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tim evans
08-22-2017, 11:54 PM
The title says it all. First off I've been studying since 2008 and I'm a 4 th kyu.injuries and just wanting to train have probaly helped lead me to this stale state I'm in so how do I approach getting back into Aikido again.

robin_jet_alt
08-23-2017, 12:12 AM
Slowly. Just take your time and do what you can. Most importantly, make sure you enjoy it. If you aren't enjoying it, you're probably doing something wrong and you'll want to re-evaluate what you are doing.

tim evans
08-23-2017, 08:32 AM
Truthfully,I'm still apprehensive about starting back.Endless kokidosa practice and tainohenko practice is how it started. I want a practical application to Aikido technique and wasn't satisfied with the training I was getting futhermore I was frustrated at the whole nage/uke narrative I would give honest attacks good energy and help nage practice his technique but when roles were reversed they would resist and correct me.give no energy in attacks .I just had enough at that point.Now when I start back I'm training for me health and fitness first then technique.

SeiserL
08-23-2017, 08:35 AM
IMHO, burn out (an injury) often comes from too much intensity and goal focus ...
If I really want to stay involved/connected over the long road, I tend to just enjoy the process (and people) and working on small refinements ... tends to actually make progression (not the focus) easier and faster ...

robin_jet_alt
08-23-2017, 04:49 PM
Truthfully,I'm still apprehensive about starting back.Endless kokidosa practice and tainohenko practice is how it started. I want a practical application to Aikido technique and wasn't satisfied with the training I was getting futhermore I was frustrated at the whole nage/uke narrative I would give honest attacks good energy and help nage practice his technique but when roles were reversed they would resist and correct me.give no energy in attacks .I just had enough at that point.Now when I start back I'm training for me health and fitness first then technique.

Slightly different to what I had envisioned. People will resist and correct you until you get good because they are helping. The thing with aikido is that it's hard. It's all very well to want honest attacks, etc., but they are only helpful if nage is able to actually do the technique. You said you were still a kyu rank? I suspect that you aren't as good as you think you are yet. Accept the correction and learn.

One thing that I find with beginners (yes, that is you) is that I will often move then to exactly where they need to be to execute the technique properly, and then they will complain about me "resisting" their technique because I didn't go exactly where they wanted. Is it resisting? I don't know... Once they get over their ego a bit, they tend to get good awfully fast when I do this, though.

Also, how do you expect to learn practical applications when you still can't do tai no henko properly?

tim evans
08-23-2017, 09:28 PM
Slightly different to what I had envisioned. People will resist and correct you until you get good because they are helping. The thing with aikido is that it's hard. It's all very well to want honest attacks, etc., but they are only helpful if nage is able to actually do the technique. You said you were still a kyu rank? I suspect that you aren't as good as you think you are yet. Accept the correction and learn.

One thing that I find with beginners (yes, that is you) is that I will often move then to exactly where they need to be to execute the technique properly, and then they will complain about me "resisting" their technique because I didn't go exactly where they wanted. Is it resisting? I don't know... Once they get over their ego a bit, they tend to get good awfully fast when I do this, though.

Also, how do you expect to learn practical applications when you still can't do tai no henko properly? All I did was give the reasons why I burnt out and yes countless hours of kokidosa and tainohenko will burn you out been down that road. Could I have tested for 3rd or even 2nd kyu by now probaly but with a demanding family and job that was my priority and to be honest I liked the training more than I cared about testing. I'm concentrating more on my physical conditioning and health when I start back

robin_jet_alt
08-23-2017, 11:11 PM
Well, my advice in my first comment stands for preventing burnout.

FWIW, I tested for 2kyu about 15 years ago, and since then I have done countless hours of kokyu-dosa and tai-no-henko. It has been good for me. I could not achieve any sort of practical applications without it.

tim evans
08-23-2017, 11:35 PM
The advice is much appreciated. People for the most part take kokidosa and tainohenko for granted.Maybe I'm there now and I plan on reexamining both exercises. I really like aikido and hope I get my enthusiasm back

lbb
08-24-2017, 08:11 AM
The advice is much appreciated. People for the most part take kokidosa and tainohenko for granted.Maybe I'm there now and I plan on reexamining both exercises. I really like aikido and hope I get my enthusiasm back

"Countless hours" is a subjective thing. If you feel that they were "countless" and you don't see the use of kokyudosa and tai no henko, then it's not a practice for you. Aikido isn't a practice where teachers will spend a lot of time trying to get their students to be enthusiastic. Is that wrong? I don't think so. At the end of the day, it's not a practice for everyone; it just isn't a good fit for some people. Why do you want to resume your practice?

tim evans
08-24-2017, 12:44 PM
i have been asking myself that very question for off and on over a year and still can't answer it.

nikyu62
08-24-2017, 04:38 PM
You didn't say (I think) if all of your training was at the same place, but if it has been, maybe a change of scenery and teachers would help.

tim evans
08-24-2017, 06:05 PM
You didn't say (I think) if all of your training was at the same place, but if it has been, maybe a change of scenery and teachers would help.

Unfortunately this is the only game in town. Its a great school,teachers are good I was just at a point I couldn't do it . I'm going back next week so hopefully it works out.

Janet Rosen
08-26-2017, 04:56 PM
Re tai no henko and kokyudosa
Those who come to aikido from explicitly kata-based arts will understand: this has nothing to do with the gross movements. It has to do with plumbing more and more deeply into the art by letting your body's knowledge of the form in question free you to explore...
Do it one day focused on breath.
Do it next day focused on weight shift.
Do it another day focused on center, or on up, or on down, or on......
If your partner is rushing through it too fast for you to do this, ask them to slow down. Make it your's, make it of value.

Peter Goldsbury
08-26-2017, 08:56 PM
Hello,

Janet Rosen's advice is very sound and I have some experience, for I began aikido in 1970 (I think).

I have never had burn out, but you mentioned injuries in your first post and I am curious about these. All the time I have been unable to practice has been due to injuries that occurred during aikido practice: damaged knees that have become arthritic as I have got older, and a right shoulder that has gone the same way. The knee injuries were caused by collisions on the mat and the shoulder injury occurred when I was at the bottom of a pile of ukes; I think the shihan was doing randori against three or four ukes. I had my knee injuries when I was 1st kyu and my should injury when I was 2nd or 3rd dan.

Many senior aikido teachers I have known (I am thinking of Japanese teachers of shihan level: 6th dan and upwards) had injuries and had to work round them. I also know that these injuries had causes similar to those of my own.

I have never had burn out and one reason was that I initially practised aikido along with cross-country running and the two went hand in hand. Cross-country running (25 miles: marathon length) is very unforgiving--far more than aikido, especially if you do it like I did, over uneven terrain.The one thing in common was breath control and this is also crucial in vigorous aikido training.
Another reason is that aikido training accompanied academic training and this meant regularly changing academic institutions and therefore changing dojos. The only dojo where I have trained longer than about five years is the dojo in Hiroshima, where I trained for about 25 years with the same shihan. I was a yudansha at the time and a foreigner to boot, so I was sometimes regarded as an interloper in a Japanese art. So I had to show sometimes that my Japanese colleagues took too much for granted.

One other point is that my Japanese teachers hardly ever explained what aikido was or what it was for. They simply took it for granted that it was an art, and therefore something that required training. They offered a model, a model of the possibilities that correct training afforded. I have seen by experience that this method works.

Best wishes,

tim evans
08-26-2017, 10:36 PM
Re tai no henko and kokyudosa
Those who come to aikido from explicitly kata-based arts will understand: this has nothing to do with the gross movements. It has to do with plumbing more and more deeply into the art by letting your body's knowledge of the form in question free you to explore...
Do it one day focused on breath.
Do it next day focused on weight shift.
Do it another day focused on center, or on up, or on down, or on......
If your partner is rushing through it too fast for you to do this, ask them to slow down. Make it your's, make it of value.
My biggest obstacle with tainohenko was relaxing my shoulder as I entered and tenkan and kokidosa my kokkyu power is ok just doing it kneeling feels awkward. Thanks for the advice

tim evans
08-26-2017, 10:53 PM
Hello,

Janet Rosen's advice is very sound and I have some experience, for I began aikido in 1970 (I think).

I have never had burn out, but you mentioned injuries in your first post and I am curious about these. All the time I have been unable to practice has been due to injuries that occurred during aikido practice: damaged knees that have become arthritic as I have got older, and a right shoulder that has gone the same way. The knee injuries were caused by collisions on the mat and the shoulder injury occurred when I was at the bottom of a pile of ukes; I think the shihan was doing randori against three or four ukes. I had my knee injuries when I was 1st kyu and my should injury when I was 2nd or 3rd dan.

Many senior aikido teachers I have known (I am thinking of Japanese teachers of shihan level: 6th dan and upwards) had injuries and had to work round them. I also know that these injuries had causes similar to those of my own.

I have never had burn out and one reason was that I initially practised aikido along with cross-country running and the two went hand in hand. Cross-country running (25 miles: marathon length) is very unforgiving--far more than aikido, especially if you do it like I did, over uneven terrain.The one thing in common was breath control and this is also crucial in vigorous aikido training.
Another reason is that aikido training accompanied academic training and this meant regularly changing academic institutions and therefore changing dojos. The only dojo where I have trained longer than about five years is the dojo in Hiroshima, where I trained for about 25 years with the same shihan. I was a yudansha at the time and a foreigner to boot, so I was sometimes regarded as an interloper in a Japanese art. So I had to show sometimes that my Japanese colleagues took too much for granted.

One other point is that my Japanese teachers hardly ever explained what aikido was or what it was for. They simply took it for granted that it was an art, and therefore something that required training. They offered a model, a model of the possibilities that correct training afforded. I have seen by experience that this method works.

Best wishes, Early on in my training it was strains and sprains and that's expected. My first major one was a broke toe from a yudansha who completed ushiro tebukitori shionage ura tenkaning on my foot accidentally off course.Then a torn rotator cuff injury from a yudansha who went way to fast for my ukemi to catch up again accidental. But here's the thing that makes me apprehensive Is people who have been doing aikido for years are getting new knees, hips,arthritis scrapped off there arches on there feet torn acl,back discs fused wrists reconstructed. I know we can't be 100 percent safe in classes over time but how is getting your body worked on all the time beneficial? Scares the hell out of me.

Peter Goldsbury
08-27-2017, 01:23 AM
Well, there is a cultural context to my previous remarks that might not have been fully understood.

In Japan, aikido is one of the few general martial arts that is not strictly age-related, in the sense that people of any age can practice it. This is not the case with competitive martial arts like sumo, where virtually no one trains beyond the age of around 30, or with judo, where competitive matches for men are organized according to the weight of the participants.

Traditional weapon-based arts are different, since they are very closely tied to the ethos of shu-ha-ri as a training dynamic, whereas participants in general weapon-based arts like kendo and naginata use body armour for a very good reason.

Since martial arts are such a deep part of Japanese culture and are taught from a very early age, I think that people approach an art like aikido with a pretty accurate idea of what to expect, including the ever-present possibility of injuries. Here, questions like whether aikido 'works' as a 'martial art' are hardly ever debated, since the general assumption is that it does, but, as with other martial arts, it demands a certain respect. Of course, the way in which a fit 20-year old and a 70-year old train are different and this is to be expected in a non-competitive art with no age restriction.

When I trained in the UK, I saw an example of what I think was burn-out in the dojo. The person involved stopped aikido and took up a different Japanese art, in this case, kendo. I knew the reasons for the burn-out and have tried to make sure that a similar situation does not arise in the dojos where I am the chief instructor. This necessitates knowing the strengths, and weaknesses, of the dojo members very well -- and I do not mean just at a physical level.

robin_jet_alt
08-27-2017, 02:36 AM
Early on in my training it was strains and sprains and that's expected. My first major one was a broke toe from a yudansha who completed ushiro tebukitori shionage ura tenkaning on my foot accidentally off course.Then a torn rotator cuff injury from a yudansha who went way to fast for my ukemi to catch up again accidental. But here's the thing that makes me apprehensive Is people who have been doing aikido for years are getting new knees, hips,arthritis scrapped off there arches on there feet torn acl,back discs fused wrists reconstructed. I know we can't be 100 percent safe in classes over time but how is getting your body worked on all the time beneficial? Scares the hell out of me.

Well, I've been training for nearly 17 years, and I have never had a major aikido-related injury. During that time, I've had torn muscles, snapped tendons, and broken bones, but none of it has been from aikido training. I've seen a few injuries, but I wouldn't call them common. Actually, in my experience they are less common than in other sports. Having said that, it depends on how you train and who you train with. There are some dojos where injuries are a lot more common.

By the way, from your use of terminology, it sounds like you are either training in the Ki Society, or a school that has roots in the Ki Society. Is that correct?

Janet Rosen
08-27-2017, 04:52 PM
My biggest obstacle with tainohenko was relaxing my shoulder as I entered and tenkan and kokidosa my kokkyu power is ok just doing it kneeling feels awkward. Thanks for the advice

I have not done kokyudosa kneeling, nor anything involving seiza, since my knee blow out in 2001.

For a couple of years I did it standing but found this did not teach the lessons inherent in kokyudosa. So I switched to doing it cross legged. AHA!

There is no better way to learn to distinguish between hips or pelvis and center than doing it cross-legged, essentially immobilizing hip joints and pelvis....all that's left is Ikeda Sensei's injunction to "move your insides" :)

JJF
08-28-2017, 04:50 AM
Burn-out is a strange thing. It is related to our general ability to handle life and learning-situations.

Kolb define our learning processes as a constant cycle. (EG https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/kolb-learning-styles-john-dsouza)

I personally find that to keep this cycle spinning around we need something to fuel each part. Currently I am fighting a lack of new input. I have been busy working and taking care of family matters. In some periods I can find inspiration from exporing some topic within my aikido, But I am looking for such a 'thing' now. So I need to make decisions based on this realization and therefore I am trying to free time to go to seminars and gather new inspiration.

As we grow this type of burn out is something we learn to handle. We seek out inspiration in the dojo, no the web, in other clubs, on seminars.

Another type is the 'post performance' burn-out. If people do a really great effort up to a seminar or a grading they may experiene a surge in enthusiasm afterwards. After our annual easter seminar people are always a little blue when comming back and the energy level is low.

And after a grading people also sometimes loose momentum as they have been working hard, and now realize that they actually haven't changed (in their own eyes) from being moved up a notch in ranking.

Handling these set-backs.. putting your nose to the grindstone even though inspiration is elusive.. that is the kind of 21st century skills (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_century_skills) that we need in a society where social media and goal oriented school systems provides the danger of instant gratification and short term planning. This is - in my opinion - one of the most important things to be learned from Aikido. Forget self-defence.. any guy with a gun will potentially render your training null and void in a flash.. No.. the ability to stick to something and allow for it to develop over time. And finding new ways of inspiring yourself to go that extra mile.. THAT is a price that is guaranteed to make your life better and easier.