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ian
11-04-2002, 11:12 AM
I'm a trad-aiki person, but am interested in the structure that tomiki tried to develop. Would any tomiki people be so obliging to put the six koryu no kata or classical kata, listed with short technique description (or names which both tomiki and trad-aiki people would understand) on the 'techniques' section?
(what do you think Jun?)

Afterall, we have detailed descriptions of weapons suburi, why not a brief overview of these?

cheers,
Ian

ian
11-04-2002, 11:15 AM
P.S. in return our club are currently editing footage for a (free) weapons video which will cover 8 bokken suburi, 5 kumitachi, one bokken kata, 2 jo kata and 7 kumijo - a long process but we should have the finished product for the suburi (with instructional voiceover, freeze-frames, and slowed shots) within one month.

Ian

PeterR
11-05-2002, 02:56 AM
That's quite a request made even more difficult by the variance of names in non-Tomiki dojos. In any case Tomiki didn't just try - he succeeded in developing a very nice structure.

I would suggest to start go to http://www.tomiki.org/ and click on Standards and Curriculum. The animated gifs under Kata have descriptions, the rest are lists.

I am not familiar enough with non-Tomiki names to be of much help beyond that.
I'm a trad-aiki person, but am interested in the structure that tomiki tried to develop. Would any tomiki people be so obliging to put the six koryu no kata or classical kata, listed with short technique description (or names which both tomiki and trad-aiki people would understand) on the 'techniques' section?

(what do you think Jun?)

ian
11-05-2002, 03:58 AM
Cheers Peter,

Thanks for the site. Do you know why Prof. Tomiki organised them in such a manner? For example the Junana Hon no Kata tends to be arranged as strikes (i.e. techniques towards the head), techniques towards the elbow, techniques towards the wrist, techniques towards the body.

As a trad-aiki person I don't see why these should be organised as such. For me I would consider the first kata should include the most important and effective techniques, from which the rest derive e.g. ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo are all obviously related, so would it not be better to cover ikkyo in the first kata, and leave the others for subsequent kata? (or is this true for the tomiki ata as well?)

Also, any aiki-jitsu guys out there; there tends to be a more formal structure from beginning to advanced techniques - what do you think to the way your teaching is structured?

Ian

P.S. I'm not trying to bash other styles - I'm interested in teaching in such a way that it is easy to provide a minimal comprehensive self-defence set of techniques (for shorter term students), whilst allowing further development in these as core techniques for advanced students. Aikido techniques are all related in some way, but the relationship between them is not easily explained (as far as I am aware).

PeterR
11-05-2002, 04:13 AM
Done a bit of Aikiaki stuff myself and in my opinion the first technique (shomen-ate) is the most effective bar none. It is I think the reason Tomiki put it there.

The Junanahon are classed:

atemi waza (at least one of those is low).

hiji waza which of course includes ikkyo

tekubiwaza

and the uki (floating) waza.

The later are considered the most advanced and in reality are combinations of hiji and tekubi techniques combined with kuzushi and timing.

As far as Ikkyo through Rokkyo I am not sure when those came into common use. Shioda uses the same but Tomiki of course pre-dates him. His nomenclature uses a mix of older names and more modern - I think the goal was clarity. A Tomiki stylist can pretty much describe exactly what is happening using the names but then again so can more advanced Aikikai people.

L. Camejo
11-05-2002, 06:18 AM
Just to add to Peter's thoughts.

Tomiki wanted to structure the Aikido system into an "educational budo" something similar to Kano's move towards modernising jujitsu into judo.

The nomenclature is designed for ease of explanation while teaching, as well as dividing the techniques by the area of the body which was being manipulated to apply the technique.

E.g:

Hiji (elbow) waza

Oshi Taoshi=Ikkyo

Tekubi (wrist) waza

Tenkai Kotegaeshi=Shi ho nage

Kotehineri/Tenkai Kotehineri=Sankyo

As in the case of tenkai kotegaeshi, since there are many techniques that allow you to turn through four directions while doing them (e.g. tenkai kotehineri or sankyo ura), this was not an effective name for describing that technique, hence tenkai kotegaeshi (turning wrist twist?)

Also, there is a book by Dr. Lee Ah Loi -"Tomiki Aikido-Randori and Koryu no Kata" that gives a good idea of the different classical kata. The naming however is in Tomiki style.

Who knows, I may take up the challenge of creating a decoder for the Tomiki/Traditional naming. I also have a bit of Aikikai experience as well.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers all.

L.C.:ai::ki:

ian
11-06-2002, 03:33 AM
Good luck with that Larry - I think Peter is right in that the Tomiki system of naming seems more obvious. Most of the clubs I've been to in trad-aiki name things differently e.g. kokyu-nage or sokumen irimi-nage, kokyu-nage or sumi-otoshi or zenponage etc I was also reading some aiki-jitsu stuff and their gokyo was very different to what I would call gokyo.

Ian

P.S. I've developed a list of the main 8 techniques which I think cover the main movements - and thus can be intergrated in a manner allowing complete responsiveness to uke (including counters techniques etc). In my mind, if these are learnt well the aikidoka would be suited for a large variety of self-defence situations and could do randori (our version of it!) effectively and fluidly. Any comments would be welcome.

1. ikkyo

2. irimi-nage

3. shiho-nage

4. tenchi-nage

5. kaiten-nage

6. kokyu-nage (i.e. sokumen irimi-nage, towards the head)

7. kote-gaeshi

8. sumi-otoshi (kokyu-nage, to the inside of the attacking elbow)

Ian

L. Camejo
11-06-2002, 09:51 AM
Checking out the koryu dai san (Go Shin no Kata), I'm realising that there are some techniques there that have no equivalent in trad. Aikido that I know of.

For example, uchi tenkai nage (#2 Tachi waza) or gedan ate (#3 hanza handachi) of the koryu dai san.

Any ideas Peter? Anyone?

Also, mae otoshi is kokyu nage in, traditional aikido, as are a few other tech. like gyakugamae ate sometimes. I think this translation will need some pictures. :)

Ian: Not a bad list, but I'd add shomen ate and what we call uki otoshi to that list. Always good to have simple, straight line, quickly applied techniques for SD or randori situations. Don't want to leave the back exposed too much :)

BTW, Peter, finally got my dan certificate from Osaka. Kewl :D

L.C.:ai::ki:

deepsoup
11-06-2002, 11:47 AM
Checking out the koryu dai san (Go Shin no Kata), I'm realising that there are some techniques there that have no equivalent in trad. Aikido that I know of.

For example, uchi tenkai nage (#2 Tachi waza) or gedan ate (#3 hanza handachi) of the koryu dai san.

Any ideas Peter? Anyone?
Hi Larry,

My local trad. dojo (Kai Shin Kai) would immediately recognise that #2 tachi-waza as a (fairly standard) uchi kaiten nage, I'm not sure about that gedanate though.

Mae otoshi they call by the same name, and gyakugamaeate they generally call sokumen irimi nage (or just 'sokumen' for short) rather than kokyu nage.

I'm still rather confused by what 'kokyu nage' is, and I sometimes get the feeling a lot of other people are too.

My instructor once asked Nariyama Shihan which technique in the Shodokan syllabus is kokyu nage, and was told "All of them".

(I guess on the grounds that there should be "breath power" in all your aikido. Then again, he says that when he was a beginner at Honbu he asked a lot of stupid questions, so maybe Shihan just told him that to shut him up! :))

Sean

x

ps: Congratulations on receiving that certificate.

akiy
11-06-2002, 12:00 PM
The term "kokyunage" in Aikikai parlance refers, unfortunately, to both a specific technique (which is very close to sokumen iriminage) as well as a group of techniques (often also referred to as the "unnamed" techniques).

Sometimes during tests, people will be called to do "kokyunage" from a certain attack (eg morotedori). In this instance, I believe the testing people are calling for the specific technique. If they wanted to see a lot of the "unnamed" techniques, I'd believe they'd ask for jiyuwaza from a certain technique...

As far as Tomiki aikido goes, I noticed one gentleman in the beginners class here last night who was doing just the footwork of the tegatana no kata. I asked him about it and he was surprised I knew it was from Tomiki aikido; he had practiced it years and years ago. I let him know there was a 7th dan Tomiki teacher just a ways away if he was interested...

-- Jun

darin
11-06-2002, 07:37 PM
I have had a chance to do a little bit of Tomiki aikido. I have found the techniques similar to Yoseikan. Actually I would say that Yoseikan is very close to Tomiki in many ways. Yoseikan also has several kata but the names of techniques are different.

For example:

Ikkyo - Robusei

Nikkyo - Kotekudaki

Sankyo - Ikichigai

Iriminage - Mukaidoshi

Hijishime - Hijikudaki

I wonder why the names would be different as Mochizuki Minoru learned aikido at the same time as Tomiki Kenji.

PeterR
11-06-2002, 07:59 PM
I have had a chance to do a little bit of Tomiki aikido. I have found the techniques similar to Yoseikan. Actually I would say that Yoseikan is very close to Tomiki in many ways. Yoseikan also has several kata but the names of techniques are different.

I wonder why the names would be different as Mochizuki Minoru learned aikido at the same time as Tomiki Kenji.
Hi Darin;

Always get a chuckle out of people referring to Aikikai style as traditional - there being a more older form expressed by the old uchideshi.

As I understand it at that time there really wasn't much in the way of official nomenclature - Ueshiba M. did a technique and people tried to emulate. The nameing systems used by different organizations were attempts to fill that need.

Tomiki's main drive was for clarity. Some names are taken from other arts but there ability to describe what was happening was key. Mochizuki may have had something else on his mind. In anycase both men drew on their experience which was a bit different from each other. Mochizuki started later and was exposed to different arts than Tomiki, not to mention probably a different mind set. The list you gave was interesting - can you describe their literal meanings.

darin
11-06-2002, 10:21 PM
Hi Peter,

My teacher told me that Mochizuki used these names for the techniques so he could remember them easily. My personal oppinion is that he did this to separate his style from Ueshiba's.

I read somewhere that when Mochizuki went to France he tested aikijujitsu against savate, boxing, wrestling and fencing. According to him, he found aikjujitsu difficult to use so he changed to judo and kendo winning easily. Upon returning to Japan he suggested to Ueshiba that aikido be altered to suit modern times but Ueshiba wasn't interested. Anyway Mochizuki went on to do his own thing.

You are right about Mochizuki coming from a background of mixed martial arts. Its also possible he took the names from jujitsu and judo.

I only met him once in 1996 in Shizuoka. Interesting person. I wish I had this question on my mind back then.

Ikkyo - Robuse rowing a boat

Nikkyo - Kotekudaki wrist smash

Sankyo - Ikichigai crossing or passing by...

Iriminage - Mukaidoshi facing drop

Hijishime - Hijikudaki elbow smash

Robuse is interesting. The kanji is E. I can't seem to find this combination in my dictionaries.

PeterR
11-06-2002, 11:19 PM
Thanks Darin;

Those names are certainly more colorful on translation - love wrist smash for nikyo. Probably as indicative of a different mind set as you are going to get.

Both Tomiki and Mochizuki came from a Judo background - I think Tomiki was the stronger competitor and was probably far better versed in many of the Koryu being practiced at the Kodokan at the time.

Mochizuki had more of a sword and karate background than Tomiki although interestingly Tomiki's life long student Obha was also quite well versed in sword and karate. Apparently between Tomiki and Ohba this was very clear when watching them do the same kata.

There's a point behind this ramble. Part of the Koryu Dai San of the Shodokan contains sword kata incorporated by Ohba. The only time I have seen anything vaguely similar was with one of Chiba's students. Not sure where each comes from, what about Yoseikan? I suspect all three are not based on Aiki-ken.

darin
11-07-2002, 12:47 AM
Your welcome Peter,

When my teacher was young he was invited by Mochizuki to go training with him and Tomiki. To this day my teacher says that Tomiki had the best aikido he has ever seen and experienced.

Mochizuki's koryu knowledge probably came from other schools. I know from his book that he studied various styles of swordsmanship, weapons and jujitsu. He also did kendo and Shotokan karate. Then formulated his own style.

Yoseikan aikido has a sword kata. Its called kentai ichi no kata ̈v̌`. The kata is done with a partner. The movements start with sword against sword then empty hand against empty hand. I don't think its aiki-ken. Seems to be derived from kenjutsu. I wonder is aiki-ken a new art?

PeterR
11-07-2002, 01:23 AM
Your welcome When my teacher was young he was invited by Mochizuki to go training with him and Tomiki.
Way cool - so envious of the old guys.
Yoseikan aikido has a sword kata. Its called kentai ichi no kata ̈v̌`. The kata is done with a partner. The movements start with sword against sword then empty hand against empty hand. I don't think its aiki-ken. Seems to be derived from kenjutsu. I wonder is aiki-ken a new art?
There are better people on this board to give the origins of aiki-ken. Hope they chime in. I have to quickly add that the sword kata (sword vs sword, sword vs hand) are designed to give only a quick introduction. You want more - you are expected to go out and seek a teacher specifically for that. I know that is what my teacher did - he was sent by Tomiki to study Aikido with Kobyashi H. who arranged for sword instruction from another master. I am busy preparing for a dan test and opening up a dojo - I need to get both those settled before I start looking for sword instruction. Had some before but so little I really don't even know what to look for.

By the way where in Japan are you.

darin
11-07-2002, 03:00 AM
Is it easy to get a teaching license in Japan? I always thought that Japanese schools were rather beaurocratic. How about gradings? Can you write up certificates by yourself or do you have to get a senior instructor to do it? I know here that my teacher does the certificates. He's sometimes too suspicious...

I am actually now back in Australia. For the past year and a half I was living in Tokyo on a working holiday visa. I finally got a sponser for another job in Yokohama so I am waiting for my working visa. Been about three months and still no reply. I called the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Tokyo. They said its still processing.

Your living in Himeji right? I have been there only once in 1996. Nice castle!

Its good that you are able to train in Japan. I was working day and night so I had no time to train. Hopefully I will get better hours in my next job.

PeterR
11-07-2002, 06:47 PM
Darin;

I will be Shihan's assistent even though I will be running the dojo. I really don't want anything to do with grading this time and since he is so close no problem.

I am a known entity for him.

He knows what I know.

He knows I'll teach what I'm supposed to.

I know more than enough to take a class of raw beginners and get them moving in the right direction.

My assistant is a young Nidan who was team captain of one of the strongest Shiai teams in Japan. This is really good for me because

a) my Japanese is rudimentry.

b) my randori needs work and he is really good at it.

Peter R.
Is it easy to get a teaching license in Japan? I always thought that Japanese schools were rather beaurocratic. How about gradings? Can you write up certificates by yourself or do you have to get a senior instructor to do it? I know here that my teacher does the certificates. He's sometimes too suspicious...