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akiy
04-29-2017, 07:34 PM
NxD7C-Jounw

Here's an Aikido video clip of Jenny Flower (6th dan, Aikido of Athens) teaching an "iriminage dropdown" at Brooklyn Aikikai in December, 2014.

From her website (http://www.athensaikido.gr): Jenny Flower is chief instructor of Athens Aikido. She began her training in Norwich, England in 1989 before moving to San Diego two years later to train under T. K. Chiba Shihan for three years in the Kenshusei program living for one year as Uchideshi at San Diego Aikikai. During this time she was also fortunate to train extensively under M. Murashige Shihan who she considers to be an important teacher for her. In 1997 she moved to Greece and founded and ran Athens Aikikai for nearly ten years before establishing Athens Aikido in 2008. She currently holds the rank of 6th degree black belt and is a Birankai International certified instructor (Shidoin). She is Chairman of the Hellenic Birankai Teaching Committee.

What are your thoughts on this video?

-- Jun

asiawide
04-30-2017, 01:27 AM
Sitting down on floor is best and easiest way to use the weight of body. But it's quite 'ouch' if it's done out of mats. We need to learn how to drop weight down without drop body down.

rugwithlegs
04-30-2017, 11:28 AM
Flowers sensei does the movement well.

I have done this before with Peter Bernath. I've come to think of it as a type of henkawaza - nage is doing an ushiro ate and uke knocks nage off balance. It is important that we be able to cleanly transition between our tachiwaza and suwariwaza, and this is a valid practice. Not a favorite after some knee issues.

If I was dropping to throw, these days I would rather time it to use uke as a cushion for my knees. In Eli Yoshikawa's Musashi, he describes someone being thrown like this and the skull shattering on a rock on the ground. That's maybe closer to the real application.

I tend to not emphasize this pin. I use two hands to control one of uke's limbs. I cannot disengage from uke without first breaking the arm or choking uke or damaging the neck in some way. Many of our face up pins seem to be about getting in a kill shot rather than a control? But very classical.

In FB land someone said it depended on uke holding on - I have seen this done with nage holding the elbow or holding in a gyaku kotegaeshi grip or a version of sankyo. The shoulder gets damaged if nage doesn't let go.

It is a very clean, solid, smooth demo. I had a friend in Greece last year, I'll have to ask if he trained with her.

PeteDiscenza
04-30-2017, 12:25 PM
This resembles the 'kesa (scarf version)' of iriminage. As uke I'd have some issues with the ukemi, which several times involved first mat contact with the shoulder. This would be pretty dangerous for those of us with previous injuries or us old folks with some wear & tear. 'On the street' this might end an encounter but I'd like to continue practicing w/o rehab in the dojo.

observer
04-30-2017, 02:41 PM
From my point of view, this presentation and thousands of others on youtube indicate a lack of understanding of what aikido is about. It is clear that the effectiveness of aikido as a martial art has been lost forever. It was replaced by preparation for a spectacular show. I really don't mind. Unfortunately what is really wrong that everywhere aikido today is presented as a modern martial art. It creates an illusion that aikido is a proper tool for self-defense. It is not. By the way, talking about my point of view (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24472), I presented a while ago, nobody even started a serious discussion. I am ready to defend any sentence in that post. I think is time and important to talk about aikido we already lost.

Riai Maori
04-30-2017, 07:26 PM
From my point of view, this presentation and thousands of others on youtube indicate a lack of understanding of what aikido is about. It is clear that the effectiveness of aikido as a martial art has been lost forever. It was replaced by preparation for a spectacular show. I really don't mind. Unfortunately what is really wrong that everywhere aikido today is presented as a modern martial art. It creates an illusion that aikido is a proper tool for self-defense. It is not. By the way, talking about my point of view (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24472), I presented a while ago, nobody even started a serious discussion. I am ready to defend any sentence in that post. I think is time and important to talk about aikido we already lost.

I agree with your above comment and applaud you being so brave in your other thread. Aikido is not self defense, but just a tool that you may find helpful in an unfortunate situation. I am proficient in other forms of unarmed combat that complements my current Aikido. :cool:

phitruong
05-01-2017, 07:37 AM
always curious about the whole idea of dropping uke down, then haul them up again to throw. seem like a lot of work. i thought aikido is the lazy man martial arts. did i get the bill of goods here? i tell ya, you just can't trust people in skirts.

lbb
05-01-2017, 08:18 AM
always curious about the whole idea of dropping uke down, then haul them up again to throw. seem like a lot of work. i thought aikido is the lazy man martial arts. did i get the bill of goods here? i tell ya, you just can't trust people in skirts.

Not hauling up. Letting them get up. There's a difference.

rugwithlegs
05-01-2017, 10:13 AM
always curious about the whole idea of dropping uke down, then haul them up again to throw. seem like a lot of work.

Throw 'em hard enough that the skull bounces off the floor, then go with the energy. Not every uke likes to practice that way - at least not for more than a couple of throws.

sorokod
05-01-2017, 10:38 AM
Not hauling up. Letting them get up.

Why?

phitruong
05-01-2017, 11:13 AM
Why?

you jumped the line and asked before i got the chance. ya, i was wondering about why would i want to get up. i have a mental video of me doing that to a bjj guy/gal/it and as he/she/it drop then spun in ward, then proceed to wrap me up like a christmas turkey, 30 ways to monday and twice on sunday. and i like christmas turkey, but i wouldn't want to do that to myself. although, i like stuffing more than the turkey though. damn! i get hungry talking about aikido!

ramenboy
05-01-2017, 12:23 PM
the goal of uke is to stay connected and commited to the attach throught the whole movement

you notice uke's hand is still attached to nage even after the shomenuchi strike

uke is not dead after the initial strike.

rugwithlegs
05-01-2017, 08:39 PM
Why?

I tend to regard this movement as a henkawaza. The initial cutdown can certainly finish the fight, but sometimes not.

I remember a dojo I was at for a year that insisted they didn't feel the need to get up. The one guy "proved his point" by going to the ground in a semifetal position and leaving his face a perfect target for my knees and feet. He was trying to "show a more realistic response." I wasn't convinced.

Riai Maori
05-01-2017, 11:36 PM
Once Uke has been taken to ground, the world is your oyster. And I love oysters.

sorokod
05-02-2017, 04:34 AM
I tend to regard this movement as a henkawaza. The initial cutdown can certainly finish the fight, but sometimes not.

Outside of you personal opinion, is it being taught as a henka? If a henka is needed after the first take down why not after the second?

If we go down the "sometimes not" path, will not atemi be a more reasonable solution?

Walter Martindale
05-02-2017, 05:43 AM
Once Uke has been taken to ground, the world is your oyster. And I love oysters.

Especially oysters from Bluff...:D

rugwithlegs
05-02-2017, 06:06 AM
Outside of you personal opinion, is it being taught as a henka? If a henka is needed after the first take down why not after the second?

If we go down the "sometimes not" path, will not atemi be a more reasonable solution?

It is how I've had to regard any technique with more than one movement. Tsuki uchi kaitenage contains about 30 some separate finishing options. If I do it in randori, I never finish the entire technique.

While we call it iriminage, other Aikido styles would indeed call it aigamaeate, the second atemi waza.

phitruong
05-02-2017, 06:24 AM
the goal of uke is to stay connected and commited to the attach throught the whole movement


why would that be the goal of uke? what possible reason that uke wants to stay connected or even committed to the attach after the attack delivered? although, i have encountered a few aikido folks who should be committed, on second thought, maybe even third thought i think i should be committed. :D

phitruong
05-02-2017, 06:27 AM
Once Uke has been taken to ground, the world is your oyster. And I love oysters.

unless uke versed in BJJ, then the world is his/her/it shrimp or possibly crayfish or squid. i like those deep fried baby octopus.

lbb
05-02-2017, 07:26 AM
Why?

Why what? Why would they want to get up, or why would you let them up? They'd want to get up because otherwise they're lying face down in front of you and it's only the goodness of your heart that saves their kidneys a kicking. You'd want to let them up, perhaps, if you didn't actually have them in a pin, if they were big and strong and had at least one knee under them, and you didn't want to get into a wrestling match trying to keep them down.

In terms of practice, you should not be "hauling them up". Simple as that.

sorokod
05-02-2017, 07:57 AM
Why what? Why would they want to get up, or why would you let them up? They'd want to get up because otherwise they're lying face down in front of you and it's only the goodness of your heart that saves their kidneys a kicking. You'd want to let them up, perhaps, if you didn't actually have them in a pin, if they were big and strong and had at least one knee under them, and you didn't want to get into a wrestling match trying to keep them down.

In terms of practice, you should not be "hauling them up". Simple as that.

Perhaps I am over rationalizing, but seems to me you have a contradiction, paraphrasing your answer:

They get up because it is advantageous for them to do so
You let them get up because it is advantageous for you to do so.


In addition you didn't want to get into a wrestling match trying to keep them down wouldn't atemi (kidney, neck, temple ...) be a sensible thing to do in this case?

lbb
05-02-2017, 09:10 AM
Perhaps I am over rationalizing, but seems to me you have a contradiction, paraphrasing your answer:

They get up because it is advantageous for them to do so
You let them get up because it is advantageous for you to do so.


In addition wouldn't atemi (kidney, neck, temple ...) be a sensible thing to do in this case?

I'd say you're overthinking this; I'm not sure what "over rationalizing" is. It seems simple enough:

1)they try to get up because they believe it is advantageous for them to do so, or at least, better than their current situation.
2)you let them get up because you think it's preferable to trying to force them down with brute strength, given that you do not have a pin.

Note the difference between what I said and what you said.

Hilary
05-02-2017, 11:16 AM
... third thought i think i should be committed. :D

I thought this was common knowledge. :D

sorokod
05-02-2017, 04:34 PM
I'd say you're overthinking this; I'm not sure what "over rationalizing" is. It seems simple enough:

1)they try to get up because they believe it is advantageous for them to do so, or at least, better than their current situation.
2)you let them get up because you think it's preferable to trying to force them down with brute strength, given that you do not have a pin.

Note the difference between what I said and what you said.

Well, you have "believe" vs "think" and "advantageous" vs "preferable" but beyond that, the scenario is rooted in a misunderstanding between tori and uke.

sorokod
05-02-2017, 04:35 PM
While we call it iriminage, other Aikido styles would indeed call it aigamaeate, the second atemi waza.

Not a henka then?

rugwithlegs
05-02-2017, 10:00 PM
Not a henka then?

The first piece would be a modified ushiro ate, the second the aigamaeate. Like you've been saying, the first part gets him down and can be a finishing move in and of itself. Of course I'm an Aikikai student who might have the names all wrong and this whole idea of a multiple movement technique containing several techniques is a personal approach like you noted before. If a technique takes longer than a split second, uke usually did something making it necessary.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-03-2017, 05:53 AM
Why?

Because both uke and tori have a role to play.

MRoh
05-03-2017, 07:39 AM
The first piece would be a modified ushiro ate, the second the aigamaeate.

Is aigamae ate a defined technique?
In this Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEbhd4y5txI
I see different versions of aigamae ate. it seems to be an atemi technique that is applied in different waza.
They also partly consist of two pieces, in 1.10 you see a version with bringing uke down at first, the first one at the beginning of the video is ikkyo, then irimi nage.
Others I would call tenchi-nage, or just irimi nage.

The difference here is that uke is not taken down with a cutting movement, more torn down by grabbing his neck.
Control is much better in the Jenny Flower version.

sorokod
05-03-2017, 08:12 AM
Because both uke and tori have a role to play.

That is always the case in form based training. Can you say a bit more about the roles you see in the video?

Demetrio Cereijo
05-03-2017, 09:23 AM
IMO uke plays the role of an attacker who leaves a big opening so his back can be taken and tori plays the role of a defender who is unable to fully exploit uke's mistake and has to wait for uke to make a second mistake.

lbb
05-04-2017, 07:07 AM
Well, you have "believe" vs "think" and "advantageous" vs "preferable" but beyond that, the scenario is rooted in a misunderstanding between tori and uke.

No, you said that they get up because it is advantageous for them to do so; I said that they get up because they believe (or think, doesn't make any difference) that it is advantageous to do so. I may think there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow; doesn't make it so.

sorokod
05-04-2017, 08:32 AM
No, you said that they get up because it is advantageous for them to do so; I said that they get up because they believe (or think, doesn't make any difference) that it is advantageous to do so. I may think there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow; doesn't make it so.

Regardless, in the scenario you described, uke and tori can't be both correct at the same time. The form is based on a misunderstanding.

MRoh
05-04-2017, 08:36 AM
I would say it's just a training agreement, nothing else.
Uke has some work to do.

sorokod
05-04-2017, 09:04 AM
I would say it's just a training agreement, nothing else.
Uke has some work to do.

Sure, that is what form based training is. The participants enact a scenario and everyone has a role to play. It this case the scenario makes no sense.

MRoh
05-04-2017, 09:21 AM
Maybe Jenny Flowers could tell us what sense it makes for her.
I don't like the movement very much, because there is danger for ukes shoulder or ellbow. I wouldn't like to be smashed on my shoulder in that way.

rugwithlegs
05-04-2017, 09:38 AM
So this is why I give myself permission to break larger movements into identifiable smaller ones. I give it a context to make sense. For me, that usually means a string of henka. This style of iriminage has a different name in Ki Aikido for the start, but I don't remember what the name is. Uke turns/gets turned and doesn't land back of the skull first. Then palm strike to the face as they attack again, then palm strike a second time while breaking the elbow. Ushiro ate, aigameate, gyaku gameate or use another name. But I don't see it as one solo idea.