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Josh Mason
09-20-2002, 12:15 AM
My sensei was telling our beginners class about different meridians in the body that have to do with vital organs, and different pressure points that trigger those things. I was very skeptical at first, until I was called out to be Uke. Sensei demonstrated something that messed with my heart meridian. He was tapping my chin very lightly, and doing something with his hands. I could FEEL the energy being sapped out of me. All i can really remember is a rapid strike to the chin, and I was out of it. Out cold. After i came to (I don't remember anything really) He repeated the process, and i could feel that he was restoring my energy. My face was numb for the rest of the afternoon. This kind of thing seems very strange... Do most other Aikido Dojos teach pressure point tactics?

When sensei demonstrates Kotegaeshi, he'll sometimes push on a place on my arm, and my knees immediately just give out. (I'm 6'2 260lbs) I think that the Aikido we learn is a bit different from other Aikido, and being a beginner I really can't tell the differences yet.

Bronson
09-20-2002, 02:01 AM
This topic can stir up a hornets nest ;) Some people say it doesn't work some say it's the next best thing since oxygen. Our dojo does pressure points, but then again my sensei is a doctor of oriental medicine i.e. acupuncture. I've found a pretty good book for us laymen out there who want a little more info it's: Essential Anatomy for Healing and the Martial Arts by Marc Tedeschi.

We did some of it tonight as a matter of fact. We were doing what we call "third party intervention". Walking into a situation where someone else is being attacked. The pressure points weren't used to take the attacker down or out, just to break the balance to allow us to apply a technique. Although I did take a couple of good shots that dropped me ;) I've also had my leg go numb, my arm go numb, gotten the tunnel vision on the way to unconciousness, lost my grip strength, and had intense pain from pressure points.

Sensei has also told us that roughly ten percent of the popluation won't feel pain from pressure points. That doesn't include people who have desensitized them over time. The two soccer players in my class come to mind. Can't get a pressure point on their legs to work for anything. They've been kicked so often and taken so much impact abuse on there legs that the pain just doesn't register....but poke the ones behind the ears and watch 'em jump :D

Bronson

Genex
09-20-2002, 03:50 AM
Okay so i'm at my first seminar last sunday got graded etc... and one of our head sensei's is showing us a technique at the end during the application he's doing a nikkyo and i'm on my back, my hand is up by my armpit etc, at this point he takes a knuckle and *gently* i mean gently presses it against a point 2" below my armpit, I was in agony! absolute pain flowed through my chest its like my lungs were on fire! it took me a minute to compose myself, and then my Nage did the same on the other side although he presses quite hard and i almost coughed up my lung...

needless to say i want to get a book on pressure points and learn something along the lines of what they do in croutching tiger hiden dragon.

pete

Ta Kung
09-20-2002, 04:21 AM
The only pressure points I've seen work, are yonkyo and that pressure point behind ones ear... any books on the subject (or sites) would be appritiated.

Regards,

Patrik

aikido_fudoshin
09-20-2002, 08:03 AM
Right between your collar bones, or directly below the adams apple is a bit of gap. Your finger fits in there nicely. Do this and focus your power on pushing straight down. Nobody can withstand it.:)

Bruce Baker
09-20-2002, 08:13 AM
My goodness.

When I first approached the Aikiweb community with pressure points I was nearly lambasted, and put on a spit, replacing the pig in the pig roast.

But here I see posts about sensei's actually bringing pressure point studys into practice? Am I dreaming?

I am aware there are a whole host of striking points within our practice of Aikido, and if you watch carefully, you will see that even the simplest of Aikido techniques give an opportunity to us pressure points, or pain by activating nerve endings. First learn to heal before you learn to hurt. There are more than a couple of rules for the use of pressure points such as ones health, polarity of the body, and genetic structure in which you actually judge the sensitivity of what pressure points work for a particular human structure, or race.

Most Aikido techniques use two pressure points for pain, learning what meridian you are using and a third pressure point on that meridian will cause the knockout, or fainting response.

Safety dictates you always practice with a healer present, and learn the rules of safe practice, or you will find that pain and numbness go beyond a minute and may be injury.

If you are looking for sites that have more on this subject, Dim Mak sites, George Dillman's Site, and there are a number of books in acupunture/ acupressure that will reinforce your own reseach.

Unless your teacher is pursueing this area of study, you will have to pursue it on your own. At this time, it is not in the general realm of Aikido, but it should be.

SeiserL
09-20-2002, 10:55 AM
Gotta support the Dillman sites, man knows what he is doing. Less complicated than the whole Dim Mak study.

Yes, many people seem against the use of pressure points and I haven't seen it emphaized much in Aikido. IMHO, it integrates very well. We do some in Tenshinkai Aikido (Phong Sensei).

And yes, Bruce, you took a lot of heat for talking about it initially, but then again, you often take a lot of heat because you tend to want to take the lead. Don't worry about it and take it personally.

Until again,

Lynn

diesel
09-20-2002, 11:07 AM
The only pressure points I've seen work, are yonkyo and that pressure point behind ones ear... any books on the subject (or sites) would be appritiated.

Regards,

Patrik
There are 3 points on the face I can think of off hand..

1) The septum; where the base of the nose meets the lips (bad description). Taking your index finger parallel with your upper lip, push with the finger right before the nuckle at around a 45 degree angle where the cartiledge between your nostrils is. Doesn't take much pressure to bring tears to your eyes..

2) I dont know the medical name for this one.. Taking your right thumb and middle finger, start at the center of your top row of teeth at about the gum line (on your lips). Open your fingers so your right thumb is moving to the right and your middle finger is moving to your left, maintaing contact. About half way to the back of your mouth you'll feel where the bones from your skull bulge out. Your finger tips fit quite nicely in there at about a 30 degree upward angle.

3) Eye socket. Take your right thumb to the right eye. On the inside(left) towards the top of the eye socket, there is a little notch. Insert thumb, turn counter clockwise.

Weird to watch because it looks like your poking there eye out....

Try these on yourself before others ;)

Josh Mason
09-20-2002, 11:30 AM
I'm glad to hear that more Sensei are doing the pressure point thing. I like what the above guy said, "Learn to heal before you learn to hurt" My Sensei uses his skills as an accupressurist to ultimately help people.

I think that's the beauty of Aikido. Aikido is an internal art. You really have a lot of decision making and control in Aikido, whereas in other external martial arts, your only solution most times is to break the guy's face.

In Aikido you can make a choice. You can control the attacker, and resolve the situation without violence, or you could do serious harm to the attacker at your discretion. People often question the effectiveness of Aikido in real situations. I think that the introduction of pressure points in Aikido could open up a lot more options for defense. Paired with other Aikido techniques, these pressure point tactics could be very effective and devastating in a combat situation.

PhilJ
09-20-2002, 01:10 PM
Right between your collar bones, or directly below the adams apple is a bit of gap. Your finger fits in there nicely. Do this and focus your power on pushing straight down. Nobody can withstand it.:)
My instructor friend JUST did that to me last night. Makes you cough without the crush on the windpipe -- very unsettling, but effective. :)

Erik
09-20-2002, 02:49 PM
None of this will go over well with believers but here are a few links for you.

http://www.ncahf.org/pp/acu.html

http://www.skepdic.com/acupunc.html

And with that, I'm out of this hornet's nest.

Alfonso
09-20-2002, 03:10 PM
Erik are you saying that the folks who posted on this board didn't experience what they described?

Or that this is a controversial topic?

What do you think happened?

what about something like this?
http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v284n21/ffull/jci00080.html

Erik
09-20-2002, 04:09 PM
OK, I'll bite once more and be controversial.
Erik are you saying that the folks who posted on this board didn't experience what they described?

Or that this is a controversial topic?

What do you think happened?
It wouldn't surprise me a bit that something happened. The question is was it what they think happened or were told happened.

People, and I include myself in this, are horribly unreliable in terms of understanding what happened. It's why science works the way it does.
what about something like this?

http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v284n21/ffull/jci00080.html
Alfonso, that study is way out of my league (We'll have to get Peter or Colleen to look at it) but it's seemingly a step in the right direction. The little bit that I got from that study is that maybe it isn't even the needles. Maybe we should just shock people. Maybe the skin penetration causes a general healing reaction. Maybe it would have worked if the needles were not placed in proper acupuncture points (something they didn't appear to test). Maybe acupuncture actually does work but there is no such thing as chi/ki as it's practitioners claim? And, maybe one or two pressure points actually do, do something, and all the rest is pure crap. All kinds of possibilities even in that narrow study from what I read but again this is not my realm.

Alfonso
09-20-2002, 04:31 PM
:) I'm no expert either. All I meant to point out is that the matter is not closed in the medical world. I know of some doctors who give credence to the concept , and I've heard of other who don't.

personally i've neither studied pressure points nor are they emphasized in my training.

I do like to keep an open mind though.

Erik
09-20-2002, 07:14 PM
I do like to keep an open mind though.
That's a really dangerous thing. Do you regularly jump off tall buildings by any chance? Or, are you closed to that idea? If so, why?

Why is it different with acupuncture?

leefr
09-21-2002, 03:20 AM
The difference is that you can see the person going splat(unless you're in the matrix).

It's not quite so obvious with acupuncture, especially when, as in where I live, it's an accepted and respected medical profession and practice(even though we may all be wrong).

I don't think acupuncture is truly relevant to using pressure points when fighting anyway. Isn't using pressure points pretty much an empirical study? You hit somebody somewhere and they feel a helluva lot of pain - maybe from anatomical structural weaknesses, a concentration of nerve endings, damage to an important blood vessel/artery or whatever. You're not going to argue about the balancing of yin and yang when you've got to put down an opponent as quickly as you can, and you're going to use what obviously works.

Erik
09-21-2002, 12:52 PM
The difference is that you can see the person going splat(unless you're in the matrix).
Hi Frederick!

I'm going to vacate after this post but have you ever seen someone go splat? I never have. I've never even seen the remains of it. Some people, a rare few, have survived parachutes not opening and a few have survived jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge. I have seen people fall from 10 feet or so and get hurt and it certainly seems logical that the higher you go the worse it will be but I don't actually know that for absolute certain. The point I was making is that if you have a true and open mind, well, then maybe you should jump and see what happens. Or, do you look at the evidence and form a conclusion? If the latter, how come we never do that with acupuncture, or whatever?

With acupuncture, someone comes along and tells us a story and we believe. "Yea, Fred, acupuncture worked great for me." Sure, listen to Fred but Doctors and scientists? Nah, wouldn't want to listen to them even though they have information and research to work with.

So this statement is accurate:
It's not quite so obvious with acupuncture, especially when, as in where I live, it's an accepted and respected medical profession and practice(even though we may all be wrong).
Because the evidence is not obvious, we listen to implied evidence. My back felt better, he fixed my liver problem (was there even a problem there), etc. It's scary how we process information and make decisions.
I don't think acupuncture is truly relevant to using pressure points when fighting anyway. Isn't using pressure points pretty much an empirical study? You hit somebody somewhere and they feel a helluva lot of pain - maybe from anatomical structural weaknesses, a concentration of nerve endings, damage to an important blood vessel/artery or whatever. You're not going to argue about the balancing of yin and yang when you've got to put down an opponent as quickly as you can, and you're going to use what obviously works.
I agree, but much of this stuff gets sold based on knocking people out or things like the Dim Mak. Then comes the story of Chi meridians and pretty soon someone uses acupuncture as validation.

Anyways, this is a lost cause and it's time to go away.

By the way, I really recommend a book called the Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini. It talks about how people make decisions. While it's mainly directed at the sales profession, it has a lot of relevance into how people think and does a far better job of conveying what I was trying to convey.

Bruce Baker
09-21-2002, 03:55 PM
Thanks for the support, Mr. Lynn Seiser.

It was not my intention to lead anyone anywhere, but to say "... look, over there, did you see what I see?"

After our long long thread about pressure points last spring, we eventually agreed that the pain we feel in some Aikido twists, locks, and manipulations is from the nerve endings sending signals to the brain.It is what I call pressure points ... and that the extended study of pressure points does not work for the general public, but only for high level well trained martial artists with willing subjects. Then too, there is no explanation for pain knocking out people that will satisfy everyone. Hence the debate.

There are health concerns about using pressure points, because we are working with live human beings who are having the flow of their energy located in the function of their bodily organs interupted with pain.

You must learn healing, you must work carefully by practicing on only one side of the body at a time, and you must not work with the same pressures points on the same meridian day after day, but give your body two to three weeks rest on different practices. Two pressure point will cause pain, and three on the same meridian will cause a knock out. Always obey the safety concerns of knockouts, the health of your practice partners, and always have a healer present when pursueing this practice.

There is a lot more detail in pursueing this ar than saying "... here, do it like this." No more than some one could walk off the street and merge with advaned Aikido practice without any training, so too, you could not learn the application and use of pressure points without training and careful practice.

Normally you see the areas of the body that are prone to pain, and hence there too is cause to find out exactly what pressure points you have activated and why? So too, you should do the standard practice of basic Aikido that put you in the correct areas to use pressure points, but there are definitely not enough qualified teachers out there at the present time.

If you are in the Northeast of USA, there are plenty of schools that will start you on your way. Remember to tell them you do Aikido, and they will be very friendly ... not because you are a great fighter, but because Aikido contains many of the training secrets to make you a great human being who can be a great fighter if the need arose.

I am seeing teacher from almost every art, but Aikido, don't include me I am not a teacher, attend pressure point seminars. I guess we, the body of Aikido practitioners, are the quite moderate in clearing up the mystery of martial arts secrets?

That out of the way ... do your Aikido practice, study and learn the secrets of martial arts, but always remember to be a good person before you are a good fighter, and the balance will come ... eventually.

PhilJ
09-21-2002, 10:39 PM
It sounds like what the debate is about here is perception and faith.

I think you'd all agree perception is ultimately relative. "I think", "It seems", "Apparently", "I've seen/not seen" are some key words.

Faith is the same thing. We read somehting and it becomes our gospel. This can be on a website, in a book, religious text... and because we read it, it becomes fact.

Erik, the two articles you included are truly biased, which makes them suspect. Reading a psychology book and accepting at face value is no challenge, and again, there is a bias there too, being "focused" on the sales force. Likewise, "acupuncture made me feel better" falls into the identical category, right?

This is not bad, though, and I'll wrap up my contribution here with this: decisions made based on faith and/or perception are not automatically invalid, but they are not automatically valid either. Just because a well-educated author comes up with a seemingly intelligent series of statements does not make it correct or incorrect -- it's usually his/her take on things.

BTW, this applies to this very post, too (whether it is intelligent or not -- you all will decide for yourself, correct?) :)

SeiserL
09-21-2002, 11:45 PM
I was at a knife fighting seminar where they were showing joint locks and pressure points. My partners were impressed how easily I seemed to get them. The instructor (Hock Hockheim) smiled at me and asked if I stidues Aikido. I think its there where we use it or know it. My perception is that it works from personal experience with the stuff and my faith is that it will work again.

Until again,

Lynn

Bronson
09-23-2002, 01:43 AM
we will assume you and uke are close to the same size. Distances may have to be jiggled a bit if the size discrepancy is too great. Also, descriptions of how to find them are assuming you are going slowly to learn to find them. Once you know where and how to get them it happens much quicker. Also also, don't just "poke" them, extend through them.

some I like to use are:

1) take your partners same arm (right-right, left-left) and place his bent elbow in the center of your palm. Gently close your hand in a natural position. Where the tip of your thumb rests on the lower inside of the upper arm is a point (heart 3 I believe)

2) grasp inside of partners shin (cross grab) from front. Slide your hand down inside of leg until your pinky finger stops on top of the ankle bone. Extend into the shin with the third knuckle of the index finger. I think this is spleen 6.

3) on the calf muscle. in the center of the belly of the muscle where it bifurcates. Bladder 57. we have a karate practioner who comes to class who likes to hit this point with his heel as he moves past.

4) have your partner grab you with a two handed choke from the front. To learn where this point is reach out and put your fingers on his ribcage roughly halfway between his armpit and his waist. It's located in the 7th intercostal space. To make it work well "pop" the point with your thumb tips or third pinky knuckle (knife edge of hand). spleen 21

5) from behind, grab ukes head with both hands at base of neck and hook a finger into the hinge of the jaw (both sides). Through the cheek, don't go sticking your fingers in uke's mouth :D lift up and back to move uke.

6) same position as #5 but place tip of index finger at the point where the earlobe meets the jaw. have the other fingers run along the bottom of the jaw bone in a natural position for the hand. extend in, up and back to move uke.

7) uke grabs two handed choke from the front with one leg further forward. bring up your same leg (right-right) and turn your waist bringing the knee to his inner thigh just below halfway between groin and knee. It will be directly across from ukes fingertips when he's standing relaxed with hands at sides. The motion is like you're skipping "through" the point. There is also one on the outside of the thigh at the fingertip level. The points on the inside of the arms and legs tend to be more sensitive than the ones on the outside. I think these are liver 9 and gallbladder 32, respectively.

6) have uke stand with arms outstretched to the sides. At the lowest point of the lattisimus dorsi (lats, the "wings" on the back of in shape folks). extend in and foward with a thumb or finger tip.

7)on the top of your forearm, roughly two finger widths from the elbow, in the space between the muscles is a another good spot. extend into the arm with a thumb tip. In tai chi I was taught to strike this spot with either a knuckle or the pointy wrist bone at the base of the hand (pinky side). It causes a charlie-horse which opens the hand.

well, that's about all I can think of right now. try 'em, see if you like 'em. don't get discouraged if they don't work. like I said in a previous post, roughly ten percent of the population won't feel much pain from pressure points. Some other won't because they've desensitized parts of their bodies. more than likely none of these will cause somebody to "drop" but they are usefull for creating openings. Kinda like stealth atemi :D

have fun,

Bronson

any mistakes about the point names are strictly my own ;)

Bruce Baker
09-23-2002, 01:20 PM
Some of you are starting to get it.

We already have opening to use pressure points in Aikido without changing or adding movements.

They are already there. Find them. Study what is there. See where Aikido came from, and how it evolved with no loss of validity.

aikidoc
09-23-2002, 01:29 PM
I love to see my favorite topic come up again.

I would highly recommend Michael Kelly's book on the Death Touch. He places the topic in perspective from a medical science point of view. Pressure points work but not on everyone or always the same on every person.

I have submitted an article to black belt magazine on the topic and am still waiting to see if they will accept it.

Also, knocking out students in my opinion is dangerous-it causes a vaso-vagal reflex which if you have health problems could cause serious problems. Your blood pressure drops signficantly.

Dr. John Riggs

Alfonso
09-23-2002, 01:36 PM
maybe you should jump and see what happens

LOL! I did when I was 18, not on purpose thought. I fel from 100 ft. And survived with consequences..

I've been surprised many times when evidence or experience has shown me things I didn't expect or believe even.

OTOH I don't feel compelled to pursue everything I withhold a definite judgement on. And that doesn't mean I'm closed to the idea that it all is hogwash either.

In addition tot that though certain ideas I may not accept based on my judgmeent (purely personal stuff, but determinant to me) , I try to see if there are any parts of it which do, and in this way I tell my self stories of how the world works.

I hope this doesn' alarm you

aikidoc
10-02-2002, 06:37 PM
Update: It appears Black Belt Magazine has accepted my article on Aikido: striking and pressure points (atemi waza and kyusho jitsu). I still have to do the photos and some minor editing. i don't have a pub date yet.

akiy
10-03-2002, 12:36 AM
That's great -- congratulations, John! Please keep us posted on when things all come together.

-- Jun

G DiPierro
10-03-2002, 01:10 AM
The problem with using pressure points in Aikido practice is that they are very annoying for your practice partners. For this reason, I prefer to practice without them. It makes practice much more comformtable. Most of us will never use Aikido techniques off of the mat, so practicing with a form of technique that causes unnecessary pain to our partners and yet offers no practical advantage seems to me to be foolish.

Chuck.Gordon
10-03-2002, 01:38 AM
My goodness.

When I first approached the Aikiweb community with pressure points I was nearly lambasted, and put on a spit, replacing the pig in the pig roast.
You weren't lambasted for your content, Bruce, you were put "on the spit" for your approach, for being condescending, damn-near rude, etc etc etc. And what you put out, you got back.

Your approach, by the way, seems to have mellowed considerably. Thank you. You have some intersting things to say, no question. And as long as you are willing to discuss and not lecture, people will talk with you.

To the subject matter: Pressure points CAN work, but evidence doesn't support them working the way some folks would like for us to believe.

Bruce will point to the Dillman method and its adherents as supporting evidence. For myself, I've explored the concetps and practices of 'tuite' and some of the other methods of pressure point manipulation (including dipping into the Chinese disciplines) and my wife is a student of massage therapy, holding rank in reiki and having done studies with folks who are deeply invested in the PP (for health care) arena.

My conclusions after nearly 30 years on the mat (27, I think, catually), are that:

a: If you believe they work on YOU, they will.

b: if the humanbody is struck hard enough almost anywhere, you can achieve similar results.

c: relying on PP methodology in terms of self defense is at best, dangerous, at worst, suicidal.

d: PP methodology doesn't work on '10 percent', right off the bat (I suspect that figure is MUCH higher), add to that the folks who are desensitized through trauma (banging shins, forearms, hard labor, etc); the folks who are drinking, taking recreational chemicals or other reality-altering substances; the folks who are mentally off-kilter enough that the pain doesn't get throuhg or is mis-routed (through psychological or physical problems); and add to that the folks for whom pain is just a thing and doesn't really matter anyhow.

e: the 'ki' theory ... hell, we can't even define ki.

Chuck

PS: Hang in there, Bruce. Even _I_, yes, me, have found myself nodding at a few of your posts. Say what you have to say, but make sure you're respectful and folks will respond in kind. I've noted that in your discourse lately and hope to see it continue.

Bruce Baker
10-03-2002, 10:05 AM
Thanks Mr. Gordon, but being too respectfull takes all fun out of being a gorilla, doesn't it?

No, really ... unlike many you who have been inciteful, polite, and respectful, my disrepect should be taken with a grain of salt that you might reexamine your own position. Although much of it was a reflection of the physical pain of trying to get a handle on what needed to be fixed in my body.

(Which has been diagnosed as Meniere's, sleep aphnia, and fatty liver syndrome which is not a disease but doesn't allow enough blood to circulate through the body causing even more dizzyness and tiredness. So, as much as I owe many an apology for the terseness of my writing, please understand the underlying causes of words reflecting physical turmoil too. Thanks.)

Hopefully, you will learn to laugh at yourself for being insulted with the insight that offenseness needs the correction of different people who are offended to laugh and say," Please don't do that it isn't nice." A simple truth, but as we grow older the mask of suttleness hides our true feelings. In the same vein, we also learn to reflect on what other people think, and their point of view.

Just shake your head and laugh if something I say bothers you ... you would do that anyway if we were talking face to face?

About the pressure point thing ... If you take the time to scrutinize and detail the techniques we use in Aikido, there are many many variations of the lesser pain we cpi;d ise om practice. What we do that is validated by taking the slack out of techniques to the point of pain, using the pressure points which are essentially nerve endings transfering pain, and we find validation of Aikido by the demonstrations of the pressure point practitioners. They, the pressure point practitioners, mimic many of the movements we do in Aikido without even knowing or having practiced Aikido. It made my jaw drop to see demonstration after demonstration nearly doing Aikido while they thought they were doing pressure point karate? Go figure?

So, no matter if you think in the narrow box of physical manipulation which brings about pain to pressure points/ nerve endings, or you see the deeper meaning of learning meridians of the bodys functions so that you have a clue to what next level of training is above physical training, you are training to act and react to not only touch but alleviate the chance of pain or injury.

Just laugh with me if you disagres, but please do not take offense.

The only other thing that comes to mind is that perhaps in our passion to communicate we have said too much, too soon, too honestly.

Oh, Well. Time heals all wounds, and wounds all heels.

(It took how long time for people to figure out the world was round and a finite place where it went around the sun and not the other way around? It should take no less time to adapt to learning pressure points in Aikido.)

bob_stra
10-09-2002, 03:17 AM
As someone who makes a living thru "pressure points" (massage therapy and now chiropractic) I have to say... dunno.

Certainly, there are places on the body that are... annoying... to press on. Medial condyle of the humerus (funny bone pain). Sternum rub. Orbital ridges. Septum. Solar plexus. Lunar plexus. Yeah, they all hurt - some because they are sites of major nerve bundles, others due to dermatomal / myotomal referal etc.

Still, in all my time, I've yet to see / experience anyone becoming incapacitated from a light touch.

Sure, certain *weird* things can happen in craniosacral work, or myofascial, trager etc, but never witnessed a K.O.

My p.o.v = Pressure points hurt (sometimes a lot) and perhaps assist in the taking of balance (eg: a good upper cut to the jaw before taiotoshi works wonders ;-), but unconciousness... ? I'd love to see / experience it.

Bruce Baker
10-09-2002, 01:12 PM
Remember, three points on the same meridian.

The only problem with the three is that some nerves are activated by pressure, some rub, and some by strike.

I know Aikido will have to get into pressure points if it wants to find the full depth of its techniques.

I take my little hand full of snow and roll it down the hill. Will it grow?

SeiserL
10-09-2002, 01:17 PM
I take my little hand full of snow and roll it down the hill. Will it grow?
Exposed to the light of day, alas, it will melt.

Until again,

Lynn

Chuck.Gordon
10-09-2002, 04:10 PM
Remember, three points on the same meridian.
Last time someone did this to me, I giggled. It tickled. Then I smacked him, because he left an opening a yard wide.

Sigh.

This is effective only inasmuch as

A: the receiver believes it will work.

B: The deliverer believes it will work.

C: Both parties mutually agree upon A and B.

Much better to learn the basics, practice the basics, repeat. ALL the secrets lie in the basics.

Sufficient force delivered to any part of the bory will result in the same conclusion.

Dim Mak is a legend, a myth. Pressure oint knockouts are similar.

Your truth is my question, my truth is your amusement.

Good on ya, bob_stra ...

Bruce, I hope you keep doing you research on Meniere's. I've got mine under control and ive a fairly normal life. I ain't much younger than you, bro'. It's something that CAN be dealt with.
(It took how long time for people to figure out the world was round and a finite place where it went around the sun and not the other way around? It should take no less time to adapt to learning pressure points in Aikido.)
Not long. Folks knew the world was round way before Columbus had his little fling with fame and that this was not a terra-centric universe long before Galileo was castigated.

Aikido does nae NEED an infuson of tuite, it's fairly well situated all by itself.

There's a lot in aikido that could be better, and a lot that could be repaired, here and there, but by and large, it's far more functional and healthy that some of the pay-for-play stuff that's floating around.

The Okinawans had no great secrets. No more than the Japanese or Chinese. They had some interesting shit, as do all of the various disciplines.

It's not panacea. Most of the Okinawan martial mythology, is, alas, quite skewed, compared to some of the other arts.

And the stuff we get treated to in the US is much more so, I fear.

There are wonderful things hidden in the Japanese budo all by themselves, if you care to look, train, seek and learn -- rather than continuing to try to overlay another discpline. Empty your cup, brudda. Empty your cup.

Chuck

Dangus
10-09-2002, 09:24 PM
It's obvious there is SOMETHING to pressure points, but I think that just like with chiropractic medicine, it's got a lot of BS in it too. I saw a woman in China on TV being operated on, with her skull literally being sawed open, and her only pain control was electro-accupuncture. That's either amazing power of suggestion, or significant medical technology. I disagree with the thinking behind one of those links someone posted earlier in this thread. They make the assumption that because there are no major organs associated with those points, that the points are not real. This is a mistake in thinking, as it is based on nerves, not on organs. Also, they take an aggressive "it's not true" stance right from the start. I have some doubts about their bias levels.

That said, I think most accupuncture is a joke. It may have some benefits, but it's only so useful. Chiropractors will tell you that their services can cure everything from allergies to poor eyesight, and you find a lot of that same kind of medicine show mentality in accupuncture. Pressure points are real, they do respond to stimulus, but that does not mean they can make you fall over and pass out from a light touch. The power of suggestion is amazingly powerful. Nowhere will you see this more strongly proven than in the world of hifi audio, where guys will pay 4500 dollars a meter for audio cable that is really not any better than stuff that costs 1 dollar a meter. Even if you take them in a shop and compare the two cables side by side, they'll usually choose the more expensive one as the better cable, because they pick up all the little suggestions, they see the fancier look of the pricey cable, they see the subtle expressions on the face of the salesperson. It's very easy to be manipulated like that if you're not more careful...

Dangus
10-09-2002, 09:26 PM
On a side note, in my study of kung-fu, I have practiced many moves where you dig in your fingers as you grasp an opponent, and you'd be amazed at how crippling that subtle movement can be. It really accompanies other actions very well, especially for the delivery of pain, but by itself, I've never seen it actually work.

PhilJ
10-10-2002, 12:06 AM
There's a lot of talk about "crippling" and "full depth of techniques." When did aikido become a self-defense/jutsu art? ;)

PeterR
10-10-2002, 01:43 AM
It always has been. At its core it is Budo. Remove the martial and you no longer have Aikido.
There's a lot of talk about "crippling" and "full depth of techniques." When did aikido become a self-defense/jutsu art? ;)

Abasan
10-10-2002, 05:07 AM
Dangus,

I think the cables are different if probably not justified in terms of pricing. I'm no electrical engineer, but depending on the material, size, length and all that, you get different resistance and leakages in the cables. The cheap ones gets interference and leakages a lot.

But yeah, maybe the difference is hard to percieve.

justinm
10-10-2002, 08:52 AM
However much I like the idea of the master that knocks out an attacker with a light touch, I just can't get past the point where I think of contact sports (football, rugby, pubs on a Saturday night) and wonder why people are not fall down all over the ground as these points get hit by mistake.

Justin

Fiona D
10-10-2002, 09:19 AM
I haven't encountered much in the way of pressure-point work in Aikido (though that's probably because I've only been training for a couple of months), but I've often found them to be very useful in my Jiu Jitsu training. Not the legendary 'he touched a certain point and I nearly passed out' type, but all those useful little nerve bundles which can be remarkably painful when pressed/squeezed/struck. We tend to use them in much the same way as we use atemi - to distract the uke from the wristlock/armlock/throw, or to loosen them up a bit if they're resisting. Most of the time it works very nicely - the person's instinctive reaction to flinch away from a sudden (though non-debilitating) source of sharp pain is great to give nage that little added edge in distraction or balance-taking. Having said that, it's certainly not a good idea to rely on these little tricks, as there are always some people on whom they just don't work. One of my training partners in Jiu Jitsu is one such - I can try all the points in his neck where the nerve bundles ought to be (including that nifty one in the hollow of the throat that works on almost anyone) and, if I'm lucky, he'll just stand there and shrug his shoulders at me.....

Bruce Baker
10-10-2002, 09:24 AM
Well, diggin fingers in at certain joints is the difficult way to create pain, but it does validate the Chin'na joint and bone grasps that create pain, and is another version of creating the same pain with joint locks or twists ... pressure points? Yep.

Chuck Gordon ... you really need, an I mean really need to go to a pressure point seminar where you can try to debunk what you will see.

The simple truth of our Aikido practice validates the difference in proper use of Aikido techniques that will cause pain and injury if your opponent or partner does not go along with movements.

For many, many years, Wally Jay jujitsu used many pain applications that we talk about as tender spots to break balance or concentration. Is it ignorance or merely laziness to not search for the understanding as to how and why these pains points work or don't work in what we call application of technique?

This is not a moot conversation of I believe or don't believe, these are proven scientific facts that can be duplicated again, and again,and again, and again infinitum.

I still have a couple of books for you Mr. Gordon, and permission to send you parts of my pressure point videos, unless you would prefer one of your own? There is nothing so satisfying as enlightening those who debunk the scientific fact by using myth, legend, and improper use of pressure points much as people mistake any one type of medicine can cure all ills?

This questioning of Acupuncture verses western medicine, well let's be practical in the application. Eastern acupuncture relieves pain with needles to points on bodys nervous system, and diet, which if you look deeper into diet, it applies the natural chemicals of food and herbs verses the western treatment of chemicals to relieve pain, and restrictions of foods not good for particular conditions of illness.

No, there are very simular methods between the two, and as time goes on, there is also an understanding that the each has it benefits in the wonderful world of medicine. So, please stop trying to give either treatment approval or disapproval, other wise selling shoe inserts to help your back, or treating symptoms of an illness while the cause is either germs or viral would kill billions of dollars of treatments around the world.

Use your common sense, get the facts, or at least the right reference book to find the answers, and just as we talk about pressure points being myths or legends, so too, we should have the proper instruction to apply these points in the same manner as we accredit scientific cures for our common ills.

I know I can't remember it all, but with a few general rules, practice, and a little study now and then, it will be as easy as remembering the basics of Aikido?

My tempering of writing also has to do with relief of pain that western medicine prescribed as increasing dosages of drugs ... funny how high doses of drugs under a doctors care can make you cantankerous?

I wish I had someone who was more knowledgeable about balancing western and eastern medicine with diet and exercise ... it might have save me from yanking the chain of those happy with the status quo of physical practice without searching deeper for meaning in aikido? Sorry about that.

Chuck.Gordon
10-10-2002, 10:13 AM
Chuck Gordon ... you really need, an I mean really need to go to a pressure point seminar where you can try to debunk what you will see.

.

.

.

I still have a couple of books for you Mr. Gordon, and permission to send you parts of my pressure point videos, unless you would prefer one of your own?
Been there, done that Bruce. I explored that avenue back in the early 80s when folks were first 'discovering' it. Trained with folks from Oyata's lineage, way back then.

Found it wanting then, and still do. I DO find more than enough material within the Japanese construct to keep me busy without having to hare around after other disciplines to "complete" what I'm doing. It's all there, already.

I don't need the books (may already have read them), don't need the videos, either, but thank you kindly for the offer.

Glad you're feeling, better, too. Hope it continues.

Chuck

bob_stra
10-10-2002, 10:44 AM
"Dangus McFinghin (Dangus)"]It's obvious there is SOMETHING to pressure points, but I think that just like with chiropractic medicine, it's got a lot of BS in it too. I saw a woman in China on TV being operated on, with her skull literally being sawed open, and her only pain control was electro-accupuncture.

Yeah, I read abt that one someplace (?quackwatch?). The official line is that the folks were anesthetized as well as "accupunctured"

Having said that, the prospect that accupuncture could cause anesthetiza is biologically plausible, but not by the standard TCM explanations AFAIK.

This is infact the crux of the argument. If phenomenon exits and a person devlops a faulty model for that phenomenon, then any thinking based on that model is likely to be faulty too.

(notice I didn't say useless)

That's either amazing power of suggestion, or significant medical technology.



Someone mentioned Cialdini. Everyone should read that book - *mere* power of suggestion can achieve phenomenal results.

PS: I always think of aikido and judo as "slight of body" - using the power of suggestion to lead folks into "traps"

PPS: Animals, when frigtened or under the right conditions, tend to undergo catalepsy. I remember this as an explanation as to why kittens could be lifted by the scruff of their neck and not complain. It also one of the reasons why animal models are considered poor for the research of accupuncture.

Could human experience catalepsy in a similar fashion. Dunno, maybe ;-)



Not at all. The TCM model is... fanciful (notice I didn't say useless). There are better explanations to what happening than too much Yin energy at GB 25 etc.

[QUOTE= Also, they take an aggressive "it's not true" stance right from the start. I have some doubts about their bias levels.

Don't confuse a cynic ("no, I'm right, you're all wrong. Go away - I'm not listening LA LA LA LA" )

with a skeptic ("hey, maybe you're right!! Let's find out")

Sometimes a cynic likes to pretend to be a skeptic, by giving all sorts of scientfic explanations. In the end the difference always stands out.

Question - is there sufficient, quality evidence to support pressure point knockouts? Is the explanation biologically and philosophically plausible ?



I don't know. Maybe.

[QUOTE= Chiropractors will tell you that their services can cure everything from allergies to poor eyesight



In defence of chiropractic, there is now evidence that spinal adjustments effect the immune system. I can dig out the references if needs been and provide a reasonable model as to why.

As for eyesight...

I don't know. Maybe ;-)

(The body's kind wierd, huh?)




Yeah, historically one of the big problems of CAM / alt health. Don't *even* get me started...

[QUOTE=but that does not mean they can make you fall over and pass out from a light touch.


I don't know. Maybe ;-)

Listen, if anyone can tell me which accupuncture points to stimulate, I'd be happy to "knock myself out", for the sake of science and all :-)

(I spent 3 months learning shiatsu and have rudimentary knowledge of meridians et al)

At the end of the day, if PP knockout exist / work, It would be waaaay cool ;-) Another coat of paint on the wonder that is life. But frankly, I think there's plenty of way cool stuff in aikido already.

Final paraphrase mr sonnon - "To understand life change the prefix. Don't focus on the extraordinary and supernatural - rather, the superORDINARY and EXTRAnatural"

/steps off soapbox [QUOTE]

bob_stra
10-10-2002, 11:01 AM
Wow I rule using the /quote command. :freaky: Hope that last message makes sense

Bruce Baker
10-14-2002, 01:59 PM
I don't blame anyone who has had the seventies and eighties experience of pressure points as having a sour taste, until the late 1990s I had yet to see and experience a demonstration of pressure points that were explained to the point they were scientifically applied to be used in any martial art. In fact, I do have a very high tolerance to pain where hair can be ripped off my skin and open wounds are ignored until my task is completed, but really, Chuck Gordon, get in touch with Leon Jay in the U.K.

If he is doing a seminar in your area, go. There are two very good teachers besides George Dillman here who travel abroad to Sweeden and Europe, Evan Pantazi, and Mark Kline. If they are giving a seminar in Europe, go.

Been there done that only works for things that do not work, or instructors who don't know how to make them work ... they teach you the pieces without the knowledge.

I find that the liver syndrome is the catalyst to sending my condition into outer space, but that is getting better too. Thanks for your concern, and I pray you never get as sick as I have been. It really makes any type of Aikido training ... not fun.

The best part of practice is having fun rocking and rolling, throwing and being thrown, isn't it?

Really, the new pressure point studies is absolutely in line with Traditional Chinese Medicine, Acupuncture, and reveals many of the old martial arts secrets.

Check it out.

Dangus
10-15-2002, 03:18 AM
Dangus,

I think the cables are different if probably not justified in terms of pricing. I'm no electrical engineer, but depending on the material, size, length and all that, you get different resistance and leakages in the cables. The cheap ones gets interference and leakages a lot.

But yeah, maybe the difference is hard to percieve
Difference or no difference is a debate that could flare up into a multipage argument. I build speakers for a living, and have never been able to record or witness an audible difference. As mentioned in this thread, the power of suggestion is extreme. There is no such thing as cable leakages, it's not like a water pipe. You do get some dispersion as heat, but on a copper cable of at least 16 gauge or thicker, it's so minimal as to make such a small impact on the sound that it's not even audible. A person cannot hear finer than a 0.3dB cut, and most people can't even hear that. I've never measured a cut that high between expensive and cheap cables. Properly conducted double blind tests show no difference. The power of suggestion is a mighty foe to overcome.
In defence of chiropractic, there is now evidence that spinal adjustments effect the immune system. I can dig out the references if needs been and provide a reasonable model as to why
I do believe that the balance of the body has a huge effect on health as a whole, it effects your ability to breathe properly more than anything. I absolutely do not believe that it "causes" allergies. Agravates them? Probably, but causes them? Nonsense.

Chiropractic colleges indoctrinate these people to the belief that the back is the source of all good and evil in the universe, and that's silly.

That said, the chiropractor is one of the few people in life that I actually feel good about giving my money to. He does help things, but it's not going to change my life completely. If I were a hunchback maybe...

aikidoc
10-16-2002, 01:21 PM
Michael Kelly's book on the Death Touch takes the mysticism out of the pressure points.

Not all chiropractors believe that the spine controls everything. There are some of us that are rational on the topic and realize the limitations of the profession.

Dangus
10-16-2002, 04:37 PM
Of course there are, and I do indeed go to a chirpractor. Sorry to make it sound like they are ALL nuts. Not the case by any means.