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SeiserL
11-07-2002, 10:51 AM
Curious, what do you believe are important points and strategies in learning Randori?

Until again,
Lynn

diesel
11-07-2002, 11:16 AM
Curious, what do you believe are important points and strategies in learning Randori?

Until again,

Lynn
Staying calm for one! Keep your cool when you have 3-5 people running at you, it is very nerve rattling!

uhm.. Sankyo and yonkyo can be your friend just dont get attached to them. Also remember your diashi<sp>. It's better to deflect the first few passes and get them slowed down.

Cheers,

Eric

akiy
11-07-2002, 11:32 AM
I'm guessing we're talking about randori in the sense of taninzudori (multiple person attacking exercise) rather than how it's defined in some approaches to aikido (freestyle, one-on-one).

George Ledyard put it nicely when he told me he thought randori involved the "conflict" between nage trying to line up the multiple uke into a line and the multiple uke trying to surround nage.

The most useful pieces of advice that I have received for randori has been:

1) Keep moving forward.

2) Enter into the spaces, not into the people.

3) Use movement, not techniques.

4) Stay out of the "middle" of the group.

5) Be assertive in your movements.

6) Stay away from "fancy" things like sutemiwaza.

7) Use atemi and kiai.

8) Keep breathing.

9) Maintain an open focus to take in the group.

... and ...

10) Practice randori regularly.

-- Jun

mike lee
11-07-2002, 12:16 PM
11) Eat a lot of garlic. :ki:

erikmenzel
11-07-2002, 02:06 PM
12) Imagine the uke you are in contact with to be a bowling ball and all the other uke to be bowling pins.:D :freaky: :rolleyes:

L. Camejo
11-07-2002, 02:21 PM
Timing, ma ai, controlling the rhythm of the attacks, zanshin and the use of simple, effective techniques over pretty ones that require so much time to execute that the ukes close on you.

Good application of sen timing works great too:), you don't always have to sit there and wait for uke to attack you.

L.C.:ai::ki:

Sean Moffatt
11-07-2002, 02:33 PM
Curious, what do you believe are important points and strategies in learning Randori?

Until again,

Lynn
Important Strategy to learning randori:

Dedicate one hour a week to it's study.

:D

MattRice
11-07-2002, 02:48 PM
-never wait: choose who will attack you when

-don't over commit to direction, you may have to change it suddenly

-let atemi guide entry

-control breathing

-use bodies as shields in a pinch

-use bodies as projectiles in a pinch

-laugh at yourself

MaylandL
11-07-2002, 07:23 PM
Did some randori this week. I can say that a lot of what is posted is very useful advice and does help in the randori. I found that I didnt do any of the techniques though there were occassions when I did use Ikkyo and sumi otoshi. I was surprised that there were times that I used kiai and that seemed to be beneficial.

I have got to work on my breathing, distance and tactics in terms of moving into the spaces and lining people up.

Looks like sensei will be focussing more on randori for the Yundansha grades over the next few months.

Glad you raised the thread Lynn and thanks for the pointers all. Its very timely. Happy training :)

sanosuke
11-07-2002, 10:29 PM
Curious, what do you believe are important points and strategies in learning Randori?

timing and distance, these two are the most important aspect in doing randori. then we also learn how to relax ourselves as multiple attackers coming. I also realized that randori teach us how to move efficiently.

strategies?, mmmm...I think always put your opponent within your vision range, never leave any opponent behind you.

Ta Kung
11-08-2002, 01:55 AM
I have yet to practise randori. We do practise jiu waza (sp?) sometimes, though. What do you people consider beeing a good time to start practising randori? After a year? Earlier? Two years?

/Patrik

Creature_of_the_id
11-08-2002, 03:06 AM
Breath, enter, Kokyo nage is your friend!, relax (i.e. don't be afriad)

Choose who attacks you by 'going at them'.

Don't judge your technique, when you have thrown someone forget about it and focus on the next one.

Have faith in your training.

"What do you people consider beeing a good time to start practising randori? After a year? Earlier? Two years?"

I personally like to start people off early with maybe one attacker and a set attack. Any technique can be done.

Then you change the attack, then over time you increase the speed and realism. Then over time increase the number of Ukes.

I think the time it takes to get to 'full' randori will vary for each person. With no practice of randori and just training I think it would take about a year and a half? to be able to cope with multiple attack.

With prior practice and building up obviously less... but, who's in a hurry?

ian
11-08-2002, 08:41 AM
I think the suprising thing is how nage controls the speed of the movement - if you start off relaxed and move gently around the mat (rather than spriting around) the control of the attacking ukes is much easier. Also, don't try and do technique - randori is definately one of these things where you must allow uke to commit to the attack - otherwise the grabs/strikes become half-hearted; once they are committed a response is possible. Also, generally no pins, and if someone is not actually trying to attack you, just walk past them (i.e. a half hearted grab or strike). Its very easy to think you have to DO something - the trick is to do as little as possible.

Ian

SeiserL
11-08-2002, 09:01 AM
I am impressed. Deepest compliments and appreciation.

As always; relax, breathe, and enjou yourself.

Until again,

Lynn

Kevin Wilbanks
11-08-2002, 09:33 AM
I always used to have problems with even very limited variable randori, but lately I've been enjoying it and faring pretty well. Of course, a good bit of this confidence could be coming from the fact that the uke in my current training situation are mostly less experienced and aggressive, so take that as a qualifier. Nonetheless, I feel like I'm starting to get an intuitive handle on some of the principles.

I think the main problem I see and I used to have is letting the energy get too high up - around the arms and head. This tends to result in ukes not getting thrown, but just tangled up a little and pushed away. The solution seems to be to make sure to turn the hips and cut down, so that the uke are actually thrown and it takes them longer to get up and come back at you. I also think taking big steps helps.

Perhaps this is obvious, but as soon as you engage someone by touch, stop looking at them and deal with them only by feel, surveying the situation as you throw them.

I was always told to attempt to line up the uke so that you can deal with them one at a time. This used to seem like somewhat wishful thinking, but lately I seem to be able to do it. What made the difference? I get into a very aggressive mode and really go after each uke. I think of Toshiro Mifune taking on multiple attackers in an old movie... like I want the attackers to be thinking "Wait a minute! I thought we were attacking him?!" Anyway, it has been working - I line 'em up and plow right through them. A few times, I've noticed that I get to an uke before they are even ready to attack me - unlike the prior fellows advice, I just grab them and take them down, ready or not. If anyone else tries this tack, I'd like to hear about their experiences with it. It takes a lot of energy, but it seems to be the single best 'trick' I've found for randori.

Russ Qureshi
11-08-2002, 10:40 AM
I highly recommend George Ledyard Sensei's Randori Intensive. He usually conducts two intensives per year. If you want to know about strategy in randori he is the man! Here is his URL.

www.aikieast.com

Regards,

Russ

faramos
11-08-2002, 12:10 PM
Keep your head up, listen to you body move and above all else... Just Breath.

Trung Dinh
11-10-2002, 04:12 PM
Mr. Seiser,

I saw an awesome demonstration of randori by Phong Sensei this weekend. I'd be very interested to hear what you have learned from him on the essential points of randori.

By way of introduction, I studied with Hoa Newens Sensei who studied with Phong Sensei in Vietnam.

Trung

Kevin Leavitt
11-10-2002, 08:55 PM
For me the important thing I need to worry about is posture. I start out okay, but after a while (I'm a big guy) I break posture and start trying to lean into uke and push them around. It usually ends with me in trouble with someone on my back or pulling me down.

That said, moving-irimi/tenkan is the other most important thing.

Suru
11-10-2002, 09:21 PM
I've seen randori in which nage walks backward away from the attacks. I say, IRIMI, IRIMI, IRIMI!!!

Fiona D
11-11-2002, 08:08 AM
"I've seen randori in which nage walks backward away from the attacks. I say, IRIMI, IRIMI, IRIMI!!!"

In my last grading, the examiner had an interesting way of getting me around this problem. First I had to defend against a 2-person attack from the middle of the mat as normal, then starting from having my back against the wall (ie. having to move forwards or sideways) then, lastly, starting from being stuck in a corner so nowhere to go except forwards! Rather scary, but it worked.

mike lee
11-11-2002, 09:07 AM
... lastly, starting from being stuck in a corner so nowhere to go except forwards!

Thanks for the idea my students will hate you for it! :D

bcole23
11-11-2002, 03:49 PM
Randori is where Aikido is at. I'm not that good at it yet, but this is my philosophy:

-As always breath, stay relaxed, and let go of yourself.

-At first, I don't do any technique at all. None. Zero. Just try to move.

-If you find yourself getting caught up in the attack, get back to your center any way you can and relax again.

-Getting smashed and "losing" for trying stuff out is OK. When learning and experimenting, you don't need to be perfect.

-Atemi.

-MOVE.

gi_grrl
11-21-2002, 09:18 PM
I've been focusing on positive / negative techniques in randori:

1. Big enter: don't wait for them to attack just get in there fast. I think of this as 'big feet, small hands' because your legs are doing most of the work and the atemi comes from the movement of your body.

2. Fly-by: let their movement carry them on past you, but give them some added momentum with your technique. This is 'big hands, small feet' because your arms, body and hips do the movement while you hold your ground and throw uke past you.

Doug Mathieu
11-25-2002, 01:49 PM
Hi

I have a question relating to all of this. Has anyone dealt very well with the bear hug?

I have been in and observed quite a few Jiyu Waza/Randori sessions and tests. It seems like that when ukes get tired of the play they go for a frontal bear hug and that finishes things very quickly.

Similarly even ryo kata tori grabs that are agressively applied are almost impossible to get out of or avoid when there are more than a couple ukes.

One thing I noticed is we don't usually use atemi. Maybe because we are to nervous of hurting uke more than a little.

In 11 years I have yet to see a Yudansha test where nage doesn't get pinned very quickly

(I count myself in that group). This includes up to 4th Dan.

Tim Griffiths
11-26-2002, 06:13 AM
Hi

I have a question relating to all of this. Has anyone dealt very well with the bear hug?

...It seems like that when ukes get tired of the play they go for a frontal bear hug and that finishes things very quickly.

Similarly even ryo kata tori grabs that are agressively applied are almost impossible to get out of or avoid when there are more than a couple ukes.

One thing I noticed is we don't usually use atemi. Maybe because we are to nervous of hurting uke more than a little.
[my emphasis]

I think you answered your own question.

How do you deal with a front bear hug in a 1-on-1 attack? Do the same thing during randori. Personally, a grab to the balls (or a pinch to the thigh, if you're shy) helps to loosen up uke for a throw.

Come to think of it, if you let uke get a front bear hug on in randori, then you're standing much too still in the first place. That goes for the strong grips, too.

In our dojo (which to my taste doesn't practice randori/ji-waza enough), its understood that the more resistive an attack, the more likely it is that the first response will be atemi.

In aikido we want to be nice to our attacker. Unfortunately, sometimes that's not possible, due to time, number of attackers and our own level of skill. If it comes to a choice of smacking one attacker, or being pinned down and beaten by six of them, the choice should be pretty clear. We should train this way in the dojo too (maybe toning down how hard you hit them, though ;))

Tim

Tim Griffiths
11-26-2002, 06:24 AM
Hi

In 11 years I have yet to see a Yudansha test where nage doesn't get pinned very quickly

(I count myself in that group). This includes up to 4th Dan.
I haven't been pinned (or held down) in a grading, with up to 6 ukes attacking.

Is that because I'm wonderful? No. (I am, but that's a different subject).

Its because I did get pinned. And again. And again. All the time. Then only most of the time. Then some of the time. And now only now and then (one in ten times, maybe). I got lucky in the gradings (or tried harder).

Same as any other part of aikido. Do it a lot.

Tim

Jim ashby
11-26-2002, 08:31 AM
A bite on the ear works too.

Have fun

eric carpenter
12-06-2002, 09:36 AM
Breath, enter, Kokyo nage is your friend!, relax (i.e. don't be afriad)

Choose who attacks you by 'going at them'.

Don't judge your technique, when you have thrown someone forget about it and focus on the next one.

Have faith in your training.

"What do you people consider beeing a good time to start practising randori? After a year? Earlier? Two years?"

I personally like to start people off early with maybe one attacker and a set attack. Any technique can be done.

Then you change the attack, then over time you increase the speed and realism. Then over time increase the number of Ukes.

I think the time it takes to get to 'full' randori will vary for each person. With no practice of randori and just training I think it would take about a year and a half? to be able to cope with multiple attack.

With prior practice and building up obviously less... but, who's in a hurry?

eric carpenter
12-06-2002, 09:40 AM
i like this,im working on randori at moment,sometimes its good sometimes its hopeless,perserverance again i suppose,it is difficult there doesnt seem to be a rule book for randori and its difficult not to have ideas in mind rather than just reacting to the attack,and when you start its a bit intimidating getting up in front of your piers and trying to put something together ,

still so much to learn

ec

Tadhg Bird
12-07-2002, 10:51 AM
I have yet to practise randori. We do practise jiu waza (sp?) sometimes, though. What do you people consider beeing a good time to start practising randori? After a year? Earlier? Two years?
Where I train, randori is one of the first things we learn! Though our randori are not free for alls, they are very structured. One attack, (Two hands to the shoulders [Ryou kata dori?]) One technique (Sumi otoshi), Three attackers.

Conversly, jiyu waza is something for the more advanced players at my dojo.

IwamaRyuCole
12-07-2002, 01:57 PM
At my dojo i was called up for jiu-waza the first night i attended! They introduce it early and we practice it almost every night. Randori is one of my favorite parts of Aikido, especialy since it allows for so much creativity and it really builds on awareness.

Magosha Moon
12-07-2002, 03:09 PM
Hi:

I took my shodan test last Sunday and had a good time throwing around 4 ukes, just trying to relax, move, and never be in the spot where they expect me.

The way we practise randori during training sessions is by making ukes WALK rather than CHARGE at nage. This way, nage gains confidence moving around people, really going for them, and not being worried about whether a perfect technique unfolds or not. As soon as nage becomes more confident, the ukes move in a little faster.

Greetings from Holland,

Magosha

locknthrow
12-30-2002, 01:11 AM
This is in response to the guy that had trouble with the front besr hug. A little trick I learned from BJJ...when the guy front bear hugs you, as soon as you can place both of your palms against his hips and push out. Practice and play around with it a little and you'll discover you have enough room to turn into a hip throw. Since your pushing his "center" back sounds like Aiki to me.

norman telford
12-31-2002, 05:46 AM
in randori i find dealing with a non commited uke the hardest thing to deal with,slow off target attacks making it difficult to apply a technique in my opionion the attack must be real even if you cant get a technique on it at the least teaches you to move quickly getting out of the attacks way is of paramount importance as if your hit its very difficult to make a technique when your flat on your back there are also the other things that have been mentioned breathing, calm, control etc which are all important too but you have to move randori is very complicated and not an exact science i havent got a strategy for it i just make it up as i go along whenever i watch footage of o'sensei or other masters they seem to glide effortlessly in and out sending uke's flying im more your bull in a china shop :p

PeterR
12-31-2002, 06:05 AM
Norman;

I'm not expert on your style of randori (not even expert in my style) but often the non-committed attacker is actually a mass of indecision. He comes forward a little bit, moves back, etc. As long as that is happening he is no immediate threat and in fact extremely vulnerable. Especially at the transition point between coming forward and going back you are in a beautiful position to apply any number of direct irimi techniques. Coupled with a nice Kiai you might find these people become your favourite victim. It feels good.

In a self defense situation you can meet both kinds of people. If that is your reason for training they are providing you a learning opprotunity.

To prepare for this - you do need to practice a lot of tsukuri (rapid closing of distance).
in randori i find dealing with a non commited uke the hardest thing to deal with,slow off target attacks making it difficult to apply a technique in my opionion the attack must be real even if you cant get a technique on it at the least teaches you to move quickly getting out of the attacks way is of paramount importance as if your hit its very difficult to make a technique when your flat on your back there are also the other things that have been mentioned breathing, calm, control etc which are all important too but you have to move randori is very complicated and not an exact science i havent got a strategy for it i just make it up as i go along whenever i watch footage of o'sensei or other masters they seem to glide effortlessly in and out sending uke's flying im more your bull in a china shop :p

SeiserL
12-31-2002, 09:52 AM
IMHO, for an uncommitted attack, I use a more committed waza. Enter faster and deeper to take their balance. I tend to choose who will be next by moving towards them.

Until again,

Lynn

norman telford
12-31-2002, 01:56 PM
thanks for the advise guys it will be most usefull i think my own personal problem with randori is the differance in uke's i normaly do randori with one uke and try to get behind them after ive thrown them so when they get up they have to look for me when it works there is no attack its a sucssesion of throws as when they are getting up you are there on top of them and they have no where to go obviously this doesnt work on multiple attackers then i find faster throws like tenchi nage, irimi nage in there in irimi or tenkan form (dependant on where the uke's are around you)more effective of course there sre other techniques but i find i get stuck in a revolving door of 3 or 4 throws as your thinking time is drasticaly cut making your moves more instinctive rather than trying to stick to a plan:)

Mona
01-01-2003, 04:32 PM
Hi Lynn,

The only tips I could give you are:

1) Keep your arms extended

2) You don't have to respond with a technique everytime, try to avoid uke with tenkans

3) Don't stop to think what technique you're going to use, be spontaneous

4) If there are several ukes, don't wait for one or all of them to attack *completely*, and use one or more of them to 'throw him' on the others :D

5) Think of it as a FUN exercise

p.s.: discard no.5 when Sensei decides to be one of the ukes. It simply is impossible to relax in that case. :o