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Kat.C
11-08-2002, 12:52 PM
Sometimes during practise when I throw my ukes they are hanging on to my gi and I have nearly fallen on them. I tell my partner what has happened so that they will let go of my gi before falling, because I really don't want to land on anyone and I doubt they want me too either, but shouldn't I be able to do something about this? Usually this happens just with ukes who are much more powerful than me(which most of them are :rolleyes: )otherwise it's beeen due to a poor stance on my part. Sometimes though my posture is fine but it is just that their strength and weight combined with the motion of their fall pulls me off balance. Does this happen to anyone else, and does anyone have any advice so I can stay upright?:)

Roy Dean
11-08-2002, 01:53 PM
I've had that experience happen many times, usually with highly egoic males who like to insinuate "Yah, you threw me, but check it out, I always have the upper hand..."

The second you put them over and they try to off balance you, you have to catch your balance. The way to do this is to put your knee on their chest or across their belly as they're on their back and trying to pull you down.

Stabilizing yourself on their body (your foot would extend into your front balance point if their body wasn't in the way) throw your chest out and shoulders back in one quick motion. They won't be able to hang on to your gi unless their grips strength is enormous (i.e. carpet layer, Olympic judoka).

This way, they're thrown, you counter their resistance, and end up in the dominant position (knee on belly, or you can rise to standing). It also gives them a little reminder that resistance can be practiced by both parties.

Good Training to You,

Roy Dean

kklipsch
11-08-2002, 02:28 PM
Lot's of ju-jitsu and judo throws come from reversals of this sort. In fact I think that is one thing that traditional judo helps teach, is that just because someone is being thrown does not mean they are "out".

I view this as a valid way of showing flaws in my technique and appreciate it when my uke attempt this. Roy suggests one good way to stop this and I'm sure there are others. If you are really going to land on them, it may be safer to roll over them, avoiding any collision of hard body parts.

Kat.C
11-08-2002, 02:36 PM
Ooops sorry I should have mentioned that none of these guys are being jerks and none are high-ranked. I think mostly they are forgetting to let go. I'm not very controlled going down when this happens, so I'm afraid that if I tried to put my knee on them I would land too hard and hurt them.I appreciate the advice though, as one of the reasons that I was wondering what I could do is because I doubt that asking an attacker to 'please let go of my gi' would be very effective. :rolleyes: (the other reasons is that it is a little embarrassing to be stumbling about, and my gi has almost been pulled off to!)I will see if my husband will let me practice this with him so that I can do it if need be. I don't think that I would be comfortable doing this to my partners though. I doubt I'd do it even if it was some egotistical idiot, I've no desire to get into a battle of wills. Besides if it was someone who was doing it on purpose they'd probably be putting effort into putting me down, and I'd land on them for sure, I'd never be able to resist the added force. I also wouldn't try:grr: :D

Larry Feldman
11-08-2002, 03:35 PM
You are on the right track with your stance, but it sounds like you are off balance at the finish of the throw.

If you are balanced properly then the uke's pull will just pull your center straight down into your legs, and won't pull you over. They wouldn't be able to hold on - it will be like a cat sliding down a greased poll.

Pay attention to your stance and balance at the end of your throws.

blackburnaj
11-08-2002, 03:45 PM
I personally hold on because it sometimes lessens the impact of the ground. I truely have no mal intent. I just want to train another day. I also see this as a means to train your balance and center. just my thoughts... every situation is a chance to train.

alan blackburn, (aj)

cguzik
11-08-2002, 04:09 PM
A while back when I was having this problem my uke noticed it and asked me if I was in hanmi as/after I executed the throw. Guess what the problem was...

Chris

erikmenzel
11-08-2002, 04:47 PM
Dear Kat,

I normaly am on the other end of this experience. My size and body weight are more than enough to pull anybody having improper stance and posture down. I have observed in our classes often that people think thier stance and posture are good enough. The simple have Erik as hang-on uke test shows otherwise.:D :rolleyes:

Roy Dean
11-08-2002, 05:08 PM
Many excellent points have been brought up in these responses. Good posture at the end of the throw is of paramount importance (better to bend at the knees than bend at the waist).

I think the real key here is realizing that you start the technique with an independent center, then your center shifts to counterbalance their center during the throw, then you have to regain your center at completion.

Sometimes if uke's rotation when being thrown is incomplete, they will hold on to retain a sense of balance (the two centers have not yet diverged). Execute the throw with crisp confidence, giving uke a full rotation, and this will make it easier to regain your center and end with good posture.

I hope this helps.

Roy

asiawide
11-08-2002, 05:56 PM
Sometimes my teacher pull my gi on purpose, so I used to fall down after throwing. I think if you throw uke to the floor and don't bend your back forward, you will be able to control your body after throwing. If you throw uke to forward and uke grabs your gi, mostly you can't control yourself.

Jucas
11-08-2002, 06:54 PM
The second you put them over and they try to off balance you, you have to catch your balance. The way to do this is to put your knee on their chest or across their belly as they're on their back and trying to pull you down.
This is very, very dangerous. When not controlled this can lead to broken ribs, spines, punctured lungs. This is not a safe valid training technique.

I am sure it has been said before, but everytime this has happened to me it has been because of my posture/stance at the end of the throw.

The end of the throw is as important as the beginning, all elements need to be crisp and well defined. If anything, tell them to hold on, but go much much slower. Refine your movements.

L. Camejo
11-08-2002, 06:54 PM
This problem frustrated me b4 and it basically came down to one of three things.

1.Always sinking into a deeper stance, ending the technique in a lower stance than I began,

2.Keeping my back impeccably straight with my weight sunk into my hips(if you videotape yourself you may realise that even though you may feel like your back is straight it may still have a slight bend which is being exploited); and

3. Moving from the centre, utilising focused, unified body movement to generate power instead of compensating with upper body strength. The use of upper body power creates both tension and torsion that can destabilise you, even if the technique is otherwise perfect.

The judo throw idea I use very often to test the stability of my students' (and my own) techniques. If a tech is done properly the uke simply cannot hold on, regardless of strength of grip. It is tori's responsibility to control their own body so uke cannot hold on, their grip snaps off the gi almost like a whip in the worst scenarios, but balance is not lost, in fact their downward force on your body solidfies your stance if you stay relaxed.

Take this as an opportunity to take your techniques to another level. When you get it, the reward is a feeling of stability unlike anything else:)

My 2 cents

L.C.:ai::ki:

Roy Dean
11-08-2002, 07:15 PM
Jucas,

Knee on belly is a common position in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and I've never seen or heard of an injury related to this position. All techniques are dangerous if done in an uncontrolled manner. Perhaps you are imagining it as something else...

Roy

Jucas
11-08-2002, 07:27 PM
Hmmm... Perhaps I jumped to conclusion. I know what you are refering to in Ju-jitsu. But, from knowledge (as limited as it may be) on that technique, it is used as "emphasis" and to control your attacker on the ground not to regain your balance.

Obviously when an technique is practiced in an uncontroled manner, injurries happen. What I visualize is a thow occuring, and a less experience aikidoka, putting thier knee down on the uke's chest to regain "balance". However, if there is to much unblance and momentum things could get very ugly.

Does that explain my stance of opinion better?

MaylandL
11-08-2002, 09:10 PM
1....ending the technique in a lower stance than I began,

2.Keeping my back impeccably straight with my weight sunk into my hips...; and

3. Moving from the centre, utilising focused, unified body movement to generate power instead of compensating with upper body strength. ...

...

My 2 cents
I think that Larry's comments are very good. Being a smaller person I sometimes get pulled down when I throw a larger uke especially if my posture in the technique is poor. I'm still working on koshinage. I've found that doing the things that Larry suggests, especially for Koshinage, has help a lot.

Btw Larry, I think your advice is worth more..a little more like 5 cents ;)

Happy training all

Kat.C
11-08-2002, 10:17 PM
Okay guys I'm guessing here:rolleyes: but I take it you think my problem is proper stance and posture? Seriously though, I really appreciate the replies, and the advice which I intend to put into practice, so thank you:) Hopefully if I improve my posture and stance it will help fix a few other problems I'm having.

Now if I could just stop them from pulling my gi top open:eek:

aikido_fudoshin
11-08-2002, 11:06 PM
I think you should give them a warning the first time, and if they keep doing it, then fall on them. They will learn pretty quickly. :D

pointy
11-09-2002, 02:00 AM
i got in on this thread just a little late. i would like to offer a sentence that made all the difference for me when i was having the same problem:

"keep your butt between your feet"

there's more to it than that but for me it was just the visual i needed.

oh yeah, and dont bend your back when you throw ;) i mean not at all. it's a little weird at first but once you come to know the feeling it'll stick with you.

good luck!

evan

erikmenzel
11-09-2002, 04:02 AM
Now if I could just stop them from pulling my gi top open:eek:
Well, first of all wear a t-shirt underneat :rolleyes:

Second, get at the level were it is at your club appropriate to wear a hakama, really a hakama also helps some in keeping your gi in place.

Kat.C
11-09-2002, 06:39 AM
Well, first of all wear a t-shirt underneat :rolleyes:
I do! I'd never go without one. I don't want my gi pulled open as it then falls down around my arms and restricts my movements.
Second, get at the level were it is at your club appropriate to wear a hakama, really a hakama also helps some in keeping your gi in place.
So that's why you wear the darn things! :cool: Well getting to that level is going to take me a very long time. I think perhpas I'll buy some velcro.:)

Thanks everyone for all the advice:)

pointy
11-09-2002, 01:53 PM
I think perhpas I'll buy some velcro.:)
i tried velcro once. it kept going "RIIIIIIPPPPPPP RIPPPPPPPP" every time i did a technique.

:)

evan

Kat.C
11-09-2002, 04:00 PM
i tried velcro once. it kept going "RIIIIIIPPPPPPP RIPPPPPPPP" every time i did a technique.

:)

evan
That would be sooooo annoying, thanks for the warning.

giriasis
11-10-2002, 10:01 AM
Hey Kat,

Another option could be that they might be holding on for "support" especially if they are doing breakfalls. If that's the case, you can hold on to them for them as it makes taking the breakfall a little more easier.

Creature_of_the_id
11-11-2002, 03:05 AM
Hi,

Being a light person I have had this problem in the past also.

It tended to happen to me when I was doing defense against a tanto, I would throw uke and keep control of the knife, meaning I was the one holding on and i would often get pulled off balance.

I found that taking another step often helped me. if my center is being pulled forward, then dont fight it... Step forward and stay on balance. Or when you throw them, don't throw them so far, put them down in front of you and then get behind them before they stand up (good practice for free attack).

anyway, advice would be easier if I could see what was happening.

I hope that some of the advice that you have been given works out for you

Let us know :)

Thalib
11-11-2002, 06:39 AM
I personally have no problem with uke holding on to me, it is, with some techniques, safer for them. If I get pulled, knocked over, or pushed, I take it that it is my fault, not the uke. It is my fault if I didn't keep my center and keep my unity, mind and body.

With holding attacks, I even try to keep uke holding me even after they fall, when it is safe to do so. It is a test for myself, a test of control. Softening the uke's landing and to see if I have kept one mind and body.

ian
11-11-2002, 06:46 AM
I've had that experience happen many times, usually with highly egoic males who like to insinuate "Yah, you threw me, but check it out, I always have the upper hand..."

I have a tendancy to hang on to people myself after being thrown. This is usually when I'm being thrown with a great deal of contact with the body (e.g. koshi-nage, some kokyu-nages) - often comprising of an arm draped over the nages back. This is not malicious (as far as I'm aware), but a natural tendency to slow myself down and control my body movement as well as maintain connection with uke.

Tips:

1. Sometimes with techniques like kokyunage (sokumen irimi-nage) people grab your arm - best thing to do is NOT to support them. If anyone is grabbing onto your arm and trying to use it as a support just bend your knees and offer them no support (letting them drop to the floor) - as if they were grabbing on to a cloud. This should be an instantaneous reaction (but not necessarily with force).

2. Many styles tend to stand where they are and project away from them, however at the moment we train to throw and move forwards (body movement rather than force from a fixed stance being the impetus behind the throw). Thus if they keep hold you are moving in the same direction anyway e.g. with kaiten-nage, as you step through and throw, you can continue walking. If they grab on - give them a dummy strike as they lay there (you should be directly over them). (Ukemi is an escape for uke - if they don't want to take that opportunity, its their choice).

hope this helps!

Ian

ian
11-11-2002, 07:02 AM
P.S.

option 3. As a last ditch resort (especially if they are realy trying to pull you to the floor). At all times keep your back straight. As they pull you down, land on their sternum with your knees (P.S. can be dangerous - and goes to show that we shouldn't wrestle around in the dojo - however, a better reaction in real cases).

Ian

Larry Feldman
11-11-2002, 10:40 AM
Kat -

Best to work on fixing your 'finishing' posture now, it will become more important when you have to deal with two attackers. If you are off balance it will be harder to transition to the next attack.

(This is how I found out I needed to correct my 'finishing' posture!)

Kat.C
11-11-2002, 11:34 AM
Hi eveyone, just wanted to say thank you again for all the replies and advice, very much appreciated. I will see if I can put the tips to good use in class tonight.
Kat -

Best to work on fixing your 'finishing' posture now, it will become more important when you have to deal with two attackers. If you are off balance it will be harder to transition to the next attack.

(This is how I found out I needed to correct my 'finishing' posture!)
Well that's a pretty effective way to learn. Umm, did this happen to you in the dojo?

Larry Feldman
11-11-2002, 06:43 PM
Yes it did. I used to finshed with a pretty 'deep' stance, as oppossed to hanmi.

It meant that I had to get 'straigtened out', back up to hanmi before I could be rady to receive the next technique/attacker. I started studying at a new dojo (a long story for another time), and this is one of the things that was pointed out to me.

Roy Dean
11-11-2002, 07:18 PM
Very helpful suggestions by everyone.

Jucas,

I see your point regarding an uncontrolled decent on uke's chest. Since their body is blocking access to the front balance point, going to knee on belly as an intermediate position can allow nage to quickly regain their balance, instead of stepping over uke's body (which can sometimes be a little awkward). It also allows transition to a quick armbar, since uke has conveniently extended their limb in their effort to hang on to you.

ian,

Sometimes people hang on to help complete their rotation (myself included), sometimes they hang on for a friendly reminder for nage to check their balance, sometimes they really try to pull you over to appease themselves. It's all about intent.

Kat's post just happened to trigger a memory of a particular yudansha yanking my chain at the San Rafael retreat. His intentions were clear... it was all about him.

Good Training to You All,

Roy Dean