PDA

View Full Version : lazy mans art.


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


shadow
11-04-2002, 08:27 PM
what do you think of the statement

"aikido is the lazy man's martial arts"

???

(it's not a quote from anywhere..... it's just a statement i thought might apply and i would just like to see others opinions).

i personally like it :)
i get the feeling that the more you practice the less effort you have to put in to make everything work.... hence the laziness.

Frp
11-04-2002, 08:52 PM
I heard weak and lazy.

And that is exactly what I'm looking for.

Pretoriano
11-04-2002, 11:49 PM
Definitively No, is the art for peace lovers,for complacence people, for estheticists, where the attack is only one and weak, and the trows are beatiful, and the hole is like a theater.

Praetorian

Ta Kung
11-05-2002, 01:31 AM
Yeah, it's lazy allright! That's why I feel confident that I still will manage to go to the dojo and get something out of it, even after my 60's. (quite a few years 'til then btw :) )

/Patrik

PS. This thread reminds me about that scene in Buddhist Fist, where an old monk is guarding a jade statue and a thief is trying to steal it. He tells the thief to come over to him, by saying "I'm much too lazy and much too tired to chase you". And then the monk whips the ninja-thieves butt, using "lazy style kung-fu". :) Great stuff!

peteswann
11-05-2002, 02:37 AM
I don't see it as Lazy or weak!!

Just because you blend and dissipate and attackers force etc. (sweeping generalisation I know) doesn't make it either of those things!! YMMV of course!! ;o)

Pete

mike lee
11-05-2002, 03:14 AM
"aikido is the lazy man's martial arts"

Train with me boy, and I'll show you some blood, sweat and tears! :grr:

ian
11-05-2002, 04:29 AM
I'd disagree - aikido should be for developing spirit and 'tightening up the slack'. Though you can use less energy in aikido as you get better, alternatively you can just have more attackers and faster attacks to keep you on form. Aikido directs the other excerise I do since it is obvious that fitness and strength, though not as important as technique and ability, are very useful - thus I actually do lots of excercise outside aikido to keep my aikido in top form, as well as lots of cutting practise.

Ian

Brian H
11-05-2002, 06:29 AM
A friend of mine used to tell me "I do martial arts now (Judo), when I am old I will do tai chi."

Kat.C
11-05-2002, 06:34 AM
what do you think of the statement

"aikido is the lazy man's martial arts"Maybe, if you don't do much ukemi.

Oh yeah, and maybe if you're working by yourself:rolleyes:

mike lee
11-05-2002, 06:42 AM
... when I am old I will do tai chi.

A great misconception.

Tai Chi Chuan training is one of the hardest things I've ever endured. The teacher began teaching the 60 students in our class by having us hold in each of the 64 stances while he slowly walked around and checked each and every one of the students' posture and the location of their hands and feet. This was in July at 11am on Sunday morning in a sub-tropical zone. It took about 20 minutes for him to check every student.

The man was sadistic. I think he actually enjoyed watching us suffer. :ki:

Then we would change to the next position and the ritual would start all over again!

Needless to say, we didn't appreciate students that could never get it right. :mad:

Practice sessions were three hours and at the end of it my legs were like rubber and I had lost about three quarts of water.

By comparison, aikido practice was easy.

P.S. There are no "easy" martial arts.

aikigreg
11-05-2002, 08:28 AM
I agree that it's a lazy man's art.

Lazy=efficient. I like being affective through utilizing uke's energy, versus other arts that are all about endurance.

Take two fighters of equal skill and endurance - the one who uses less of his own energy wins.

Bruce Baker
11-05-2002, 08:40 AM
The two edge sword applies to this comment.

Yes, I want to use less and less effort as my level of proficiency increases, and I want to be able to use the easiest means available to neutralize attacks.

On the other hand .... I don't want to be so lazy as to think it is the only martial art that applies to increasing knowledge, even though it has become the love of my life as a practicing hobby.

Only the lazy person who does not seek knowledge, is blinded by devotion to one particular art, or does not take the time to see the good in all things would classify any art as "a Lazy man's art."

I guess that would make the person who thought up this comment as "the lazy one!"

Time for Scooby Snack for that attack. Yabba-Dabba- Doo!

akiy
11-05-2002, 10:00 AM
I would disagree that "lazy" is the same thing as "efficient" as the connotations are different. What would you want your review at work to say that you are? "Jane is an extremely lazy worker" is certainly not the same as "Jane is an extremely efficient worker."

That said, I also disagree that aikido is a lazy art, just as I disagree that the art is "passive" or "defensive." It certainly is a most "active" art in my mind.

-- Jun

TomE
11-05-2002, 04:19 PM
But if it wasn't for lazyness, we'd never have invented the wheel :D

(seriously though - non-aggression, efficiency etc. is indeed not the same as lazyness)

Alfonso
11-05-2002, 05:09 PM
I like that quote but only because it's tongue in cheek. Sure, lazy is not positive-loaded word as "efficient" or "effortless".

But it's got humor

in any case for a martial art that reputedly takes long years of study to be used effectly..

and lazyness in ukemi is not particulary helpful

shihonage
11-05-2002, 06:33 PM
i personally like it :)

i get the feeling that the more you practice the less effort you have to put in to make everything work.... hence the laziness.
I get the feeling that the more you practice, the more effort you have to put in to make it work.

I would be wary of being uke for someone who thinks the opposite.

shadow
11-05-2002, 07:41 PM
oh some almost heated replies here..... looks like i touched a nerve here? some people dont like to be considered as lazy?

hey i wont deny that i'm lazy, i am! and as such it is why i still train aikido.... i've played around with a few other martial arts (BJJ, Judo, kung-fu) and the effort you have to put in vs the result you get is much higher than aikido.

when i say lazy i mean that technique we strive for is relaxed, and relaxed means not to use any overt muscular power, which means not requiring a lot of effort.

its not to say that training is lazy, i have some extreme training sessions sometimes, especially when we do randori.... but from demonstrations ive seen from my sensei and other higher ranked sensei, when technique is done without the strict form we practice during training, it looks very lazy (even ukemi when done good looks very lazy).... = :d good in my opinion.... i wouldnt still be training if i didnt hold to the idea that i can be lazy and still achieve a proficient level with years of practice haha.

oh and bruce, where did that stuff about seeking knowledge come from? what has laziness got to do with it?

i think there is somewhat of a misunderstanding of my idea of laziness.

laziness = least amount of effort for best result.

Kevin Leavitt
11-05-2002, 09:02 PM
Brian,

Come with me to St Louis sometime and you will change your opinion about tai chi!

I have experienced a master there that threw me around like a rag doll, smoked a cigarette the whole time while talking to another person.

Oh, I know of two aikidoka that study with him, one who has abandoned aikido in his early 30's because of his experiences in tai chi.

sanosuke
11-05-2002, 09:29 PM
"aikido is the lazy man's martial arts"
say again after you do fifty forward rolls, fifty backward rolls and twenty flips.:D

akiy
11-05-2002, 11:03 PM
i think there is somewhat of a misunderstanding of my idea of laziness.

laziness = least amount of effort for best result.
Sounds like you're redefining the word in a rather Humpty Dumpty manner.

Main Entry: 1la·zy
Pronunciation: 'lA-zE
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): la·zi·er; -est
Etymology: perhaps from Middle Low German lasich feeble; akin to Middle High German erleswen to become weak
Date: 1549
1 a : disinclined to activity or exertion : not energetic or vigorous b : encouraging inactivity or indolence <a lazy summer day>
2 : moving slowly : SLUGGISH
3 : DROOPY, LAX <a rabbit with lazy ears>
4 : placed on its side <lazy E livestock brand>
5 : not rigorous or strict <lazy scholarship>

There's nothing in the definition of the word "lazy" about "best result." If anything, it implies the least amount of effort needed for a barely adequate result.

Once again, I hold aikido is not a lazy art.

-- Jun

shadow
11-06-2002, 11:34 PM
hahaha yeah you get me on definition.....

but im one of the youths of today (if you can't tell by my posting manner) and we redefine words as we see fit.

i apologise that i didnt make myself clear and that lazy was perhaps the wrong word to use.

i dont think of lazy in action or mind but more like lazy in feeling.... "droopy or lax" could represent the kind of internal feeling i am thinking of. anyways as ive read in one of your posts along time ago aiky that you have met people with all different aikido feelings..... give me another 30 years and i'll show you lazy aikido! hahahahaha.

davoravo
11-07-2002, 12:33 AM
Go train for a session at Sensei Danny Falero's dojo in Randwick (he is affiliated with your dojo). That is the hardest bunch of tough nuts I've met in aikido and they will fix you if you think it is "lazy", whatever your definition.

PeterR
11-07-2002, 12:35 AM
Aside from the semantics one thing I have noticed that Aikido generally is much more accomodating to the individual. Without too much effort you can find a dojo which allows you to participate without too much effort.

In some dojos you are driven as much as the most gung ho karate dojo - in others the choice is completely up to you. Even in my own we have the full gauntlet from "I want to be a professional Aikidoist" to 40 year old housewife that wants to sweat "just a little bit" once a week.

The great thing is that it all fits.

No Aikido is not the lazy mans art but it can be an art for the more lzay to practice.

By my definition lazy means watching TV with a bag of corn chips. Anybody who gets out and does something, anything, is not lazy.

Gregory King
11-07-2002, 06:02 PM
Lazy Man's Art?

I say work smarter not harder.

Peace

akiy
11-07-2002, 06:12 PM
i dont think of lazy in action or mind but more like lazy in feeling.... "droopy or lax" could represent the kind of internal feeling i am thinking of. anyways as ive read in one of your posts along time ago aiky that you have met people with all different aikido feelings..... give me another 30 years and i'll show you lazy aikido! hahahahaha.
Interesting... I've felt a number of people with over 30 years of aikido experience and I can't say I'd describe any of them as feeling "lazy," "droopy," or "lax." Even the so-called "soft" people I've felt, I personally wouldn't use such words to describe the feeling of their aikido.

-- Jun

shadow
11-07-2002, 07:54 PM
there is someone who trains with us occassionally but has a knee injury at the moment so not so often.

but he is an extremely talented individual with a years experience as an uchi-deshi in iwama, and droopy and lax would definately describe his aikido........ and i have never ever been thrown harder than he has thrown me, and many people i train with would agree. when i get thrown by him i get up seeing stars.

but i guess its to each his own.

im really not in a position to hold a decent argument due to my lack of experience, so i guess i will just work on my feeling and perhaps one day i will get an oppurtunity to demonstrate it all to you.

i dont deny the idea of hard work or anything, i guess my head just thinks about things differently.

everyone calls me lazy, yet i do a lot of activity, but i try to keep an effortless mindset in everything i do, which i guess gives off the impression of laziness.

akiy
11-07-2002, 08:25 PM
I guess it just comes down to my own feelings that such words as "lazy," "droopy," and "lax" carry no positive connotations in my thoughts regarding aikido; trying to make the words describe positive attributes in aikido, to me, smacks of Humpty Dumpty language.

Frankly, I doubt any of the shihan with whom I have trained would take such words as compliments should I attribute them to their aikido. As such, I disagree in describing the art of aikido as such.

-- Jun

shadow
11-10-2002, 04:52 PM
whilst the word 'lazy' has many negative conotations associated with it i have struggled to find the right word that conveys the feeling or principle i mean. i blame the english language and our lack of descriptive words. whilst the word 'efficient' could come close, it doesn't really embody what i try to say as it is kind of mechanical in its description.

since i study biology and in australia i will give an example of what i mean in terms of this.

a kangaroo moving at speeds of less than 8km/h and greater than 30km/h use a higher expenditure of energy than whilst travelling somewhere between these speeds.

when i speak of lazy, this is what i am trying to say. not doing too much energetically or too little, both physically and mentally. i personally think more in terms of avoiding the overexpenditure of energy which is why the term lazy fits very well to me. but there is a point where too little can be done too and i didnt really make any of this clear.

so my apologies if i have caused offence and aggrevation.

mike lee
11-11-2002, 02:37 AM
The proper word is "relaxed." :ki:

shadow
11-11-2002, 04:17 AM
re·lax Pronunciation Key (r-lks)

v. re·laxed, re·lax·ing, re·lax·es

v. tr.

1. To make lax or loose: relax one's grip.

2. To make less severe or strict: relax a curfew.

3. To reduce in intensity; slacken: relax one's efforts.

4. To relieve from tension or strain: The warm bath relaxed me.

v. intr.

1. To take one's ease; rest.

2. To become lax or loose.

3. To become less severe or strict.

4. To become less restrained or tense.

what was this about not describing anyones aikido as lax?

as i said before.... blame the english language!!!

mike lee
11-11-2002, 04:22 AM
4. To relieve from tension or strain: The warm bath relaxed me.

In reference to aikido training, of the definitions of "relaxed" that you offered, No. 4 would be the best. (Words often have multiple defenitions that are applied to diferent situations, based on the context.)

opherdonchin
11-11-2002, 10:13 AM
Frankly, I doubt any of the shihan with whom I have trained would take such words as compliments should I attribute them to their aikidoI'm not sure what a shihan is, but I've certainly heard the word 'lazy' used for AiKiDo and with positive connotations in both Seidokan and ASU seminars. In Seidokan, many of the top instructors regularly talked about being 'too lazy' to do techniques wrong. "Why should I put in so much effort? I'm lazy!" Was something that I heard again and again. In ASU, it's much less common, but I'd swear that I heard either Gleason or Choate saying the same sort of thing.

I mean, it's partly tongue-in-cheeck, but that doesn't make it any less of an interesting perspective on what your goals are supposed to be.

Mike Higgins
11-12-2002, 05:42 PM
I've just done an hour and a half of ukemi from a 2nd dan who wanted to practise his kaiten nage.He took the greatest of joy watching me going from one end of the dojo to the other :D ,almost as much joy as i had recieving it!!! :freaky: Lazy mans art????? hell no!!!! :eek: