Lost in Aikido

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[Trolloc63]

My apologies for the length, but I have some concerns. The short version is: Live in Nebraska and there are 3 Aikido dojos near me, all are traditional. I have tried all 3 of them and am somewhat disheartened by them. I do enjoy the Aikido; however, I find the traditional version to be very unrealistic in a fight. I’m having a hard time “suspending reality” while trying to learn Aikido. Coming off a Gracie Combatives BJJ/Krav Maga background, it’s very hard see the effectiveness of the traditional Aikido side.

I just don’t see the utility in today’s types of fight situations. Now all Aikido is not useless. I see a great deal of utility from “before the fight” situations like grabs, shoves, and that sort of thing. But it seems less effective with let’s say wild street punches and boxing like punches. And of course, we cannot forget take downs such as tackles or clinches.

I guess what I’m getting to, is I would like to get my black belt in the traditional Aikido and possibly look at other styles within Aikido to satisfy my “street” experience. I want Aikido to be practical and work on the street. And I guess I’m wondering whether that is even possible?
I have looked at a few dojos around the US that offer the Tenshin style like Lenny Sly and a few others. Iwama is another one. They seem to be very practical. What are your thoughts on this process of mine? Anyone else struggle with this issue?

[Janet Rosen]

Aikido training you see is basically giving you building blocks for a language. Now, this may not be an approach that works for you, and that's fine. But that's the perspective I'll ask you to look at it through:

The prearranged attack-response are basically a kata to build in muscle memory akin to learning phonemes, then over time being able to put together sentences, and eventually a coherent narrative. At highest level, improvised poetry.

At the same time the building blocks of learning movements are being drilled, there should be an emphasis on executing them with good structure and letting excess tension go. Different dojo will address this at different stages of training. It's totally variable, even within associations: Some will never go past drilling people in sentences so understanding remains rudimentary, some think they are teaching poetry but lack structure or martial effectiveness.

[Trolloc63]

I get the gist of what you are trying to tell me. We start with the foundation and work our way up, just like math per se. But this really doesn't answer the question. How can we cultivate this foundation into a street atmosphere? Does this require the right kind of style? Or perhaps different backgrounds in martial arts? Is it even possible to make Aikido more martial?

[Avery Jenkins]

I think you probably need to get way better at aikido before you try to "cultivate this foundation in a street atmosphere." As Janet pointed out, you are just learning to spell "the." No way in hell that you're going to be able to write War and Peace with your knowledge base.

For the record, I've used aikido in, err, non-dojo applications. Works fine for me. YMMV. It takes years to get remotely good enough. You may not have the patience, but if you do. the rewards will be worth it.

[Avery Jenkins]

I also have to chuckle when people comment that aikido "isn't martial." I think about classes where you have some guy with a 4-foot solid oak stick or a practice sword made of hickory taking whacks at you. Or someone grabs you around the throat with a knife in his hand. I dunno, that seems pretty martial to me.

[Peter Goldsbury]

Hello,

You are not the first to have asked these questions and I am sure will not be the last. Generally, they cause people to panic a bit and rush to the defence of aikido as an art that is as fully martial as all the rest. The argument then goes that the martial aspects are more hidden than other aspects, the 'spiritual' aspects, for example, and so it takes longer to find them.

Well, I never understood aikido to be a 'spiritual' martial art and over the years I have found my understanding to be correct. When I started, my teacher always emphasized that it had to work - and by this he meant that in an encounter, like a fight, it had to be effective. So we did lots of free sparring and loads of weapons training. We gradually worked the waza (the techniques) into the training.

All my teachers have been Japanese and after my first teacher returned to Japan, I had to find another. I lived in central London and trained in a famous judo dojo. On my way to training sessions I passed posters depicting a mean looking Japanese, dressed in black and holding a sword. His name was Chiba. I took a few classes and in particular I looked at how dojo members attacked him: they were all tough yudansha, but never stood a chance after the initial moves.

Then I moved to the States and trained at the main dojo in Cambridge, Mass. The Japanese instructor was an old school friend of Chiba and had started aikido at Chiba's urging. I lived near Harvard Square and used to walk home after training. We had been warned to be careful, for there had been a spate of murders and the culprits came from a tough suburb named Roxbury. I asked one of the senior yudansha, Fred W., who came from New York and had done street fighting as a kind of hobby. His injuries meant that he could be extremely upset if you attacked him in a certain way - and he would always compensate. He answered that I was unlikely to be attacked, since I was young and athletic and also carried my training gear over my shoulder. They would assume that I did karate - which was fine.

BUT, there is always a first time and past practice is never a 100% reliable guide to what might happen.

My apologies for the length, but I have some concerns. The short version is: Live in Nebraska and there are 3 Aikido dojos near me, all are traditional. I have tried all 3 of them and am somewhat disheartened by them. I do enjoy the Aikido; however, I find the traditional version to be very unrealistic in a fight. I'm having a hard time "suspending reality" while trying to learn Aikido. Coming off a Gracie Combatives BJJ/Krav Maga background, it's very hard see the effectiveness of the traditional Aikido side.

PAG. Since Chiba moved to the US, I assume he has students who are still active. In my opinion, it is totally unrealistic to have to "suspend reality" while learning aikido, so if your teacher cannot take account of what you have been doing up to now, find a new teacher, or learn a different martial art. I lived in the US in the mid-70s, so I have no idea about what training is like now. However, there are some names that stand out for me: Bruce Bookman, George Ledyard, Haruo Matsuoka. There is also one other person you need to meet and train with and his name is Dan Harden. Others can tell you more about him than I can but what I have heard about him is a good recommendation.

However, it seems to me that you need to base your aikido training on the "reality" that you are used to; otherwise you will never be satisfied. So, why do you want to move from Gracie Combatives etc to aikido?

I just don't see the utility in today's types of fight situations. Now all Aikido is not useless. I see a great deal of utility from "before the fight" situations like grabs, shoves, and that sort of thing. But it seems less effective with let's say wild street punches and boxing like punches. And of course, we cannot forget take downs such as tackles or clinches.

PAG. I have been living in Japan for the past few decades and so I am unaware of "today's types of fight situations" as you put it. Have they changed from what I was used to when I lived in the States? Then it was basically fists, feet or weapons, all used with varying degrees of skill or ingenuity. Chiba S once advised me to be very, very careful of knife attacks. He went out of his way to tell me this, so I concluded that he was singling out something unusual or important in his own training experience.

Here in Japan, the police take an extremely dim view of attacks with weapons, but, on the other hand, we do not train aikido here as a spiritual art. In fact, aikido is taught to the police here, but the aikido they do is Yoshinkan, not Aikikai - and I think this is for historical reasons to do with how aikido began in Hiroshima. The dojo I run is attached to the Aikikai, bit is independent. It is really a family dojo, with an age range from the mid-70s, down to elementary school kids. I took over the dojo a few years ago, and my main contribution has been to teach weapons as they train in Iwama, which is the base that Chiba S used.

But I can tell you that a dozen yelling school kids coming at you all at once is a force to be reckoned with. Usually, I don't stand a chance and I am the chief instructor.

I guess what I'm getting to, is I would like to get my black belt in the traditional Aikido and possibly look at other styles within Aikido to satisfy my "street" experience. I want Aikido to be practical and work on the street. And I guess I'm wondering whether that is even possible?

PAG. I should tell you that if you came to my dojo and told me that you wanted to get your first dan before going off somewhere else, I probably wouldn't let you in. Not because you are an aikido atheist or aikido agnostic, but because you are being unrealistic in your expectations. The parameters of aikido are what they are and it is not up to me to change them. In the Aikikai, when you reach 5th dan the diploma is bigger and the wording is different, so the Aikikai regard 5th dan as a good target for a reasonable degree of mastery in the art.
Incidentally, have you thought of BJJ?

I have looked at a few dojos around the US that offer the Tenshin style like Lenny Sly and a few others. Iwama is another one. They seem to be very practical. What are your thoughts on this process of mine? Anyone else struggle with this issue?

PAG. Well, I have never struggled with this issue because it has never been an issue. However, my own training history has been to move from teacher to teacher, not to train in the art simply because it is called aikido. Each of my teachers has been recommended by the previous one. I have taught philosophy for many years and one thing you should never do in an art like aikido is to 'falsify' reality, but you also need to question what your reality actually is.

Finally, in aikido there is always a tension between an organization and individuals who form the organization. The tension should be creative, but if it is not creative, the problem might lie with the organization - it is not really fit for its purpose; or it lies with one or some of the individuals - their 'reality' and the goals they are pursuing do not fit yours and what you want to do.

Best wishes and apologies for the long post.

P Goldsbury

[Rupert Atkinson]

I just don't see the utility in today's types of fight situations. Now all Aikido is not useless. I see a great deal of utility from "before the fight" situations like grabs, shoves, and that sort of thing. But it seems less effective with let's say wild street punches and boxing like punches. And of course, we cannot forget take downs such as tackles or clinches.

If you get hooked on Aikido you will find yourself in the dojo rather than on the street and will therefore have no need for it.

Sounds to me like you need to find a new street to live on.

[Trolloc63]

First of all, thank you everyone for replying. This has been giving me different points of view to think about. And thanks for all the different types of replies. Its nice that this forum is active and people respond to it.

However, I do have to interject, so again I apologize. I may be vilified for talking about this as I have given away my location, so the dojos in town may read this and know who I am. Anyway. I mean no disrespect. But my question still stands. I have no interest in fighting anyone, or getting into any street encounters. I live in a safe area, so this has nothing to do with it.

But, god forbid, and the fight picks me, will Aikido be effective on the street? What i'm mainly talking about is street encounters, which we have already covered (wild street punches, trained boxing type punches, grappling, and weapons). You see, I don't want to dedicate all this time to something that will not help me on the street. But I wound by lying if I said Aikido did not interest me.

And I know BJJ can work, that is, the street application. The schools around here are all sport application. I was in the Gracie Combatives program in Sioux City, IA. Did it for 9 months and the drive was too much.

Do you guys see what I'm getting at? Lenny Sly's stuff seems very effective, but then many vids debunk the things he is working on. I'm not saying that they are correct.

I mean no disrespect to my local dojos. But I just feel that the training at each one has some level of being unrealistic. Perhaps I need to supplement my Aikido training with something else to fill in this gap.

[StephanS]

It's easy, if you don't like the dojos(/teacher/teachings/students/aikido/style whatever), don't train there. Maybe check out the local BJJ and/or Krav Maga dojos. If that's what you like, that should be what you train.

[Ellis Amdur]

Mr. Patach - I think you have a truly legitimate question, particularly because the first generation aikidoka were very proud of their fighting ability. And Terry Dobson, (look him up - American postwar uchi-deshi) told me that he was the only guy who hadn't been in any fights among the uchideshi (he had before aikido, to be sure) and he felt quite inadequate - so he was always looking for an opportunity to get in a fight and test what he learned. (he later worked as a bouncer in a bar in Vermont, and threw and disarmed a guy swinging a chainsaw using a kokyunage)

I train in a variety of venue. In one school, a KravMaga, BJJ and other systems - very powerful - I'm brought in to inject something different - grappling with weaponry. And the BJJ guys, many of whom in a roll can beat me in less than 30 seconds - are all "dead." NOTE: they are quickly able to incorporate what I show them and close that vulnerability. (Note too, that I'm teaching from another art, not aikido, lest there be a misunderstanding).

Aikido is taught a variety of ways - with a variety of objectives. The techniques, obviously, are stilted - and the method of training is not 'live,' to use Matt Thornton's term. If, however, those techniques are a means of achieving a particular type of reflexes, physical strength and stability, they can easily lend themselves to being melded to what you already know. And one can do interesting things with pure aikido technique with a small dowel or flashlight in the palm of one's hand.

It's a cliche to say that each art has it's merits, but I work a lot with police and correctional officers and I know more than a few who train in aikido, and have used aikido techniques very effectively. One problem, though, it takes a lot longer time to get 'good enough' - it sounds, too, like you've some experience with more 'rugged' forms of unarmed self-defense. I have no doubt that if you happen to care for aikido and train diligently, you, like countless people before you will get to a point that your other training will meld with your aikido. But you have to care about aikido a whole lot to train that hard.
Best
Ellis Amdur

[lbb]

Then I moved to the States and trained at the main dojo in Cambridge, Mass. The Japanese instructor was an old school friend of Chiba and had started aikido at Chiba's urging. I lived near Harvard Square and used to walk home after training. We had been warned to be careful, for there had been a spate of murders and the culprits came from a tough suburb named Roxbury.

I'm sorry, I may never stop laughing after hearing Roxbury referred to as a "suburb" by someone living in Cambridge. :D

PAG. Since Chiba moved to the US, I assume he has students who are still active.

There are some in Birankai, but none near Nebraska.

[Peter Goldsbury]

I'm sorry, I may never stop laughing after hearing Roxbury referred to as a "suburb" by someone living in Cambridge. :D .

Why? Is it not a suburb of Boston?

The advice was given to me by a distant relative, an American who lived on Commonwealth Avenue in the Back Bay area of Boston and worked as a buyer for Lord & Taylor. I am not sure that she used the term suburb, but she was adamant that I should never go to or through Roxbury.

PAG

[Mary Eastland]

Hi Joe:

I had similar concerns when I started training. Aikido awakened a question in me that could not be answered fast enough. Not because I wanted to be able to fight but because I needed to be able to defend myself.

I started training in self defense along side of aikido. After 15 years of training and teaching self defense I let go of it because I was finally comfortable enough to depend on the inner aspects of aikido to help me feel safer.

We all have to ask our own questions and seek our own answers as we travel on these paths.

[SeiserL]

I started Aikido with a long FMA background (okay, I still burn rattan and play with sharp objects) ...
IMHO, we need to find an art/training/teacher that matches what we want ...
If you don't like the schools/teachers, then don't train there hoping they will become what you want them to be ...
I truly believe that its up to us the provide the intent/intensity to the training, that way we can learn from anyone/everyone ...
There are faster ways to self-defense skills that are not found in traditional/sports schools ...
But, I would not give up my 22+ years in the Aiki world for any faster route ...
Self-knowledge and self-defense are more attitude/intent/intensity than any school/dojo/teacher can show you ...
But, by training and knowing yourself, you can probably find what you want where you are ...

[Erick Mead]

I get the gist of what you are trying to tell me. We start with the foundation and work our way up, just like math per se. But this really doesn't answer the question. I would take a slight detour from your math metaphor and use music instead. Aikido is like teaching a form of music theory in conjunction with perfomance training, steadily incorporating that theory into the trained physical movements. As with music, there are other ways of understanding the principles involved. Pentatonic is not the same as fully chromatic eight-tone scale, much less the twelve-tone system ( if you even call THAT music :crazy: :yuck: :hypno: ) (Martial arts have no trademark on methodological rivalry) :D

One does not teach guitar or piano by starting with fast arpeggios. As in musical training, we alter the scale in both space and time to expand our attention to key elements. We expand the space or scale of action (stepping punches v. jabs for instance) where interactions and shapes of correct action may be more readily perceived in larger, slower movements, than in the "martial reality" of often short, sharp action. In training, I often say that aikido can certainly work fast, indeed almost imperceptibly so, as Ikeda Shihan has on more than one occasion helpfully persuaded me :eek:

But in training modes, the test of it, I also point out, is whether it works slow as well. Aikido is about structural compromise -- substituting momentum may well knock someone down -- but not by using what aikido trains to deploy. Once done slow AND correctly -- then tighter scale and pacing can be added to the training regimen. And rare is the beast among really good musicians that ever stops practicing his scales. Yukio Sagawa, a well-reputed aiki adept -- though in Daito-ryu, recounted his decades of daily intensive training with the furibo -- to much the same purposes.

How can we cultivate this foundation into a street atmosphere? K.I.S.S. principle applies. To start down the road of martially applicable performance, teach simple, and buildable controls of space and structure, according to proper aikido principles. Teaching basics of irimi-tenkan in dealing with the structure of a straight punch is one of these. It is easily mastered by bare beginners. Once understood, the lesson can then be developed and evolved top apply to other interactions and with other forms of strike. "Chopsticks" is likewise hardly great musical art in itself, but it is undeniably musical and one can learn it's basics in one sitting, and practicing it is highly applicable to other more "performative" works.

Does this require the right kind of style? ... in teaching, I would say, yes. The problem is that few teachers actually think this way about their art. They are largely concrete, bodily driven learners -- and usually teach that way, too. I suspect that Japan's very categorized social mode encourages analytical minds (who might take the approach I suggest, as I do myself) largely to do other things. Relatively fewer are likely to enter or stay with martial arts for the long haul.

In the West, we have a broader and more varied view of this kind of "fit" to vocation/avocation, and so, in my experience, we seem to get a comparably wider variety of perspectives in teaching and training methods. FWIW, I perceive that Saotome came to the U.S. -- judging from his body of work -- largely for this reason. He had ways he wanted to approach things that, in my view, probably did not accommodate themselves well to the strictures of the categories of thought in his homeland, much less to the natural social and pedagogical dynamics of an iemoto system of martial art.

Or perhaps different backgrounds in martial arts? I have found no martial background to be a hindrance -- or much of an aid in seeking what aikido is seeking in physical terms. Some are more relatable than others. The late Hooker Sensei, my first teacher, forever spoke of his devotion to regular sanchin-no-kata, which he felt aided his numerous long-term health diffculties, among other things. Ostensibly, that training seems remote or highly divorced from aikido, but now I see that it is in fact highly and deeply relatable to what we are going for, in both training and in application. "The stuff" is inherent in the human body, and aspects of it may be and are found and trained in many other arts, though our focus is more explicit and intensive on the point, and theirs typically less intense in that focus and more pragmatically allied to other kinds of action.

Is it even possible to make Aikido more martial?If he were alive to ask the question, I would dare you to ask it of Hooker Sensei. The wolfish smile on his face alone would back you up a step or two, :D -- just before he invited you to indulge him to answer the point somewhat more directly. :eek:

[Ellis Amdur]

Peter - In 'technical parlance, Roxbury is a neighborhood of Boston (actually a dissolved municipality - it had it's own gov't, once upon a time, but was subsumed within Boston). I understand your confusion. When I heard my wife talk about all the crime in the 'suburbs' of Paris, I was surprised - in her terminology, these were areas of the city, cut-off by roads and lack of direct mass transit - kind of like dwellings outside a medieval castle wall. In America, we usually think of suburbs are being affluent towns near a city where there are lawns, playgrounds, good schools, and to be frank, mostly white people, although this is a stereotype, to say the least.

A Roxbury story: In 1970, I hitchhiked up to Boston and hear there was a hippie shelter one could stay - in Roxbury. There was a free converted school bus that had a route to several counter-culture locations, and I hopped on the last bus to the shelter, only to find that it had closed months before. And I had no ride out - and I was totally unaware of any of the dynamics of 1970 racially atomized Boston.

So I decided to walk all the way to Cambridge, where I knew someone who might be able to put me up. And I was getting a lot of hostile looks and comments, and a couple of guys started shadowing me. A young woman approached and asked if I wanted to tighten up, and first I thought it was because I was so good looking (I'm sure you understand my mistake) but then I realized it was a commercial offer and I thanked her and said "no, I don't have any money, anyway" all of which surprised her. And then she said, "If you are looking for drugs, . . . " and I said, "no, really, I don't have any money.""
And she stopped dead in the street, put her hands on her hips and said, "Then what is a white boy walking through Roxbury at midnight if he isn't looking for p***y or drugs?" And when I said I was just walking to somewhere else, she said, "Well, you are not going to make it out of here alive." And then she put her arm in mine, and insisted on walking me, at least 20 blocks to protect me. I said I was alright, but she said, "No you're not." And whenever someone approached - some gangster youths, drug hustlers, whatever, - she'd tighten her arm and snarl, "White boy's with me!" And everyone would back off. And at the end of 20 blocks, she let me go, and said, "Don't be so stupid." And walked away . . ..another angel in America.
Ellis

[Peter Goldsbury]

Hello Ellis,

I came to the US in 1973 on a non-teaching fellowship in Classics at Harvard University. I lived in an ancient dormitory for graduate students on Oxford Street. It was called Conant Hall, and was clearly named after someone notable. Your post sent me to Apple Maps and I located the hall. It was situated next to a couple of museums. I shared a set of rooms with a man named Rick, who had graduated from Dartmouth College and who was doing architecture. His father was a surgeon from Wisconsin. Many of his friends came from the Boston area and so I was sometimes part of a group. It never entered our heads to go anywhere near Roxbury.

On training days, I would walk across the Harvard campus to Harvard Square and take a bus to Central Square. After an apres-training beverage with a group of aikido friends, I would walk back along Massachusetts Avenue and then take some short cuts across the campus back to Conant Hall.

My father had spent his retirement doing research into family history and had discovered that the family had another name, which was Goldsborough (-borough, -burgh and -bury all have similar roots: the names mean town). This was my cousin's name and she was delighted to discover distant relatives in the UK and even more delighted to find out that I was at Harvard, where generations of her and her late husband's family had been students. She introduced me to her friends, who were all old Boston families and all Harvard graduates.

I did not meet my cousin very often, but occasionally I would have dinner with her Harvard friends or wander over to Lord & Taylor's in Boston, where I was requested to talk quite a lot, so her staff could listen to my accent. It was my cousin who cautioned me about Roxbury. She knew I walked home from Central Square frequently and might have thought that I liked walking for relaxation and worried that my walks might include Roxbury.

The aikido dojo (New England Aikikai) was a very interesting community. The shihan, Mitsunari Kanai, was a sword fanatic and spent most of his time in his little office, in the far corner of the dojo, polishing swords. Nevertheless, training had a different feel to that in Chiba's dojo in London, although both dojos had cohorts of tough yudansha and I think no one would have seriously questioned whether aikido really 'worked' in these circumstances - at either dojo.

Best wishes,

[lbb]

Why? Is it not a suburb of Boston?

No, it's a neighborhood of Boston. It's not without its hazards, but nervous white folks tend to think it's much more dangerous than it is.

[Peter Goldsbury]

No, it's a neighborhood of Boston. It's not without its hazards, but nervous white folks tend to think it's much more dangerous than it is.

I see. You use the present tense, but I was there in the seventies and Ellis's cautionary tale suggests that it was not true then. To understand my confusion, you should know that I live in both a suburb and a neighbourhood of Hiroshima. Ushita used to be a village and was actually called Ushita-mura. Then it became an official part of Hiroshima City. The areas are divided into specific numbered blocks and without this the post office would not be able to deliver mail. There are no street numbers and several houses can share the same address. There are various Japanese terms for both suburb and neighbourhood, but these are merely general descriptions and do not have any official sanction. And, since aikido is a Japanese budo, there are clubs in all areas of the city. My own dojo is part of a culture centre in a large shopping mall.

[Trolloc63]

I appreciate all the replies I have seen so far. All of you have great perspectives on Aikido. I think at this point my choice is either put up or shut up. I have been on the sidelines for far too long.

I believe I will continue with my Aikido career. Out of the 3 schools in this area, I will pick the school that feels right for me. My eventual goal will be to get my black belt. Upon obtaining this, I will have to investigate other "forms" of Aikido.

Beyond that, I will most likely mix my Aikido with other arts such as boxing, muay thai, 52 blocks, judo, wing chun.

Having spent too much time watching YouTube vids, I do feel that Aikido can be very martial if it is practiced right. I feel that the tools I need can be obtain with a variety of teachers and approaches, but it will be a long road ahead. The gaps in Aikido may need to be filled with other strategies, but it is doable.

[lbb]

I believe I will continue with my Aikido career. Out of the 3 schools in this area, I will pick the school that feels right for me. My eventual goal will be to get my black belt. Upon obtaining this, I will have to investigate other "forms" of Aikido.

Beyond that, I will most likely mix my Aikido with other arts such as boxing, muay thai, 52 blocks, judo, wing chun.

One piece of advice only: try to avoid planning out your experience in something which you have yet to experience first-hand. It's a bit like planning to build a house with a tool whose purpose you only vaguely understand and have never used, in conjunction with other tools that you may or may not be familiar with and that may not work together (let's see, I'll take a wankel rotary engine and add an electron microscope and the result will be...). Set aside your goals and preconceptions. Experience aikido without narratives. Resist the newbie impulse to shout "I get it!" after a whole month of training. Stand back from fervent declarations of what your capital-P Path is, at least until you've walked a good ways along it. Do not make the mistake, as you touch the elephant's trunk, of concluding that the elephant is like a snake.

[shuckser]

If you want to be effective on the street, learn to be a comedian.

Seriously. Words move faster than fists, and can be much more disarming.

[Garth Jones]

I suggest that anybody trying to evaluate the 'effectiveness' (whatever that means) of one martial art versus another read 'Meditations on Violence' by Rory Miller. It's available free online at https://ymaa.com/sites/default/files/book/sample/Meditations-on-Violence.pdf
Cheers,
Garth

[jurasketu]

Or if you prefer to compensate the author properly for their hard work and effort. :)

https://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Violence-Comparison-Martial-Training-ebook/dp/B01DN0GVM4

[Walter Martindale]

I suggest that anybody trying to evaluate the 'effectiveness' (whatever that means) of one martial art versus another read 'Meditations on Violence' by Rory Miller. It's available free online at https://ymaa.com/sites/default/files/book/sample/Meditations-on-Violence.pdf
Cheers,
Garth

This link takes one to a sample showing the introductory material and first chapters. Having read it, I’m considering buying a copy, making the link below, to Amazon, helpful...

Or if you prefer to compensate the author properly for their hard work and effort. :)

https://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Violence-Comparison-Martial-Training-ebook/dp/B01DN0GVM4

[jurasketu]

I do strongly recommend reading Meditations of Violence. I also recommend On Combat.

https://www.amazon.com/Combat-Psychology-Physiology-Deadly-Conflict/dp/0964920549

[Trolloc63]

So I've been doing some video research on realistic applications of Aikido. And there is this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7MNOpQhlBQ

This is a vid of Steven Segal practicing with some MMA guys. At the 2:40 min mark, he shows the application of applying a technique off of a more realistic straight punch.

From my limited knowledge of several different styles, this appears to be a combination of blocking with the arm/elbow, riding the punch or feeding it to the other hand which captures, then attacking with the first hand to the face as a strike or distraction. You can then apply technique. Kind of a difficult description, but watch the video and you will see it. Seems to be pretty realistic to me. But like anything you would have to train it and spar.

Does anyone know where he learned these hand deflections? Some of this seems like limp capture mixed with slipping, mixed with limb destruction via the elbow.

A similar form in 52 blocks is the "skull and crossbones", but that's for straight destruction.

Very interesting stuff if you ask me.

[Trolloc63]

So after more research, this appears to be some form of arm deflections, not hand deflections. This vid shows some good examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDsJBtvqdo4

Seems pretty realistic if the attacker committed. Probably less so if they did not throw a heavy punch.

[Trolloc63]

I love how I point stuff out that may actually work in real life and I get crickets.

Anyway I have begun my Aikido journey yet again, as humiliating as it is. I guess it will take a few years before I have a good understanding.

:(

[Demetrio Cereijo]

I love how I point stuff out that may actually work in real life and I get crickets.:(
Welcome to aikido :D

[robin_jet_alt]

I love how I point stuff out that may actually work in real life and I get crickets.

Anyway I have begun my Aikido journey yet again, as humiliating as it is. I guess it will take a few years before I have a good understanding.

:(

I'm not sure what you want us to say. It looks like aikido to me. (I'll leave it to others to talk about the quality of the aikido.) It's the sort of thing that most of us have done every day for years or decades. I think Mary wrote something earlier about being careful about making declarations with limited experience. They were wise words...

[Mary Eastland]

It is hard to learn new ideas when one is attached to to old ways.

[lbb]

I love how I point stuff out that may actually work in real life and I get crickets.

Consider the possibility that some of us, at least, were busy with things other than aikiweb. Don't read so much into it.

[Erick Mead]

So after more research, this appears to be some form of arm deflections, not hand deflections. This vid shows some good examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDsJBtvqdo4

Seems pretty realistic if the attacker committed. Probably less so if they did not throw a heavy punch.

To put that move in more formal terms, if one cares -- it strings two basic movement variants in a manner of henkawaza:

1) It begins as an ikkyo engagement of the punch. It treats nage's arm as foreshortened (as though with stubby elbow-length arms) but the tai sabaki of it is ikkyo

2) The follow-up change in the backfist (metsubushi?) is a manner of straight entering kokyunage, (and the tai sabaki is equally primed to invert for an ikkyo engagement of the (not unlikely) off-hand counterpunch by uke)

3) The final movement variants seem to illustrate that if entry is too impeded for the full kokyunage insertion, there are options (in the exact same mode of throw) to:
a) buckle his structure rolling/striking the shoulder back, or
b) following the leading arm flow around, down and into the arm-wrapped kotegaeshi

The two basic tai sabaki principles are present -- The first closing the body from the outside of the strike, the second opening the body into two possible forms of kokyu throw and the last of that variant (the formal kotegaeshi) then reversing to close the body once again.

In all the options -- only the range and manner of engagement allowed by the circumstance really change. The tai sabaki is simple and spindle-like, in the manner of a "prayer drum" with the in-yo close-open-close etc. of the frame in concert with the progressive irimi-tenkan of the movements.

Key thing is IMO, that one does not, cannot, plan this or train this precise engagement -- it evolves completely from the first principles expressed from the body in course of the physical engagement itself.

Aikido is (or ought to be) an extensive training mode for discovering, learning and expressing those first principles of this manner of action, not a collection of mere "techniques." Looking at it the first way makes it plainly martially effective and profound. Looking at it the second way makes it seem trite and utterly lacking.

This difference of perception in the purpose and intent of the art is fundamental to these sorts of debates, it seems to me.

[jurasketu]

In addition to given an Amen to the comments of Erik Mead, Mary Malmros, Mary Eastland, Robin Boyd and Demetrio Cereijo, at risk of being obtuse, let me speak to training methods and effectiveness outside of martial arts with an example from my own experience.

In high school (many moons ago), I was an elite Mathlete. I even have a varsity letter and was named my high school's Mathlete of the Year. In other words, I was really good at competitive problem solving. 😊

A Math Team tournament usually consists of two parts. First, the players are given a challenging thirty to ninety minute multiple-choice test of unusual variations of the standard problem types. Then there are 16 to 24 single-problem written competition rounds called "ciphering" that are scored based on time (i.e. more points for getting the answer correct faster) or in order of completion of the competing players (i.e. the first four players with correct answers would score 4-3-2-1 and the remaining players would get nothing). In a tournament of twenty or more teams, scoring "firsts" or "seconds" is crucial to winning. The ciphering problems are either ordinary problems that would be difficult to solve quickly using standard techniques or are unusual problem variations without a standard solution technique. Both situations require the players to creatively apply the principles of problem solving to invent a fast and accurate solution technique in the competitive moment.

It requires a special kind of Math Zen to intuit and execute a solution technique under the crushing panic of that competitive time pressure. That Math Zen is not easy to learn or teach. It requires understanding principles, explicit confidence in the basics to avoid fatal errors and calmness of mind to avert the panic.

Mathletes don't complain that the techniques that they had spent considerable time learning were not effective in a competition. It is understood explicitly or implicitly that the problem variations and solution techniques presented in training were idealized versions designed to teach the principles of problem solving. Real, complex problems require application of problem solving principles and confident execution of the basic techniques.

I still regularly use those problem-solving principles to earn a very fine income as a software engineer solving novel problems effectively under the pressures of time.

For me, I feel/recognize that Math training in my Aikido training. If only my Aikido Zen now were as good as my Math Zen was then.:D

Explicitly stated, the lesson is that Aikido training is very much like Math training. Aikido training seems to be purposed to teach martial principles that can be applied to the world of general martial situations/problems.

[lbb]

Explicitly stated, the lesson is that Aikido training is very much like Math training. Aikido training seems to be purposed to teach martial principles that can be applied to the world of general martial situations/problems.

I agree - but I don't think it's something that can be grasped from the outside, any more than someone who has never studied algebra can understand differential equations. The question is whether, as someone new come to a field of study, you look at what advanced practitioners do and declare it fraudulent because you don't have the background to understand how it's done. The study of aikido to me is more like an inductive proof than standard deductive reasoning :D

Bottom line, to OP, you can call this a copout if you want, but to learn you really do have to empty your cup, set aside preconceptions, trust your teacher, and train with sincerity in what they are teaching you now, not what you hope to learn later. So you have to make a judgment call, about whether this person is trustworthy (recommendations help) and whether the hoped-for goal is worth your time in any case. Understand that the judgment is whether it is worth YOUR time, not whether it's worth someone else's time or whether it's worthy in general. As my mom used to say at restaurants, "You order for you and I'll order for me."

[Erick Mead]

... but to learn you really do have to empty your cup, set aside preconceptions, trust your teacher, and train with sincerity in what they are teaching you now, not what you hope to learn later. So you have to make a judgment call, about whether this person is trustworthy (recommendations help) and whether the hoped-for goal is worth your time in any case.

I'll add to this the point that if all one learns is what is being taught -- one isn't paying enough attention to the lesson.

As the saying goes: it is a poor teacher who teaches only the lesson given; it is a poor student who learns only the lesson taught.

[SeiserL]

Aikido training seems to be purposed to teach martial principles that can be applied to the world of general martial situations/problems.
Greetings and agreed.
IMHO, too often we look at the technique and totally miss learning the principles that make it work/applicable.

[Trolloc63]

Good replies so far. As you may know I have re-started my Aikido training yet again. I think it is well worth it. Forgive me for not sounding like it was so. I was merely giving you a "someday" thumbnail sketch on where I could possibly take my Aikido. I know I have to put my time in, which is what I'm doing now.