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Unregistered
09-30-2002, 10:57 PM
Hmm . . . not really sure how to start, so I'll get right to the point. Partnered up with a woman last night and at some point, while she was uke, her breast popped out of her jacket. After class she told me that she never wears a bra during training, for reasons of comfort. Has this ever happened to anyone else? And for the women, do you know if this practice is common?

batemanb
09-30-2002, 11:36 PM
Have a look at this old thread, there was a lot of conversation on a similar topic

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1916

mike lee
10-01-2002, 03:04 AM
Mammary glands sustain young lives.

Puritainism shouldn't be taken beyond
common sense.

:do:

Ta Kung
10-01-2002, 03:27 AM
Well, I never wear underwear when I practise, and sometimes when I least expect it my... never mind, just kidding. :)

I thought women would prefer being a bit uncomfortable, rather then flashing their jumblies in class.

/Patrik

Unregistered
10-01-2002, 06:29 AM
I get a wedgie if I don't wear underwear. Anyone else?

warriorwoman
10-01-2002, 10:28 AM
I always get a kick out of the excuses exhibitionists come up with to explain their behavior, as though no one else is aware of their need for attention. What your partner was telling you was that she was more comfortable having her breast exposed to you and anyone else watching than having it restricted to merely someone who is involved in an intimate relationship with her. Her own "comfort" takes precedence over your discomfort at having to deal with the situation in a polite way. If she were truly interested in "comfort", she'd probably be getting a massage instead of training in Aikido. A T-shirt under her jacket would easily protect her modesty if she was truly that uncomfortable wearing a bra. I suspect your sensei will eventually either suggest that himself or have a senior woman in your dojo speak with her about it.

janet dtantirojanarat

www.warriorwoman.org

Veers
10-01-2002, 11:47 AM
Good perspective, Janet. I think you're right.

Bruce Baker
10-01-2002, 03:31 PM
It is even more embarrassing when men have bigger breasts than women.

Don't worry, if you don't breath in the wrong tube and start gagging, it really wasn't that big a deal.

What kind of defense would you put up to barechested women trying to kill you?

Get over it.

Bruce Baker
10-01-2002, 03:40 PM
I see that there was some question of modesty when a woman with out a bra, either sports spandex or normal, had a breast pop out in practice. Well, what the hell would you do to protect yourself if you had to fight your way out of a building with semi naked women?

Really ... and the same for women facing naked men, what you gonna do?

I sure hope you are not caught up in th idea of dwelling upon the nudity, cause if they are gonna hurt or kill you, you ain't gonna have time to oogle.

I have my own ideas about gaining clear insight in training as to neutralize the debilitating imagination that runs amuck, but what do you think is the way to curb the sexual libido and get on with practice?

Abasan
10-01-2002, 10:03 PM
Fighting your way out of a building filled with bare chested women? This could only happen in B Grade movies... :p and naked men?

Well, anything loose and not protected are potential targets.

Unregistered
10-08-2002, 02:23 AM
She was wearing what is called a nuclear Gi...the very real danger of fallout ;)

Sheesh what some people wo do to be the centre of attention.

mike lee
10-08-2002, 04:36 AM
I always get a kick out of the excuses exhibitionists come up with to explain their behavior, as though no one else is aware of their need for attention.

And I get a kick out of people who can make snap judgments and label someone that they don't even know.

Sherman Byas
10-08-2002, 08:30 AM
She was being an exhibitionist. She knew good and d#$%n well there was a chance of her boob popping out. It's quite likely that the person that saw it was who she intended to see it. Now she better not complain if he looks at her chest every once in a while. Let's tell the truth, SHE FLASHED HIM! For comfort, yeah right. Why was the sports bra made?

On another note, I don't see how you guys take ukemi without some sort of support. I took a breakfall once with boxers 'stead of my JStrap and I "felt" it. All the way up to my throat. Over the long run that can't be for your "twig & berries".

mike lee
10-08-2002, 09:42 AM
She was being an exhibitionist. She knew good and d#$%n well there was a chance of her boob popping out.

How do you know this?

Sherman Byas
10-08-2002, 10:54 AM
Simple. As a guy I KNOW that during class the top of my dogi will be pulled, snatched, grasped, jerked and handled in such away as to expose my chest. When that happens I straighten it out. Every guy that practices will do this. Now, if I had boobies and I practiced braless I better not be surprised if one was exposed. That's like me watchng the weather and they say "90% chence of precipitation", walking down the street with no umbrella, and then acting surprised if I get wet. I stand by what I said.

Unregistered
10-08-2002, 11:14 AM
I think it depends on if you wear a judo gi or one of those karate gis with the side ties. If the former, I'd say exhibitionist; they tend to gape open. If the latter, possibly honest mistake, but I can't imagine that practicing braless would be very comfortable unless you're pretty flat-chested.

Unregistered
10-08-2002, 11:21 AM
Wow. Is it really that important what her motivation was? Who cares? It's what you do with it and what you learn from it that counts, no?

Bronson
10-08-2002, 02:05 PM
A story was recounted in the dojo recently. One of the guys was telling how when he was 19 and taking karate he was sparring with a woman. This particular woman practiced braless and would occasionally grab her gi and pull it open to flash him. When he looked she would hit him :D He got hit a lot.

Bronson

mj
10-08-2002, 04:32 PM
Why was the sports bra made?
To make women look buff?

PeterR
10-08-2002, 06:19 PM
Nobody but nobody has yet to beat my mawashi story.

No idea what happened, why it happened, what she was thinking but its a fact of life - some people are far less obsessed with showing body parts and more with comfort. Where I'm from she wouldn't have gotten a second glance.

Get over it or call it training in the immoveable mind.

Unregistered
10-09-2002, 01:16 PM
I believe this type of behavior to be quite common.

My husband has been training for some time, and over the years I have met a certain kind of woman who enters the art for the sole purpose of "finding a man". After all, the art is dominated by men. These women know the practice involves body contact and often use that as an opportunity to flirt.

I know of several instances where affairs have resulted, at least three in Aikido of Marin that involved married men.

I think it should be up to the sensei to set an appropriate moral tone and not tolerate this.

giriasis
10-09-2002, 02:25 PM
I'm not so certain this behavior is common. I'm sure there are just as many men looking for dates from the women who come to train in aikido. And if that is all they are interested then I don't think they last very long. But I've seen most people of both genders focused on their training while on the mat. If you find it common where you are then the sensei is not setting the proper tone in the dojo.

I find this kind of behavior, whether male or female, inappropriate. Someone should suggest to this woman to cover up somehow--whether it's a bra or just a tee-shirt or tank top (if she likes being free). It's not about puritanism or modesty but about creating a positive training atmosphere for both men and women.

tlurie
10-09-2002, 03:33 PM
I agree with AnneMarie... if a woman came to our dojo with the sole purpose of finding a man, I doubt she would last long. If your dojo is training hard, people with the wrong motives will find another place to hunt.

Kevin Wilbanks
10-09-2002, 06:19 PM
I don't see why everyone is being so uptight about this. At my old dojo, we used to train completely naked every other Friday - lots of koshinage and breakfall techniques. After class, we'd all migrate downstairs to a nice room full of cushions, massage oil, sex toys, and a full bar. We'd just have a nice little orgy until about midnight or so. We called them "Smut'n'Slam Fridays".

giriasis
10-09-2002, 08:28 PM
:eek me?!? uptight?!? never.... ;) wouldn't even think about it.

I got my haircut short (about 8 inches cut off) and some of the guys in class tonight said it looked really good. ~hands on hips~ I mean; I lose 20 pounds and change my hairstyle and their allll over me. ;) Now, that's inappropriate. ;) (seriously tongue in cheeck) OR maybe they just like a good training partner...nothing like a woman who can do a sharp nikkyo. ;)

Kevin Wilbanks
10-09-2002, 10:54 PM
Wow. Losing twenty pounds, cutting off most of your hair, and cranking on guys' wrists until they beg for mercy is definitely sexy in my book. Grab a shotgun, put on a pair of combat boots, and blow away a couple dozen flesh-eating zombies and I'm yours...

mike lee
10-10-2002, 02:56 AM
These women know the practice involves body contact and often use that as an opportunity to flirt.

Just another part of training in the combat zone. Can't take the heat? Get out of the kitchen. But sitting up on the high-horse a judging an unknown with a twisted Puritain ethic is a far bigger problem than a nuclear gi. :do:

Unregistered
10-10-2002, 06:20 AM
>>nothing like a woman who can do a sharp nikkyo.

Amen to that!! :D

aikigreg
10-10-2002, 09:40 AM
In my dojo we've a girl who only comes because her boyfriend does. She chatters through the class, flirts, squeaks (literally) and is generally a disruption. Sensei will demonstrate a technique that involves, say, a wrist grab. Then when she partners up she doesn't even know what she's supposed to be doing cause she hasn't paid attention. Not to mention the low cut sweats she wears those show almost her whole butt - crack-held thong included. It's distracting and annoying.

Our sempai however - she kicks ass and takes names. I enjoy having women on the mat who actually want to be there. I might pursue a friendship with them OUTSIDE the dojo but that has no bearing on INSIDE the dojo.

Eila Saarni
10-12-2002, 04:40 PM
soo for the first post.:

why wasent she wearing an undershirt? or was she?

Eila Saarni
10-12-2002, 04:45 PM
A bit off the subject but why no... ok there are a few dudes at my dojo who seem umm a bit umm atracted to me and I dont like it, with those few that is,I don know if thats it with them but its a bit off putting when they are starring intently at you when your trying to train,or worse yet trying to pull moves on you when you end up with them, they have not suceeded in that, I'd like to keep it that way. any sugjestions ignoring them more, or getting them to knock it off?

unregistered
10-12-2002, 05:14 PM
to Eila:

If they are staring, you can always say, "what are YOU looking at?" Or make funny faces at them til they snap out of it. Or ask them if there's something wrong, cause you noticed they were staring.

If they are verbally hitting on you (and you want them to stop) talk alot about your wonderful boyfriend. If you don't have a wonderful boyfriend, you can make one up, who COULD own a beachfront villa and be very possessive.

If it's as bad as groping, option one is to Loudly Object - shriek "get your hands off of me, you pervert!", option two is to complain to the instructor. That's assuming they are senior to you and you can't yet beat them up (option three).

I'm guessing you are relatively new and/or relatively young.

giriasis
10-12-2002, 06:47 PM
If they're just giving you a silly grin, just ask them what their grinning about. They'll be embarrased and get back to training. If the flirtation is more overt than that, you can simply say thay you came to learn aikido and not be hit on. If the flirtation turns into something more such as groping, tell them to never do it again and then tell your sensei. Groping is not acceptable behavior.

You make a good point though that flirtatious behavior comes from both sexes. It is good practice to keep hormones off of the mat.

Eila Saarni
10-12-2002, 11:30 PM
Ok:) Thank ya unregistered and giriasis

or : Domo arigato, I'm still open for sugjestions, but I'll think along some of the terms of your options/actions... (I do wonder if that sentence made sense...eh its late,not that late but late,late like dark out and--- forget it;);))

warriorwoman
10-15-2002, 11:33 AM
To Mike Lee:

I understand that you're merely playing devil's advocate here, but there's a qualitative difference between being open-minded and being oblivious to what's going on around you. Experience has taught me that if something looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's usually is duck.

janet dtantirojanarat

www.warriorwoman.org

virginia_kyu
10-15-2002, 06:55 PM
Just another part of training in the combat zone. Can't take the heat? Get out of the kitchen. But sitting up on the high-horse a judging an unknown with a twisted Puritain ethic is a far bigger problem than a nuclear gi. :do:
Sorry Mike I could not resist :) There is nothing wrong with judging, you do it, every one does it, the only difference is the issues we choose to make judgements on.