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Vincentharris
11-02-2002, 01:23 PM
Hi,

This is my very first post so here it goes. I'm crazy about Aikido and I would like to learn more about the code of Bushido. I'm a Christian too and I'm wondering if I'm creating a conflict of interest. All opinions are welcome. Thanks.

aikilouis
11-02-2002, 02:18 PM
Bushido is the generic word for the different rules of conduct the military class of Old Time Japan had to follow. Its chief principle was to make the samurai a perfect warrior with extreme loyalty to his lord to death if necessary (and even prove it through ritual suicide).
Needless to say that some elements of Bushido are strongly against Christian (and Aikido) ethics. Fortunately the context of modern times are very different from Medieval Japan, and Bushido is out of date. So don't worry, no one lives by the Bushido anymore, and those who declare to do it actually have chosen what rules they pleased to follow in an idealized vision of the samurai era.

ChristianBoddum
11-02-2002, 02:50 PM
Hi Vincent !

Just keep your focus on Christ and you'll be fine,

on sundays I now have to choose between morning sermon or morning training ,so instead

of feeling it as a dilemma I focus on staying

with the Lord no matter where I am and it works out.

All the best.

yours - Chr.B.

ChristianBoddum
11-02-2002, 03:08 PM
Hi again !

Just curious,does your dojo have a homepage -

I've never heard of ronin Bushido Aikido before,ronin Bushido could be the name of a club,but since I don't know I am a bit puzzled,ronin and Bushido as concepts are normally not related to Aikido.

Yours - Chr.B.

Vincentharris
11-02-2002, 04:21 PM
sure, the website is www.roninbushido.com

Hope you enjoy it !

Btw, how long have you been training ?

ChristianBoddum
11-02-2002, 04:36 PM
Hi Vincent !

Since spring '96 so by aikido standards I'm still fairly new to it!!

yours - Chr.B.

Aiki Teacher
11-02-2002, 06:41 PM
Is Ronin Budo Hombu or non Hombu affiliated? Looked at the site and could not tell.

Kevin Wilbanks
11-02-2002, 09:44 PM
That Ronin Bushido Aikido is pretty good, but it doesn't compare to Super Turbo Shogun Aikido.

Vincentharris
11-03-2002, 09:23 AM
I don't know if it's Hombu or not, I think I've heard the word mentioned a time or to. To be honest, everytime that Sempai comes to class (Ron Boyd) I feel like I'm in a room with a celebrity. I'd ask him for his autograph but I know that'd be kind of stupid.

What is Super Turbo Shogun Aikido ?

Vincentharris
11-03-2002, 09:28 AM
Didn't the Hagakure change Bushido to where Samurai couldn't commit suicide anymore ? I thought I read that somewhere.

Bruce Baker
11-03-2002, 10:59 AM
I probably shouldn't get into this but since I am writing this on a Sunday, I am feeling particularly sparky on this chilly November day.

First of all, too many people fail to realize that they put their faith in Jesus, or Christ, or whatever they are spending their money on to acquire a ticket to heaven without realizing they are propping up some internal turmoil in their mind, their lives, or the whatever is throwing them out of syncronization with society to find balance.

It is not a bad thing, but when it becomes the cure all for all the ills, and you stop looking, learning, and growing as a human being it becomes a drug that takes away your clarity, your embodiment to be a human being.

Realize before you can search and bring other ways of life into your little Christian bubble, you will have to come to grips with the true roots of what your religion is trying to teach you without being a sheep of some shepard who is leading you on his path, not one you have chosen for yourself.

Realizing this, you will have begun the path of a warrior, an independant human being capable of thought, decisions, and the clarity of thought will begin to guide you on your own path.

So, although I don't really condemn letting Jesus or God guide you, I do condemn those who take it as a cure all to all the problems of life. God is the universe. You are here to learn from the universe, not have the universe learn from you. Once you realize all religions are created by man, and the universe is what it is, even though it is interpreted in many different ways by man, then you will begin to think for yourself to understand the clarity it takes to understand to be a thinking warrior who is the code of Bushido, not just someone who follows the ways and actions of others who would influence you to their way of life.

I know it is a bit complicated, but the mind thinks the thoughts and the body does as it is instructed. In order to have a clear unfettered mind, you must not think of what you must do, but be able to do what must be done without complicated intricate thoughts affected by blockages of emotional turmoil.

Thought turns to deed, action, without words.

Words temper the anger of those who are not sure, but your own convictions will stop those who are not truly committed to actions.

Hence the warrior will fight if need be, but will stop violence by his presence.

That should be deep enough for now.

Get a handle on how your Christianity is the same or different from the other religions of the world, and find the strength within yourself to have these convictions without the encouragement of others. Once you do this, you will easily adapt and understand the code of bushido. Without this, it will merely be another school lesson that is heard and forgotten in the passage of time.

By the way, this is my advice from my own view and experience in finding the key to faith between my Christian education, and years of experience with searching for truth between the words spoken by Christians, and the deeds they perform in their actual lives.

Think about it, but you will have to go and find your own answers to fit your life.

ChristianBoddum
11-03-2002, 11:06 AM
Hi Vincent !

Kevin should have added a smilie,he was making a joke,humor doesn't always work in discussions.

But seriously there are a few things on the homepage that make me and others wonder,

the referring to aikido as an internal style

is strange - normally this applies to Tai Chi Chuan.

Your Sensei may be the real thing,but the information on lineage is kind of weak.

The information of the transition from Karate

to Aikido is unclear.

I've heard of teachers altering their Karate to something that resembles Aikido superficially because it is en vogue,so they

can keep their dojo running,thát is my concern,a wolf in sheeps clothing kind of situation.

Since you are a newbie don't talk much about this,observe and attend classes,check out all

you can especially on this site.

Aikido is a wonderful and demanding art that

we all want spread in its truest form, so let us know how it works for you.

yours - Chr.B.

Thomas Froman
11-03-2002, 06:57 PM
I have been a student at the Ronin Bushido Aikido Lousville Chapter for many years and would like to clear up some of the confusion. This is not a wolf in sheeps clothing situation. Sensei Boyd has studied Karate and some other martial arts before Aikido. However, He has studied Aikido under Richard Rood who studied under Ueshiba. Sensei Boyd also has studied at a dojo in Japan and has received ranking from them. I also have several good Aikido books and we do all the same things-including the 18 basic exercises and Randori. As for the name Ronin Bushido-We use Ronin to mean masterless, meaning we are individuals. Bushido is the Samurai Code-We try to live by the seven virtues of the samurai. We do practice Tai Chi to help us build our internal strength. I believe aikido is an internal style-it lot of it depends on using your ki. If you try to muscle on a lot of techniques they will not work. You instead must relax and use chi or ki-thus the ki in aikido. I don't know how long you have been training but some aikido schools concentrate more on ki than others. You may want to ask your Sensei about Ki if you haven't been exposed to it yet. Vince, as for your question about Bushido and Christianity- Sensei Boyd is also a Deacon in a Baptist Church (I didn't know this for a long time myself) and I'm sure would be glad to answer any questions you have about tying Aikido in with religion. If anybody else has any questions about our club (or anything else for that matter), let me know and I will do the best I can to answer them.

Pretoriano
11-03-2002, 09:20 PM
There is no conflict at all, if you know how to put everything in its place, Sr Vincent.

Give to Caessar what... give to God what...

Everything in its place.

Aikido, Bushido, Chritianity?

Learn about 5 good virgins and 5 bad virgins parábole in Bible, Mathew? thats could be related to Bushido

Any question?

Praetorian

Vincentharris
11-03-2002, 10:00 PM
I'd like to clear the matter up myself. I've never questioned the intentions of Sensei Boyd or anyone affiliated with the dojo. I'm pretty new to living in the WORD and I wanted to make sure that I wasn't compromising anything. When I was going to church regularly and studying another form (several years ago) I was basically ostricized until I chose to leave that dojo. I wasn't treated alot better after that so I just checked out of any church until I got married. Why haven't I brought any of my concerns to my Sensei ? Just shy I guess, I swear I feel like I'm in the room with a celebrity when he's there; like I want to ask for his autograph or something. There are plenty of other instructors there too but they don't have the time to be answering some stupid A** questions from someone who probably doesn't knwo what he's talking about. I don't like bothering them cause I'm not the only person in that dojo and osmeone probably has something much more important to ask. Sorry if I've confused anyone or stepped on any toes. I really didn't mean any disrespect. God Bless.

Kevin Wilbanks
11-03-2002, 10:46 PM
If your God has much to do with making you the shrinking, self-effacing character you portray yourself as, I say get a new one. May I suggest joining the order of Our Lady Of The Cowering Chihuahua?

tedehara
11-04-2002, 12:08 AM
Didn't the Hagakure change Bushido to where Samurai couldn't commit suicide anymore ? I thought I read that somewhere.
I believe you might have been reading about the elimination of junshi.
From Budoshoshinshu:The Warrior's Primer of Daidoji Yuzan

Formerly, the custom of junshi* flourished in our land, but after its nationwide prohibition by the Bakufu in the Kanbun (1661-1663) era, its practice has ceased...pg 123

*Junshi (also called tsuifuku): the custom of committing suicide by sepuku (hara-kiri) or some other means at the death of one's lord. It was prohibited by the government in 1663. pg 127 - trans. William Scott Wilson

ChristianBoddum
11-04-2002, 04:40 AM
Hi again !

To Thomas F. : Thanks for clearing things up !

To Vincent : I know how it feels to approach

a highranking sensei,because they often are

also very much Zen-masters it feels like trying to have a conversation with a moving rock,a kind one though !

I wish you all the best !!

yours - Chr.B.

Dangus
11-04-2002, 05:13 AM
I'm probably religiously closest to the Ba'hai, who believe that basically none of the major Judeo-Christian/Islamic/etc. belief systems truly represent God, but instead, all are a facet of the giant crystal of God, so to speak. I also have a lot of Buddist influence, I think that's hard to avoid when you're a martial artist, but I think Christ and any of the awakened would have gotten along quite well. I don't see the point as making religion a barrier against things that are inherently good things, such as Aikido, which is an art based in peace and self-control. I dare say that Aikido will help make you a better Christian, in the true sense of Christianity, assuming you bother to learn the lessons it presents to you.

Vincentharris
11-04-2002, 08:02 AM
I'd like to clarify this matter for the last time. I have never questioned what my dojo or anyone affiliated with it and they don't go on and on about Bushido this and Bushido that. My interest in Bushido is purely just me being nosey and trying to make sure that I'm not compromising anything on either side. I didn't know about the seven virtues, but that makes perfect sense cause now I know what those 7 wood carvings on the wall mean. I can't believe I didn't ask someone at the dojo but I don't want to sound or look like a dim bulb. I'm sure there's someone else that has something much more important to ask. I don't like to consider myself a "shrinking, self-effacing character" I'm just trying to be respectful to my Sensei and not ask him stupid questions that I'm sure he's probably answered a thousand times. If you would like a little background about my concerns with my Christianity, trust me it's a VERY long story that I would have to explain in another format. Needless to say, I had my feelings hurt in the church because I was studying another form a long time ago. Thanks for everyone's input and attention to this matter. Now I just hope it doesn't get me in trouble with anyone. God Bless you all.

tedehara
11-04-2002, 08:56 AM
Not everybody is associated with Aikikai or Hombu Dojo.
:confused:

From what I've seen and heard, if you want to live a Christian life, Aikido can help you. If you want to truly study Aikido, Christianity can help you. I've known people who were very active both in Aikido and their church.

Just like there are different views of Christianity, there are different views of Aikido. The style I practice considers Aikido to be an internal art. In fact, it has incorporated some tai chi into it's exercise routine. Other people have other ideas about Aikido.

When you feel comfortable enough, you should start talking to your instructors. It's not only the Christian thing to do, but it's also a common Aikido practice.
;)

Vincentharris
11-04-2002, 09:00 AM
That makes me feel better. Thanks alot.

ian
11-04-2002, 10:59 AM
Its funny - when people talk about 'internal arts' I don't think about religion - I think about developing ki flow. In my mind the internal/external is a different distinction from budo/jitsu. At the end of the day Vince, if you are looking for easy answers from outside (i.e. an easy religion to latch on to) your quest will end in misery. Best to educate yourself (religious or otherwise), but to make your own decisions based on experience. Bushido is a cruel and ruthless code for people who were constantly fighting to protect their lives. Each religion or belief system tends to fit the environment in which it develops. If there are enternal truths they don't require indoctrination from someone else.

Ian

mike lee
11-04-2002, 11:20 AM
I don't think that aikido was ever meant to contain all the answers — it was just meant to open the door.

Aikido has a lot to offer, and my life is much richer for it. Aikido is deep and infinite. It's also compatible with most mainstream religions, and, if practiced properly, those who train in aikido can become highly adaptible and tolerant, expanding the depth and breadth ot their religious convictions.

I think that of all the martial arts, aikido is one of the best choices for those that are also involved in a spiritual quest.

:do:

MattRice
11-04-2002, 01:17 PM
Hi Vince

I don't think this is a stupid question, and I think you could approach your sensei with it without fear of...well...anything. I think that Aikido and Christianity are complimentary as has been said already. Seems to me O'sensei's ideals that Aikido be an art of compassion are compatible with Christian morale beliefs.

I would like to point out that comments like
If your God has much to do with making you the shrinking, self-effacing character you portray yourself as, I say get a new one. May I suggest joining the order of Our Lady Of The Cowering Chihuahua?
are mean-spirited and are perhaps not consistent with the spirit of Christianity OR Aikido philosophy.

Kevin Leavitt
11-04-2002, 03:13 PM
There is a quote in the "Art of Peace" by O'Sensei, translated by John Stevens, that states that in the Art of Peace (Aikido) that there are rooms for all beliefs and all religions.

That said, some people attributed different meaning and interpretation to customs/courtesies/philosophies, etc, therefore, what may be okay for one person, may not be okay for another.

It is a personal choice that one must make. But it is the person who sets his/her own boundaries....not the art of aikido.

Kevin Wilbanks
11-04-2002, 03:55 PM
I would like to point out that comments like

are mean-spirited and are perhaps not consistent with the spirit of Christianity OR Aikido philosophy.
Bah. From what I've seen of the history of Christian churches, their philosophy, and gathered from my limited associations with people who were fervent about the accompanying "spirit", I'm glad not to be associated with it. I've yet to hear of a sect that doesn't have twisted, unhealthy things to say about sexuality and intimacy, and I won't even go into the staggering history of bloodshed and oppression justified by 'mine's better than yours' church-jockeying. In fact, I'll be happy to go on record as saying Christianity is one of the worst things that ever happened to the human race.

As far as my relationship to the spirit of Aikido philosophy, how would you know? In my view, there's a lot more to it than emulating Mister Rogers in all things. If someone is intent on playing the role of a professional victim, obliging them with a little sauce is as likely to be of benefit to them as hugs, coddling, and singing Kumbaya.

Richard Elliott
11-04-2002, 04:23 PM
Hi,

This is my very first post so here it goes. I'm crazy about Aikido and I would like to learn more about the code of Bushido. I'm a Christian too and I'm wondering if I'm creating a conflict of interest. All opinions are welcome. Thanks.
Hello Vince. Like yourself, I am a Christian.

The fact that you've opened yourself up on a forum tells me you have a some nerve. I always let the instructors know where I stand. They have seemed to appreciate it. To me, whether the chief instructor or yudansha are Christians, Muslims or atheists doesn't matter as long as they are competent and respectfull of your beliefs as you should be of them. If at some point in your training "beliefs" get to be a problem, you might let your Sensei know.

Get to know your Sensei(s). One of the best teachers I've had Sensei Ross Robertson is not a Christian, but a great teacher, good guy.

Don't worry about any derogatory cryptic crap you might hear, no matter where it comes from.

It's been my experience that the people that talk a lot about being "warriors" have very little understanding of it beyond some romantic notions of medieval Japanese esoterica.

As in any beginning the student must develop discipline,in Aikido, no less than your Christian life. This means having to do what someone else says, to follow instructions, concentrate, and learn the lessons. This means you have to trust the teacher. So choosing the teacher is your responsibility (assuming the teacher accepts you.). Choose wisely. Your martial arts training should augment the path you've already chosen.

Richard

aikilouis
11-04-2002, 05:16 PM
I'd be glad to know what the aforementioned seven virtues of the Samurai are. Just for curiosity. Thanks in advance.

Thomas Froman
11-04-2002, 07:36 PM
The Seven Virtues of the Samurai are Courtesy, Charity, Sincerity, Honor, Honesty, Loyalty and Bravery. Though I am not a very religious person myself, I don't see how these would conflict with Christianity or any other major religion.

G DiPierro
11-04-2002, 09:06 PM
However, He has studied Aikido under Richard Rood who studied under Ueshiba. Sensei Boyd also has studied at a dojo in Japan and has received ranking from them.If anybody else has any questions about our club (or anything else for that matter), let me know and I will do the best I can to answer them.Actually, I do have a few questions. Is this Richard Rood the same person as the former WWF wrestler "Ravishing Rick Rude?" Or is this a different Richard Rood?

Either way, I couldn't find any record of a person by that name who teaches Aikido. Could you provide more information about him? When you say he studided under Ueshiba, I assume you mean the second Doshu. How long did he study at Hombu? Under what auspices does he currently teach in the United States?

Also, the fact that your teacher studied "at a dojo in Japan" does not necessarily imply legitimacy. There are a lot of dojos in Japan, and, like anywhere else, some of them are probably more legitimate than others. At which dojo, specifically, did he practice? What was the highest rank that he recieved? Is he still affiliated with that organization? If not, why not? This is the type of infrormation that people here would need to know in order to verify claims of legitimacy. Saying that the techniques look a lot like what you have seen in Aikido books and that your teacher studied at "a dojo in Japan" is not sufficient.

Vincentharris
11-04-2002, 10:08 PM
Mr. DiPierro,

Why are you being so disrespectful ? This post is incredibly rude and completely unfounded. I think you owe someone an apology.

mike lee
11-05-2002, 03:00 AM
I think you owe someone an apology.

A true warrior never expects an apology.

Time to grow a hide, greenhorn. ;)

Wormwood
11-05-2002, 06:29 AM
A true warrior never expects an apology.

Time to grow a hide, greenhorn. ;)
I know that you said it somewhat in jest, but who here can claim to be a 'true warrior'. Have you or any one here every killed anyone, or participated in a war. I imagine those who are 'true warrior's here are civil, and would not treat a new individual with such disrespect. I think that you are mixing up the 'true warrior' with some sort of 'take-it-like-a-man' attitude. Maybe I am defining the 'true warrior' wrongly, but I don't think that that term should be used so lightly.

Nathan

Dangus
11-05-2002, 06:53 AM
A true ninja never takes(or gives) an apology....

Kat.C
11-05-2002, 06:58 AM
Bah. From what I've seen of the history of Christian churches, their philosophy, and gathered from my limited associations with people who were fervent about the accompanying "spirit", I'm glad not to be associated with it. I've yet to hear of a sect that doesn't have twisted, unhealthy things to say about sexuality and intimacy, and I won't even go into the staggering history of bloodshed and oppression justified by 'mine's better than yours' church-jockeying. In fact, I'll be happy to go on record as saying Christianity is one of the worst things that ever happened to the human race.
Is there a reason you wrote this? You seem to have greatly misunderstood the point of this thread, or are you just trying to stir things up?

Wormwood
11-05-2002, 07:00 AM
A true ninja never takes(or gives) an apology....
That's much better. :)

Nathan

Kat.C
11-05-2002, 07:01 AM
A true ninja never takes(or gives) an apology....
Perhaps they need to be taught some manners:)

mike lee
11-05-2002, 07:02 AM
... but who here can claim to be a 'true warrior'.

Being a true warrior has nothing to do with killing people — it has to do with overcoming the demon within. evileyes

:do:

Wormwood
11-05-2002, 07:14 AM
Being a true warrior has nothing to do with killing people — it has to do with overcoming the demon within. evileyes

:do:
… and overcoming the demon within has nothing to do with whether or not someone should or should not apologize or ask for an apology.

Nathan

mike lee
11-05-2002, 07:20 AM
… and overcoming the demon within has nothing to do with whether or not someone should or should not apologize or ask for an apology.

It has everything to do with it, because that's your demon! :eek:

DrGazebo
11-05-2002, 08:44 AM
Ah, again paradox strikes. Jesus Christ clearly taught, with no IFs, ANDs or BUTs, do NOT strike back. If your enemy strikes your face, turn the other cheek. To really follow Christ's example, you would study Ghandi, not Ueshiba.

So to follow Christ is to renounce all forms of violence, like one of the generals who wept at the foot of the cross, he would play at war no more.

Instead, you put your life in G-d's hands, trusting the holy spirit will protect you. Fighting back, by hurling someone into the wall, breaking their arm with a joint lock, or hitting them with a jo staff, has nothing to do with Christianity.

Christ said it plain and clear: renounce all violence if you are to follow me. So I can't see how any form of bushido and Christianity are compatible.

PS: I am not a practising Christian, but I teach world religions each semester for a group of seniors at our local university. Christianity, along with Jainism, Buddhism and Sufism, do not formally advocate any form of armed resistance.

But what do you do when your child is attacked? There's the rub....

mike lee
11-05-2002, 09:01 AM
Christ said it plain and clear: renounce all violence if you are to follow me. So I can't see how any form of bushido and Christianity are compatible.

Based on what you are saying, every Christian in the US armed forces is a two-faced hypocrite — right?

How about law enforcement officers. Should they just "turn the other cheek" if a dangerous criminal resists arrests?

If this is the extent of your understanding, then you're not even qualified to teach Sunday school to 5-year-olds.

Wormwood
11-05-2002, 09:06 AM
Christ said it plain and clear: renounce all violence if you are to follow me. So I can't see how any form of bushido and Christianity are compatible.
Just wondering, where exactly did he say this? I now that he said to 'turn the other cheek', but does that mean to turn away from all violence, or a change of an attitude. Even Jesus was violent at times, look at the money exchangers at the temple.

Nathan

ChristianBoddum
11-05-2002, 09:08 AM
Hi !

DrGazebo : the power of prayer in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is what makes the impossible happen.

This part is what is very important in the life of a believer.

yours - Chr.B.

Kat.C
11-05-2002, 09:15 AM
Ah, again paradox strikes. Jesus Christ clearly taught, with no IFs, ANDs or BUTs, do NOT strike back. If your enemy strikes your face, turn the other cheek. To really follow Christ's example, you would study Ghandi, not Ueshiba.

So to follow Christ is to renounce all forms of violence, like one of the generals who wept at the foot of the cross, he would play at war no more.

Instead, you put your life in G-d's hands, trusting the holy spirit will protect you. Fighting back, by hurling someone into the wall, breaking their arm with a joint lock, or hitting them with a jo staff, has nothing to do with Christianity.

Christ said it plain and clear: renounce all violence if you are to follow me. So I can't see how any form of bushido and Christianity are compatible.

PS: I am not a practising Christian, but I teach world religions each semester for a group of seniors at our local university. Christianity, along with Jainism, Buddhism and Sufism, do not formally advocate any form of armed resistance.

But what do you do when your child is attacked? There's the rub....
Actually you are wrong about no violence, Jesus himself cast out the merchants, and overturned the tables and seats of moneylenders and those selling doves in the temple in Jerusalem. Not a very peaceful scene.

MattRice
11-05-2002, 09:31 AM
...obliging them with a little sauce
Is that why we come here? To provide sauce? Make mine chocolate please...:-)

Bruce Baker
11-05-2002, 09:34 AM
From what I gather about the subject of researching Bushido, we have contradiction of social morality.

Men are supposed to be this big strong figure who prove themselves to be a human sperm bank, having sexual encounters with what ever woman attracts them, and our social code of morality dictated by our religious beliefs says we should have sex for love, family, and continueing the human race into another generation.

That may be a bit base in its analogy, but isn't that the heart of finding balance as an adult in society both for men and women?

The outside activities of searching learning and becoming your own person is interspersed with detractions, just as a father deters the date, or boyfriend from doing anything the girl does not want to do with the threat of bodily harm, our intentions should be to love on equal terms for both human beings what ever the deterent, accepting the consequences of their actions. I have done my job as a father declaring my support of my child, and it is then up to them to be socially and morally responsible.

That is not to say they do have the choice of independent thought.

I know from experience how people try to shape you into their mold of what they consider to be a good citizen, a perfect Christian, a great Warrior, or even create deterents that must be overcome if you truly follow your own path. It is kind of a test to see if you are bluffing, not committed to your beliefs, but they deeply respect you when your way works out better than their advice or their own chosen way of life.

Yes, life is a variety of contradictions, tests of faith, tests of commitment in both your morality, and religious beliefs.

On the other hand, it does tend to explain the balance of good and evil, pain and pleasure, penalty and reward. The contradictions are the test of your character to search for the truths that make up your life.

The church going people who worship on Sunday, Sin on Friday /Saturday night, cheat /steal/ or do their shady business deals are the same people who stare down their noses at those who accomplish the near impossible as they stare in awe at the person who honestly perseveres.

That is the contradiction of our society, of most societys, and the obsticle to be overcome again, and again, and again.

I may have gotten slightly off the subject of Bushido, learning the ways of the warrior within your own religious, and morality, but be aware the resistence of others is the fear of ignorance, fear of having a trained killer in their midst, when they, the untrained, are more likely to be the exponents of violence.

That is why most who search the martial way are such good citizens. You must operate within the normal arena of society, but quietly go about your search for knowledge, your continuance in training.

I don' t know if this will help, but you will find many references to this type of advice, and in many different forms.

You must always train to be a better person, support the righteous morality of your society, and never seek adulation, or recognition . These ways are the dark ways that pervert the indivual into believeing the world must end with his own death as the body returns to earth, and the universe ...sometimes called heaven.

I do get pretty adamant about having each person seek the truth of all things, but would create people who think, not people who follow blindly. It kind of comes from being exposed to the preachers with suits and jewelry that costs more than I have ever made in a month of wages, begging and pleading to give money for Jesus, or what ever they are preaching that day.

We all have the capacity to be better than we are, some of us have the capacity to be great is we chose to be, most of us choose not to be. We choose the middle ground of a comfortable life within our society.

Never mind about the Jesus thing, or the preachers for money ....

Just one of my little pet pieves.

Sorry about the rant and rave, but the conversation seemed to be going to this deeper vein of thought although the conversation did not.

mike lee
11-05-2002, 09:43 AM
Christianity, along with Jainism, Buddhism and Sufism, do not formally advocate any form of armed resistance.

Right. So I guess for the last 2,000 years Shaolin's Buddhist monks just practiced kung fu "informally."

Bruce Baker
11-05-2002, 01:53 PM
We make our choices, take our chances, and live with the results.

Jesus was planning to be a martyr ... at least there is every indication of it by the way he was portrayed as unwaivering, unbending in his ways.

But then ... I don't think he ever said to the people to worship him as a god, but through his teachings they could come closer to god, or is that too another error in translating text?

There is always some point at which there must be resistence or the extermination of people. History proves it has happened before and it will relegate them to the earth and with archeology the mystery of a peaceful people is found at some future date.

Unless the killers become part of those they are trying to exterminate?

Within the answer is the puzzle, and withing the puzzle is no answer.

ALL RELIGIONS ARE CREATED BY MEN.
All men create religions to soothe the inner tumoil of their life, or to deal with their mortality.

Argue if you wish, but the world is what it is, while men try to make it something different.

Hence all religions are flawed by the thoughts of humanity, its choices of good and evil, sometimes choosing evil over good.

So all religions are as right as they are wrong!


The mighty protect the weak so they might go on in future generations, but who is the mighty?

There will always be those with weapons beyond hand to hand confrontation, but then how will we calm ourselves into believing we have some control over our lives? Aikido, maybe?

It sure couldn't hurt.

If we can't all get along, could we have practice without killing each other, please.

DrGazebo
11-05-2002, 05:15 PM
Kung fu was not intended to be used for fighting, it was a meditative practice which contributed to the quest for enlightenment. All manners of fighters have justified slaughter on the basis of bushido. You need to remember, bushido is a warrior's code, and it was mostly about war, territory and power. It is only through Ueshiba and others like him, that the ugly intention of bushido could be harnessed for spiritual development.

Christianity and the military; not a logical match. Jesus told Peter to lay aside his sword, and his destruction of the merchant stalls in the temple was an example of his human frailty, not an example for us to go stomping ass when we are angry. Look at the power Jesus had, if he did exist, he could have wiped out the entire Roman army with a single word. But instead he let himself by tortured and killed, to show the violence accomplishes nothing.

These aren't my thoughts, they rest upon a conservative interpretation of the scriptures. No, a soldier cannot follow Christ, he must first lay aside his weapons; or did the Crusades teach us nothing?

Good thread, and please, keep it civil, this discussion has value for all of us to broaden our minds. The paradox is, of course, that without violence, there is no peace, yin and yang...and at the same time, woe to him through which it comes. A paradox again...

ChristianBoddum
11-05-2002, 06:37 PM
Hi again !

I am pleased to see that Gazebo is making an important point about Jesus that is very hard

for me to put into words,Jesus was and is not weak but he had to be the example for us to follow,when you read the bible you find out

where he comes from and the fury of God really

was love to start with but it took Jesus to really make it clear to us.

Jesus also said : I don't come with peace,

I come with the sword.

In his case the sword is the word.

I would like to elaborate on this ,but this I can do better in my native tongue and I'm not out to start a battle on words ,so I suggest if you want to know about Jesus ,approach him and read the bible ,there may be some shocking

realities revealed to you.

All for now .

Yours - Chr.B.

Kat.C
11-05-2002, 07:30 PM
Christianity and the military; not a logical match.Really?:freaky: Read the old testament. Jesus told Peter to lay aside his sword, and his destruction of the merchant stalls in the temple was an example of his human frailty, not an example for us to go stomping ass when we are angry.Well no it was because what they were doing was wrong, he said they had turned his house into a 'den of thieves'.Look at the power Jesus had, if he did exist, he could have wiped out the entire Roman army with a single word. But instead he let himself by tortured and killed, to show the violence accomplishes nothing.Actually he allowed this to happen because he was following God's will, to cleanse us from sin.
These aren't my thoughts, they rest upon a conservative interpretation of the scriptures.Whose? Jesus states quite clearly who he is and why he is to die.No, a soldier cannot follow Christ, he must first lay aside his weapons; or did the Crusades teach us nothing?
Well the crusades aren't a guide to christianity the Bible is, and there was one centurion who had faith in Jesus, faith so great that Jesus himself commented on it, he also healed that soldier's servant. So it seems soldiers can be christians.Good thread, and please, keep it civil, this discussion has value for all of us to broaden our minds. The paradox is, of course, that without violence, there is no peace, yin and yang...and at the same time, woe to him through which it comes. A paradox again...

Kevin Leavitt
11-05-2002, 09:33 PM
Um, I guess I would qualify as a warrior.

From what I can read, there seems to be many folk in here who claim to be warriors, but are really not following the ethos.

I believe the Christian gentleman who started this thread had some questions that he wanted answered...some of us so called "warriors" have decided to take this as podium to express our swaggering "bullshido".

While a "true warrior" might not ever expect an apology, he also does much to prevent not unecessarily provoking anothers wrath.

If killing a person was the measure of warriorhood, then I guess that would make all the killers in prison "true warriors"

Being a warrior is not things like "how many boards can you have broken over your head without crying". Or how much you can suck it up. It is about developing a code of conduct or ethics and doing the right things even in the face of adversity or even when no one else is looking or even knowing.

I would have to agree somewhat with Mike Lee. I warrior doesn't expect gifts, rewards, compensation, medals, or accolades for doing what he does...he/she does it simply because it is the right thing to do.

Religion and religous beliefs are personal in nature, everyone must look within themselves to find spirituality and meaning. Some will find aikido to be in conflict with that, some will not.

ChristianBoddum
11-06-2002, 08:22 AM
Hi !

What Kat.C has put into words is what I wasn't

able to as well as.

Have a nice day with plenty of sweat !

yours - Chr.B.

Kat.C
11-06-2002, 11:51 AM
Um, I guess I would qualify as a warrior.

From what I can read, there seems to be many folk in here who claim to be warriors, but are really not following the ethos.

While a "true warrior" might not ever expect an apology, he also does much to prevent not unecessarily provoking anothers wrath.

If killing a person was the measure of warriorhood, then I guess that would make all the killers in prison "true warriors"

Being a warrior is not things like "how many boards can you have broken over your head without crying". Or how much you can suck it up. It is about developing a code of conduct or ethics and doing the right things even in the face of adversity or even when no one else is looking or even knowing.

I would have to agree somewhat with Mike Lee. I warrior doesn't expect gifts, rewards, compensation, medals, or accolades for doing what he does...he/she does it simply because it is the right thing to do.
The word warrior comes from a french word meaning 'to make war'. A warrior is just someone who is experienced in the art of warfare or is involved in it. So even those warriors who don't follow codes of conduct or do 'the right thing' are still true warriors, just not ideal ones. Killers in jail are not warriors as the word refers to people with experience and skill in making war, not just someone who kills people.

mike lee
11-07-2002, 03:45 AM
A warrior is just someone who is experienced in the art of warfare or is involved in it.

I'm using the term "warrior" as defined by the Native Americans, who believed that to travel the spiritual path, one had to have the spirit of a "warrior," that is one had to have a series of attributes to successfully travel on the spiritual road. Such attributes include morality, courage, and cunning. :do:

The best books I've ever read on the way of the warrior from the Native American's perspective is a series written by the late Carlos Castinada.

Genex
11-07-2002, 04:10 AM
kevin wilbanks wrote:
In fact, I'll be happy to go on record as saying Christianity is one of the worst things that ever happened to the human race.

Well said that man say goodbye the the Celts to the American Indian the Inca's you name it man its all gone bad...

anyhoo back to the topic bushido and christianity

to be frank if your trying to see weather bushido and chrisitanity mix then i'd say yes. id say that EVERY religion mix's with aikido because it was made that way, the ideology behind it was one of peace and harmony, give me a religion that doesnt strive for that...mostly...

remember that aikido was born from Neo-shintoism but was developed philisophicaly to be used by anyone (ueshiba was a big beleiver in ppl). i'd say yes the way of the warrior does apply to aikido because of its vertues i'd say that the vertues instilled in bushido are timult to what most religions are based on so in essence i'd say stop bloody worrying about it and just enjoy the aikido... :D

yoroshiku

pete

Josh Mason
11-22-2002, 01:33 AM
Don't be afraid to ask Boyd Sensei or Caudill Sensei any questions Vincent... Often times you will hear them say that there are no dumb questions, It is the question that goes unasked that is dumb. I know exactly how you feel about Boyd Sensei's presence. He does have a strong vibe and personality, some kind of energy about him that's very intimidating sometimes.

The Ronin Bushido Aikido club is an Independent organization. Sensei Richard Rood trained at Hombu under Morehei Ueshiba. Sensei Boyd trained at Hombu with Kisshomaru Ueshiba. No one really knows what ranking Boyd Sensei holds, rank really doesent matter with our organization.

Ronin Bushido is a great dojo. Boyd sensei, Caudill sensei, and all the instructors show infinite patience and kindness to their students. Why would anybody here try to devalue and disrespect an Aikido school like ours? To say those kinds of things is disrespectful to the founder Morehei Ueshiba, who developed Aikido for EVERYONE to practice, no matter what. Your affiliations and all those small things really don't matter. Aikido runs much deeper than that.

Bruce Baker
11-22-2002, 04:54 PM
Not really, O'Sensei did not develope Aikido for everyone, but as a means to make money to support his family and make a living. The fact that the developement of his training led to Aikido was a significant blending of many styles of martial arts.

The fact that his son was able to expand the arena of his teachings into Aikido, and have this art grow into a world wide practice was a side effect of being stubborn in his belief he was on the right track find a higher practice for martial arts than was presently being taught in his day.

The tricks are all there, the road can be clear for you to learn, or you can idolize our predecessors to the point of missing the humanity of an average person who learned to do extraordinary things.

Bushido? Ronin? Average citizen overcoming fear to do extradorinary things?

Yeah, our stubbornness is our flaw, as well as being our savior to rise to a higher level ... in all things.

Williamross77
12-19-2002, 01:45 AM
Well, there is a significant history of christian samurai, predating all of us. (AD1660+) I like them and their history.

Think about this...

Peter is strolling around with Jesus for three years before that night he cut off the Roman ear, not once before that night did Jesus tell his disciples "quit carring your swords!", that tells me something.

About bushido... Aikido seems to transform the code to mean the way of Serving the universe(God if you will) as a samurai thus The old Samurai bushido serves his lord:

The new samurai aikibudo serves the universe at his best.

Aikido can serve your Christianity, it does mine...

kironin
05-13-2003, 01:39 AM
Well, there is a significant history of christian samurai, predating all of us. (AD1660+) I like them and their history.

....

Aikido can serve your Christianity, it does mine...
and on that note...

Wayne comes through...

http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue2/gracia.html

interesting history even earlier than 1660 CE

Craig