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Aran Bright
05-02-2017, 10:08 PM
https://youtu.be/0KUXTC8g_pk

The most honest aikido video I have seen...ever. What character demonstrated by Rojas to be so honest and put his ego aside. Shows both the inadequate skills of Aikido in the ring, but the development of character to be so open and honest. Love it.

Riai Maori
05-03-2017, 12:06 AM
https://youtu.be/0KUXTC8g_pk

The most honest aikido video I have seen...ever. What character demonstrated by Rojas to be so honest and put his ego aside. Shows both the inadequate skills of Aikido in the ring, but the development of character to be so open and honest. Love it.

The most dishonest Aikido Video among many other I have seen...ever. The character admitted to be a non fighter Aikidoka and demonstrated HIS inadequate skills of Aikido in the ring against a semi professional MMA student. Its is not that Aikido does not work, but Rojas Aikido that did not work.:)

Demetrio Cereijo
05-03-2017, 05:47 AM
Interesting video.

rugwithlegs
05-03-2017, 10:32 AM
I watched it. Every chance for Hanmi handachi, he tries to turtle on his back. And his only definition of Aikido technique is grab the wrist. Our "champion" has a lot to learn.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-03-2017, 12:17 PM
. Our "champion" has a lot to learn.

For sure, but ... who is going to teach him how to do things right?

MrIggy
05-03-2017, 12:54 PM
Yet another example of an "instructor" who has never felt the severity of training. Over a decade of training and not a single atemi was given that day.

RonRagusa
05-03-2017, 01:55 PM
"Aikido V MMA in the ring"

Round peg in square hole. Waste of time and effort.

Ron

Demetrio Cereijo
05-03-2017, 02:14 PM
Didn't the guy in the clip used to post here?

Aran Bright
05-03-2017, 06:14 PM
The most dishonest Aikido Video among many other I have seen...ever. The character admitted to be a non fighter Aikidoka and demonstrated HIS inadequate skills of Aikido in the ring against a semi professional MMA student. Its is not that Aikido does not work, but Rojas Aikido that did not work.:)

I think I see your point, but dishonest? I don't think he lied or was misleading, that took massive character to do that and share it.

I have seen footage of his aikido, he is good. But clearly as an aikido only practitioner he was completely out of his depth with someone that had only a few years training in MMA, who did look pretty sharp.

Aran Bright
05-03-2017, 06:18 PM
"Aikido V MMA in the ring"

Round peg in square hole. Waste of time and effort.

Ron

Don't you think there is value being open about the fact that traditional aikido does not prepare you for someone trained in MMA?

Personally, I completely agree with your round peg square whole position, but I think there are a lot of people who are kidding themselves.

Ellis Amdur
05-04-2017, 12:10 AM
This is an interesting question, really. I just reread Douglas Walker's translation - three parts - on the life of Shirata Rinjiro. And a large part of that was taryu-shiai. And in another interview, published by Chris Li on the Sangenkai site, Kuroiwa Yoshio tells how all the uchi-deshi in the 1950's trained to take on dojo challenges, Kuroiwa's intention (besides boxing) being a koshinage dropping the guy on his head. I was at Kuroiwa sensei's house when a yakuza boss came to pay his respects, something he did once a year in memory of being dumped four times with that koshinage when Kuroiwa interrupted the yakuza (Momose, a 4th dan amateur sumo) from breaking up a friends dojo.
There was, in fact, (and probably still is) one or two deshi who are the designated minders of the school, and they handle any dojo challenges in the Aikikai.
It is fair to say that the ring has rules different from a free-fight, but if you flinch from blows in the ring, you will in the street.
Shirata sensei emphasized that beyond technique, irimi was the crucial element requisite to manage an assaultive individual. The young man in the video was back on his heels the entire time - he was catching - or trying to - attacks.
One of my most powerful aikido memories was the first time I took ukemi for Chiba Kazuo - his entry was so powerful that I was destabilized from that point on and never recovered. HIs technique, at that time, I thought was not that high a level (an observation of films over the years shows he continued to develop and refine his skill almost until his death, fwiw). but it was irrelevant, because his irimi was the most explosive and powerful I think I've ever experience in aikido. It is fair to say that Ueshiba Morihei's aikido, tori attacked. These days tori/nage - receives and then techniques. That's very different.

Walter Martindale
05-04-2017, 05:59 AM
From Ellis Amdur: HIs technique, at that time, I thought was not that high a level (an observation of films over the years shows he continued to develop and refine his skill almost until his death, fwiw). but it was irrelevant, because his irimi was the most explosive and powerful I think I've ever experience in aikido. It is fair to say that Ueshiba Morihei's aikido, tori attacked. These days tori/nage - receives and then techniques. That's very different.
End quote.

Two late sensei with whom I was familiar - Kawahara Yukio shihan and Izumi Hiroaki (Rocky) used to drill into us that Nage/Tori initiates... My interpretation was - enter - make an opening to prompt an attack where you want the other person to attack - apply technique when uke attacks that opening. (of course, be open to the possibility that uke will attack somewhere else...)

In the video, it looks like occasionally he tries to enter but always more "reactive" than "active"

phitruong
05-04-2017, 07:04 AM
i think we should have a standard response for threads such as this and others

aikido doesn't work in a fight
aikido doesn't work in the street
aikido doesn't work in the octagon
aikido doesn't work in the bathroom
aikido doesn't work in the donut and coffee shop
.....
ad nauseam

you can substitute aikido for other arts too.

the response should be "it's not the art. it's the man/woman/it!"

grondahl
05-04-2017, 07:17 AM
I think the video was very honest and one of the better, if not the best "aikido vs....." that I have seen. They are usually either videos of some sort of TMA practitioner being beaten up or aikido people demonstrating what they think are valid options for sparring on people taking nice ukemi.

Edit: Usually it looks like this: https://youtu.be/l0p9c56pkbs This a Yang tai chi chuan practitioners taking up a challenge.

MrIggy
05-04-2017, 08:31 AM
I have seen footage of his aikido, he is good. But clearly as an aikido only practitioner he was completely out of his depth with someone that had only a few years training in MMA, who did look pretty sharp.

I have also seen his footage, he has a black belt and looks like an orange belt. The mma guy doesn't have "only a few years of training", he has a decade of training in sambo, judo, boxing, Karate. The last 3 to 4 years he has been mixing everything he learned, basically doing mma. He has an enormous experience, like any decent mma fighter, in various arts not only and not mma for starters.

MrIggy
05-04-2017, 08:38 AM
Don't you think there is value being open about the fact that traditional aikido does not prepare you for someone trained in MMA?


Like i said, not mma, various other arts then mixing it all up aka "doing mma". As for Aikido, first you have to make a distinction of what is "traditional" Aikido, and what is not "traditional" Aikido. Also, not a single martial art will prepare you against people who train in mma. And when i say mma i mean have a firm grounding in one art and build upon that, like any decent mma fighter does.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-04-2017, 09:07 AM
the response should be "it's not the art. it's the man/woman/it!"
IMO it's both the art and the person doing it.

Ellis Amdur
05-04-2017, 03:49 PM
Shoji Nishio around 1984 - "Right from the start, the value of a Budo is determined by comparisons with other Budo.For the most part, if you set up Kokyu-ho between two Aikido people itís just useless. That will only be effective in the dojo...Even in other Budo, everybody is working hard, you know. When we see that we should make an effort to surpass them with our Aiki. That is the mission of Aikido as a Budo."

rugwithlegs
05-04-2017, 06:42 PM
IMO it's both the art and the person doing it.

I don't believe there is enough to say that the art is at fault, that would mean all Aikido leads to martially incompetent people. I do think Aikido grew so quickly that there was very little control in some areas as to what the art was or how it was taught, how it was disseminated. Some groups have different focuses on their training, and if everyone is honest about that then fine.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-05-2017, 06:01 AM
I don't believe there is enough to say that the art is at fault, that would mean all Aikido leads to martially incompetent people.

It's how the art and the person combine. If someone wants to become martially competent, he will find a way, if someone wants to appear martially competent, he will find a way too.

Some groups have different focuses on their training, and if everyone is honest about that then fine.
Of course.

Mary Eastland
05-05-2017, 09:35 AM
The operative word here is trying. One can't think about what to do....it must just be done.

Rather than take our aikido into the ring we can take our aikido into the world where it can truly help us and others.

WolFlow
05-05-2017, 01:31 PM
I made my own video about how to apply Aikido techniques against punches. Maybe you like it

https://youtu.be/0u4ck4Se4gk

MrIggy
05-07-2017, 02:22 AM
I made my own video about how to apply Aikido techniques against punches. Maybe you like it

https://youtu.be/0u4ck4Se4gk

You touched a vital issues. Guys like the one in the "Aikido v MMA" video don't learn how to move and use their body's. They don't understand the dynamics of fighting and then they get stuck not knowing what to do. It should be movement and positioning first then technique (be it a throw, projection, punch, kick, knee or headbutt), but again there is also a problem of strategy. If i was attacked by somebody with hitting and punching skills my first thought wouldn't be to use a control technique it would be to get him on the ground as fast as possible. The guy tries like beginner to get into a beginner position and even when he had the back of the mma guy he just slides right past him not doing anything. The whole problem is in the concept of how he was instructed, but again someone would expect him to at least do some basic research on his own.

Aran Bright
05-09-2017, 06:51 PM
This is an interesting question, really. I just reread Douglas Walker's translation - three parts - on the life of Shirata Rinjiro. And a large part of that was taryu-shiai. And in another interview, published by Chris Li on the Sangenkai site, Kuroiwa Yoshio tells how all the uchi-deshi in the 1950's trained to take on dojo challenges, Kuroiwa's intention (besides boxing) being a koshinage dropping the guy on his head. I was at Kuroiwa sensei's house when a yakuza boss came to pay his respects, something he did once a year in memory of being dumped four times with that koshinage when Kuroiwa interrupted the yakuza (Momose, a 4th dan amateur sumo) from breaking up a friends dojo.
There was, in fact, (and probably still is) one or two deshi who are the designated minders of the school, and they handle any dojo challenges in the Aikikai.
It is fair to say that the ring has rules different from a free-fight, but if you flinch from blows in the ring, you will in the street.
Shirata sensei emphasized that beyond technique, irimi was the crucial element requisite to manage an assaultive individual. The young man in the video was back on his heels the entire time - he was catching - or trying to - attacks.
One of my most powerful aikido memories was the first time I took ukemi for Chiba Kazuo - his entry was so powerful that I was destabilized from that point on and never recovered. HIs technique, at that time, I thought was not that high a level (an observation of films over the years shows he continued to develop and refine his skill almost until his death, fwiw). but it was irrelevant, because his irimi was the most explosive and powerful I think I've ever experience in aikido. It is fair to say that Ueshiba Morihei's aikido, tori attacked. These days tori/nage - receives and then techniques. That's very different.

Do you think a big part of this is that most of the uchi deshi had a significant background in other arts, be it, judo, karate, boxing, wrestling/sumo etc that they felt really comfortable with grappling/striking that they could use their aikido technique against a variety of attackes, not just the classical aiki strikes?

Ellis Amdur
05-10-2017, 03:34 AM
Do you think a big part of this is that most of the uchi deshi had a significant background in other arts, be it, judo, karate, boxing, wrestling/sumo etc that they felt really comfortable with grappling/striking that they could use their aikido technique against a variety of attackes, not just the classical aiki strikes?

Certainly, that was true for some of them - but I think there were others without any particular martial arts background who also became quite strong. For a couple of reasons:
1. Some people are natural born fighters, and figure out how to adapt things to fighting.
2. They were training a lot harder than most people do today
3. They thought about fighting a lot, and so, their aikido had that context in mind (read interviews with Kuroiwa Yoshio where he talks about all the uchi-deshi preparing for dojo yaburi.
4. They deliberately went out and fought (Terry Dobson told me that he was looking to get in a fight, because he was the only uchi-deshi at that time period who hadn't proved himself in street fights and therefore did not have condfidence in his aikido.
Ellis Amdur

phitruong
05-10-2017, 07:52 AM
a couple of comments then i will get on my iron horse and go for a plunder and pillage trip to the local donuts shop.

before folks start posting video about aikido and mma and such, please consider this,

1. aikido is 100% atemi. you hit first. you hit second. you hit now. you hit later. and when all said and done, you hit some more. and you continue to hit and not bother taking name. if you are not hitting uke with your body, then you use uke's body to hit the earth, tree, wall, table, car, bus, tank and other inanimate objects, preferably with some great amount of mass.

2. if uke doesn't respect your atemi, then you need to work on your atemi until they do, and proceed with #1 above

3. let uke knows that if he/she/it is in range to hit you, then he/she/it is also in range to be hit by you and proceed with #1 above.

4. if uke still doesn't respect your atemi, then proceed to run he/she/it over with your tank (always have a tank in handy, you never know when you would need it to fight through the buffet line) and don't forget to look both way before you run uke over, just in case you get run over by some old aikido dude in wheelchair. those buggers are vicious and dangerous as hell.

Tim Mailloux
05-10-2017, 03:58 PM
I completely agree with this, but the problem is how many aikidoka know how to REALLY hit? The vast majority of aikidoka I have trained with on the mat couldn't punch or kick their way out of a paper bag. I would gladly each one of their shots to close range, slam them on the ground and choke them out.

a couple of comments then i will get on my iron horse and go for a plunder and pillage trip to the local donuts shop.

before folks start posting video about aikido and mma and such, please consider this,

1. aikido is 100% atemi. you hit first. you hit second. you hit now. you hit later. and when all said and done, you hit some more. and you continue to hit and not bother taking name. if you are not hitting uke with your body, then you use uke's body to hit the earth, tree, wall, table, car, bus, tank and other inanimate objects, preferably with some great amount of mass.

2. if uke doesn't respect your atemi, then you need to work on your atemi until they do, and proceed with #1 above

3. let uke knows that if he/she/it is in range to hit you, then he/she/it is also in range to be hit by you and proceed with #1 above.

4. if uke still doesn't respect your atemi, then proceed to run he/she/it over with your tank (always have a tank in handy, you never know when you would need it to fight through the buffet line) and don't forget to look both way before you run uke over, just in case you get run over by some old aikido dude in wheelchair. those buggers are vicious and dangerous as hell.