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MrIggy
03-29-2017, 06:55 PM
http://ikazuchi.com/2017/03/28/the-future-of-aikido/

One would think with all the bad rep "modern" Aikido is getting people would be happy it's "dying".

Aran Bright
03-29-2017, 07:48 PM
I was really touched by this video. I recently started BJJ, not because of any dislike of Aikido, but because I wanted to do BJJ. Roy's style of BJJ is just magical, and very effective. If we are to touch on the "effectiveness" of Aikido, I believe this is only because cross training is pretty rare amongst Aikidoka. If you are pretty used to striking and grappling, then Aikido techniques can be used no problem. But this is generally not a goal for Aikidoka, so no problem there.

But the public's views of Aikido and the way Aikidoka see the public's view of Aikido is a problem, one that Roy has stepped up to address. Good on him.

I for one would love to see him on the Joe Rogan Podcast.

Respect to the memory of Stanley Pranin.

Cass
03-30-2017, 04:59 AM
Disclosure that I'm still new-ish to Aikido, but that also means I remember very clearly how it was for me with finding and deciding to undertake Aikido.

Every time Aikido is spoken about "effectiveness" always comes up, it is an endlessly recurring topic which honestly I don't really understand. If you want to destroy someone in a fight then you do not come to Aikido, period. Aikido fills a specific niche combining budo, limited self defense, exercise and learning how to fall safely. There is not another martial art exactly like it and trying to become more like BJJ or Judo or any other martial art to be able to compete in MMA seems foolish to me, imagine if you read the same discussion on a Tai Chi forum. What I would say is that Aikido is not adapting well to the modern market because we do not, as a whole, sell ourselves on appropriate merits. I have seen many videos showing how you will "become samurai" or a guy doing randori on the street as if it is reality. These are things that make people think the art is a joke and "ineffective", because of attempted claims of being situationally viable. What I have not seen? Advertising of how Aikido can expand your social circle, improve your balance, stamina, fludity, flexibility, patience, help overcome depression, give you insight into Japanese culture. In the first years that I became an expat, my health was declining, I had zero social circle, was clumsy, no job, minimal hobbies, bored and my mental health started to decline. I had only a vague interest in Asian culture but if I had known or heard that Aikido could, potentially, fix all of those issues at once? Hell! I deeply regret that I didn't find it back then when I truly needed it.

So we do not play to our strengths and instead focus on our weaknesses and constantly try to "change" how Aikido is. That is why there are so many different offshoots and Aikido is very divided because of it - to be honest there are some styles that if I saw that when I was looking at if I wanted to do it then I might not have even started myself. I was not even convinced before I went to watch a class at my current dojo (online comments were offputting). Making more styles (because never will the entire art conform) will not help. What I would do if I could? Encourage videos showing the camaraderie and bonding that happens among Aikido groups - so your dojo is taking a trip to Japan? Record the best bits, the laughs, not endless irimi nage but the family that you have become. Or make a deal with mental health clinics, advertise that you do a 2-months-free membership for those that are referred from there - in a subtle way, of course. Or perhaps make a charity "Aikido Against Depression" or similar to bring Aikido to those that could truly benefit from it - this could even be another health issue, I have seen and heard of Aikidoka in wheelchairs after all. Do demonstrations at schools, talk about what Aikido's purpose is (to you) and then show them the most impressive "wow!" moves you can and make sure your ukes are having fun too.

Genuine, non-advertising documentaries about Aikido would be great, I have seen maybe 3-4 of these existing at all and they are of varying quality. Yet thousands of videos of demos and hundreds of books, which honestly have limited use for someone thinking about starting Aikido. Movies involving Aikido would be great too, but that is a great deal harder - the closest recent and good movie to Aikido that I have seen is "The Last Samurai" and still, it's not Aikido. These things all make little differences and yes, mostly they will just get you a few more members, but without expansion then yes, Aikido will continue "dying". Some kind of unification of all the different schools and united effort to try something new and modern together is necessary, but I have no idea how you would go about that. The hard part of all of this is united change, Aikido is so far split and in disagreement over, well, anything that getting everyone to agree to take a new approach - either in style, marketing, whatever - is next to impossible.

grondahl
03-30-2017, 05:41 AM
FYI: There are exactly the same discussions on forums for tai chi and other traditional arts.

Demetrio Cereijo
03-30-2017, 07:14 AM
One would think with all the bad rep "modern" Aikido is getting people would be happy it's "dying".

Aikido is not dying, Aikido is being killed by aikidoka themselves.

MattMiddleton
03-30-2017, 07:33 AM
Aikido is not dying, Aikido is being killed by aikidoka themselves.

How so?

Alec Corper
03-30-2017, 07:47 AM
Aikido is not dying, Aikido is being killed by aikidoka themselves.

So are you here to help with the funeral, are you a mourner, a pall bearer, or are you hanging on for the resurrection?

Demetrio Cereijo
03-30-2017, 09:10 AM
How so?

Politics, poor training methods, poor teaching methods, pseudo-philosophical ramblings, cultish behaviors, abusive behaviors, sub-par martial performance... the list would be too long.

Demetrio Cereijo
03-30-2017, 09:14 AM
So are you here to help with the funeral, are you a mourner, a pall bearer, or are you hanging on for the resurrection?

It saddens me to see Aikido going down. It is an art with a great potential, both martial and self developement.

Demetrio Cereijo
03-30-2017, 09:18 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9W4Khn078w

Also, I believe this is the Joe Rogan episode article in OP refers to.

MrIggy
03-30-2017, 09:44 AM
How so?

Plain and simple, most of them don't train it as a martial art.

Alec Corper
03-30-2017, 09:57 AM
It saddens me to see Aikido going down. It is an art with a great potential, both martial and self developement.

So you help the process by what, humorous digs, sarcasm, sideline expertise? i think you are probably a serious martial artist but I doubt we will meet, so i have no clue. have you got a fight record, do you roll in BJJ competitions? I have students who are police offers, security guys, BJJ competitors, ex-judo players. Please stop spreading the brush so wide at every godamned opportunity:(

MrIggy
Quote:
Matthew Middleton wrote: View Post
How so?
Plain and simple, most of them don't train it as a martial art.

And you know this after how long training? I know plenty of people who train it as a martial art. I have also seen quite a few doing poor ju jitsu calling it aikido. The techniques in aikido are simply not unique to aikido and you can apply them ( and people do ) in silat, panatukan, krav maga, kapap, okinawate, and so on. That doesn't make it aikido. I also know guys who are just really good street fighters, they would take apart most martial artists. So what exactly do you want?

Demetrio Cereijo
03-30-2017, 10:33 AM
So you help the process by what, humorous digs, sarcasm, sideline expertise?
Don't look at me as the cause of Aikido's lost of popularity. Maybe you should look at these people who after decades of training and achieving high ranks were shown how their Aikido was empty of aiki, devoid of martial viability but full of Chopra like new-age platitudes, orientalist bullshit and poor dancing disguised as budo.

i think you are probably a serious martial artist but I doubt we will meet, so i have no clue. have you got a fight record, do you roll in BJJ competitions?
I competed in TKD -WTF ruleset- back in the 80's-90's. I don't compete in BJJ events.

I have students who are police offers, security guys, BJJ competitors, ex-judo players.
And I have and had the same kind of training partners, what's your point?

Please stop spreading the brush so wide at every godamned opportunity:(

Why?

MattMiddleton
03-30-2017, 11:12 AM
I can't really speak to what's happening elsewhere, but at least in my tiny corner of the world, there seems to be a bit of an uptick in popularity. That being said, it seems like there's a bit of ebb and flow there - we've had good years and bad, in terms of enrollment. While I'm certain none of the various organizations would like to give out stats with regards to enrollment, I think that having that data would help us all in terms of understanding what (if any) problem there is on that front.

As for politics, all social groups of any reasonable size trying to do the "same" thing are going to end up with politics of some kind or another. Why would Aikido be any different? The main thing, IMO, is to try and minimize the negative impact of those politics on bystanders. Not always easy, sometimes not even possible, but a useful goal.

With regards to the martial effectiveness, I suppose I can't really comment. I've only ever practiced Aikido, and have been fortunate enough to work with a variety of teachers. Some of those teachers talked about philosophy and energy, while others focused on the more "hard" aspects of Aikido. In my view, there is value in both, and indeed a time for both. If the only way to "save" Aikido is to make it a hard-only art, I'd be looking for something else myself. I've gotten a lot from all my teachers.

When it comes to training and teaching, this is something I'm quite interested in. While I don't teach Aikido, I'm very curious to study how different teachers do their thing, and what effects it has on their students. I'd love to know more about where things are lacking in the training/teaching side of things. It's helpful to understand the bad habits as well as the good ones :)

MrIggy
03-30-2017, 11:54 AM
And you know this after how long training?

3 years of official training, 3 years of sporadic training, friendly sparring, meeting people from various dojos's from my country and from abroad on seminars.

I know plenty of people who train it as a martial art.

Define plenty?

The techniques in aikido are simply not unique to aikido and you can apply them ( and people do ) in silat, panatukan, krav maga, kapap, okinawate, and so on. That doesn't make it aikido.

Yes i know that certain techniques are not unique to Aikido but also certain techniques in those arts have been taken directly from Aikido just as much as certain Japanese martial arts have taken techniques directly from other Asian (and western) martial arts. In some instances it does more harm then good.

I also know guys who are just really good street fighters, they would take apart most martial artists. So what exactly do you want?

Like i said most people don't train Aikido as a martial art, the problem however isn't in them, it's in the instructors that tolerate that mentality. When a guy from a certain dojo, who has an official black belt, gets slapped around by some idiot on the street and doesn't fight back at all because he froze from fear then they have a serious issue in that dojo and unfortunately that type of issues isn't unique to that one dojo. I also know a couple of guys, street fighters, who would take apart most martial artist, but i also know that all of those martial artist are on the low level (rank) of training, while the problem in Aikido is, like i stated above, that such incompetence is tolerated to a high degree and even awarded an official Dan rank. What i want is to make a clear distinction between competence and incompetence. That's all.

ramenboy
03-30-2017, 01:09 PM
i remember chiba sensei saying that aikido is a beautiful art, but we can't forget that its a 'martial' art.

i think it depends on what the practitioner wants to get out of it. better movement? health? martial effectiveness? coordination?

not everyone comes to aikido for the same reasons, and i have to admit i still struggle with that.

do people want to continue doing aikido exactly the way their teacher says o-sensei did it? or have we reached the the stage of ''ri' where you can finally make aikido 'your own?'

hard to say how much aikido is 'dying' if we can't agree on a universal explanation of what aikido is.

philipsmith
03-30-2017, 01:17 PM
OK so I've been involved in Aikido for nearly 50 years now. There has never been a simple definition of what it is and it's popularity has ebbed & flowed many times.

I am confident it will survive - but I am aware it is a very broad church. For me it remains a martial art but for some of my close friends it's anything but. I'm fine with that as long as my students retain that martial awareness and effectiveness.

Let's just accept our differences and train.

Rupert Atkinson
03-30-2017, 01:52 PM
The future of Aikido is buried in the past yet hidden in plain sight.

Aikido is The Way of Aiki.

It's right there in the name. When people wake up to that simple fact, they will have new direction.

But everyone (99%) is rejecting it because they can't do it.

Think: Monks don't reject Buddhism because they don't 'get it'. Some, many perhaps, never attain their enlightenment. But they continue their search ... it is a search. But modern man wants 'it' explained in a syllabus. Actually, it is possible because aiki is a physical result of physical training.

Ikkyo as waza is no different to ippon-seoinage.

If you are not actively searching for aiki then you are not an Aikidoka.

MRoh
03-31-2017, 09:19 AM
Like i said most people don't train Aikido as a martial art

And you do? And how do you prove?

SeiserL
03-31-2017, 02:46 PM
I would have to admit that I think that Aikido as an effective martial art (like Tai Chi) is dying or already dead. Like the normal bell-shaped distribution curve or the story of blind men describing different parts of an elephant, perhaps many things depend on the perspective/intent by which one studies Aikido. The point being it may not be if Aikido is dying, but is your practice living and growing?

rugwithlegs
03-31-2017, 05:23 PM
https://shakiaharris.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/rickson-gracie-says-mma-sets-a-bad-example-for-young-people-and-it-only-attracts-people-who-like-barbarianism-and-all-that-blood/

A Gracie family champion on MMA and what it has done for his family's art. his comments resonate for me as an Aikido student.

rugwithlegs
03-31-2017, 05:40 PM
Interesting counter arguement to those who say MMA training is real combat, and that Aikido has nothing to do with combat.

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-happened-when-ufc-fighters-took-on-marine-corps-martial-arts-experts-2015-8

Of course, I would not do well against these fighters either. Respect.

Demetrio Cereijo
03-31-2017, 05:55 PM
Interesting counter arguement to those who say MMA training is real combat, and that Aikido has nothing to do with combat.
I think I'm missing something. Do you mean Aikido practitioners would have fared better than the MMA players in that environment?

rugwithlegs
03-31-2017, 06:02 PM
I think I'm missing something. Do you mean Aikido practitioners would have fared better than the MMA players in that environment?

I clearly said I would not fair better. But, weapons work bearing some resemblance to jodori and kumijo, two on one, some recognizable tantodori.

More that I keep getting told that for Aikido to be more realistic and more combat ready, we need to imitate MMA. MMA is not the pinnacle or an undefeatable combat art.

If we want to be more combat ready, maybe MMA is not the art we should compare ourselves to.

Demetrio Cereijo
03-31-2017, 06:15 PM
If we want to be more combat ready, maybe MMA is not the art we should compare ourselves to.
I agree with you on this. IMO is with arts developed in armed cultures where Aikido sould be compared, for instance with Filipino Martial Arts like in this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjAkbQb6axU

MrIggy
03-31-2017, 07:31 PM
And you do? And how do you prove?

Currently, no. Prove what?

MrIggy
03-31-2017, 07:53 PM
https://shakiaharris.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/rickson-gracie-says-mma-sets-a-bad-example-for-young-people-and-it-only-attracts-people-who-like-barbarianism-and-all-that-blood/

A Gracie family champion on MMA and what it has done for his family's art. his comments resonate for me as an Aikido student.

Talk about hypocrisy, but OK. "Gracie" and "honor" in the same sentence, it's almost like an oxymoron.

MrIggy
03-31-2017, 08:41 PM
More that I keep getting told that for Aikido to be more realistic and more combat ready, we need to imitate MMA. MMA is not the pinnacle or an undefeatable combat art.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGbh7xJIrio - just show them this video and the one above with the marines.

The problem is that people look at martial arts as combat sports so they think that MMA is the "ultimate thing" when in fact it's just another activity that if it's taken out of context can have serious consequences. This guy explains the Falcao incident very clearly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6IKBsjbfGw .

Just the same as people scream WWE is fake and yet if one those WWE guys came out and grabbed an ordinary person and slammed them with a suplex they would most likely seriously hurt them of even kill them.

crbateman
04-01-2017, 08:26 PM
I think that many of Aikido's "struggles" stem from a diminishing interest on the part of many (mostly younger) instructors in maintaining a connection to the Founder. I see so many dojos where they bow to his picture to begin and end each class, but not one word in between about his vision, philosophies, training methods, evolution, etc. The fact is that each succeeding generation of aikidoka see less and less of what Aikido was intended to be by those who developed it. This lack of transmission will eventually make the practice unrecognizable, unless there develops a trend to "get back to the source".

Peter Goldsbury
04-01-2017, 08:45 PM
I think that many of Aikido's "struggles" stem from a diminishing interest on the part of many (mostly younger) instructors in maintaining a connection to the Founder. I see so many dojos where they bow to his picture to begin and end each class, but not one word in between about his vision, philosophies, training methods, evolution, etc. The fact is that each succeeding generation of aikidoka see less and less of what Aikido was intended to be by those who developed it. This lack of transmission will eventually make the practice unrecognizable, unless there develops a trend to "get back to the source".

Hello Clark,

I recommend for your attention any studies you can find in English on the iemoto system. This was a system of adapting the art to changing circumstances, while at the same time maintaining a recognized and authentic lineage. There is no evidence that Morihei Ueshiba saw the art of aikido in these terms, and I know from direct conversations with him that Kisshomaru Ueshiba certainly did not. However, the present Doshu does think in these terms.

A Japanese scholar named Nishiyama Matsunosuke has written much on the iemoto system, but I do not know whether any of this is in English.

Best wishes,

PAG

Alec Corper
04-02-2017, 03:25 AM
Helllo Peter,
I seem to remember a conversation with you in which you recounted some comments from Tada sensei. If I have it right he was asked who would continue his line of aikido when he was gone to which he replied, "No one, it's my aikido, no one else can do what I do. They ( whoever come next to take up the mantle) will have to do their aikido.
[[/B][ /I]Further, respectfully to Mr .Bateman, I would argue that most of the original deshi. did not understand O Sensei's vision, philosophies or technical principles. They all took bits, like the blind men and the elephant, and developed it further away from whatever it was.Of course, O Sensei did the same when he changed Takeda's DaitoRyu, adding some Kashima, possibly Katori Shintoryu, mixed in Omoto and some Chinese numerology, and voila , Aikido
This conversation is endless since nobody can define aikido and gain a consensus. Whio is doing "real" aikido? Uh, I don't know what aikido is so the "real" thing??

Peter Goldsbury
04-02-2017, 05:06 AM
Helllo Peter,
I seem to remember a conversation with you in which you recounted some comments from Tada sensei. If I have it right he was asked who would continue his line of aikido when he was gone to which he replied, "No one, it's my aikido, no one else can do what I do. They ( whoever come next to take up the mantle) will have to do their aikido.
[[/B][ /I]Further, respectfully to Mr .Bateman, I would argue that most of the original deshi. did not understand O Sensei's vision, philosophies or technical principles. They all took bits, like the blind men and the elephant, and developed it further away from whatever it was.Of course, O Sensei did the same when he changed Takeda's DaitoRyu, adding some Kashima, possibly Katori Shintoryu, mixed in Omoto and some Chinese numerology, and voila , Aikido
This conversation is endless since nobody can define aikido and gain a consensus. Whio is doing "real" aikido? Uh, I don't know what aikido is so the "real" thing??

Hello Alec,

Well, yes. I do remember that conversation and I also remember the conversation with Tada Shihan. I think it took place in Italy, during one of his summer schools.

I would take issue over one point only in your post. When the name was given to the art in 1942, it was given by what was effectively a government department--and I do not believe for one moment that the man who played the major role in doing this ever considered himself an uchi-deshi of Morihei Ueshiba.

Tada added that he had done his best to show to his own students what he had 'stolen' from Morihei Ueshiba: he was never given it on a dish. In this respect he was in the same position as Kisshomaru Ueshiba, except that Kisshomaru regarded himself as the guardian of the family silver, so to speak, and Morihei Ueshiba did so, too. But I am not convinced that Morihei Ueshiba really set much store by this: he was very ambiguous about it. He always claimed that aikido would survive, but did not concern himself too much with taking any active steps to make this happen.

I had a private conversation with H Isoyama a few months ago. Isoyama began training in Iwama at the age of 12 and grew up under Saito's tutelage. Kisshomaru was also there and the Hombu was actually in Iwama at the time. He noted that a recurring problem in Iwama and in Tokyo was "what to do about the old man," up on the floating bridge with his deities, whereas Kisshomaru was concerned with trying to fashion aikido into an art that could actually survive in postwar Japan and that meant making some important compromises.

Best wishes,

PAG

Alec Corper
04-02-2017, 05:30 AM
Hello Alec,

Well, yes. I do remember that conversation and I also remember the conversation with Tada Shihan. I think it took place in Italy, during one of his summer schools.

I would take issue over one point only in your post. When the name was given to the art in 1942, it was given by what was effectively a government department--and I do not believe for one moment that the man who played the major role in doing this ever considered himself an uchi-deshi of Morihei Ueshiba.

Tada added that he had done his best to show to his own students what he had 'stolen' from Morihei Ueshiba: he was never given it on a dish. In this respect he was in the same position as Kisshomaru Ueshiba, except that Kisshomaru regarded himself as the guardian of the family silver, so to speak, and Morihei Ueshiba did so, too. But I am not convinced that Morihei Ueshiba really set much store by this: he was very ambiguous about it. He always claimed that aikido would survive, but did not concern himself too much with taking any active steps to make this happen.

I had a private conversation with H Isoyama a few months ago. Isoyama began training in Iwama at the age of 12 and grew up under Saito's tutelage. Kisshomaru was also there and the Hombu was actually in Iwama at the time. He noted that a recurring problem in Iwama and in Tokyo was "what to do about the old man," up on the floating bridge with his deities, whereas Kisshomaru was concerned with trying to fashion aikido into an art that could actually survive in postwar Japan and that meant making some important compromises.

Best wishes,

PAG

Hello Peter,
Yes, you are correct. I also understood that the 1942 decision was a "what do we call this stuff in the demo?" kind of process. Nevertheless Ueshiba aiki was a hybrid creation. I recall the stories of him coming to the dojo and demonstrating sword work and saying, "this is how they do it in Kashima but "we" do it like this", openly stating that he changed and modified according to own model of an ideal art, which apparently no one understood. Aikido© has a future, in spite of all that may be wrong with it, depending on the myriad definitions people employ. My personal pursuit, as you know, is more to rediscover and do what he did. That is challenging enough for me without worrying about "saving" an art which will morph with time, no matter what, if people just reproduce mechanical techniques, like turning a gendai art into a koryu, without the "ko" of course ;)

warm regards,
Alec

Peter Goldsbury
04-02-2017, 06:20 AM
Hello again, Alec,

I think you can see Doshu's dilemma. He has to continue to teach the 'essence' of the art, but without knowing very much about what his grandfather actually did. He is a few years younger than I am and all he knows has been filtered via Kisshomaru and those deshi of Kisshomaru's generation. Doshu's son Mitsuteru will have an even bigger problem.

Apart from a few exceptions like Tomiki and Tohei, Kisshomaru allowed the old deshi like Tada, Yamaguchi, Arikawa to get on and teach what they had learned from Morihei Ueshiba directly, in so far as they understood this. The variety was allowed to flourish, but with the passage of time there has been an inevitable dumbing down and an increasingly frantic insistence that what the Hombu is doing is the only means of aikido salvation. I think if the Aikikai could make the eight basic waza into sacraments, they would leap at the chance.

Best wishes,

PAG

crbateman
04-02-2017, 09:00 AM
Hello Alec and Peter!

I am enjoying your ongoing discussion... I'm just listening in, fascinated, because you both know much more than I about this subject...

My lament is a simple one, as I see (if you'll pardon the expression) a dilution of the core principles, due in part to a lack of transmission among modern teachers. I suppose much of this is to be expected, and certainly change is not entirely bad, but I can't help but wonder what aikido, by whatever definition each of us subscribes to, will look like in a generation or two.

There are many other arts of much greater age that have managed to retain their identity to a greater degree, and I am concerned whether future practitioners of our art will retain any of that "O'Sensei flavor"...;) Yes, I understand that O'Sensei himself was often so cryptic that two students hearing him talk would come away with two entirely different ideas of what he said, and this makes for an occluded path for "trickle down", but it just seems sad that there is not a clearer "compass" for the generations to look back on. After all, so much of aikido is about "center".

Please continue. Yours is good stuff... :)

rugwithlegs
04-02-2017, 09:58 AM
Apart from a few exceptions like Tomiki and Tohei, Kisshomaru allowed the old deshi like Tada, Yamaguchi, Arikawa to get on and teach what they had learned from Morihei Ueshiba directly, in so far as they understood this. The variety was allowed to flourish.

PAG

Thank you for this Peter. A few questions come to mind reading your comments.

1. I had read that Tomiki had to stop teaching at the Aikikai in the 50s. I realize O Sensei and Tomiki would have played roles and from the timeline I assumed Kisshomaru was involved somehow. Kisshomaru took an active role in not allowing Tomiki and his methods?

2. I was under the impression that many deshi like Chiba and Tada didn't just teach what they had learned directly but also were innovators who added to their body of knowledge that they taught?

PeterR
04-02-2017, 11:42 AM
I had read that Tomiki had to stop teaching at the Aikikai in the 50s. I realize O Sensei and Tomiki would have played roles and from the timeline I assumed Kisshomaru was involved somehow. Kisshomaru took an active role in not allowing Tomiki and his methods?

I can't help myself. I understood Tomiki was teaching at the Aikikai Honbu until the early 60s and attending events into the 70s. Most the upheaval vis a vis the older teachers occurred in the decade between 65-75 with Kisshomaru central to it. My impression was that geographical distance from honbu had a strong effect in how strong the push was.

rugwithlegs
04-02-2017, 05:50 PM
I can't help myself. I understood Tomiki was teaching at the Aikikai Honbu until the early 60s and attending events into the 70s. Most the upheaval vis a vis the older teachers occurred in the decade between 65-75 with Kisshomaru central to it. My impression was that geographical distance from honbu had a strong effect in how strong the push was.

Thanks for speaking up Peter, and please don't feel you need to control yourself on my account. If I gave any offense, I apologize. I had read late fifties somewhere, but ultimately I was born in 1970. The history is murky. Morihei Ueshiba died before I was born, and his son died before I arrived in Japan for the first time. I have no one local to turn to and say, "Well, you were there, what was this about..."

We ask about the future of Aikido and where it is going, while we usually don't know where we've been and cannot define ourselves completely as a result. Some of the discussions of our past and future, to me, are like a discussion of astrophysics where no one is allowed to mention gravity or Isaac Newton.

Peter Goldsbury
04-02-2017, 07:17 PM
Thank you for this Peter. A few questions come to mind reading your comments.

1. I had read that Tomiki had to stop teaching at the Aikikai in the 50s. I realize O Sensei and Tomiki would have played roles and from the timeline I assumed Kisshomaru was involved somehow. Kisshomaru took an active role in not allowing Tomiki and his methods?

2. I was under the impression that many deshi like Chiba and Tada didn't just teach what they had learned directly but also were innovators who added to their body of knowledge that they taught?

Hello John,

With respect to Point 1, see my response to Peter M’s post.

With respect to Point 2, the deshi you mention lived outside Japan for many years and I know from talking to Chiba himself that he had to adapt what he had learned in the Hombu to the conditions he found in the UK. If you have recently arrived in the UK – an ‘alien’ country, you cannot speak English, and you need to teach a strongly-built Welsh miner, for example, how to take ukemi, you have to deal somehow with his quite natural resistance. I do not think Chiba would have had many options available to him at that time and in face he left something of a trail of destruction and havoc. But he also attracted some very good students. I remember at the time that he had a favourite repertoire of waza. Kanai Shihan did, also, and my own teacher here in Hiroshima. One of the latter’s favourites I have never seen done anywhere else, unless I have occasionally showed it during seminars.

I should add that I was in the US when Kisshomaru Ueshiba visited the US in 1974. He was on his way to Hawaii to meet Koichi Tohei. At the time, there was much gossip in the Cambridge dojo about what Kanai would do to Tohei if he met him by chance on a dark night -- and happened to have his sword with him.

Peter Goldsbury
04-02-2017, 08:26 PM
I can't help myself. I understood Tomiki was teaching at the Aikikai Honbu until the early 60s and attending events into the 70s. Most the upheaval vis a vis the older teachers occurred in the decade between 65-75 with Kisshomaru central to it. My impression was that geographical distance from honbu had a strong effect in how strong the push was.

Hello Peter,

I have not checked whether F Shishida has published anything about the episode, but there is an account of a meeting between Kenji Tomiki and Morihei Ueshiba in Kisshomaruís autobiography. Since he recounts what was said, I assume that he was either present at the meeting or heard it directly afterwards and from either or both participants.

Kisshomaru adds a comment, and I am going to quote the Japanese text first.

 氏は、一度いい出すと、なかなか意見を変わらない人でした。しかたなく、私は氏の話も聞いておこうと、他の師範のも富木氏の取り組みについて、できる限り協力、研究して みように勧めたほどうです。
Mr Tomiki was a man who rarely changed his opinion, once he had expressed it. The matter was unfortunate, but I listened to what he said, and, to the extent that I was able to, undertook to study further the matter of how to deal with the problems that had been raised with Mr Tomiki and other shihans.

 富木氏は、その後、競技化しなければ、これからはいかなる武道も学校の正課には入らないという見解を持つようになりました。 (『合気道一路』, p.186.)
After this, Mr Tomiki strongly held to his belief that without becoming competitive, budo could not be admitted as a subject to be taught in schools. (Aikido Ichiro, p. 186.)

I checked the old teaching lists in the aikido manuals published in the 1960s, but there were no lists given of instructors at the Hombu. I know that Mr Tomiki was still connected with the Hombu after Morihei Ueshiba passed away in 1969, but I am not sure when he stopped teaching there. Mr Shishida might know. I suspect the withdrawal was gradual, a drifting away, rather than with a flash and a bang.

The timespan given by Kisshomaru for Mr Tomikiís very frequent visits to the Aikikai in Tokyo and in Iwama was before this, after he had returned to Japan from Siberia, during the three years from Showa 26 (1951) onwards.

Best wishes,

PAG

PeterR
04-03-2017, 01:42 AM
Thanks Peter - my point was that, as you said, a gradual drifting rather than a ban. I can not remember exactly where I first heard the early 60s date. I can find it (internet search) in a book written by a non-Japanse about Tomiki aikido and I assume he heard it from the same source.

Alec Corper
04-03-2017, 03:01 AM
"History is written by the victors " Apostates or innovators? I trained with Hiroshi Kato Shihan in the last years of his life. I sometimes heard him affectionately mention the "boy" at the edge of the mat in his training days. He was, of course, referring to the Doshu.
As Peter has already indicated, contrary to what many assert, there is no line to the past, it has been broken several times. I had the good fortune to train with Kitahira once, thanks to Peter, and was not surprised when he did a number of techniques that Kato was doing, including finger locks and foot traps, not just performed as jujitsu, but with kuzushi and maai of an aikido,character. I have been training this way for some time and I clearly remember being in the Hombu and using some of this when I felt the Doshu watching. He was very careful not to indicate displeasure but I felt he didn't approve. After all his job is to be the standard bearer of the official sanitized version of aikido.
I can't see that the history of the Hombu has much to do with the history of aikido, let alone the future. The instructors who went out and built dojos in the early years were, in the main, beginners who had trained intensely for a relatively short period of time. They arrived in a Western society where their art was not known and had to modify to survive. Again, as Peter said, this led to many English people bearing the gifts of Chiba Sensei for the rest of their lives. I never trained with the man but I did train with his successor and saw how much he was governed by matching something that was already a departure from where they began.
I tried to locate a video clip out there somewhere. I believe it is of Chiba, Kanai, and Yamada as young yudansha smashing each other around in the Hombu. Great fun, smash and grab youth judo, very little subtlety or grace, just raw power and spirit. I compare that to Ueshib's demonstrations and draw the inference that a lot of the young lions were only too happy to cut loose when The Old Man was not around.
Whose history are we talking about?

MrIggy
04-03-2017, 07:56 AM
Tada added that he had done his best to show to his own students what he had 'stolen' from Morihei Ueshiba: he was never given it on a dish.


Neither does he give anything on a dish but, by all accounts, he and his students are/were much more open to at least discussing several "obscure" topics concerning the way Aikido should be trained.


I think if the Aikikai could make the eight basic waza into sacraments, they would leap at the chance.


Which are those 8 basic waza?

fatebass21
04-03-2017, 08:08 AM
Good vid. A lot of information I didn't know and caught me up

Peter Goldsbury
04-03-2017, 10:29 PM
Neither does he give anything on a dish but, by all accounts, he and his students are/were much more open to at least discussing several "obscure" topics concerning the way Aikido should be trained.

Which are those 8 basic waza?

There should really be ten: five throws and five pins: irimi-nage, shiho nage, tenchi-nage, kaiten-nage, kote-gaeshi; and 1-kyou to 5-kyou. They are all illustrated and explained from a variety of attacks in 『規範合気道基本編』. I think the English version of this book is called Best Aikido.

rugwithlegs
04-04-2017, 11:02 AM
There should really be ten: five throws and five pins: irimi-nage, shiho nage, tenchi-nage, kaiten-nage, kote-gaeshi; and 1-kyou to 5-kyou. They are all illustrated and explained from a variety of attacks in 『規範合気道基本編』. I think the English version of this book is called Best Aikido.

Jujigarami/jujinage being an ikkyo version?

Higikime/rokkyo being a nikyo version?

Sayunage/kokyunage/aigamaeate being sokumen iriminage?

Koshinage being variations on all the above?

Thanks for sharing this.

Peter Goldsbury
04-04-2017, 02:48 PM
Jujigarami/jujinage being an ikkyo version?

Higikime/rokkyo being a nikyo version?

Sayunage/kokyunage/aigamaeate being sokumen iriminage?

Koshinage being variations on all the above?

Thanks for sharing this.

Hello John,

There is another volume of the book, entitled 応用編 (applied, as opposed to basic), which deals with variations on irimi-nage, shiho-nage, kaiten-nage, with aiki-otoshi, koshi-nage, juji-garami, and various types of koyuu-nage. Kotegaeshi has a separate section, since it is regarded as a combination of a throw and a pin, and this is followed by whole section dealing with variations on the arm pins. All the items you have mentioned are included.

Best wishes,

PAG

MrIggy
04-05-2017, 02:36 PM
There should really be ten: five throws and five pins: irimi-nage, shiho nage, tenchi-nage, kaiten-nage, kote-gaeshi; and 1-kyou to 5-kyou. They are all illustrated and explained from a variety of attacks in 『規範合気道基本編』. I think the English version of this book is called Best Aikido.

http://www.aikikai.or.jp/eng/publication/books/best/best.htm

This one perhaps?


There is another volume of the book, entitled 応用編 (applied, as opposed to basic), which deals with variations on irimi-nage, shiho-nage, kaiten-nage, with aiki-otoshi, koshi-nage, juji-garami, and various types of koyuu-nage. Kotegaeshi has a separate section, since it is regarded as a combination of a throw and a pin, and this is followed by whole section dealing with variations on the arm pins. All the items you have mentioned are included.


http://www.aikikai.or.jp/eng/publication/books/best2/best2.htm

It's called "Best Aikido 2"?

mathewjgano
04-05-2017, 05:03 PM
http://ikazuchi.com/2017/03/28/the-future-of-aikido/

One would think with all the bad rep "modern" Aikido is getting people would be happy it's "dying".

I like what Mr. Dean has to say, but I dislike the language suggesting that Aikido is dying or dead. It seems like one may as well say humanity is dying or dead because we don't resemble some idealized past. It's yes and no. Dilution and concentration are both taking place. There are people who apply Aikido to any number of scenarios and find it to be a highly successful platform for their goals. Popularity may be waning, but I don't consider that to be a particularly useful measure of an art.
As far as I can tell, which is admittedly limited, the foundation to any martial art is disciplined intent; that will always vary from person to person and over time you will see differentiation, particularly when it comes to the intent portion.
Whatever the case, I would like to see Mr. Dean represent Aikido more than the other guy, who didn't seem particularly knowledgeable (thinking of the "'70's video" comment). I think he would be a more authentic voice. Not that the other guy's voice wasn't, but my hunch is that Mr. Dean is quite a bit more of an expert.

MrIggy
04-07-2017, 06:18 AM
I honestly don't understand why he wants to go on Joe Rogan's show, it's ridiculous.

Demetrio Cereijo
04-07-2017, 10:01 AM
I like what Mr. Dean has to say, but I dislike the language suggesting that Aikido is dying or dead.

At least he didn't pulled a Tadashi Abe.

Riai Maori
04-07-2017, 04:12 PM
At least he didn't pulled a Tadashi Abe.

Aikido Journal readers should gander at this thread for a more detailed view of the above comment.http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19776

mathewjgano
04-07-2017, 07:42 PM
At least he didn't pulled a Tadashi Abe.

:D Well something tells me I would enjoy Roy Dean's company a lot more than Tadashi Abe's.

I honestly don't understand why he wants to go on Joe Rogan's show, it's ridiculous.

My guess is because he respects his opinion and wants to offer a more comprehensive view of Aikido than the other guest was able to give...particularly considering what he had to say about Pranin Sensei's efforts to make Aikido more easily understood in general.
I personally like Joe Rogan (as much as I can like a person I essentially don't know at all). He's dedicated a serious portion of his life to his practices and seems to make a sincere effort to get at the truth of things.
Arguably, if someone were to try and generate more dialogue and interaction between the Aikido world and other martial arts, it makes sense to speak about it on a platform many people listen to. Roy Dean and Joe Rogan both share a BJJ background from which to explore the relevancy of Aikido.

MrIggy
04-08-2017, 11:01 AM
He's dedicated a serious portion of his life to his practices and seems to make a sincere effort to get at the truth of things.
.

Well that's the problem, he doesn't. Back in the early days of his rise to fame he claimed how he was a Taekwondo, open weight of some sort, US Open "Grand champion" which has since then been disputed because there newer was such a format held at an official US Open tournament.
Then it was speculated whether he was an ITF Taekwondo practitioner and whether the tournament he participated in was some sort of "open weight" format tournament under an ITF organization or an "open martial arts tournament" of some sort. The problem is that there are several ITF organizations and a myriad of open martial arts and full contact tournaments so it's hard to corroborate his story. Also he claimed he was trying to get into the Olympic team, so he had to be a part of some WTF affiliated club or organization but again there is no such information. Now it's all basically just down to speculation, which Rogan doesn't intend on clarifying off course. Looking at the the way he talks about martial arts and everything else i just don't see the reason for Dean going on his show.

mathewjgano
04-08-2017, 05:57 PM
Well that's the problem, he doesn't. Back in the early days of his rise to fame he claimed how he was a Taekwondo, open weight of some sort, US Open "Grand champion" which has since then been disputed because there newer was such a format held at an official US Open tournament.
Then it was speculated whether he was an ITF Taekwondo practitioner and whether the tournament he participated in was some sort of "open weight" format tournament under an ITF organization or an "open martial arts tournament" of some sort. The problem is that there are several ITF organizations and a myriad of open martial arts and full contact tournaments so it's hard to corroborate his story. Also he claimed he was trying to get into the Olympic team, so he had to be a part of some WTF affiliated club or organization but again there is no such information. Now it's all basically just down to speculation, which Rogan doesn't intend on clarifying off course. Looking at the the way he talks about martial arts and everything else i just don't see the reason for Dean going on his show.

Interesting. You seem to have done more research on him than I have. I can only add that the handful of things I've seen of him lends to a more positive impression, but I suppose that's all beside the point. Mr. Dean seems to think having a more comprehensive discussion would at least be beneficial on some level; maybe it's more about the platform itself and not the man who runs it?

MrIggy
04-08-2017, 07:20 PM
Interesting. You seem to have done more research on him than I have. I can only add that the handful of things I've seen of him lends to a more positive impression, but I suppose that's all beside the point. Mr. Dean seems to think having a more comprehensive discussion would at least be beneficial on some level; maybe it's more about the platform itself and not the man who runs it?

I hope so. If it comes to it we shall see what happens.

rugwithlegs
04-09-2017, 07:33 AM
The research doesn't include some of the highlights like his running the remake of the Man Show, or Fear Factor, or his being skeptical of things like the moon landing. I remember a barbecued deer penis contest that he got to give the commentary on.

MrIggy
04-09-2017, 03:34 PM
The research doesn't include some of the highlights like his running the remake of the Man Show, or Fear Factor, or his being skeptical of things like the moon landing. I remember a barbecued deer penis contest that he got to give the commentary on.

I was sticking to the martial arts part, but your contribution is valid.

rugwithlegs
04-09-2017, 09:59 PM
If Neil Degrasse Tyson couldn't convince Rogan the moon landing was real, then Dean has his work cut out for him if he is to have any chance of changing Rogan's mind about Aikido.

mathewjgano
04-10-2017, 11:40 AM
If Neil Degrasse Tyson couldn't convince Rogan the moon landing was real, then Dean has his work cut out for him if he is to have any chance of changing Rogan's mind about Aikido.

:blush: Oh my! Indeed.

ramenboy
04-10-2017, 01:17 PM
https://youtu.be/otaDcixjPUI

i think for most of us, we could replace 'jiu jitsu' with 'aikido' and the video kind of rings true

mjhacker
05-10-2017, 07:14 PM
Doshu's son Mitsuteru will have an even bigger problem.

I recall a conversation between my first teacher and another person back when Mitsuteru-san was still young a child and hadn't started training yet. They gist of the conversation was that they thought he (Mitsuteru) should be sent to Saito, Shioda, and Tohei for a few years each before assuming his responsibilities within the Aikikai. Who knows what might've come had their advice been followed.