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Paula Lydon
09-11-2002, 09:32 AM
~~Irimi nage, pie-in-the-face or clothesline? And everything in between...What do you pursue? And does your irimi nage change with your mood, expierence level, etc? :p

Steve Patterson
09-11-2002, 11:23 AM
I see the traditional technique (test requirment) as an ascending spiral. As to the mood, if I really feel it the intial cutting down will be very deep. Now the other applications basically like walking into a wall, its a full body experience. :)

Deb Fisher
09-11-2002, 12:55 PM
Oooh, I worry about irimi nage. I prefer pie in the face, but you know I am short-ish and pie in the face often becomes clothesline because I can't find (reach?) the face. Neither way quite feels comfortable to a novice like myself - I know this isn't true but I often feel like I'm hurting people or violating their space - it's an invasive thing to do.

You read my mind, Paula. Last night was all about irimi nage and so today I ruminate.

tedehara
09-11-2002, 03:10 PM
Irimi nage (figure 8 throw) seems to me, as one technique that truly reflects the development in aikido. From it's bone-crushing start as an aiki-jitsu technique to the hard-to-uke, walk-the-dog type throw, to the circular, leading throw that is common today.

This technique is still evolving. I recently saw a new Ki Society variation that used a sophisticated point-visualization method that almost immediately throws the uke, much like the original aiki-jutsu technique.

I think you should practice all the variations of irimi nage, except the original aiki-jitsu one. It's like eating dinner. You should eat the vegetables as well as the meat and potatoes.

BTW, if you clotheline a person on the end of the technique, they might react correctly and reverse the technique by throwing you in a judo shoulder throw from your forward arm. The idea is to throw their body, not take off their head. ;)

rachmass
09-11-2002, 03:16 PM
I love irimi nage! It has got to be my all-time favorite technique!!!!

I favor the roller coaster approach to this technique. Oddly it has been my favorite since I started aikido, and it has evolved (and will continue to do so) from a clothes line, flatting out in mid air, to a real roller coaster ride. BTW, I love the ukemi just as much as being nage, but admitedly have a harder time with the ukemi side (a bit wide in the butt, sometimes get behind in the ukemi).

:eek:

Rachel

Genex
09-12-2002, 05:19 AM
tedehara wrote:
Irimi nage (figure 8 throw)

I thought Irimi nage was 'Entering throw'

Besides my traditional Iriminage is TERRIBLE!!!

i've got my 6th Kyu this sunday and I NEED HELP!

i can start fine aihanmi, Gyakuhanmi and step in and take the back of the head. then i loose it, either on my Tenkan or i just dont pull in enough.

I find that if i lead them down with their arm and hold on the the neck properly i get them close and down low, then i loose my tenkan.

If i tenkan properly i dont lead enough and endup clothesline which is bad, i have managed to pull some off but not many.

My best one is (when taking a punch or aihanmi ) lead down/out with the hand and elbow to the face, arm extends under uke's chin and tenkan, you flatten them straight away.

so i can do this one but not the original HELP!!!!

yoroshiku

pete

tedehara
09-12-2002, 09:53 AM
I thought Irimi nage was 'Entering throw'...You're right. Irimi nage means entering throw. Because it could stand for a multitude of throws, I added (figure 8) to identify it. It is also known as the twenty year technique, not because it will take you twenty years to learn it, as some folks believe. It took the founder about twenty years to develop it from its original aiki-jitsu form.

If you have Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere, this is listed as projection 1 on pg 224 as kokyu nage. I have the old hardback edition, the page number may change in the paperback version.

Chuck Clark
09-12-2002, 10:34 AM
It seems to me that ALL aikido techniques are some sort of "Iriminage". The very act of blending always contains "entering".

While I'm at it, all techniques that are done well could be called kokyunage.

Peter Goldsbury
09-13-2002, 05:39 AM
And do not forget that the Founder did not actually name the techniques he developed, apart from ikkajo, nikajo, sankajo etc.

As for 'pie in the face' or 'clothesline', are these metaphors for good techniques, or techniques done badly? In any case, there are many more possibilities than these two.

I agree with Chuck Clark that the foundation of virtually all aikido techniques is irimi, which is a state of mind, as much as a physical movement. How much of a figure 8 you do depends to a large extent on your partner.

And Mr Lovatt, I think you will do just fine in your test. I am sure the examiner(s) will discern your intentions, even if you do not carry them out exactly. If I may give you a little advice: do not do the tenkan until you have unbalanced your uke sufficiently to make it effective.

Best regards,

Genex
09-13-2002, 06:55 AM
Pete, thanx for the advice, yes last night i was going through Iriminage with my sensei and where i used to grab the back of the neck, now i 'cut' in towards my bod on their neck/shoulder (where it joins) thus putting them well off balance and its sooo much easier to tenkan then point my finger at the ceiling and their on the floor.

in truth theory sounds better then practice but i'm deffinatly getting there.

As for metaphor's for bad techniques i'd say that 'pie in the face' is a good one for Tenchi nage (if you miss the neck and go for the face) A bad koshi nage could be a 'Piggy back' and a really bad Sankyo easily looks like morris dancing (stupid english thing with bells n sticks)

dont ask...
Btw whats with the Mr Lovatt ? Pete, will do fine i'm not an old man ya know ;)

yoroshiku

pete

Jim ashby
09-13-2002, 08:16 AM
Hi Pete. I think the end of a good Irimi nage is like the HGTTG description of the Vogon ships "they hang in the air in exactly the same that way bricks don't".

Have fun.

Peter Goldsbury
09-13-2002, 08:18 AM
Pete, thanx for the advice, yes last night i was going through Iriminage with my sensei and where i used to grab the back of the neck, now i 'cut' in towards my bod on their neck/shoulder (where it joins) thus putting them well off balance and its sooo much easier to tenkan then point my finger at the ceiling and their on the floor.

in truth theory sounds better then practice but i'm deffinatly getting there.

As for metaphor's for bad techniques i'd say that 'pie in the face' is a good one for Tenchi nage (if you miss the neck and go for the face) A bad koshi nage could be a 'Piggy back' and a really bad Sankyo easily looks like morris dancing (stupid english thing with bells n sticks)

dont ask...

Btw whats with the Mr Lovatt ? Pete, will do fine i'm not an old man ya know ;)

yoroshiku

pete
Hello Pete,

Thank you for the quick reply.

(1) Actually, I think that Paula suggested the names as variations of good technique.

(2) As well as not doing tenkan too early, keep you armpits closed, as you do tenkan. Have the feeling of pushing your partner's back with your elbow.

(3) Who is your sensei, by the way? I am English and trained for 10 years in England before coming to Japan, so I might know him/her.

(4) Don't be too anxious about your test (of course, it's easy for me to tell you this). Personally, if I were your examiner, I would give you 5th kyu anyway, for your enthusiasm about aikido (though you should get the techniques right). Is 5th kyu your first test, by the way?

(5) Finally, and this is very personal, PLEASE do not call me Pete. You and I have the same name and my classmates at school used to shorten my name Have you ever been called 'Ter', for example? My nickname at school was 'Terter'. My mother used to go wild when schoolfriends came to my house asking for "Pete" or "Terter". 'Peter' is my preference.

Actually, this bulletin board is read by people all over the world and so how we use names is very important. I think this bulletin board is both different and similar to a dojo. It is similar in that the way we communicate with each other reflects the way we practise in our own dojos: we should treat other with utmost respect. It is different because we do not see each other face to face, and so we can argue and even fight each other without having to consider the possibilities of a face-to-face meeting. Though I think we should always think about this aspect.

Anyway, I called you Mr Lovatt because I do not know you, and I think using the surname indicates a level of respect. Here in Japan, I would never use a first name, even with my own students.

But this is all serious. You have a test on Sunday and we all want you to pass. If you have any further questions about techniques etc, please ask.

Best wishes

Genex
09-13-2002, 08:38 AM
(5) Finally, and this is very personal, PLEASE do not call me Pete. You and I have the same name and my classmates at school used to shorten my name Have you ever been called 'Ter', for example? My nickname at school was 'Terter'. My mother used to go wild when schoolfriends came to my house asking for "Pete" or "Terter". 'Peter' is my preference.
Peter, Terrably sorry i didnt realise you prefered 'peter' i sometomes take it for granted that peters prefer 'pete' (there are a lot of us)

Must admit i never really had my name shortened in school, lengthened yes, to the quite horrific:

(oh goddess)

'Peter Peter wheaterbix'

I cannot beleive i just told EVERYONE on the forums that...

still gotta laugh eh? *sob, sob*

I train under sensei John Heywood, he's from Hyde in manchester, pops over to warrington for our class. (has two) You might know Sensei Barry Chapman or Chris Norburn of the Seishin kai school here in the north west?

Yoroshiku,

pete

Bruce Baker
09-13-2002, 09:28 AM
Aside from the formality of using proper names, as most of us have only met online, with mister, miss, Ms, or in the informal family term of us all being Aunts, or Uncles, I would think that the formality of proper names be observed as a matter of decorum.

As for Irimi ... from the lay your head on my should and I will lay you down with irimi, to the not so pretty jujitsu movement of trapping the leg and pushing on the opposite shoulder in a downward spiral motion, irimi does have quite a few legal and lethal variations.

If you always remember to use the figure eight motion of letting energy dissappate before you blend and send it back with your own energy, even a sloppy iriminage is valid.

Some teachers seem to throw in a straight line, but this is not so. There is always a circular motion and a downward spiral. Whether they are accentuating a hand movement, or particular body movement in their application, there is always a circular movement and downward spiral.

Notice that the pie face or the tree branch to the neck is clothes line fashion is designed to activate pain points on the body. Because of Aikido's effecient movements the actual movement of the body can overcome the opponents movement as we blend with the disappated energy, but even a sloppy throw can be devastating with the energy released.

If you were not so kind in practice, you would notice collar bone strikes, atemi to the face , and atemin to the neck, or even the availability of hip throws from irimi variations. I do remember reading Saotome sensei writing in his book a conversation he had with O'Sensei. Something to the effect that Aikido begins with irimi and ends with irimi. Which I guess means, when you have learned the lessons of irimi the rest of Aikido will become clearer to understand and easier to learn.

So, do pay attention to what your teacher wants you to do for your tests, but be aware of so much more being available off the simple technique of iriminage.

Take the time to learn to feel the energy, where it is going, how to let it disappate, how to become strong in stance with rooting, and when to blend to send back the energy.

After these things, the variations will become easy.