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ze'ev erlich
11-20-2002, 02:19 AM
Hello,
Please see attached file.

It is a message posted many many years ago at o-sensei's dojo in Iwama.
The photo is from Tamura Nobuyoshi Shihan's book.

What do you think...

I decided to print it and to have it on the wall at my dojo. My students welcomed the idea.

Ze'ev Erlich
Rehovot
Israel

Aikikan Dojo
Rehovot Aikikai

PeterR
11-20-2002, 02:35 AM
Did Ueshiba M. (message from O'sensei) post the sign?

Considering how Iwama kihon use pretty strong resistive grips I think what was meant was Inappropriate Use of Force.

Used to incomplete Japanese translations.

ze'ev erlich
11-20-2002, 03:09 AM
I can only guess that it was during the early days of Iwama, and that the style practiced there was somewhat different than it is these days.

After watching videos of films taken in Iwama when o-sensei taught there, I am sure that people did not resist each other.

Bruce Baker
11-20-2002, 05:14 AM
Sound advice.

The more someone uses force to resist, the better the chance they will hurt themselves, or create a situation for injury.

Resistence may be futile, but it does add flavor to training.

Tim Griffiths
11-20-2002, 07:43 AM
Translation questions aside, "using force to stop your partner completing the technique is forbidden" is not the same as "holding with correct posture, such that your partner is forced to do the technique correctly or not at all, is forbidden".

Some people say I'm hard to work with - usually I feel like a big door with "PULL" written on it, being moaned at by people because no matter how hard they push, I don't open.

'Pointing behind your partner with wide open eyes and saying "What in the world can that be?" in order to distract them from completing their technique is forbidden. Unless its Tuesday'.

Tim

akiy
11-20-2002, 08:32 AM
Just to add to things here, the Japanese that's used in the sign is "Ganbariai no keiko wo kinshi shimasu. Dojocho." The term "ganbariai" to me more connotes the feeling of doing whatever it takes to negate your partner's movements -- being a butthead, if you will. Peter G? Chris?

I'm guessing that this sign was posted by the late Saito sensei as he was referred to as "Dojocho" at the Iwama dojo.

-- Jun

ze'ev erlich
11-21-2002, 04:34 AM
please see Kensho Furuya Sensei's (6dan) essay regarding this subject.

I think the essay shows a way which is the same way practiced at my dojo.

please see this website (http://www.aikidocenterla.com/articles.htm)

Ghost Fox
11-21-2002, 06:49 AM
The amount of Resistance you give your Nage is analogous to lifting weights. When you first start bench-pressing you don't slap on 500 kg of weight and try to lift. You'll be lucky if you don't get a hernia. Instead you start with maybe 45 kg total and do that for a couple of weeks and then slowly you increase the weight and reps. As Uke your job is to be the weight that Nage is working with. You have to provide the right amount of resistance to drive the Nage to exhaustion, but not too much tension as to be unhealthy for the Nage. Also, you can neither be to easy on the Nage, else they will never truly develop. This is why being an Uke is such an important skill to learn, it requires sensitivity and flow. Being an Uke is not just about taking Ukemi.

Greg Jennings
11-21-2002, 08:09 AM
Considering how Iwama kihon use pretty strong resistive grips I think what was meant was Inappropriate Use of Force.
From my experience (recognizing that Tim has much more of it), appropriate resistence is integral to the Iwama kihon training method.

We can't discover the angles/paths/groves that lead around uke's strength if he doesn't give us some resistence to work with.

===

Back in the old days I'm told that there was also a "country versus city" thing going on in Iwama that contributed to the treatment that some of the "city slickers" received when they came to train.

That situation may have contributed to the sign that this thread refers to which, IIRC, was posted by the late Morihiro Saito Sensei, not by Ueshiba O-Sensei.

There is a thread about this on Aikido Journal "A Memorial Address for Saito Sensei by T.K. Chiba Shihan". Here is the current link: http://65.119.177.201/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=001323 .

Best Regards,

Edward
11-21-2002, 10:09 AM
I think it's all about giving honest and constructive attacks, such as holding firmly in katatetori so that nage could develope ki and power and sensitivity to the direction of power applied by uke. Resisting technique half-way when you know what your partner intends to do, and deviating your attack in a way that it doesn't fulfill its purpose and make it impossible for your nage to apply the required technique, this is bad manners...

Greg Jennings
11-21-2002, 02:31 PM
Just to add to things here, the Japanese that's used in the sign is "Ganbariai no keiko wo kinshi shimasu. Dojocho." The term "ganbariai" to me more connotes the feeling of doing whatever it takes to negate your partner's movements -- being a butthead, if you will.
Hi Jun,

He's not Goldsworth or Li Senseis, but I got this back from my instructor:

================

... Ganbariai no keiko gives a sense of two people at logger heads during training. This is much different than katai-keiko. ...

================

I'm a little out on a limb here, but I think "katai keiko" is something that Goto Sensei covered in our recent seminar.

If it is the same word/character, he indicated in our specific context, it could also carry the connotation of "strictly precise" or something like that.

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
11-21-2002, 02:33 PM
I think it's all about giving honest and constructive attacks, such as holding firmly in katatetori so that nage could develope ki and power and sensitivity to the direction of power applied by uke. Resisting technique half-way when you know what your partner intends to do, and deviating your attack in a way that it doesn't fulfill its purpose and make it impossible for your nage to apply the required technique, this is bad manners...
Roger that. Mutual benefit.

Best Regards,

akiy
11-21-2002, 02:56 PM
... Ganbariai no keiko gives a sense of two people at logger heads during training. This is much different than katai-keiko. ...
I'd have to agree with your teacher on this.

"Katai keiko" to me has uke providing a strong, "static" attack and allows nage to work on his/her "correct" form, using center, and so forth.

To me, "ganbariai" connotes more of the kind of training where uke knows exactly what nage is going to do and stops it. This often devolves into a sort of standing wrestling match without much awareness for each other's real openings outside of the struggle they're currently involved in.
I'm a little out on a limb here, but I think "katai keiko" is something that Goto Sensei covered in our recent seminar.

If it is the same word/character, he indicated in our specific context, it could also carry the connotation of "strictly precise" or something like that.
The term "katai" basically means "rigid." I could see how it could apply to the overall style of training rather than the specific kind of attack and such.

-- Jun

Chris Li
11-21-2002, 03:48 PM
I'd have to agree with your teacher on this.

"Katai keiko" to me has uke providing a strong, "static" attack and allows nage to work on his/her "correct" form, using center, and so forth.

To me, "ganbariai" connotes more of the kind of training where uke knows exactly what nage is going to do and stops it. This often devolves into a sort of standing wrestling match without much awareness for each other's real openings outside of the struggle they're currently involved in.
That's basically what I would say. I would say that the sign was referring to the times when people start struggling against each other and the interaction turns into a contest of strength.

Best,

Chris