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Bud
10-22-2002, 10:48 AM
My sensei used to teach a certain technique that went something like this:

Uke grabs Nage in ryokata dori. Nage takes a wide step to the back, forcing uke to take a step forward. That backward step coincides with a atemi to the face of uke. Immediately after, nage drops to uke's legs, one hand grabbing the ankle of uke's leading leg. Nage then slides the forearm of his other arm across the inner knee of uke, twisting it and knocking uke to the ground. Nage finished with a strike to the ground of uke.

I've seen this same technique in Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere. Does anyone know what this technique is called and if they practice this technique for attacks other than ryokata dori?

(I can't ask my sensei. he went back to Japan a few years ago..)

opherdonchin
10-22-2002, 11:49 AM
In seidokan we do this and a number of similar leg throws from ushiro-dori and also ushiro kata dori. We saw them fairly often.

I've seen them in ASU also but I can't remember what technique we were starting them from.

At a Tai Chi seminar I was at once, the teacher showed a number of fairly simlar techniques but using the leg to brace and buckle the other person's legs rather than the arms. I think the idea was 'techniques you can do with your arms tied behind your back.'

paw
10-22-2002, 02:31 PM
In the circles I run with, "leg lock" refers to a technique that threatens the structural integrity of the leg such that injury is imminent.

For examples, you can view Leg Locks dot Com (http://www.leglocks.com/)

So, as I understand it, you're talking about leg throws, or have I misunderstood?

Regards,

Paul

Bud
10-22-2002, 03:19 PM
I used the term "lock" to describe the inability of the targeted knee to function i.e. bear the weight of the uke. The action does by nage is more of a buckling of the knee from the inside, forcing it to flex and collapse. I've seen a similar technique in O sensei's book "Budo" (the one with his illustrations) but it describes force applied to the knee directly, much like a knee bar. I've always wondered about this technique and others that aren't usually taught nowadays.

paw
10-22-2002, 09:08 PM
Bud,

If you're going to use "lock" in such a manner, then which of the following would you consider "leg locks"?

kani basami (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/kanibasa.gif)

Ashi Garuma (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/ashiguru.gif)

De ashi harai (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/deashi.gif)

harai tsuri komi ashi (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/haraita.gif)

kibisu gaeishi --- this might be the throw you've described (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/kibisu.gif)

ko soto gaki (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/kosogake.gif)

ko soto gama (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/kosogama.gif)

o soto gaki (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/sotogake.gif)

There are others, but I'm heading to bed....

Curious,

Paul

pointy
10-22-2002, 11:03 PM
Does anyone know what this technique is called and if they practice this technique for attacks other than ryokata dori?
I dont know what it is called but we did it on a Friday afternoon at NY Aikikai about 3 months ago. The attack was Ushiro Ryokatatetori. As Uke comes around the other side, Nage spins back into it and goes for Uke's inside leg.

I think it's a variation of something one would find in a lot of different arts. I bet a lot of us has had the experience of seeing Nikkyo or Kotegaeshi in a kung fu movie :)

It's always like, "oh $h, did you see that, it was Nikkyo!"

When i practiced Ninjitsu as a kid we would do this technique with our feet. It would be in a kind of situation where uke (using the aikido words for it) takes a jab at nage's face. Nage then falls to his back, just a little bit ahead of the punch. On the way down Nage hooks his back foot around the inside of Uke's knee. Nage's other foot the kicks or pushes the inside of Uke's knee and kind of twists it like you've described. Once Uke is down Nage moves forward just a little and strikes at Uke's groin with the heel.

or something like that, it's been a while ;)

peace

evan

Bud
10-22-2002, 11:09 PM
paw,

Most of what you showed I'd consider leg sweeps. The ko soto gaki would be similar to sumi otoshi. The technique I'm describing uses only the hands for buckling uke's knee from the inside.

paw
10-23-2002, 05:55 AM
Well, then the only other thing I can think of is you're describing an "ankle pick" (freestyle/folkstyle wrestling).

Regards,

Paul

Greg Jennings
10-23-2002, 06:19 AM
We call it a form of iriminage although I'd be happier with a descriptive name.

You'd always be safe calling it "kokyunage". :) .

Best Regards,

SeiserL
10-23-2002, 09:13 AM
Yes, in Tenshinkai Aikido, Phong Sensei teaches a similiar take down and leg lock form any attack/approach. Except we don.t twist the leg, just point the side if the knee towards their balance point.

Until again,

Lynn

Paul Smith
10-23-2002, 09:28 AM
In our organization we call these types of "knee buckling" techniques "hiza osae," because beyond dropping uke by the technique, we continue on to a pin.

Paul

Bud
10-23-2002, 10:51 AM
Paul Smith : the way it was taught to me was it concluded with an atemi to the groin to keep uke down. but after trying out the technique a few times I realized the potential of flowing to an ankle lock on the opposite leg, the one that was not buckled, after applying the atemi. This will turn uke onto his stomach and the pin would look like the same finish to nikyo ura.

SeiserL, I agree with your observation. It does involve off balancing, and the buckling isn't painful at all. It's more of a immobilization of the knee, making it incapable of bearing weight.

pointy: Ushiro ryote dori? hmm..gotta try that one. Thanks :)

Bruce Baker
11-07-2002, 09:45 AM
Maybe I was thinking about the monkey's abilitiy to use feet like hands,or Houdini's ability to tie and untie knots with his toes, but imagine your upper body was occupied with two people and all you had free were your legs as you grappled on the ground.

Or maybe I was imagining my arms were useless and I must then use my legs as arms ... but shouldn't we be able to do ikkyo, or nikkyo with our feet?

Sure there are sweeps and leg locks, but I would think we should be able to manipulate with our legs and feet as well as our hands and arms?

Just a thought. Something left over from wrassling, BJJ, and having to deal with four or more grapplers who can immobilize your upper body.

L. Camejo
11-07-2002, 02:16 PM
Hey Bud,

This technique is part of the koryu dai san or go shin no kata of Shodokan Aikido as well. Don't know where it came from, but it is referred to as gedan ate by some Tomiki stylists (I'm not exactly sure what Shodokan calls it).

In our kata it is used from a lapel grab and pull, finishing with a backfist to the face of uke (who is on his back). As uke blocks, the blocking arm is used to roll uke over and do the kotehineri (sankyo) pin.

The other scenario is from a downward stab with tanto, vertically to the head (like shomen uchi). As Tori steps on the inside of the slash, the blade is guided into the knee, the takedown on the inner knee and ankle is done, as uke falls on back, the ankle into knee leg lock (mentioned above) is applied and the tech finishes with the sankyo pin after uke tries to get up.

We apply the technique either by rotating the knee towards the little toe with one hand while the other holds the ankle.

Another variant is done from hanza handachi where uke grabs the arm of tori's gi and pulls. As uke steps back with the pull, tori enters and applies tegatana against the insude of uke's knee (almost like a strike) this is done with one hand and achieves the same effect. Timing is key for it to work however.

Just my 5 cents.

L.C.:ai::ki:

Bud
11-07-2002, 02:59 PM
Thanks for the info, L. Camejo . I was a similar technique in OSensei's book "Budo Training in Aikido". As I recall the difference was that Osensei describes it as a actual locking of the knee, like hiji kime.

That sankyo pin to uke's blocking arm sounds interesting. Gotta try that out. Thanks!

Just to add to my previous post on finishing with a leg lock with uke on his stomach, a personal variation of mine is to step on uke's other leg (the one that's not being locked) to keep uke in place and not have it thrashing around to kick nage.