at the time. Give me a break! I'm NOT doing this just to get attention, I was trying to express my real concern for how SOME people 'practice' aikido. I didn't intend that to be a blanket statement. If it cam off like that, I am sorry. Why do you automatically assume that I am lying about having witnessed people smoking pot? I really don't appreciate you ASSUMING that I am making this up. The dojo in question is run by someone I know, and I started studying there because I know the person. I did not know at the time that they smoke almost every day before class. Trust me, I AM looking for another school. And I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't automatically assume that I'm a troll and lying. Have a little respect.

A Concerned Student

Is this a swedish dojo?

akiy
09-08-2007, 05:59 PM
Hi folks,

I'd like to step in and ask that locations of these dojo and other such possibly identifying information be kept out of the discussion. I don't think discussing such, especially under anonymity, is along the lines of why I created the Anonymous forum.

Also, let's try to give the benefit of the doubt for anonymous users. I'd like to make sure that anonymous users feel comfortable in bringing up their issues here in the Anonymous forum.

Thanks,

-- Jun

concerned student
09-08-2007, 06:19 PM
Grondahl,

it is not a Swedish dojo. Erik simply replied because he and I know each other, and he was expressing his support for me. And, like Jun said, I tried to keep indentifiers out of my post to protect the privacy of those in question. My words to anyone who reads this: Please take a careful look at any dojos you may be considering, and if there are questionable things happening, find another dojo, as I am doing now.

Mark Freeman
09-09-2007, 10:16 AM
It's sad that some feel that they have to depend on certain substances in order to achieve the proper mindset for aikido.

This would be delusional behaviour, the 'proper' mindset for aikido cannot be achieved by adding 'something' to the mix. It comes from patiently stripping away all of the 'rubbish' that gets in the way of achieving real co-ordination.

If a student turned up at class, having indulged in any drink/drug, they would be asked to sit and watch, by the end they would have lost their buzz and missed a practice...that would be sad..

practice, practice, practice, then if you wish, imbibe in your chosen intoxicant away from the dojo, down the pub? :)

regards,

Mark

jennifer paige smith
09-11-2007, 05:36 PM
True victory is self victory.

Aikido is not for correcting others but is a method for correcting your own spirit.

Watch and feel what you feel. Learn from peoples 'mistakes, and make them your strengths. Clean up your own act entirely, completely, and without a stone left unturned before you start on correcting others. If they are still f'd up by your estimations. start at the top of the list again.

If you don't like the training, move yourself.

anon
09-11-2007, 07:03 PM
Turn this on its head. I don't deny you your powers of self-determination. Smoke if you want. I am not in the business of trying to force my opinion on you. But answer this:

Why do you use at all?

The internal need or desire for a chemically-induced altered state of conscious is suggestive. But I don't want to make any assumptions. Just give me a few good reasons why one would want to use.

Oh - and don't worry, I am not a researcher.

There has not been a viable culture in the history of civilization that does not begin their day with a strong stimulant. The problem is people equate drug use with drug abuse ...they are not at all the same thing. mentally stable people can responsibly use drugs...in the same way that stable people can use alcohol, which can be devastating debilitating and life threatening. The issue is with the individual ..the substances are benign.

Qatana
09-11-2007, 07:51 PM
"Just give me a few good reasons why one would want to use."

Because anti-depressants make me want to hurt people, and because I like to sleep at night.

And Yes I have a State of California Patient's card, and I do not consume for at least 3 hours before training. Usually not at all on days I train at night.