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aikido_fudoshin
10-02-2002, 01:44 PM
I found this on another website, sorry about the length, but what do you think of this?


Excerpt of Aikido Shugyo - Gozo Shioda's Autobiography

Avoiding the concentrated fire of revolvers

Talking about weird things, let me talk about an extremely strange event. This
is also something I actually witnessed with my own eyes. One time an official
from the munitions department of the army, together with 9 military personnel,
came to visit the Ueshiba Dojo. They came to watch the wonderful art of aikido
that they had heard about. These people were arms inspectors. They tested new
weapons and judged whether the sights were accurate or not. Their shooting
ability was Olympic level, and I noticed that they hit the target every time.

Ueshiba Sensei, who had done a demonstration before these people that day, had
claimed, "Bullets cannot reach me." I had, of course, previously heard that
when he was in Mongolia he had avoided the bullets of horse-mounted brigands,
but this was quite different. The inspectors' pride was hurt and they were
quite angry. "You're sure that the bullets won't touch you?” they asked. "Oh,
no, they won't." "Then would you like to try?" "Sure."

They took him at his word and promptly arranged the date that they were to meet
at the Okubo Army Shooting Centre. Before the date, they made Ueshiba Sensei
write officially that he had agreed to become a living target for the army
officers and got him to place his fingerprint on the document. As a further
precaution and verification, they took the document to the army court.
Therefore, even if Sensei was shot and killed, nobody could lodge a complaint.

The appointed day arrived, and a military car came to pick Sensei up to take
him to the shooting area in Okubo. Mr. Yukawa and myself accompanied him.
Naturally, Sensei's wife was very anxious and beseeched him to change his mind.
but Sensei kept replying light-heatedly, "It's all right., they will never hit
their target." Mr. Yukawa and myself were also very concerned; to the point
where we were wondering if it wouldn't be wise to make funeral preparations.
When we reached the shooting area, another surprise was waiting for us. I was
expecting only one gun to be aimed at Sensei, but we discovered that six men
would be firing pistols at him. The best range for pistols was 25 metres and,
normally, a target in the shape of a human is placed at this distance. This
time, however, Ueshiba Sensei was standing there in place of the doll. The six
men then positioned themselves, aiming at Ueshiba Sensei. While staring at him,
I kept thinking helplessly that twenty-five meters is a considerable distance,
and was wondering what on earth Sensei could do from there.

One, two, three…. The six revolvers fired at the same time and a cloud of dust
whirled around us. Then, suddenly, one of the six marksmen was flying through
the air! What had happened? Before we could figure it out, Sensei was standing
behind the six men, laughing into his beard.
We all were bewildered. I really and truly could not understand what had
happened. Not just me, but everyone present was so stunned that we could not
find words to express our shock. The six inspectors were not yet convinced and
asked if Sensei could do it again. "All right" he answered indifferently.

Once again, the six barrels were aimed at Ueshiba Sensei and were fired. This
time the inspector at the edge of the group flew into the air. In exactly the
same way as before, Ueshiba Sensei was standing behind the six inspectors
before we knew what was happening. I was dumbfounded. That time I had promised
myself to watch carefully in order to see exactly what Sensei was doing. But
even though I had tried very hard, I was completely unable to see how he had
moved.

Facing Ueshiba Sensei were the barrels of the six revolvers which had been
fired. This far I could remember clearly, but the next stage, where Sensei had
moved the distance of 25 metres and thrown one of the six marksmen, I simply
could not understand. I couldn't find any explanation for other than "God
techniques."


Flying golden balls

On our way back I asked, "Sensei, how could you do such a thing?” and I
received the following answer. Before the explosion, as the trigger is pulled,
a flash like a golden ball flies off. The actual bullet of the revolver comes
later, therefore it is easy to avoid.

In this case, even though the six men intend to shoot at the same time, they
are never exactly together. Because they shoot at slightly different times, I
just have to go to the one who is going to fire first. "The golden flash has a
spectacular noise," said Sensei. According to him, after the noise he would
begin to run. He ran in the shape of a ninja with his back bent, taking short
slow steps. The real bullet would come after he had already leapt forward about
half the distance. Sensei said that the time between the flash of gold and the
bullet was quite long, but for us watching, everything happened so quickly that
we had no idea that he was trying to get close enough to throw the first man
that had fired.

"God has said that I am necessary for this world and has decided to let me
live. My period of purification is not over so I cannot die. When I am not
necessary for this world anymore the gods will let me pass away." Sensei seemed
to be convinced, but of course we couldn't understand what he meant. I know
that you readers will have difficulty believing in stories like this, but these
kind of strange things really did happen.


Challenge with a master hunter

There is another story that relates to the previous one.

One of my acquaintances, Mr. Sadajiro Sato, was a hunter from Yamanashi
Prefecture. He was known as a master of gun hunting. For example, hunters
usually aim at and shoot pheasants when they are descending to the ground. At
this moment it is said that their flying speed is around 200 kilometres per
hour. If the pheasant is shot in the head it will drop straight to the ground,
but if the bullet hits the body it will fall a long way away. Accordingly,
hunters would try to aim for the head, which is not an easy target to hit. The
point is the Mr. Sato would hit the head every time he shot--he was the master
of masters.

One day I told Mr. Sato the story of Ueshiba Sensei avoiding the six revolvers.
"Even if he did that I am sure he won't be able to avoid mine," said Mr. Sato
confidently. "A human head is much bigger than that of the birds that I am used
to shooting. I cannot imagine missing that." Having said that, Mr. Sato came
down out of the mountains to challenge Ueshiba Sensei. I accompanied him to the
Ueshiba Dojo land told Sensei that Mr. Sato wished to challenge him. Sensei
accepted the proposal.

I watched carefully, and a bit anxiously, as Sensei sat down in seiza at the
far end of the Dojo while Mr. Sato took distance and aimed. And then just as he
was on the verge of pulling the trigger, Sensei dropped his head in recognition
and said, "Wait! Your bullet will hit me! Your thoughts are undistorted, and
clearly you want to hit me. From the beginning you've known that you are going
to hit your target. I cannot avoid the gun of such a man, you are a true
master!"

Mr. Sato returned happily to his mountains. I was deeply impressed. Mr. Sato
was a gun master, and Ueshiba Sensei recognised that and withdrew. It was proof
that a master can recognise another master. I was very fortunate to have been
able to see two precious masters challenging each other.

diesel
10-02-2002, 04:17 PM
This was also presented in O Sensei's biography, The Invincible Warrior. While enjoyable to hear, I wonder how much of this was propaganda? Gozo sensei is a biased source for this information after being a uchi desa for O Sensei. I'm not saying this didn't happen, but I would like to see some other accounts of this occurance. Too bad there probaly are not any.

I think in the book it was rifles and not pistols? It's been a while since I have read this.. Concievably, if flintlocks were used, there is ALOT of smoke due to the amount of powder being burned off along with a flame from the cap ingniting the powder.. a good 1~3 seconds before the ball is actually fired. I could see one with years of martial experience being able to dodge this.

Thinking about the feasability of this and how in the context, Osensei says, "The golden flash has a spectacular noise,"... I think this was done with some form of flintlock or non-capped cartridges.

There is also the possibility that O'sensei could read the body language of the shooters and knew who would be firing at act accordingly, or he could read their minds, or perhaps they were afraid to shoot at him and missed on purpose.

No one will ever know for sure, so we take in stride. I know will not be trying to dodge bullets anytime soon. Of course, when the time is right.. I won't have to! ;)

Cheers,

Eric

:ki:

L. Camejo
10-02-2002, 07:38 PM
Neo: Are you telling me that I'll be able to dodge bullets?

Morpheus: What I'm saying is that when you are ready, you won't have to.

The Matrix.

I wonder if O-Sensei was "ready"? :)

L.C.:ai::ki:

drDalek
10-03-2002, 02:22 AM
I think that most of these stories are propaganda, you have to remember that in the struggle to "establish" the art of Aikido and having it accepted, the truth sometimes needs a bit of "creative polish".

Whether O'Sensei could or could not dodge bullets, even from flintlock rifles is immaterial, the fact that these stories attracted the students that are currently instructing us however, is.

mike lee
10-03-2002, 05:07 AM
I think that most of these stories are propaganda

Based on what evidence?

Ta Kung
10-03-2002, 05:50 AM
I, for one, use common sense as evidence... :)

Actually, I don't really buy this rifle/gun story. It's just too over the top. And I don't need to buy these stories in order to appritiate to founder... He was one of the greatest martial artist ever, with or without the ability to dodge bullets!

Regards,

Patrik

mike lee
10-03-2002, 06:08 AM
I, for one, use common sense as evidence

Your "common sense" is not equal to evidence in the form of witnesses who give first-hand accounts.

A number of witnesses saw Jesus walk on water. What he did defies most people's "common sense," yet billions of people throughout history believe that he did it. This fact also defies "common sense."

Ta Kung
10-03-2002, 07:34 AM
I still don't buy it. And I still don't "need" to buy it; he was great either way. As far as Jeusus goes, he was the son of God. O'sensei wasn't.

Respectfully,

Patrik

REK
10-03-2002, 07:36 AM
Your "common sense" is not equal to evidence in the form of witnesses who give first-hand accounts.

A number of witnesses saw Jesus walk on water. What he did defies most people's "common sense," yet billions of people throughout history believe that he did it. This fact also defies "common sense."
As you may already be aware, witnesses are horrible historians. The mind and the senses tend to "fill in the blanks" when the brain is unable to fully perceive what has happened. Yet despite significant scientific support for this fact we tend to give immense credence to "eye-witness testimony" both in court and in church.

Secondly I would note that there is a difference between "truth" and "fact". Shioda may have presented the truth, but I, like Eric Roku, question the facts.

Rob

mike lee
10-03-2002, 07:45 AM
there is a difference between "truth" and "fact". Shioda may have presented the truth, but I, like Eric Roku, question the facts.

On what basis?

Ta Kung
10-03-2002, 07:53 AM
In the days of yore, people around the campfire talked about their superior enemies. They often described them as invinceble giants. I get the feeling this phenomenon is still going strong.

Regards,

Patrik

PS. Mike, don't you ever question statements like the one we're talking about in this topic? Didn't you hesitate to believe it when you first heard it? :confused:

mike lee
10-03-2002, 09:06 AM
Mike, don't you ever question statements like the one we're talking about in this topic? Didn't you hesitate to believe it when you first heard it?

What are you talking about??? I've questioned nearly all of your statements!!!

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the man that related the story is an aikdo shihan. I would be very reluctant to imply that such a man was a liar. After all, I might meet him or one of his high-ranking students someday, and I wouldn't want to get one of my arms twisted out of my shoulder socket.

Ta Kung
10-03-2002, 10:00 AM
What are you talking about??? I've questioned nearly all of your statements!!!

My statements, yes. The story we're discussing, no.

I'm not calling anyone a liar, but just because someone has a high grade doesn't mean that the person have all the facts. Are you really impying he can't be wrong, because he is a shian? :confused:

Maybe he saw what he said he saw, but I'm not so sure that we know everything about the story. What if, for arguments sake, it was a setup to promote Aikido? People do take money to do such pr stuff, you know. I don't buy that magic mumbo jumbo. I'm suprised you do.

Respectfully,

Patrik

PS. No, I'm not saing O'sensei was a fake. I'm just trying to explain that there might be more than meets the eye to this story. We do not have all the facts. If it occured as told, there could be something else beside magic involved...:rolleyes:

mike lee
10-03-2002, 10:08 AM
What if, for arguments sake, it was a setup to promote Aikido?

Once again, what facts do you have to support your arguement? Any witnesses?

Ta Kung
10-03-2002, 10:22 AM
Mike... "What if", "for arguments sake".

/Patrik

diesel
10-03-2002, 10:23 AM
Once again, what facts do you have to support your arguement? Any witnesses?
He is saying, "let's suppose this was setup to promote aikido.." Not, I have solid evidence here that Osensei, in fact, did not dodge bullets. In fact, all he did was do a leaping mae ukemi and a diagonal to the shooters and covered 20 feet in 3 seconds and threw a guy. Through the smoke from the guns however, no-one saw Osensei do the ukemi, all they saw was him up and throwing one of the shooters.

Maybe shihan Shioda looked away, distracted by Osensei's wife, and/or sneezed and didn't actually see what happened. Would he admit to Osensei that he "missed" it, I think not.

Again, the point being, we are only getting one account of the story. I am not calling Shioda sensei a liar, in fact I have great respect for the Shioda line and yoshinkan, but if you base all your facts from the recollection of one person... that is not very scientific.

It was stated, simply, We would like other accounts of this. It would have been nice if the soldiers that actually did the shooting were around to give their story.

One of my distant relatives wrote a journal about how he witnessed the rebirth of christ. Christ was actually an alien and he saw the spaceship come down, moved the big rock blocking the tomb with a tractor beam, and removed the corpse and went back to space. He wrote this, therefore it must be true.

Think for yourself, think outside of the box.

Eric

Alan Drysdale
10-03-2002, 11:04 AM
"Maybe he saw what he said he saw, but I'm not so sure that we know everything about the story. What if, for arguments sake , it was a setup to promote Aikido? People do take money to do such pr stuff, you know. I don't buy that magic mumbo jumbo. I'm suprised you do."

And maybe it is a test to see how gullable we are.

drDalek
10-03-2002, 11:13 AM
Once again, what facts do you have to support your arguement? Any witnesses?
What hard tangible facts do you have to support your idea that the entire event even took place in the first place? The word of one supposed "eyewitness"? Do you still believe the earth is flat?

Do you believe that David Copperfield can realy fly? That trick is pretty convincing, then again its still only a trick...

++ Just want to add, I am not calling anyone a liar but I am definately calling mike lee a TROLL

+++ Any opinion vs. opinion arguments on the internet invariably end up as a flame-war, proceed at your own risk.

mike lee
10-03-2002, 11:30 AM
Maybe shihan Shioda looked away, distracted by Osensei's wife, and/or sneezed and didn't actually see what happened. Would he admit to Osensei that he "missed" it, I think not.

Such an arguement is nonsense. If six men were about to shoot O'Sensei as part of a demonstration, would you "miss it"?

Plus, according to the story, they did it twice. So, if you missed it the first time, don't you think that you might try really hard not to "be distracted," so you would surely witness it when it happened the second time?

I think the source has to be given some serious consideration in this case. That is, he is probably a high-ranking martial artist, he is a Japanese living in Japan, and he was there. Can any one of you on this thread make this claim?

Japanese are not known to carry out scams in an effort to promote martial arts. If such a scam were ever uncovered, they would become totally discredited. No high-level martial artist would risk it.

Connecting O'Sensei with such a scam is entirely unthinkable.

Ultimately, someone may be able to debunk this story. But if that's the case, I would seriously doubt that O'Sensei had anything to do with it.

Now, if anyone doesn't believe this story, do something constructive -- debunk it with some facts!

mike lee
10-03-2002, 11:38 AM
Any opinion vs. opinion arguments on the internet invariably end up as a flame-war, proceed at your own risk.

I have no "opinion" in this matter, other than if you believe the story is false, prove it. The story itself has more facts than does anyone who doesn't believe the story so far.

I have an open mind -- just prove the story is false, and then I'll believe it's false!

And please, try to do it before you resort to any more childish name-calling. :rolleyes:

diesel
10-03-2002, 11:55 AM
Your missing the whole point. I did not say that this did not happen, nor did I say Shiodo sensei is a liar. I am saying I would like more proof then 1 person saying, yes, I saw this happen. Hey Mike, this morning when I was out jogging, I saw god. She was african american.

Look, I, 1 person, am accounting this. Therefore, it is true.

It seems to me, you say you have an open mind, but in your posts your not being open minded.

The point is, there is only one accounted witness. You realize that there are people that say the holocaust did not happen, that people did not land on the moon, that cuba is responsible for JFKs murder. If GW Bush says that IRAQ is responsible for the september 11th attacks because he saw a document from Hussein saying he ordered it. Does that make it true because Bush is the president?

I have had the same conversation with many catholics in regards to the existence of god. You take it for granted and beleive what you have been told without any tangible proof. That's not being open minded.

Maybe it's because I am a scientist and only beleive what I have solid evidence for and can reproduce.

Cheers,

Eric

mike lee
10-03-2002, 12:11 PM
Hey Mike, this morning when I was out jogging, I saw god. She was african american.

If that really happened to you, then I believe you.

It just so happened that there were at least 8 witnesses, and the one that recounts the demonstration is a highly respected aikidoist.

If the man does not have a history of making up stories or creating illusions to "promote aikido," then I still see no reason not to believe him.

After a fight with a swordsman, O'Sensei walked out into a garden and felt he was enveloped in a golden light. As far as I know, there were no witnesses to this event, yet many aikidoists believe the story.

P.S. Do you have a history of making up stories?

diesel
10-03-2002, 12:25 PM
I wouldn't beleive you if you told me you saw god. ;) I would want pictures! There is a difference between spiritual events and actualy events however. I have no doubt in my mind that osensei had spiritual awakenings. There is no way to prove or disprove this. There were numerous witnesses to the shooting event yes. But the point is, there is only 1 account of it.

I think this thread is now just an arguement? I will post no further, if you want to continue, message me privately please ;)

Cheers,

Eric

"He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice."

-Albert Einstein

Ta Kung
10-03-2002, 12:42 PM
Wasn't there also a story about o'sensei beeing challenged by some other gun expoert? As the gun expert was getting ready to shoot him, o'sensei said something like "Stop! Your mind is clear and you will hit me, because you really want to." (and/or something else along those lines).

That got me thinking. Wasn't the first group really trying to shoot him, then? And if they were, wouldn't o'sensei have "sensed" it like he did with this man?

Mike. Do you believe that o'sensei was a real magican? I don't see how else he could have mangaed it. No-one before or since, have been able to... Seriously, isn't there a single doubt in your mind?

/Patrik

mike lee
10-03-2002, 01:07 PM
There is no way to prove or disprove this. There were numerous witnesses to the shooting event yes.

The fact of the matter is that O'Sensei died from complications caused by liver cancer at the ripe old age of 86, and not from gun-shot wounds at some earlier date.

Eight witnesses at the event saw O'Sensei survive without a scratch. It may be hard to believe, but I have so far seen no evidence to the contrary.

I might add that there are many Americans that believe the moon-walk was staged on a movie set and that it was a conspiracy to make the Russians believe that the US was actually technologically more advanced than the Soviet Union. Once again, show me the evidence, and I'll believe it.

As the result of a law suit, a lot of top secret information about Area 51 has become a part of the public record. After seeing this evidence, I now have a more clear idea about Area 51.

Facts, evidence, and quality sources unravel lies and reveal the truth. If you've got something to say, back it up. If you can't back it up, it's a meaningless waste of words.

mike lee
10-03-2002, 01:21 PM
You take it for granted and beleive what you have been told without any tangible proof. That's not being open minded.

As I said before -- there are more solid facts in the story than any of the posters have provided to debunk the story. I would have to be absolutely insane to believe any of the posters on this thread that say the story can't be true and yet provide no evidence for such a presumption.

If you feel that I'm not being open minded, then so be it.

I never once said that I believed the story was true -- I only asked posters who believed that the story wasn't true, to provide some solid reasons to support their opinions. Thus far, there have been none.

REK
10-03-2002, 01:48 PM
As I said before -- there are more solid facts in the story than any of the posters have provided to debunk the story. I would have to be absolutely insane to believe any of the posters on this thread that say the story can't be true and yet provide no evidence for such a presumption.

....

I never once said that I believed the story was true -- I only asked posters who believed that the story wasn't true, to provide some solid reasons to support their opinions. Thus far, there have been none.
I think the dissenting point is that eyewitness testimony does not constitute "fact". You have only a story, no "facts", no documentation of the shooter's identities, the weapons used, the conditions, the actual distances, etc. Even Shioda Shihan could not relay exactly what happened. He is, by his own admission, unsure. If the only support for your belief is Shioda Shihan's tale, that's fine. I have no interest in trying to alter your faith in his veracity. I also don't have to agree with you.

I beleive that Ueshiba O'Sensei was an exemplary martial artist, whose skills were likely unrivaled in his time. The laws of physics, however, restrain even his abilities.

Rob

Alfonso
10-03-2002, 04:30 PM
Is there no one left who will validate / add to these stories?

I find it amazing that only half a century later there is such confusion as to the abilities of a person who has been filmed , photographed, interviewed etc.

If the translations are accurate O'sensei himself narrated some unbelievable (by common sense standards stuff), including disbanding armed mongolian bandits, holding off 30 young policement bent on 'testing' him , etc.

I confess that I was attracted to Aikido when I was 8 due to these stories. If they are untrue, if they are lies used by self serving people to promote their cause I'd like to know it.

As it is, I believe Mike Lee is right in pointing out that these stories havent' been actively discredited.

in any case whatever fills your cup of tea..

Roy Dean
10-03-2002, 05:36 PM
Mike,

"Japanese are not known to carry out scams in an effort to promote martial arts."

Actually, they are. The Japanese are quite fond of doing "works" (aka fake fights). It is common for them to intersperse these works with real fights in MMA events. The famous pro-wrestler Takada has done several, including a laughable victory over UFC and Pride Grand Prix Champion Mark Coleman. The Japanese are into spectacle and showmanship. An educated eye can spot the "work", while those that want to believe may not even notice the difference.

I love reading your posts, Mike. You are a fervent believer and defender of Aikido.

But understand that a shihan is just a shihan. They have rank, knowledge, and skill- nothing more. Some shihan are alcoholics. Others intentionally injure their students. Or take a look at Bruce Klickstein... hell, even OSensei is rumored to have engaged in marital improprieties. They are all human. They are all flawed. Their words should carry weight in their realm of expertise. That's all.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

Steven
10-03-2002, 06:35 PM
Do you believe that David Copperfield can realy fly? That trick is pretty convincing, then again its still only a trick...
WHAT?!?!? WHAT?!?!? HE CAN'T REALLY FLY?!?!?

Damn ... I'm gonna have to sue to get my money back ... Damn ...

:rolleyes:

Andy
10-03-2002, 06:39 PM
Eyewitness testimony has been studied and researched to be found unreliable: 1 (http://www.csicop.org/si/9511/eyewitness.html) 2 (http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/Critical_thinking/Ford-Zaid_Eyewitness_testimony.html) 3 (http://www.rickross.com/reference/false_memories/fsm37.html) 4 (http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/mistakenid.html) 5 (http://www.newsday.com/news/nytwa96-eye901.story). Just because the witness was "highly ranked" shows nothing. Arthur Conan Doyle was very highly regarded in England, but he was still taken in by hoaxes (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/doyle.htm).

I can just see these guys at the shotting center.

"Sir, we have Ueshiba Sensei, a very well respected martial arts master, who wants us to shoot at him so he can prove he can dodge bullets. I tried to scare him off by having him sign a waver, but that didn't work. The guy even put his thumbprint on the thing."

"Did you try that army court trick?"

"Yes, sir. The venerable teacher did not back away."

"Well, we can't kill the guy, no matter what he signed. Let's get Tanaka, our best guy to take a shot at the guy and deliberately miss. Heck, if we're going to do that, let's get Tanaka and five more of our best shooters out there to deliberately miss. That way, Ueshiba Sensei doesn't get killed and our school won't be shamed for having killed him or having backed down."

"Yes, sir."

johnkeya
10-03-2002, 07:47 PM
Pretty funny stuff!

I think, though, that the responsibility of proof lies in the one trying to actually prove something (in this case, that O'Sensei could dodge bullets). You can't really prove a negative. To try to "prove" with facts that something like this "didn't happen" doesn't really make any sense. At least not to me... It is a pretty cool story though.

Abasan
10-03-2002, 08:08 PM
Since you guys are all about the facts, why don't you settle the issue by going through the military files of that day. I would think that since they have taken the precaution of documenting O-sensei's acquiescence, it would still be there in their records.

And by inference, if its there, it must be reasonable to assume that osensei went through the shooting and came out alive.

Although, after reading andy's account of it... i'm not so sure anymore.

drDalek
10-04-2002, 02:13 AM
Okay, sorry for calling you a troll mike, as the saying goes, never attribute to malice what can easily be explained through ignorance.

You do seem to be pretty insecure about something though to want to defend this story with so much zeal, I can understand how one might not like the idea of having to change established world-views that you have formed but you do need to approach everything you hear and even see with objectivity and an open but analytical, scientific mind.

I am loathe to accept the claims of people like Rod Sacharnosky with his particular brand of "Combat Ki" and even the more blatant charlatans who push their "students" over using only the power of their ki.

I am however not calling anyone a liar or a charlatan in this matter but the suggestion that Andy made in post 31 does seem to fit what I think what happened.

This however is my opinion, and you are entitled to your opinion however wrong it might be (in my opinion) :)

paw
10-04-2002, 06:18 AM
I was positive that this has been discussed before on another forum, but I cannot find the link.
"Well, we can't kill the guy, no matter what he signed. Let's get Tanaka, our best guy to take a shot at the guy and deliberately miss. Heck, if we're going to do that, let's get Tanaka and five more of our best shooters out there to deliberately miss. That way, Ueshiba Sensei doesn't get killed and our school won't be shamed for having killed him or having backed down."

In any case, as I recall, the discussion was similar to what Andy wrote. The army shooters were unwilling to kill an innocent man, and O Sensei recognized this. The hunter, for whatever reason, was willing to kill an innocent man and O Sensei also recognized this and withdrew the challenge.

At least, that's how I recall the thread going, but I certainly could be wrong in my recollections.

Regards,

Paul

mike lee
10-05-2002, 03:57 AM
Okay, sorry for calling you a troll mike, as the saying goes, never attribute to malice what can easily be explained through ignorance.

Withdrawing one insult and replacing it with another. Who's ignorant?

mike lee
10-05-2002, 04:04 AM
Just because the witness was "highly ranked" shows nothing.

There were at least 8 witnesses in the story, including O'Sensei himself. While the shihan admitted that he was unsure about what had occured at the demonstration, he did not say he was unclear about what O'Sensei said about the event.

Those that wish to discredit not only O'Sensei, along with an aikido shihan without reason are on very thin ice. I myself like to keep my feet on good old terra firma.

mike lee
10-05-2002, 06:04 AM
Eyewitness testimony has been studied and researched to be found unreliable ..

By whom?

If the demonstration was a hoax, who perpetrated the hoax? (Based on facts and not conjecture, please.)

L. Camejo
10-05-2002, 07:21 AM
Hi all. Nice Discussion.

I remember when I read these stories about O-Sensei the first time, back to back. To me they demonstrated something very interesting about the founder.

In the case of the 6 shooters I think O-Sensei had time (some days I think) to mentally prepare himself for the engagement, plan a strategy or whatever you will. It did not happen on the spot, as such he entered the situation already prepared for what was to transpire, knowing what was to come. To me, foreknowledge is a major advantage in any scenario like this. It is also possible that a person at O-Sensei's level could "sense"- for lack of a better term- the preparedness and willingness of the soldiers to shoot him (thru body language, metsuke or whatever). In swordsmanship, this resolve or spirit can mean the difference between life, mutual kill or death. It is my beliefe that in this case O-Sensei knew he could dodge these bullets, not based on the skill of the men or the quality of weapons used, but on the possibility that they did not have the "heart" or "spirit" to shoot him. Hence if their intent was lacking, their technique would be as well.

In the case of the village sniper :) his mental fortitude was absolute. He would kill Ueshiba without flinching, and he had the skill to do it. On the reverse side, from the story I read on Aikidofaq.com, Shioda was the one who brought the sharpshooter to O-sensei without having told him first. Hence, he was caught mentally unprepared for such a situation with the extra problem of having a worthy opponent with the confidence and "heart" to pull it off.

Wisely I think he saw the vast difference in composure and resolve between 6 sharpshooters who think that shooting is about aiming and pulling a trigger, as against a seasoned veteran who's idea of marksmanship was to visualise where you want the bullet to be.

I am very happy that he chose to back down in the second scenario, else we may have lost a very skilled martial artist. Had he had the time to prepare for this engagement as well, I am not sure what would have been the outcome.

Just some thoughts, have no more access to the facts than anyone else, but this is what I got from the story.

L.C.:ai::ki:

siwilson
10-05-2002, 02:08 PM
Your "common sense" is not equal to evidence in the form of witnesses who give first-hand accounts.

A number of witnesses saw Jesus walk on water. What he did defies most people's "common sense," yet billions of people throughout history believe that he did it. This fact also defies "common sense."

Hi Mike,

Let me just tell you something about your example of Jesus. The word for "on" was the same as for "by", but with a mark above one letter (as told to me by a collegue who is a bit of a theologian). So, it could be easy to mistake Jesus walking by the water with him walking on it. Walking on water sounds better though doesn't it?

Also, don't worry about meeting Shioda Sensei one day, as he passed away 8 years ago!

I have had the pleasure of being a student of 3 Sensei who trained under Shioda Sensei and they said that Shioda Sensei liked his stories, as my teachers did. And I too actually! (Hmm - pattern forming)

This did happen, but the way it happened is not known. Shioda Sensei says that himself.

When I do Jiyu Waza against an Uke with a real knife I know he is not trying to kill me... If he was I would not let him get back up and attack me again......

bob_stra
10-05-2002, 04:25 PM
As I said before -- there are more solid facts in the story than any of the posters have provided to debunk the story.

I never once said that I believed the story was true -- I only asked posters who believed that the story wasn't true, to provide some solid reasons to support their opinions. Thus far, there have been none.
It must be the late hour, or the impetuous nature of youth, but I'll take a stab at that thar' cupie doll...

(note - it's late and I'm fudging these numbers slightly for simplification. Will

approximations suffice or do I need to crack open the books? ;-)

A neural impulse works at a speed of around 400km / hr. Preceding this is the act of

perception (assuming dogging bullets isn't a spinal cord level function). Let's say that

takes 4/ 100th of a second. Let's be generous and say that upon receiving the neural

message from the brain the muscles act instantaneously (they don't but what the hey)

Perception + processing + message to muscles + action = dodge bullet.

For the sake of simplification (see above caveat) let the whole shebang = 10th of a

second.

Even assuming a sub-sonic bullet (let's say 200 m / sec) given the distance of 40 feet

that equals abt 0.075 of a second to reach intended target. Times that by 6 shooters,

presumably firing at slightly different body areas.

To move out of the way of such a barrage, one would have to move at speed closely

approximating the bullets. Even if such speeds were possible, the required force would

tear the muscles off the bone.

That leaves the option of pre-cognition which, given the late hour, I ain't touching ;-)

Ta Kung
10-06-2002, 04:43 AM
It's a shame that we've yet to hear from any one of the others involved. I sure like to hear from the shooters, or from anyone who have heard their story.

I'm going to give this topic a rest. I don't think we will solve this riddle. Some people will choose to believe no matter what. Others only believe when there is solid evidence.

Regards,

Patrik

mj
10-06-2002, 03:46 PM
Currently, I am researching rennes le chateau....truth and deception are not easily seperated in any of these things.

However I did see a video with three uchideshi pushing at a jo while a 70 odd year old Osensei held it out sideways, they couldn't move it or him. He was very relaxed. I wouldn't have believed thatif it was in a book, either.

Kenn
10-06-2002, 05:24 PM
mike, don't be silly, the only evidence for this act is the Bible, which has been proven to be full of inacuracies and contradicitons.

A number of witnesses saw Jesus walk on water. What he did defies most people's "common sense," yet billions of people throughout history believe that he did it. This fact also defies "common sense."[/QUOTE]

Suru
10-06-2002, 06:06 PM
The only mystery here isn't whether the story is true. Rather, it is how does anyone over the age of 5 possibly believe it for a second? Do you think if I walked up to a National Guardsmen in the airport and told him I could dodge bullets he would aim his sidearm at me and pull the trigger?

Drew

Kenn
10-06-2002, 06:21 PM
Tell me about it drew.....you still there?

PhilJ
10-07-2002, 12:30 AM
Bob, loved that post. Reminds me of the funny that explains the physics behind Santa Claus's trips on Christmas Eve. :)

This is definitely a "wouldn't it be cool if it were true" story. Didn't M. Ueshiba claim that these "ninja" tricks took years off his life?

bob_stra
10-07-2002, 01:43 AM
Bob, loved that post. Reminds me of the funny that explains the physics behind Santa Claus's trips on Christmas Eve.
We aim to please

(bows)

:)

The *real* question is.... could Santa dodge six bullets.:D

Ta Kung
10-07-2002, 03:01 AM
I know I said I would rest from this topic, but I've got something I'd like to share. Yesterday a friend of mine was at a paintball match. When we talked about it, it got me thinking of the last time I played.

I remember that I could see the "bullets" coming at me. They seemed to go slow, but all of a sudden they were making a mess on my goggles. :) I remember that I also saw the shots that were fired beside me, and I could acctually see them going in an arc shape. Even the wind had their trajectory (big word, bad spelling? :) ) altered.

Even though I saw these paintball shots coming at me, I couldn't react fast enough to move away. These shots are WAY slower than an ordinary bullet.

Now, if someone could stand still, let someone else fire at him, and still dodge these paintball bullets... then I'd be amazed. And to think about dodging real bullets? :eek: No way!

mike lee
10-07-2002, 04:04 AM
Now, if someone could stand still, let someone else fire at him, and still dodge these paintball bullets... then I'd be amazed. And to think about dodging real bullets? No way!

O'Sensei never "dodged bullets." When the guns were fired, he wasn't there.

Ta Kung
10-07-2002, 07:21 AM
O'Sensei never "dodged bullets." When the guns were fired, he wasn't there.

If that is true then there are only two possibilities.
1) He started running before they took the shot.
2) He started running after they took the shot.

If nr.2 is true, then he's twice as fast as a Neo in Matrix. If nr.1 is true, the shooters were not doing thier best.

Is there a nr.3? :rolleyes:

/Patrik

mike lee
10-07-2002, 08:09 AM
Is there a nr.3?

No. 3 would be O'Sensei's account of the event.

No mention was made regarding the state of mind of the shooters. Based on the information given, any opinions on their "state of mind" would be pure speculation.

Neo is a fictional character in a fiction-based film.

``Aikido Shugyo,'' an autobiography is non-fiction. Gozo Shioda was a real, living, breathing person; as was O'Sensei. Doesn't seem to be any fictional characters here.

Ta Kung
10-07-2002, 09:21 AM
No. 3 would be O'Sensei's account of the event.

No, it sure wouldn't! We're talking movement of the body here, not peoples account of the story!!!

There is only two ways if the story is true.

1) He moved before they fired.

2) He moved after they fired.

The only logical or remotely possible nr.3, would be that he moved exactly when they fired. Either way wouldn't have made a big difference. We're talking fractions of a second here! There is only before, during and after.
Neo is a fictional character in a fiction-based film. *snip* Doesn't seem to be any fictional characters here. .

Nope. No fictional characters. But the event, as you believe it happened, is truly fictional.

Give me a straight answer to this question Mike: Do you honestly believe that O'sensei really moved that distance so fast? If you do, then how is it possible for a human body to travel that fast? :eek:

Ever read the law of relativity (english sp?). Surely he must have moved faster than light, for this trick to work? That is, unless it was somehow rigged. By o'sensei or by the shooters. Or perhaps Scotty beemed him down? :D

/Patrik

PS. Do you also believe that Elivs is alive? People claim to have seen him you know. Then it must be true. (I'll bet people will still be seeing the King, even after his would-be 140th birthday).

Creature_of_the_id
10-07-2002, 10:02 AM
Abstract:

In this experiment we will show that man can move faster than bullets... (pad out)

Introduction:

Pad out with info on aikido, O'sensei, gun speeds, reaction times etc

Method:

(basicly)... we took 6 men, give them guns who fired at o'sensei

Results:

Gun1: discharged - missed - shooter thrown

Gun2: discharged - missed

Gun3: discharged - missed

Gun4: discharged - missed

Gun5: discharged - missed

Gun6: discharged - missed

O'sensei: Unharmed

Conclusions:

O'sensei moved faster than the bullets... (pad out)

possibly follow up experiment with more guns, different guns, tie his legs together, blind fold him etc etc etc.

________________________________

my point is...

had the shooting been written out like a scientific experiment would more people have believed it?

It turns out that people are more willing to believe the eye witness accounts of scientists, who have studied a subject for years and write in a more formal manner. than eye witness accounts of others who have studied for years and dont get their accounts published in journals.

why? probably because science follows 'doctine'.

Science said the world was the center of the universe. anyone who said otherwise was ridiculed (sp?). Anyone and anything that goes against science or the general belief system of the masses is made fun of and shunned. People want to believe that they are 'right' and make fun of anything that encroaches upon that which they think they know.

I have read, with interest, the entire thread. It has been very entertaining... but i am wondering. Have people gained from it? do people ask themselves... why do I believe this? (either side) and how does believing it help me get where I want to be or be who I believe I want to be?

the beliefs dont effect what you know, or who you are... they distract you from it. but its a fun ride anyway.

I started with a point... it kinda got lost and I went on a tangent as usual.

oh well...

hehehe

thanks

Kev Price

Ta Kung
10-07-2002, 10:34 AM
Great post, Kev!

Some people might "need" these stories to help motivate them in their practice. Or perhaps to keep "the mystic (sp?) of Aikido" alive.

Science have come a long way. Sure, they're not always accurate in these days eitherb but I've yet to see them beeing wrong about what speed a person can move by his own two feet...

I like this story as much as the next guy. But I can't believe that someone outran bullets fired directly at him. Especially when someone states that the bullets were fired with accuraracy (never mind my spelling :) ) so they'd hit if he'd stand still.

Like I said in my first post, It's too over the top to believe. And I don't need to believe them, to recognize o'senseis greatness.

/Patrik

drDalek
10-07-2002, 10:59 AM
I think it was a very clever bit of misdirection, not due to the efforts of anyone involved but merely due to the way stories change over time.

So, lets for a moment assume the story is true and accurate on all levels, nevermind personal bias on the part of the story teller, because I have not read a version of the story relayed by one of the shooters or any of the other eye witnesses.

This is my fictional, totally made up account of what I think might have realy happened, taking into consideration that O'Sensei was a sword and martial arts master.

O'Sensei is standing against a wall, approximately 25 meters from a line of 6 military sharp-shooters, armed with revolvers.

1: A revolver works with a rotating barrel, when the trigger is pulled, the barrel rotates to place a bullet under the hammer, while the hammer pulls back to a certain level before slamming back into the bullet. This is quite a long process (relatively speaking) and is quite audible in a quiet room (as I guess the shooting range was at that time)

2: For six men to fire simultaneously, they either had to have a squad leader announcing "Ready, Aim, Fire" or one of the six needed to do it.

Taking into consideration O'Sensei's extensive sword training and his level of awareness, both of these would have been on his mind at the time. He could start moving at the exact moment the squad leader starts pronouncing the first letter in Fire! or he could move during the word Fire!

There would be a brief pause between the word fire and the actual gunshots due to the mechanics of the revolvers.

Taking into consideration that all of these 6 men were unwilling to kill O'Sensei, I believe they would not have made an effort to "lead" him even if they had seen him move as the Fire! announcement came.

So the only thing O'Sensei needed to do was get out of their line of fire, assuming that they were aiming at either his head or his torso, a crouch into the form of a "ninja" as described in the story would have been enough.

Crossing the distance of 25 meters in 2 or 3 seconds is entirely possible, considering that even non-athletes can easily run 50 meters in 6 or less seconds and in the confusion and noise of the gunshots that would have been easy. Also, take into consideration, when you hear a sudden loud noise you automatically close your eyes. This might explain why the story teller could not see O'Sensei move.

I believe that it was a highly controlled, highly prepared test of reflexes and awareness for O'Sensei which has been given an almost mystical element over time.

This is the version I am choosing to believe.

Would any of us be able to do it? Yes, with enough of the right kind of training we would.

Would it be useful in a street altercation with an armed thug? Definately NOT.

mike lee
10-07-2002, 11:11 AM
Do you honestly believe that O'sensei really moved that distance so fast? If you do, then how is it possible for a human body to travel that fast?

If O'Sensei really said he did it, then I believe he did. As far as how he did it, he explained that in the story.

I'm not out to convince anyone that this story is true, as some of you have assumed.

The fact of the matter is that I don't need to believe this story as some have also incorrectly assumed. But if people want to discredit the story, provided by a highly reputable shihan in aikido and containing direct quotes from O'Sensei, then I would need to see something more than conjecture and opinions by relative unknowns to convince me that the story is totally false or that O'Sensei was engaged in some form of fraudulant activity, which, by not believing the story one would seem to be implying.

akiy
10-07-2002, 11:17 AM
Crossing the distance of 25 meters in 2 or 3 seconds is entirely possible, considering that even non-athletes can easily run 50 meters in 6 or less seconds and in the confusion and noise of the gunshots that would have been easy.
In the 100 meter dash, it took Carl Lewis 2.96 seconds and Ben Johnson 2.85 seconds to run 20 meters. For 50 meters, it took Carl Lewis 5.56 seconds and Ben Johnson 5.55 seconds.

-- Jun

Kenn
10-07-2002, 11:43 AM
[QUOTE=" But if people want to discredit the story, provided by a highly reputable shihan in aikido and containing direct quotes from O'Sensei, then I would need to see something more than conjecture and opinions by relative unknowns to convince me that the story is totally false or that O'Sensei was engaged in some form of fraudulant activity, which, by not believing the story one would seem to be implying.[/QUOTE]Mike, people have, time and again in this post shown you more than conjecture. It's called physics. Perhaps you should take a class.

Erik
10-07-2002, 01:31 PM
Today, if I wanted to test Ueshiba's bullet speed I would put him in front of a gun locked in a vice in order to remove human error or the human urge not to kill people. At some point, I would pull the trigger (or have it set up on a random timer somehow) and see what happens. Assuming the bullet hit the target and Ueshiba was not there we would know the answer. I might even go a step further and put a pressure sensor under his feet to trigger the shot. Of course it would also be videotaped. In other words, I'd remove the human element which according to Ueshiba's words should not have mattered anyway.

There are a lot of examples of people being shot at and not hit. Some of the numbers I've read about in regards to the Civil War are remarkably surprising in terms to how few shots fired actually hit someone. Most of that is probably due to humans unwillingness to kill humans. On the other hand, if you've ever hunted and tried to shoot something you'll understand just how hard it is to hit a moving target. If the story reads correctly then Ueshiba was a moving target.

See the book On Killing (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0316330116/qid=1034015270/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-8615807-7385419?v=glance) for more information.

drDalek
10-07-2002, 03:30 PM
In the 100 meter dash, it took Carl Lewis 2.96 seconds and Ben Johnson 2.85 seconds to run 20 meters. For 50 meters, it took Carl Lewis 5.56 seconds and Ben Johnson 5.55 seconds.

-- Jun
Yes, I actually had second thoughts about my "non-athlete" statement there, sorry, but still, O'Sensei did not just have to run the distance, a leaping forward roll would have probably covered atleast 5-10 meters in a very short time.

The point I was trying to make though was that it was not a test to see if he could "dodge bullets", rather it was a test of his awareness and timing.

And maybe... O'Sensei had the same level of fitness and ability as those great athletes you mentioned, he was afterall, an incredible martial artist long before unifying his training into Aikido.

Again I apologise for my less than accurate statement. Still though, I used to run 50 meters in 8-10 seconds back when I was 12, I just assumed that an adult with a larger stride would be able to cover more distance quicker.

Ta Kung
10-08-2002, 01:53 AM
Even if o'sensei was a bit faster than Carl Lewis (=unlikely), it still doesn't explain why he didn't get shot... since he still had to run straight towards the shooters, right?

If their aim was any good, he'd been hit even if he was fast enough to come as near them as 0.1 m.

Or did he run a few yards to the left first and then straight towards the shooters? If he was THAT fast, he probably had time to stop for tea first... :)

Creature_of_the_id
10-08-2002, 02:12 AM
Ta kung,

the way I read it, he only dodged one bullet. The bullet from the first person that fired... that is the same person that was thrown.

He got off the line of that bullet and moved towards the shooter.

Thats how I read the story anyway

drDalek
10-08-2002, 02:20 AM
Even if o'sensei was a bit faster than Carl Lewis (=unlikely), it still doesn't explain why he didn't get shot... since he still had to run straight towards the shooters, right?

If their aim was any good, he'd been hit even if he was fast enough to come as near them as 0.1 m.

Or did he run a few yards to the left first and then straight towards the shooters? If he was THAT fast, he probably had time to stop for tea first... :)
1: Due to the shooters not wanting to realy kill O'Sensei they probably would not have "lead" him if they had seen him move.

2: They all probably only fired 1 shot anyway, they were not shooting and shooting and shooting at him desperately trying to hit him.

3: In a firing squad, its customary to take aim only on the torso and the head, a duck into the shape of a "ninja" as described in the story would have been enough to allow the bullets to pass over him.

4: If the shooters were not wearing ear-muffs, it is quite possible that they all closed their eyes in reflex to the loud noise as well.

O'Sensei's timing needed to be absolutely spot on to pull this off convincingly and survive afterwards, however given these theories, I am sure he could have done it.

Also take into consideration that we dont have a version of this story from the shooters, only from one bystander who happened to have been a close friend and student of O'Sensei. So its quite possible that the shooters did see him running at them at high speed but they were unwilling and not ordered to shoot at him again.

aubrey bannah
10-08-2002, 03:05 AM
On the paintball thing, there are martial artists who can catch paintballs that are fired at them. Australian Athony Kelly caught 23 paintballs fired at him in 2 min. Range was 20 metres, speed was min 200 ft per sec. Review in Guinness book of Records.

Cheers Aubrey

REK
10-08-2002, 07:48 AM
Mike:

I want to start by saying that I don't have any interest in changing your mind. I just wanted to explain why I didn't share your belief in that account of this incident. So my question to you now is this: why is it important to you that I believe it? Why do you care? I think we would agree that Ueshiba O'Sensei was an unparalleled martial artist. We would probably also agree that Aikido is the ultimate martial art (for us). So what if I don't believe Ueshiba O'Sensei dodged bullets? I believe in his teachings, in his art and in his example. Isn't that all that matters?

Rob

PS: you asked who has studied the unreliability of eyewitness accounts. I refer you to http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/ for the definitive expert on the matter.

mike lee
10-08-2002, 08:16 AM
So my question to you now is this: why is it important to you that I believe it? Why do you care?

As I stated in post No. 57 on this thread:

"I'm not out to convince anyone that this story is true, as some of you have assumed."

Why do I care? I answered this in post 37 on this thread:

"Those that wish to discredit not only O'Sensei, along with an aikido shihan without reason are on very thin ice."

drDalek
10-08-2002, 09:27 AM
Those that wish to discredit not only O'Sensei, along with an aikido shihan without reason are on very thin ice.
Thin ice with whom? You? If I was able to discredit them I would take the chance of being on thin ice with you. Sadly we lack evidence either way and the evidence and facts that you keep talking about to support your beliefs have yet to surface.

The thing that bothered me about your posts in this thread was their confrontational nature and the "Because I SAID SO!" form of reasoning.

You might think that you provided supporting evidence but you never did, all you ever had was exactly the same as anyone else here had - a story - but you took it upon yourself to self-righteously defended people that you have probably only ever read about.

The thing is that everyone here has the right to believe whatever they want, you have no right to get all agro and confrontational when someone doubts something you take for a fact. If people did have the right to act the same way you did, think how scary religious fundamentalism would be (not thats its not scary already)

aiki_what
10-08-2002, 10:10 AM
Aikido falls victim to the same hyperbole and exaggeration as any other martial art or endeavor....actually I would believe its far worse as some aikido incorporates intangibles such as spirituallity and life energies (ki)as proven tenets. Physical and Battlefield exploits grow greater with time along with the story tellers appreciation of his/her audience.

mike lee
10-08-2002, 11:30 AM
The thing is that everyone here has the right to believe whatever they want ...

I never said they didn't. I only questioned the incredibly flawed reasoning behind their disbelief.

REK
10-08-2002, 12:24 PM
"Those that wish to discredit not only O'Sensei, along with an aikido shihan without reason are on very thin ice."
Please forward all my expressions of dissent to the shihan of your choice. Somehow I doubt they care if I believe it, either. Should my disbelief create such ill will in any of them that they seek me out to physically punish me for my human right of critical thought, then I'm really in the wrong martial art.

aikido_fudoshin
10-08-2002, 04:20 PM
I think the main point of this story is not about dodging bullets, but about Ueshiba recognizing that the shooters couldnt hit him. You could say the shooters lacked "fudoshin". I think the best part of it was the fact he could recognize this and attempt such a dangerous thing. Even if the story is false, it still helps us understand what we need to develop and focus on in our training.

PhilJ
10-09-2002, 12:11 AM
What's more dangerous? Disbelieving something without "proof" or believing something just because someone says so?

This sounds like the "fallacy of popular appeal", doesn't it? Just because multiple people believe something doesn't make that something "right". That simply isn't proof of anything.

Is it okay to be a sheep? Or is it okay to be blind? Or is there a middle ground in there somewhere?

L. Camejo
10-09-2002, 09:11 AM
Being blind sheep can't be that good :)

Creature_of_the_id
10-09-2002, 09:20 AM
Phillip, doesn't your argument work both ways?

Just because many people dont believe it, or it goes against popular oppinion of what is possible. Does not mean that it isnt true.

The same argument, of 'following the crowd' can be used by both sides of the argument

oopss.. cant finish my argument.. been told to work :p

Mark Balogh
04-26-2004, 10:18 AM
I think the interesting thing about the story is that he used techniques from ninjitsu to survive. Apparently he did a similar thing when his students asked him to demonstrate a technique from Ninjitsu. They all surrounded him, rushed him, he "disappeared" and was waving at them from the office! He also said that ninjitsu was the total opposite of Aikido. Maybe something he had learn't but he never taught? :confused:

Don_Modesto
04-26-2004, 10:59 AM
I think the interesting thing about the story is that he used techniques from ninjitsu to survive. Apparently he did a similar thing when his students asked him to demonstrate a technique from Ninjitsu. They all surrounded him, rushed him, he "disappeared" and was waving at them from the office! He also said that ninjitsu was the total opposite of Aikido. Maybe something he had learn't but he never taught? :confused:

Ninjutsu?!

This is the Stevens version, right?

(Man I wish he would cite his sources.)

DGLinden
04-26-2004, 12:20 PM
One of the saddest days of my life was the day I was invited to sit in the first row at a David Copperfield show. I saw how he did each and every trick except making a full sized running automobile appear inside a circle of people holding hands. Once you know how a magical thing happens, it is no longer magic.

I saw a living Aikido shihan cut bananas clean through without disturbing the skin; and he did it with ki alone. I describe it in the first chapter of my book and then tell how he did it. I'd also like to say that stories have a way of getting more and more out of proportion to what actually happened. Wine from water, indeed!

tedehara
04-26-2004, 01:20 PM
One of the saddest days of my life was the day I was invited to sit in the first row at a David Copperfield show. I saw how he did each and every trick except making a full sized running automobile appear inside a circle of people holding hands. Once you know how a magical thing happens, it is no longer magic.

I saw a living Aikido shihan cut bananas clean through without disturbing the skin; and he did it with ki alone. I describe it in the first chapter of my book and then tell how he did it. I'd also like to say that stories have a way of getting more and more out of proportion to what actually happened. Wine from water, indeed!Hasn't it been said that "The truth shall set you free"? Although there may be less magic in your life, it is replaced by more truth.

I recall seeing a two volume work of "Chi Tricks" used by Chinese Masters which was all simple stage illusion. BTW turning water into wine was one of the illusions.

Some people have a need to believe. I like looking behind the curtain, because I have a need to know.
;)

Justin Gaar
02-25-2005, 11:09 AM
As you may already be aware, witnesses are horrible historians. Rob
I was watching a TV Show last night on UFOS (Peter Jennings)
On skeptic scientist said that eyewitness accounts are the lowest form of evidence in science.

pezalinski
02-25-2005, 03:58 PM
:)

ryujin
02-25-2005, 04:53 PM
Hey Mike, this morning when I was out jogging, I saw god. She was african american.

And all this time I thought Alanis Morisette was "god". I figured if Kevin Smith portrayed "god" that way in a movie, it had to be true. But then again, if "god" is as all powerful as all of the non-witnesses say, I suppose she could have coerced mr. Smith into portraying her that way and then in all probability appear as an African American woman to you.

Hmmm....


:D

ryujin
02-25-2005, 05:37 PM
Please forward all my expressions of dissent to the shihan of your choice. Somehow I doubt they care if I believe it, either. Should my disbelief create such ill will in any of them that they seek me out to physically punish me for my human right of critical thought, then I'm really in the wrong martial art.

Or they are.

Lachlan Kadick
02-25-2005, 07:24 PM
After O'Sensei's war experiences, I believe that he just gained an understanding of how people handled guns, and was able to see how they were fired, like any other instinct that we gain as Aikidoka. It may or may not be exactly as told, but I believe that the gunmen may just have been so uptight that it was just even easier to tell the direction and O'Sensei moved just before the triggers were pulled... sort of like basic stand off between two samurai.

John Carey
02-26-2005, 01:52 PM
I was listening to the Dalai Lama speak about the value of extending your belief to the furthest reaches. He says, one might think that the belief in universal compassion is impractical. But in fact, the belief, and intent, to help bring every sentient being to enlightenment is quite beneficial.

Whether it happened or not, I like to believe it -could- happen.

"Sell your cleverness, and purchase bewilderment"
-Rumi

Lee Mulgrew
07-21-2006, 06:04 AM
[QUOTE=A number of witnesses saw Jesus walk on water. What he did defies most people's "common sense," yet billions of people throughout history believe that he did it. This fact also defies "common sense."[/QUOTE]

the thruth this statement is false, the translation could read that he eithter walked on, walked through or on the water depending on your defenition of the aramaic text that was used. this does not mean however, that i believe that O'sensei could move 25 metres in a split second to not only dodge a bullet but to get behind the person firing it. I mean.... come on! nobody's that good are they?

Steve Mullen
07-21-2006, 07:32 AM
Wow, jeez ummm where to start. Right.

Weather or not this happened, lets have a look at a few things. O'sensei didn't have to move 25 meters in less time than it took the bullet to hit, he had to move probably about a foot as all of the shooters will have been aiming at his body, (6 guys, one point to aim at, one small body to clear from the point) If the were revolvers then, as has been mentioned there would have been a click before the bang, he could have started his move then. I think a lot of people are addressing this from a view point of modern gunsa and bullets. It would be nigh on impossible for it to happen today as guns fire a lot quicker and bullets move a lot faster.

But back then, guns weren't as quick, bullets as well made etc, so there was more time between trigger being pulled, bullet leaving barrel of gun and bullet travelling 25 meters, thats all he would have needed to move his body out of the way of any number of bullets that were all aimed at the same place.

As for covering the distance, how long does it take people to do a few long rolls down the full length of a matt if they are really trying. 25 meters isn't a lot, 3 maybe 4 seconds. so from initial click to smoke clearing id say that O'sensei had pleanty of time to get there, notice he always threw the guy on the outside = less chance of someone firing late. Take all that with the point someone made of how they would have had to yell fire to all do it at the same time.

Weather he did actually did it or not, to me is immeterial, its not why I started my aikido, BUT if it is why some people did start it then what is the problem? It got them coming to class and then their love of Aikido kept them there. How much good did the Karate Kid do for Karate in the west? LOADS is the answer, does anyone hear people saying "Daniel Larusso didn't really kick that guy in the face with a crane kick, if he had tried the guy would have blocked and broke his leg".

The only thing that everyone seems to agree on here is that O'Sensei was a formidable martial artist and the whole aikido world should be gratefull to him for giving us Aikido. His bullet dodging-ninja skills are just part of what makes up this legend of O'sensei, his skills in Martial arts and budo are what made Aikido, and no one can dispute that the old guy knew what he was talking about there.

DonMagee
07-21-2006, 08:07 AM
I dont think there is a problem in people starting aikido because of a story like this. However there is a problem with people presenting a story like this as fact. This gives the the false idea that you will eventually be able to dodge bullets. This is just as bad as telling someone they can put up a ki shield to prevent all damage done to them by strikes, or that they can knock someone out with astrial spirts.

There are a lot of myths around most important cultural figures. They should be presented as such. Without knowing all the facts, and with only a single stroy to use as evidence (which you can't technically do), we can only call this a myth. It is still a great story though.

Of course there are plusable explainations as to how he could dodge bullets. I myself have dodged paintballs. However, every explaination simply points to the fact that the shooters were aiming at a spot, and not aiming at O'Sensei. But perhaps it was his training that allowed him to see that was the case and to not give up like he did with the sniper.

philippe willaume
07-21-2006, 08:42 AM
Hello,
I would like to give my 2 pennies worth here.

Unless you reaction time plus your movement time is inferior to the time it takes a revolver/handgun bullet to travel 20 meters. You are going to get it I.e. about 0.06 and 0.09 second. If we assume a handgun bullet between 300 and 400 ms and before WWII they were closer to 150-220.(0.16 to reach 25 meters). I would expect the really conservative way of thinking of the Japanese military to have ensured that handguns were in the lowest category. That is if you move when you see the flash of the propelling explosion since we are about the speed of sound, you will hear the bang just about getting hit.
Anyway, You simply cannot doge a handgun bullet after or as soon when it is fired (unless you are a vampire, quick silver, the green lantern or flash).
For those who haven’t been in the French armed forces, we usually shot handguns (revolver or automatic) at 25 and 50 meters. 25 meters usually being where the aiming line crosses trajectory of the bullet. (or there about).
Sharp shooting is a tad contradictory with handguns, it has low velocity and a fair variance in the ballistic characteristic (unless specially designed for completion shooting which was not the case for military grade weapons). It saving grace is that the target is going to get most of the bullet energy hence lots of damages.

Revolver can be double or simple action, in a simple action you need to cock the hammer manually. In a bobble action pressing the trigger with cock the hammer and rotate the barrel, and let the hammer strike back the cartridge primer.
From my personal experience, due to the lack of stability and the type of weapon, I find handguns slight slower to track and aim than SMG or rifles.
Handguns are quick to deploy and quick to track, which is what makes them good for close quarter fighting as you can use those characteristics with “instinctive shooting”
But in that case25 meters is a hell of a long way.

However, recently law enforcement and military have been intrested in a few “dodging the bullet” return fire strategy.
“Stand and deliver” have being (and is) the usual handgun strategy, but dropping to one knee as you take aim and or moving to the 10 or 2 o’clock of the opposing shooter and firing several rounds in both case.
Seems to have a better survability rate. Both those technique requires moving before the shot of you opponent is fired. (i.e. when you are acquired or when the weapon is brought to bear not when it is being shot)

In case where the opponent shot at a target, or should we say the space the target occupy, which the case when shooting at a fixed target (especially in volley fire).
The acquisition and tracking is done before the shoot. If you add the firing order movement will throw you off, , and eventually the double action cocking.
That gives the potential target time to get away or in other terms starting before you.
So I would say it is feasible

However if you shot at a moving target, you will delay your shot until you are satisfied with tracking and aiming. This make moving before the shooting order much less efficient if you cannot return fire.

If you want to experiment paint ball are doing 100 m/s or 150 for “military simulator. Which for all intent and purposes it is good enough.

Lee Mulgrew
08-03-2006, 05:10 AM
Wow, jeez ummm where to start. Right.

Weather or not this happened, lets have a look at a few things. O'sensei didn't have to move 25 meters in less time than it took the bullet to hit, he had to move probably about a foot as all of the shooters will have been aiming at his body, (6 guys, one point to aim at, one small body to clear from the point) If the were revolvers then, as has been mentioned there would have been a click before the bang, he could have started his move then. I think a lot of people are addressing this from a view point of modern gunsa and bullets. It would be nigh on impossible for it to happen today as guns fire a lot quicker and bullets move a lot faster.

But back then, guns weren't as quick, bullets as well made etc, so there was more time between trigger being pulled, bullet leaving barrel of gun and bullet travelling 25 meters, thats all he would have needed to move his body out of the way of any number of bullets that were all aimed at the same place.

As for covering the distance, how long does it take people to do a few long rolls down the full length of a matt if they are really trying. 25 meters isn't a lot, 3 maybe 4 seconds. so from initial click to smoke clearing id say that O'sensei had pleanty of time to get there, notice he always threw the guy on the outside = less chance of someone firing late. Take all that with the point someone made of how they would have had to yell fire to all do it at the same time.

Weather he did actually did it or not, to me is immeterial, its not why I started my aikido, BUT if it is why some people did start it then what is the problem? It got them coming to class and then their love of Aikido kept them there. How much good did the Karate Kid do for Karate in the west? LOADS is the answer, does anyone hear people saying "Daniel Larusso didn't really kick that guy in the face with a crane kick, if he had tried the guy would have blocked and broke his leg".

The only thing that everyone seems to agree on here is that O'Sensei was a formidable martial artist and the whole aikido world should be gratefull to him for giving us Aikido. His bullet dodging-ninja skills are just part of what makes up this legend of O'sensei, his skills in Martial arts and budo are what made Aikido, and no one can dispute that the old guy knew what he was talking about there.

Fair point(s) mate ;) I'll just go shut up now :blush: :D

Steve Mullen
08-03-2006, 06:54 AM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO please don't we still love you :D :D :D :p

Steve Mullen
08-03-2006, 07:00 AM
the thruth this statement is false, the translation could read that he eithter walked on, walked through or on the water depending on your defenition of the aramaic text that was used.

See this is really interesting, I read a similar thing about moses parting the red sea. The text for red and reed is apparently similar in aramaic, and there was a stretch of water next to the red sea which was filled with reeds, the pilgrims would have been able to get through, but any kind of chariot would have had great trouble getting through it. As the years went on I guess the story got glorified (as always happens). A similar thing may have happened with the o'sensei story.

He may have dodged out of the way of the bullet, and then ran at the guy and threw him, but over the years the distance has got bigger, and the time it took him shorter.

Both great stories tho.

ian
08-03-2006, 07:40 AM
I had heard the stoy before Shiodas book had come out. I would say I believe it. Reaction times are about 1/4 second (much slower than a bullet). What is required is the judgement of when someone is going to fire. Basically if a group of people all fire at once and aim at you directly, and you can judge when they will fire, dodging bullets is not that difficult. 'intuition' is a key skill to develop in aikido. Ueshiba said he could see golden bullets - I think that is a mystical way of saying he could predict when someone was going to fire. Dodging bullets from an untrained person would be much more difficult (as you don't know where they are firing!)

P.S. the speed of a bullet is dependent on the length of the barrel, so modern bullets don't necessarily travel faster.

Luc X Saroufim
08-03-2006, 08:03 AM
as always, some people will interpret this story literally, some figuratively, and some in between.

frankly, i don't see what is so unbelieveable about this story. teino tenkan is (IMHO) the foundation of aikido. it is always the first technique we practice in the dojo.

this story simply reinforces the notion that you can dodge *any* attack if you are behind it before it happens. the story is not important, the moral of the story is what's important.

same with religion: some people think it's fairy tales, some people take it literally. in my opinion, the significance of religion lies in the purpose.

Dajo251
08-03-2006, 10:37 AM
I love alot of the stories about O'sensei that I have read, alot of them make he seem more like a figure out of mythology though, I do believe there is alot of truth to all of the stories but I think they have been embelished which is not an unusual occurance. Much like the fisher man who started out with catching the small big mouth bass and eventually he talks about the massive struggle he had in which he wrestled a bull shark with his bare hands and finally threw him onto the boat, or something like that

Tim Olds
08-03-2006, 08:32 PM
[QUOTE=Lee Mulgrew]the thruth this statement is false, the translation could read that he eithter walked on, walked through or on the water depending on your defenition of the aramaic text /QUOTE]

I should probably just let this go. but... since you were talking about Jesus walking on water... um, I'm pretty sure the New Testament was written in Greek, not Aramaic.

And since the exact translation seems important to you, the Greek word used to describe Jesus walking on the water is "epi" (spelled epsilon pi iota... sorry I don't have a Greek letter font).

The translation of "epi" is "on" or "upon"

<bowing deeply to Jun for being off-topic>


Tim-the-religion-major

thkun
08-08-2006, 09:35 PM
these were really unbelievable stories. i cant believe that kind of legend. osensei was a great sensei but he was not superman. i dont think anyone can escape the bullet. if yes, please provide evidents. this is ridiculous and illogical to believe such kind of things. how could they knew osensei can really escape the bullets before they fired. if osensei couldnt escape , who would take the responsible to kill an old man.

i know many people treat osensei as god. but i rather believe these kinds of stories are for promotion of aikido.

Guilty Spark
08-08-2006, 10:32 PM
i know many people treat osensei as god. but i rather believe these kinds of stories are for promotion of aikido.

I agree. I feel the same way about jesus.
Maybe Jesus and Ueshiba just had great PR guys.

Steve Mullen
08-09-2006, 07:23 AM
Can you imagine their PR guys having an argument

"my guy can dodge bullets, and throw people for miles with no effort, his kiai is so powerful it can knock birds out of trees, he created a martial art that has spread across the world, he was kicking ass to his last"

"my guy is the son of god"

"you win"

Guilty Spark
08-09-2006, 08:10 AM
Hey Jesus's PR guys had 400 years to work with :)

Will Prusner
10-30-2007, 11:42 AM
I know this thread has been abandoned for awhile, but I just wanted to mention that I think O'sensei could have kicked Jesus's ass. I believe he would have also vanquished Moses, as long as Moses was not allowed to turn his staff into a cobra. Noah, probably would have had a better chance as long as the fight took place on the ark. Noah, having an intimate knowledge of the ark's layout was probably very wily and ninja-like while on the vessel.

:straightf

Timothy WK
10-30-2007, 12:12 PM
I don't normally like re-opening threads, but since someone else already has...

I came upon this video of [Akira Hino (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On5eEyDvmLs)] awhile ago and thought of the Ueshiba story. At around 2:00, Hino has the people hold a fake gun and yell "Bang!", and proceeds to (very obviously) dodge the "bullet".

Certainly, Hino is quick, and it's unlikely this would work if he wasn't that fast. But what I think Hino is doing is largely psychological. If you watch, you can see him move a split second before they "shoot". I think he's doing one of two things:

--He may be reading their movements/intention and then reacting faster than they are.
--He may be kinda "leading" the people into shooting. He starts moving on his own, which causes the shooters to panic and "shoot", though at that point it's too late and he's already moved.

To my eyes, the latter seems like the more plausible option, but I can't tell exactly what he's doing.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-30-2007, 03:09 PM
--He may be kinda "leading" the people into shooting. He starts moving on his own, which causes the shooters to panic and "shoot", though at that point it's too late and he's already moved.

To my eyes, the latter seems like the more plausible option, but I can't tell exactly what he's doing.

And that's what Ueshiba probably did, and the cause of his "failure" when tried the same stunt with Sadajiro Sato.

Dewey
10-30-2007, 08:11 PM
http://www.geocities.com/bp_dewey/fail.jpg

Avery Jenkins
10-31-2007, 07:22 PM
Once again, it's Brian Dewey FTW!

Joseph Tutton
10-31-2007, 10:04 PM
About this time last year, I was at the bookstore with a friend of mine. My friend, Greg, has never studied the martial arts in a formal setting, but he was a bouncer for many years. I finished shopping before him, and while he was waiting in line at the cashier's, I went to the reference desk to see about a book I had ordered. No one was behind the counter, so I stepped up and looked on the shelf to see if my book had come in.

While I was standing there, a fellow came to the counter and started asking about what to do about a problem he was having with the telephone company. I explained that I did not work there, and stepped from behind the counter. I told him that no one was here at the counter, but he probably needed to talk to the telephone company. He gradually became more agitated, telling me about his problem and that he needed it fixed before the weekend (this was a Friday). It became obvious that the fellow needed his "med.s" and apparently hadn't taken them. My friend shot me a questioning look from his place in the checkout line, and without looking directly at him, I gave a little grin that all was cool. Keeping my hands at my sides, I dropped my center of gravity as close to the center of the earth as possible, and continued to try to explain to our "patient" that no one here could really help, and he needed to talk to the phone company, all the while watching my friend in my peripheral vision.

Our "patient" continued to get more agitated. He was about my size and clearly disturbed. The only question was, that if something goes down, do I really hurt him, as in a disabling kick to the knee or multiple punches to sensitive areas, or do I try some Aikido that I have never tested on a similar nut-case. If I had been alone, of course, there would have been no question. But, as Greg was backing me up, I would try to simply restrain the guy, unless he pulled a weapon.

Our "patient's" excitement progressed to the point that he made a little feinting, lunging move to try to draw me into something. I could tell it was a feint, and did not move my hands from my sides. The "patient" continued ranting. But something miraculous happened: Greg disappeared.

This was not the result of adrenaline induced tunnel-vision. I had kept him in my peripheral vision the entire time, and I could still see everyone else around me. My friend was just not there. Our "patient" could sense something weird had happened. He looked all around him, and he did not see Greg -- he just wasn't there. The "patient" rambled on for a minute and then left the store. Then Greg walked up, out of nowhere, and asked "What was that about?"

I have read interviews with more than one of Bruce Lee's students describing how they would be preparing to spar with him, then, without him seeming to move, he would be behind them, slapping them in the head. And I know the story of Ueshiba O-Sensei and the Mongol brigands (though I had not heard about the arms inspectors and gun master Sato). It is easy to attribute these stories to exaggeration, like Ninja movie myths. Like it is hard to believe someone could drive his hand through ten slabs of concrete -- until one has seen it.

All I know is that I "saw" Greg disappear, in a relatively benign encounter. I am confident that Ueshiba O-Sensei could access capabilities at least equal to those of my friend, in a life-and-death situation. Then, of course, there is God. Or if one prefers, "All is (in the) Void."

Dewey
10-31-2007, 11:23 PM
I came upon this video of [Akira Hino (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On5eEyDvmLs)]...

Completely off-topic, but the chick in the video is hot!

Talon
10-31-2007, 11:57 PM
Completely off-topic, but the chick in the video is hot!

No Kidding....

Joseph Tutton
11-01-2007, 02:33 AM
William Prusner
Moses passed on to me his snake. You should be slower to make jokes unless you mean them.

Jory Boling
11-01-2007, 05:49 AM
Completely off-topic, but the chick in the video is hot!

she is Nishiyama Maki (西山茉希).

and i did my best to bring this back to Ueshiba vs. Gun Squad. please forgive me.

uhh.. i'll show the video to my sword sensei and see what he thinks of it?

thanks.

Will Prusner
11-01-2007, 11:15 AM
William Prusner
Moses passed on to me his snake. You should be slower to make jokes unless you mean them.

Well, that's fine and dandy... and you may win... but it will be considered by all to be shoddy aikido. Poisonous Snake Waza. Sounds more Kung Fu than Aikido.

W.

p.s. - and it won't be easy to track me down, thanks to this nifty Ark I inherited from some old dead guy.

Joseph Tutton
11-02-2007, 03:58 PM
William

Good response. I've no intention to track anyone down over a poor sense of humor, though I guess it sounded that way. My point was that I know certain things to be facts that most people are sure are myths.

If we make jokes about the highest spiritual achievements of mankind, out of our cynicism, it makes it much more difficult for the divine to show itself to us. We limit what we can achieve to the mundane.

I set the snake free 3 1/2 years ago; don't know who has it now. Enjoy the Ark :)

Joseph

Will Prusner
11-02-2007, 04:09 PM
I completely understand, and actually haven't made my mind up about any of it (Ueshiba's abilities). Fact is, I want it to be true. I have personally seen/done some things that the majority of folks wouldn't believe even with video proof and signed affidavits by nuns. I do believe in the mystery. I look around corners, expecting the "impossible" manifest.

When it comes right down to it, I just make statements about historical and religous figures engaging in adolescent behavior to be inflammatory. :sorry:

I'd pay whatever it cost to see those match-ups though...:drool:

W.

steven turner
11-13-2007, 02:52 PM
:do: I found this on another website, sorry about the length, but what do you think of this?

Excerpt of Aikido Shugyo - Gozo Shioda's Autobiography

Avoiding the concentrated fire of revolvers

Talking about weird things, let me talk about an extremely strange event. This
is also something I actually witnessed with my own eyes. One time an official
from the munitions department of the army, together with 9 military personnel,
came to visit the Ueshiba Dojo. They came to watch the wonderful art of aikido
that they had heard about. These people were arms inspectors. They tested new
weapons and judged whether the sights were accurate or not. Their shooting
ability was Olympic level, and I noticed that they hit the target every time.

Ueshiba Sensei, who had done a demonstration before these people that day, had
claimed, "Bullets cannot reach me." I had, of course, previously heard that
when he was in Mongolia he had avoided the bullets of horse-mounted brigands,
but this was quite different. The inspectors' pride was hurt and they were
quite angry. "You're sure that the bullets won't touch you?" they asked. "Oh,
no, they won't." "Then would you like to try?" "Sure."

They took him at his word and promptly arranged the date that they were to meet
at the Okubo Army Shooting Centre. Before the date, they made Ueshiba Sensei
write officially that he had agreed to become a living target for the army
officers and got him to place his fingerprint on the document. As a further
precaution and verification, they took the document to the army court.
Therefore, even if Sensei was shot and killed, nobody could lodge a complaint.

The appointed day arrived, and a military car came to pick Sensei up to take
him to the shooting area in Okubo. Mr. Yukawa and myself accompanied him.
Naturally, Sensei's wife was very anxious and beseeched him to change his mind.
but Sensei kept replying light-heatedly, "It's all right., they will never hit
their target." Mr. Yukawa and myself were also very concerned; to the point
where we were wondering if it wouldn't be wise to make funeral preparations.
When we reached the shooting area, another surprise was waiting for us. I was
expecting only one gun to be aimed at Sensei, but we discovered that six men
would be firing pistols at him. The best range for pistols was 25 metres and,
normally, a target in the shape of a human is placed at this distance. This
time, however, Ueshiba Sensei was standing there in place of the doll. The six
men then positioned themselves, aiming at Ueshiba Sensei. While staring at him,
I kept thinking helplessly that twenty-five meters is a considerable distance,
and was wondering what on earth Sensei could do from there.

One, two, three…. The six revolvers fired at the same time and a cloud of dust
whirled around us. Then, suddenly, one of the six marksmen was flying through
the air! What had happened? Before we could figure it out, Sensei was standing
behind the six men, laughing into his beard.
We all were bewildered. I really and truly could not understand what had
happened. Not just me, but everyone present was so stunned that we could not
find words to express our shock. The six inspectors were not yet convinced and
asked if Sensei could do it again. "All right" he answered indifferently.

Once again, the six barrels were aimed at Ueshiba Sensei and were fired. This
time the inspector at the edge of the group flew into the air. In exactly the
same way as before, Ueshiba Sensei was standing behind the six inspectors
before we knew what was happening. I was dumbfounded. That time I had promised
myself to watch carefully in order to see exactly what Sensei was doing. But
even though I had tried very hard, I was completely unable to see how he had
moved.

Facing Ueshiba Sensei were the barrels of the six revolvers which had been
fired. This far I could remember clearly, but the next stage, where Sensei had
moved the distance of 25 metres and thrown one of the six marksmen, I simply
could not understand. I couldn't find any explanation for other than "God
techniques."

Flying golden balls

On our way back I asked, "Sensei, how could you do such a thing?" and I
received the following answer. Before the explosion, as the trigger is pulled,
a flash like a golden ball flies off. The actual bullet of the revolver comes
later, therefore it is easy to avoid.

In this case, even though the six men intend to shoot at the same time, they
are never exactly together. Because they shoot at slightly different times, I
just have to go to the one who is going to fire first. "The golden flash has a
spectacular noise," said Sensei. According to him, after the noise he would
begin to run. He ran in the shape of a ninja with his back bent, taking short
slow steps. The real bullet would come after he had already leapt forward about
half the distance. Sensei said that the time between the flash of gold and the
bullet was quite long, but for us watching, everything happened so quickly that
we had no idea that he was trying to get close enough to throw the first man
that had fired.

"God has said that I am necessary for this world and has decided to let me
live. My period of purification is not over so I cannot die. When I am not
necessary for this world anymore the gods will let me pass away." Sensei seemed
to be convinced, but of course we couldn't understand what he meant. I know
that you readers will have difficulty believing in stories like this, but these
kind of strange things really did happen.

Challenge with a master hunter

There is another story that relates to the previous one.

One of my acquaintances, Mr. Sadajiro Sato, was a hunter from Yamanashi
Prefecture. He was known as a master of gun hunting. For example, hunters
usually aim at and shoot pheasants when they are descending to the ground. At
this moment it is said that their flying speed is around 200 kilometres per
hour. If the pheasant is shot in the head it will drop straight to the ground,
but if the bullet hits the body it will fall a long way away. Accordingly,
hunters would try to aim for the head, which is not an easy target to hit. The
point is the Mr. Sato would hit the head every time he shot--he was the master
of masters.

One day I told Mr. Sato the story of Ueshiba Sensei avoiding the six revolvers.
"Even if he did that I am sure he won't be able to avoid mine," said Mr. Sato
confidently. "A human head is much bigger than that of the birds that I am used
to shooting. I cannot imagine missing that." Having said that, Mr. Sato came
down out of the mountains to challenge Ueshiba Sensei. I accompanied him to the
Ueshiba Dojo land told Sensei that Mr. Sato wished to challenge him. Sensei
accepted the proposal.

I watched carefully, and a bit anxiously, as Sensei sat down in seiza at the
far end of the Dojo while Mr. Sato took distance and aimed. And then just as he
was on the verge of pulling the trigger, Sensei dropped his head in recognition
and said, "Wait! Your bullet will hit me! Your thoughts are undistorted, and
clearly you want to hit me. From the beginning you've known that you are going
to hit your target. I cannot avoid the gun of such a man, you are a true
master!"

Mr. Sato returned happily to his mountains. I was deeply impressed. Mr. Sato
was a gun master, and Ueshiba Sensei recognised that and withdrew. It was proof
that a master can recognise another master. I was very fortunate to have been
able to see two precious masters challenging each other.
I just want to say that its a fantastic story if it is true what an amazing experience it would be for any one to see mr Ueshiba a true Legend.

steven turner :ai: :ki: :do: :)

steven turner
11-13-2007, 07:00 PM
I think its a fantastic story, How wonderful it must of been to see Master Ueshiba a true great legend.

caelifera
01-20-2009, 03:33 PM
I still don't buy it. And I still don't "need" to buy it; he was great either way. As far as Jeusus goes, he was the son of God. O'sensei wasn't.

Respectfully,

Patrik

Amen

gdandscompserv
01-20-2009, 04:03 PM
resurrection:D

lbb
01-20-2009, 05:31 PM
Superman could totally beat up Batman. And Bruce Lee too.

mathewjgano
01-20-2009, 06:02 PM
Superman could totally beat up Batman. And Bruce Lee too.

Ok...but even at the same time? And what if Batman uses his kryptonite-encrusted utility belt and Bruce Lee has kryptonite nunchucks? I do believe their Kryptonite should trump your so-called Super Man. Muahahahhahaaah! evileyes :D

Ketsan
01-20-2009, 09:32 PM
I once saw a guy run the full length of a paintball field, through a rather intense firefight, capture the flag and run back without getting hit.
Sometimes stuff that shouldn't happen just does.

RonRagusa
01-20-2009, 10:41 PM
Ok...but even at the same time? And what if Batman uses his kryptonite-encrusted utility belt and Bruce Lee has kryptonite nunchucks? I do believe their Kryptonite should trump your so-called Super Man. Muahahahhahaaah! evileyes :D

No way man. Supe, being himself no dummy, would just stand off at a safe distance and use his super freeze breath and x-ray vision. IceBat and ToastLee. Let's hear it for maai.:D

Ron

Will Prusner
01-21-2009, 02:26 AM
well... i'm glad i wasn't the first or last person to necro this thread. :)

mathewjgano
01-21-2009, 06:46 AM
Sometimes stuff that shouldn't happen just does.

That's a fact! As my dear ol' pappy used to say, " life is often stranger than fiction."

I once saw a guy run the full length of a paintball field, through a rather intense firefight, capture the flag and run back without getting hit.
I hear ya. I used to play a lot and whenever I was about to be overwhelmed I usually did something like that. One time I ran into a well-covered clearing about 10'x10' covered by about 7 or 8 people. They saw me and heard me coming a mile away (it must've been my "kiai" that unbalanced their aim:cool: ) but I ran right into their base, grabbed their flag and ran right back out. I almost stopped because i expected to get hit...the plan was pretty much to run in and get shot a bunch...you know, "blaze of glory" style. Instead I went unscathed. Now, I didn't see any rays of light telling me where the shots were going so my situation was almost definately a cosmic coincidence...er...I mean, I totally atemi'd them with my mind!
...Sounds cooler that way.

Ketsan
01-21-2009, 09:10 PM
That's a fact! As my dear ol' pappy used to say, " life is often stranger than fiction."

I hear ya. I used to play a lot and whenever I was about to be overwhelmed I usually did something like that. One time I ran into a well-covered clearing about 10'x10' covered by about 7 or 8 people. They saw me and heard me coming a mile away (it must've been my "kiai" that unbalanced their aim:cool: ) but I ran right into their base, grabbed their flag and ran right back out. I almost stopped because i expected to get hit...the plan was pretty much to run in and get shot a bunch...you know, "blaze of glory" style. Instead I went unscathed. Now, I didn't see any rays of light telling me where the shots were going so my situation was almost definately a cosmic coincidence...er...I mean, I totally atemi'd them with my mind!
...Sounds cooler that way.

I've seen rays, some of them golden :D

Two of my mates and I ghosted down the left flank into what's meant to be a village with a church. There's apparently one guy there, which is just too weird. So I (being the teams ghost) went on a recce.
All hell breaks loose, as in, there were many rays all flying around.:D So I rush back to the other pair and we peel all the way to the bushes.
The marshall then pulls out like five or six guys and there wasn't really much choice, we had to attack, so we went in, cleared the church and the grave yard, rays everywhere. :D Then we start taking fire from these huts, so we fight our way upto the door of the first hut, stack up and then everything gets mental. :D

My mate chucks a paint grenade in and we storm the place. They're shooting, we're shooting, marshall jumps in. They're all eliminated we're good, so we jump into the next hut, same thing, next hut same thing, all the way down the line of these huts.
All five huts nicely repainted in a delightful yellow. :D

So we've taken this village off the enemy, taking out somewhere around sixteen people, most of it at VERY close quarters without getting hit once. Clearly our ki deflects paintballs. :D

Dewey
01-22-2009, 09:24 AM
Superman could totally beat up Batman. And Bruce Lee too.

Indeed (*sniffs*). You forgot about the Joker as well as Jigaro Kano and the Four Heavenly Lords of Kodokan Judo.

well... i'm glad i wasn't the first or last person to necro this thread. :)

Meh (*waves hand dismissively*). This is only it's first resurrection. There is another thread on this forum....that which must not be named...it has risen from it's slumber several times. I dare not speak its name aloud. Longtime members here know of it...but dare not utter its name, for the very utterance of it will call it forth from the distended bowels of the Aikiweb archives.

--------
Seriously, though. As has been stated in this thread before, it is inevitable for martial arts to mythologize the founder of their system. And with each passing generation removed from the founder, the facts become embellished legends, and legends become myths. Some myths are fun...others lead to dillusional notions concerning what exactly "is" Aikido.

Walter Martindale
01-22-2009, 12:14 PM
Old threads never die, they just lose their links.

danielab1924
02-04-2009, 06:54 PM
wow, that was impressive. so in the end really it's all about the mind and not so much of how fast or efficient you're moving. of course you have to move at a certain speed and skill level if you don't wish to die but it seems that the mind triumphs.

-Danielaevileyes
:ai: :ki: :do: