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anon wbelt
09-29-2017, 05:44 AM
Hi,

I am a white belt who is married and my sensei is a married man as well as significantly older than me. He hits all the points on this list

http://thinklikeablackbelt.com/blog/signs-and-traits-of-emotional-predators/

Long and short is I have always had affections and strong admiration for his aikido (very beautiful), the dojo is a key part of my life, he is a handsome man and embodies authority. But up until recently this was not a problem because we both had our situation and he is newlywed (last year). However lately I was spending more time alone with him after training and he offered a therapy (he is a trained therapist) because he sensed I was stressed. I accepted and after lots of feeling - initially for the therapy - he must have detected my attraction, because he started to hold me intimately. I pulled away because I am a married woman and he told me to go, but then I stopped at the door and he pulled me to him again until again I pulled back and left. Since then we spoke about it twice, once from me telling him we can never be alone again because this can't happen but I want to remain his student. He said this is fine and nothing will change on his part, no problem. But the next day, again briefly alone (I was last out of the dojo), he is touching my hair, my arm, breathes in my ear that I am close (not consciously, putting something on the pc), using me as uke a lot ever since.

When we spoke the second time (his request) he explained that he doesn't think this is a bad thing, there should be no guilt or shame, it is natural and enjoyable, fun even. He said it is like technique, you can resist or you can embrace it. I told him he is playing games. He seems to enjoy very much my discomfort and distraction during the last days. I have not told my husband, because he would make me quit the dojo and it is my life and nothing has happened. But I feel terribly because yes, a part of me wants him very much, even if it would just be sex, but I cannot do that to my loving husband. I have one friend I trust very much and spoke with him about it (he knows and hates the sensei) and he anticipated everything that happened. He told me sensei will not give up because he always gets what he wants. I don't know what to do. I would like to hear opinions

Thanks
Anon

Mary Eastland
11-21-2017, 03:42 PM
Find another dojo.

Peter Goldsbury
11-21-2017, 04:38 PM
Ditto to what Mary advised.

Demetrio Cereijo
11-21-2017, 05:16 PM
I don't know what to do. I would like to hear opinions.
Run away.

lbb
11-21-2017, 08:35 PM
Leave. This cannot end well.

robin_jet_alt
11-21-2017, 09:19 PM
Leave. This cannot end well.

Agreed. Don't delay.

shizentai
11-22-2017, 02:15 AM
He said it is like technique, you can resist or you can embrace it.

Leave Sensei Weinstein right now.

a part of me wants him very much, even if it would just be sex

While you're making change, consider re-evaluating what exactly do you want from a partner at this point in time... husband or otherwise.

erikmenzel
11-22-2017, 06:10 AM
Ditto to what Mary said.

lbb
11-22-2017, 08:52 AM
Um, also...this is up to you, but if your dojo is part of a larger association, it should have a harassment policy. Birankai North America does, it is posted in every dojo and contains contact information. If there is a way to report this sensei's behavior to the association, please consider doing so. You will be helping others. And if you don't feel safe or okay doing this now, please document what happened. One day you may feel like speaking out.

Ellis Amdur
11-22-2017, 05:46 PM
Part of what makes people like this so good at what they do is they convince you that their art (in this case aikido) is unlike any other, uniquely graceful, powerful, etc. They put you in a false dilemma (actually, you put yourself in that dilemma) when you believe that if you leave, you will never have another chance in life at something so special.

The proof of this is you making your husband to be the bad guy. "He'll make me leave the dojo" - the bad guy is the man who has such disrespect for your marriage that he has you 'agreeing' to keep a secret from your husband, one that is, without him knowing affecting you and thus your relationship with him.

If budo - aikido - should be instruction on integrity, you are getting instruction on the lack of integrity. Hence you are not in a budo dojo. And if aikido is a budo, then you are not, in fact, in an aikido dojo either. Just an imitation of one.

Yes, you should leave. Staying will damage your marriage, your sense of respect and eventually, quite likely you'll be so burned out, very possibly will quit not only the dojo, but aikido itsel.

There is nothing good for you there.

Ellis Amdur

Mary Eastland
11-22-2017, 06:39 PM
Your wrote: I have not told my husband, because he would make me quit the dojo and it is my life and nothing has happened. But I feel terribly because yes, a part of me wants him very much, even if it would just be sex, but I cannot do that to my loving husband. I have one friend I trust very much and spoke with him about it (he knows and hates the sensei) and he anticipated everything that happened. He told me sensei will not give up because he always gets what he wants. I don't know what to do. I would like to hear opinions

This sounds tricky to me. You are a grown up. If you lied or cheated you would be hurting yourself.

Peter Goldsbury
11-22-2017, 07:43 PM
Again, ditto to what Ellis Amdur and Mary Eastland stated, in Posts #10 and #11.

I have always understood aikido to be about integrity, and honesty with oneself, developed through training. The way you treat your opponents in the dojo is supposed to have a direct and mutual relationship with the way you handle your relationships outside the dojo. In this respect, instructors have a double responsibility. In the dojo, they have to teach their own students to cultivate these virtues, but to do this, they have to display the virtues in good measure themselves.

All my teachers have been Japanese, and have rigidly separated their own 'private lives' from their 'training lives' on the tatami. They never gave me any opportunity to make negative judgments about the former. I once had an occasion to confront a Japanese aikido shihan about the rough way he treated his students, but this concerned the way he treated students in the dojo: the way he conducted his own domestic relationships was absolutely no concern of mine. (Though I knew much about this aspect of his life also, I knew it because the shihan himself asked me to do so, introducing me to some of his non-aikido friends. However-and this point is very important, when this happened I moved from being his student to being a friend.)

For your dojo instructor to interfere in your relationship with your own husband is, in my opinion, a cardinal sin, well up on the same level as the seven deadly sins. An instructor simply should not do this, despite all the temptations involved. Being able to resist such temptations is, my opinion, part of what it means to be an instructor. This is especially important in a full-body art like aikido.

Demetrio Cereijo
11-23-2017, 07:24 AM
Being able to resist such temptations is, my opinion, part of what it means to be an instructor.

A very important part, IMO.

Janet Rosen
11-24-2017, 03:33 PM
The proof of this is you making your husband to be the bad guy. "He'll make me leave the dojo" - the bad guy is the man who has such disrespect for your marriage that he has you 'agreeing' to keep a secret from your husband, one that is, without him knowing affecting you and thus your relationship with him.

THIS.

Your sensei is a sick fuck and he is playing on exactly the strings he knows will work.

OF COURSE your husband will want you to leave the dojo. ANYBODY who cares at all about either you as a person or about the integrity of martial arts will tell you to leave the dojo.

Get out, no explanation to Sick Fuck Sensei is needed and in fact you should absolutely NOT engage in further discussions with him. Report to any larger organization. And look around for a better place to train.

Janet Rosen
11-24-2017, 03:36 PM
Again, ditto to what Ellis Amdur and Mary Eastland stated, in Posts #10 and #11.
Being able to resist such temptations is, my opinion, part of what it means to be an instructor. This is especially important in a full-body art like aikido.

Understand that the predator has no interest in resisting temptation. He only pretends to be in conflict in order to play this tug-release-tug game with you, much more effective for snaring you than simply taking what he wants.

SeiserL
11-25-2017, 06:18 AM
Bow out and walk away ...

Susan Dalton
11-25-2017, 05:46 PM
Yes, to all of the above. Many years ago I was heartbroken to learn that some of my friends in the dojo did not see aikido from the same point of view I did. My sensei told me that people get into martial arts for all kinds of reasons, some to practice budo and become better human beings, some for the power they can exert over others. Run.

philipsmith
11-27-2017, 07:41 AM
abuse of position pure and simple.
Walk away now

Michael Hackett
11-28-2017, 04:03 PM
You've already defined just what kind of a person your teacher is and recognize what a danger to your marriage he represents. Now, is aikido as important to you as your marriage? Are there other dojo in your region where you could continue your training safely? If not, so what? Aikido is an important part of my life - something I can't conceive of abandoning, but I would instantly find another art if my marriage were threatened by aikido.

One of the concepts in aikido training is developing the ability to avoid conflict when possible. Here is a great opportunity for you to practice that component of the art. Leave this teacher and his dojo and never look back. Nothing he has to offer is worth the pain and suffering you and your husband will experience.

Best wishes

Larry Feldman
12-04-2017, 01:55 PM
Anon - Aside from the consistent excellent advice you received, I wanted to mention that Ellis and Lynn are 'mental health professionals'. LISTEN TO THEM.

Any short term discomfort in a move will be well offset by long term sanity.

ChrisMoses
12-04-2017, 02:37 PM
Get the eff out and make sure you tell the rest of the women training there about it. Even money you're not the only one who he's doing this with. Totally unacceptable. There's a teacher in my town who years ago decided to "rededicate" himself to his marriage. So before he bowed in class, kicked all of the women he was dating on the side out of his dojo. People still don't want to talk about it, but everyone training at the time knew about it.

Mary Eastland
12-05-2017, 09:26 AM
Sound advice is to get out now.

The other advice about telling what is happening may not be so good. Whistle blowers are not embraced.

You may be feeling vulnerable because a place where you sought strength and empowerment turns out to be not safe. Adding to that shakey feeling by telling "authorities" may not be helpful.

I like Mary M's thought about documenting the process and deciding if you want to tell or may want to share at a later time.

I don't think you have any responsibly to other women or an organization at the moment. The main thing is help yourself. Only you can do that.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-05-2017, 09:55 AM
I don't think you have any responsibly to other women or an organization at the moment.

At the moment?

Maybe after that predator actually victimize someone would be a good moment? After the third victim? The fourth?

Please do tell us what is the number of victims needed to take action.

RonRagusa
12-05-2017, 10:25 AM
At the moment?

Maybe after that predator actually victimize someone would be a good moment? After the third victim? The fourth?

Please do tell us what is the number of victims needed to take action.

Perhaps you've never had any experience being a whistle blower. If she (the original poster) publicizes the sensei's behavior most likely she will be ostracized by the rest of the dojo. Without concrete proof of predatory behavior by her sensei, it's her word against his and that rarely ends well for the accuser.

One only look to the news to see how women who come forward with accusations of sexual harassment are publicly vilified; even when the alleged harasser is taped bragging about his exploits.

Ron

Demetrio Cereijo
12-05-2017, 10:39 AM
Perhaps you've never had any experience being a whistle blower. If she (the original poster) publicizes the sensei's behavior most likely she will be ostracized by the rest of the dojo. Without concrete proof of predatory behavior by her sensei, it's her word against his and that rarely ends well for the accuser.

Ron

So what? If what OP said is true, she needs to get her ass outside of that dojo ASAP. The risk of being ostracized by her former dojo members is the less worrying of her problems.

One only look to the news to see how women who come forward with accusations of sexual harassment are publicly vilified; even when the alleged harasser is taped bragging about his exploits.

Err... as I don't want to be banned, at least until Prof Goldsbury publishes his last TIE column, I better stop posting in this thread.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-05-2017, 10:57 AM
Even if I get banned...

One only look to the news to see how women who come forward with accusations of sexual harassment are publicly vilified; even when the alleged harasser is taped bragging about his exploits.

Ron

So this is how you roll? This is what you say to your students? You play on them the "behave or you'll be ostracised" card?

ChrisMoses
12-05-2017, 11:33 AM
Sound advice is to get out now.

The other advice about telling what is happening may not be so good. Whistle blowers are not embraced.


If you're leaving anyway, you're already stepping out of the group so who cares if you're not embraced by the group you left? You might get a hug from someone a year later who finds themselves in the exact same situation and recognizes it as a pattern with this jerk. Whispernet people.

RonRagusa
12-05-2017, 12:06 PM
Even if I get banned... So this is how you roll? This is what you say to your students? You play on them the "behave or you'll be ostracised" card?

Oh please... I teach Aikido. I'm not a social worker, lawyer or therapist so I don't give advice along those lines. And I don't play any cards on my students. It's not part of my job description to tell them how to behave. They're all adults capable of making their own decisions. Personally I think the OP should leave the dojo but since, at least to my knowledge, she hasn't then her first duty is to take care of herself while she still trains there.

Ron

Mary Eastland
12-05-2017, 01:41 PM
At the moment?

Maybe after that predator actually victimize someone would be a good moment? After the third victim? The fourth?

Please do tell us what is the number of victims needed to take action.

Why is it the victim responsible for rectifying the situation?
In a dynamic such as this...getting out can be really hard and then piling on telling makes it too much.

Baby steps can be taken and are important.

Mary Eastland
12-05-2017, 01:46 PM
If you're leaving anyway, you're already stepping out of the group so who cares if you're not embraced by the group you left? You might get a hug from someone a year later who finds themselves in the exact same situation and recognizes it as a pattern with this jerk. Whispernet people.

Or you might not. Do you have any experiences to share that turned out well?

I have told a couple of times in my life and ended up feeling not welcome in other circles besides the ones I have left.

I might support another woman privately but I would be hard pressed to tell about a situation like this publicly again.

ChrisMoses
12-05-2017, 02:05 PM
Or you might not. Do you have any experiences to share that turned out well?

I have told a couple of times in my life and ended up feeling not welcome in other circles besides the ones I have left.

I might support another woman privately but I would be hard pressed to tell about a situation like this publicly again.

Yes, I've been the one to say, "I believe you and this will never happen again." Yes we did something about it. No one blamed the person coming forward and we're still friends.

Sometimes these things don't end well, it was really hard to be one of the first people posting about Clint George for example when he was accused of grooming a minor who was a student of his, but I did it.

It's my strong opinion that people who abuse their power do so regularly, it's never a one off event.

Finally, in case it's not absolutely clear, I really feel for the OP and hope she's able to take some of this advice as supportive. This must really suck to have to go through.

lbb
12-06-2017, 09:06 AM
Perhaps you've never had any experience being a whistle blower. If she (the original poster) publicizes the sensei's behavior most likely she will be ostracized by the rest of the dojo. Without concrete proof of predatory behavior by her sensei, it's her word against his and that rarely ends well for the accuser.

Her problem is not the risk of being ostracized by the rest of the dojo. Her problem is remaining in the dojo, having anything to do with the dojo, for another second.

Your advice about whistleblowers is no doubt useful in the general sense, but in this context it's frankly ludicrous and unhelpful. If she has a grain of sanity, she is DONE with that dojo. If you read my earlier post, I said that IF her association has a sexual harassment/misconduct policy (and if they do, it should have a reporting procedure that bypasses the perpetrator, obviously), she should consider using it. What exactly do you take issue with?

ninjedi
12-06-2017, 12:44 PM
Perhaps you've never had any experience being a whistle blower. If she (the original poster) publicizes the sensei's behavior most likely she will be ostracized by the rest of the dojo. Without concrete proof of predatory behavior by her sensei, it's her word against his and that rarely ends well for the accuser.

One only look to the news to see how women who come forward with accusations of sexual harassment are publicly vilified; even when the alleged harasser is taped bragging about his exploits.

Ron

You've just summarized the biggest problem lighting up headlines in America these days. It's why so many women are speaking up now, about incidents that happened 10+ years ago.
#beliveher

Oh please... I teach Aikido. I'm not a social worker, lawyer or therapist so I don't give advice along those lines. And I don't play any cards on my students. It's not part of my job description to tell them how to behave. They're all adults capable of making their own decisions. Personally I think the OP should leave the dojo but since, at least to my knowledge, she hasn't then her first duty is to take care of herself while she still trains there.

Ron

I hesitate to call this outright terrible advice, because this guy is running his own dojo/business and people have a choice if they want to be there or not, but the whole "if you don't like it then leave" thing is played out and smacks of misogyny.

Mary Eastland
12-06-2017, 12:56 PM
[QUOTE=

I hesitate to call this outright terrible advice, because this guy is running his own dojo/business and people have a choice if they want to be there or not, but the whole "if you don't like it then leave" thing is played out and smacks of misogyny.[/QUOTE]

That is a funny one. Or could it be because he lives in the real with a real women who has spoken up several times. A real women who has been ostracized by other women co-workers and by the offender who she still gets to work with.

And then there is the time when that real woman in the real world spoke up at another job and the atmosphere became so intolerable she had to quit a job that she had been at for 10 years and really loved.

Maybe the OP just wants the abuse to stop and maybe she loves her dojo. Maybe asking for help involves hearing a lot of different ideas. Maybe...

Demetrio Cereijo
12-06-2017, 01:54 PM
Oh please... I teach Aikido.
I do not agree with that statement.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-06-2017, 01:58 PM
Why is it the victim responsible for rectifying the situation?

The victim has the same moral responsablilities than any other person.

RonRagusa
12-06-2017, 02:16 PM
I do not agree with that statement.

Your post completely irrelevant, and as with most of your Aikido posts, contributes nothing to the thread.

Ron

Demetrio Cereijo
12-06-2017, 02:29 PM
Your post completely irrelevant, and as with most of your Aikido posts, contributes nothing to the thread.

Ron

Also, I do not agree with those statements.

RonRagusa
12-06-2017, 02:34 PM
Also, I do not agree with those statements.

Life's too short to fence with someone just interested in trolling an Aikido board. To the block list with you.

Mary Eastland
12-06-2017, 03:34 PM
The victim has the same moral responsibilities than any other person.

I disagree. You don't get to declare what her responsibilities are. Each circumstance is different and while we must do out best...sometimes a person's best might not measure up to what you describe and it is still good enough.

Mary Eastland
12-06-2017, 03:36 PM
Also, I do not agree with those statements.

Can you describe how saying Ron does not teach aikido contribute to this thread?
And having never trained with him how can you come to the conclusion?

ChrisMoses
12-06-2017, 03:55 PM
Out of respect for the OP, can we just drop this? Advice was asked for and given. Feels like this has run its course.

lbb
12-07-2017, 07:59 AM
Out of respect for the OP, can we just drop this? Advice was asked for and given. Feels like this has run its course.

Or take it to another thread. It isn't helping OP.

Mary Eastland
12-07-2017, 10:12 AM
It actually does relate to the thread...someone writes something that is against the forum rules,
( i.e. a personal attack...) and when someone defends themselves it makes other people uncomfortable and the uncomfortable ones make it seem like the whole situation is bad, not just the attacker.

It really reflects what happens in the real world

So to the OP: I repeat. Take care of yourself in a way that works for you. And don't expect anyone else to come running to your aid because they won't. You have be prepared for some really uncomfortable feelings.

Dan Rubin
12-07-2017, 03:34 PM
For some reason almost eight weeks passed before anyone responded to the OP's post, and now ten weeks have passed with no further input from the OP. In her post she stated that her teacher "hits all the points" that describe a predator. I suspect that she had already made her decision, which was to succumb to her teacher's advances, and was looking for someone -- anyone -- to tell her that that would be OK. No one has. By now she has followed through on her decision. I feel sorry for her.

Riai Maori
12-09-2017, 12:44 AM
For some reason almost eight weeks passed before anyone responded to the OP's post, and now ten weeks have passed with no further input from the OP. In her post she stated that her teacher "hits all the points" that describe a predator. I suspect that she had already made her decision, which was to succumb to her teacher's advances, and was looking for someone -- anyone -- to tell her that that would be OK. No one has. By now she has followed through on her decision. I feel sorry for her.

I totally agree, but would feel sorry for her husband.

yes, a part of me wants him very much, even if it would just be sex,

pred op
12-09-2017, 03:30 PM
OP here.

The guest user comment submission takes entirely too long to be approved, hence the huge delay between my original post and replies and, well, now (assuming this will take some weeks to appear). But yes, by the time this was posted everything had run it's course. I've asked the original post to be removed due to too many identifying factors but as of yet it hasn't been.

For those wondering... I realized this situation as ultimately being a symptom of problems within my marriage and the inevitable course this was taking, separated with my husband, slept with my sensei (yes, in that order) and now I'm in the process of leaving the dojo. Maybe not the moral victory in the end everyone here was hoping for, but nonetheless what happened.

Dan Rubin
12-09-2017, 05:23 PM
You are aware of what happened, how it happened, and why it happened. That's an encouraging sign for the future.

lbb
12-10-2017, 05:59 PM
Maybe not the moral victory in the end everyone here was hoping for, but nonetheless what happened.

You're not accountable to us, though. I hope things go well for you.