Why Aikijujutsu?

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[IvLabush]

I've been wondered recently by the people that do different kinds of 'Aikijujutsu'. Body work that I saw looks like Aikido with strikes included. Some throws adopted from judo. Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu is a lot of different.
So why people call mixes as 'Aikijujutsu'? Is it possible that Aikido+something creates 'Aikijujutsu' now?

[Cady Goldfield]

Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu (or Aikibudo) is the art from which all genuine aikijujutsu is descended, but there are various lineages, as well as some arts that have Daito Ryu's aiki and its basic waza as part of their foundation, but which also have integrated waza and combat methods from other neo-classical and/or koryu arts, and do not consider themselves to be Daito Ryu.

Aikido originally was drawn from Daito Ryu aikijujutsu, but Morihei Ueshiba adapted the waza for aikido. The purpose of the jujutsu was different, then, and not meant for its original combative purposes. Aiki made even that re-tooled jujutsu workable, which is why Ueshiba could do all sorts of things with it that later generations of aikidoka could not, after aiki body method was lost from most contemporary aikido.

There are a lot of people claiming to teach "real" aikijujutsu, but who are actually re-tooling aikido and adding in various jujutsu waza from other systems. Still others are teaching the authentic jujutsu waza from Daito Ryu, but do not have the internal/aiki body method, and so are not really able to demonstrate genuine aikijujutsu. Still, there are some good schools for learning the essence of the art, if someone is interested in this fascinating and historical martial art.

[IvLabush]

Cady Goldfield, thank you for answer. I'm a bit confused now, because I can't remember any other japanese martial arts school of 'Aikijujutsu'. Some jujutsu school probably could have ideas similar to Daito-ryu's 'aiki'. I belive that it should be one the highest art transmission levels that's why I never heard of it. It was rumor that some martial art schools develops techniques against 'aiki'. We should not forget fact that Daito-ryu related schools adopt 'aiki' idea in own way. Anyway those could be determined easily.
It would be nice if someone could share other japanese martial art that includes 'aiki' idea similar or same to Daito-ryu. Aikido, Hako-ryu and it's branches might be known to a lot of people. But what if we have more 'aiki' related schools.
I wondered also about naming. I see no shame if someone put efforts to develop martial arts. Somehow I saw too less people that called new martial art like 'my jujutsu'. In Japan a few cenutries ago guys do that actually! And now we have a lot of different points of view to japanese martial tradition. Looks like 'Any School Aikijujutsu' becomes fashion words in martial art world. It would be nice to point 'aiki' of which martial art the new school uses at least.

[Cady Goldfield]

Ivan,
Basically, Aikijujutsu is associated with Daito Ryu. However, the foundation of aiki/internal method has connections to Chinese internal martial arts, and someone who has trained in an internal Chinese system could apply what they learn to jujutsu and have an internal martial art.

There are some people (mostly in Daito Ryu) who say that in order to truly be Aikijujutsu, the internal method must come from a Japanese source -- specifically, Daito Ryu -- however; I say if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. ;) I have a strong suspicion that Japanese internals/aiki originally were derived from Chinese teachings, anyway.

Cady Goldfield, thank you for answer. I'm a bit confused now, because I can't remember any other japanese martial arts school of 'Aikijujutsu'. Some jujutsu school probably could have ideas similar to Daito-ryu's 'aiki'. I belive that it should be one the highest art transmission levels that's why I never heard of it. It was rumor that some martial art schools develops techniques against 'aiki'. We should not forget fact that Daito-ryu related schools adopt 'aiki' idea in own way. Anyway those could be determined easily.
It would be nice if someone could share other japanese martial art that includes 'aiki' idea similar or same to Daito-ryu. Aikido, Hako-ryu and it's branches might be known to a lot of people. But what if we have more 'aiki' related schools.
I wondered also about naming. I see no shame if someone put efforts to develop martial arts. Somehow I saw too less people that called new martial art like 'my jujutsu'. In Japan a few cenutries ago guys do that actually! And now we have a lot of different points of view to japanese martial tradition. Looks like 'Any School Aikijujutsu' becomes fashion words in martial art world. It would be nice to point 'aiki' of which martial art the new school uses at least.

[Mark Raugas]

Basically, Aikijujutsu is associated with Daito Ryu. However, the foundation of aiki/internal method has connections to Chinese internal martial arts, and someone who has trained in an internal Chinese system could apply what they learn to jujutsu and have an internal martial

I agree, having been through that very process. You may have to get rid of a bunch of things along the way. My guess is with aikido, the core waza are more likely to survive such a process? Would some Aiki waza and kokyu nage survive but not others?

Mark

[GovernorSilver]

Daito Ryu looks more like this. This woman is making the guy grunt in pain without having to add extra techniques like punches and kicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukFscW0BP_Q

Some inevitably ask "why doesn't he let go" but she is probably using force vectors (I guess "jin" or "aiki") to keep them stuck together.

There is a video in which Ando-sensei of Yoshinkan Aikido explains how to make uke unable to let go, except uke isn't constantly grunting/screaming in pain like in Daito Ryu:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhDzWCmLd_0&feature=youtu.be&t=31m40s

[IvLabush]

Cady Goldfield, I agree that Japanese internal training could have Chinese roots. Japan adopt some things from China in own way. I'm not aware in Chinese martial arts and I guess that it could be a difference in power application. I saw a lot of hitting or pushing away in Chinese tradition, but less in Japanese.
Anyway if someone did that kind of researches it would be interesting to know about that.

Paolo Valladolid, I belive that Daito-ryu is not about how to make someone scream. To put the mask and fire torchlight is the best solution :)
Those two videos could illustrate the difference in application. The first one demonstrate how to use inner power to drop opponent down. The second one is about how to push away.

[SeiserL]

IMHO, Aikido comes from Aiki-Jujutsu, but took a different path for a different reason/intent.
When I train in Aikido (do), I usually see self-development and self-defense (at best).
When I train in Aiki-Jujutsu (jujutsu) I usually see more martial application/spirit.

[GovernorSilver]

Paolo Valladolid, I belive that Daito-ryu is not about how to make someone scream. To put the mask and fire torchlight is the best solution :)
Those two videos could illustrate the difference in application. The first one demonstrate how to use inner power to drop opponent down. The second one is about how to push away.

:D

Actually, I agree with you, based on what little Daito Ryu I have seen, heard, and felt, although I like that joke: "When your partner smiles as you do a technique, it's Aikido. When he screams, it's Daito Ryu". Some Daito-Ryu branches specialize in the manipulation of force vectors to do things to the partner, with or without pain - I believe this is what some people refer to as "aiki" in the Internal Training forum. I believe what Ledyard-sensei did to me was "aiki" - didn't hurt but it was quite a revelation to feel it happening. He was showing me how uke should connect to nage, by grabbing my wrist. Then "something" went up my arm.

In Aikido, there are a lot of people who can use the Up/Ground force vector, as demonstrated by Ando-sensei, but that seems to be about it. Smaller Aikidoka seem to get it more consistently than big guys. It is the most accessible one - this is what Tohei was talking about in his Ki principles: "Keep one point. Weight underside.... etc.". Down/Gravity is trickier to use. Using them both and whatever other vectors are available is trickier still.

Certain Chinese MA use force vectoring too, but I haven't heard of anyone using them in another person's body - just within one's own body to hit harder, uproot another person, etc. Sending force vectors/aiki into somebody else seems to be a Daito Ryu innovation.

[GovernorSilver]

Here, Chen Xiaowang describes 8 force vectors. He calls them "jin". He seems to be only talking about using them within his own body, not manipulating them in another person; unless it is a secret not to be shared with the public on pain of death: http://taichivideos.org/chen-xiaowang-explains-the-8-basic-jin-of-chen-tai-chi-chuan/

[Cady Goldfield]

Here, Chen Xiaowang describes 8 force vectors. He calls them "jin". He seems to be only talking about using them within his own body, not manipulating them in another person; unless it is a secret not to be shared with the public on pain of death: http://taichivideos.org/chen-xiaowang-explains-the-8-basic-jin-of-chen-tai-chi-chuan/

Aiki is something you create in your body first: a set of complementary-opposite tensions that generate deliberately, specific kinds of force. If someone touches you, his body will be affected by those internal movements within you. You exploit that by creating additional kinds of tensions and "fullness" to control his center of mass and force him to move in a mirror image -- but with greater received force -- to how you are moving inside yourself.

That's why Morihei Ueshiba said, basically, "Aiki, is making my opponent do what I want him to."

It has to be within yourself, first -- the processes already in motion -- before you can affect another bdy. Because you are already in a state of internal power, and generating aiki, you are "there" (i.e. your body is "on" and able to affect an opponent, immediately on contact, without having to "move" overtly). Then, it's a matter of conditioning yourself to use that in fighting, to be able to apply that power and body-effect in waza and fighting tactics.

The Chen person is talking about that first step - of making the processes within your body.

[IvLabush]

To Paolo Valladolid.
Roman languages faced problem to translate term 'Aiki'. We do not have such word or its combination to describe idea fully. Generally, inner feeling of 'aiki' described by different people is the same. So it's hard to say 'Thing that looks like this is aiki' or 'Thing that does this is aiki'.

I think that 'aiki' idea or similar could be different and depends on art context. Goes back to the first message I still think about martial arts called 'Aikijujutsu'. The name seems general for an endless quantity of different representations of the same idea. It gives not more than 'Aikido' without the branch and teacher name.

[Amir Krause]

Daito Ryu looks more like this. This woman is making the guy grunt in pain without having to add extra techniques like punches and kicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukFscW0BP_Q

Some inevitably ask "why doesn't he let go" but she is probably using force vectors (I guess "jin" or "aiki") to keep them stuck together.

There is a video in which Ando-sensei of Yoshinkan Aikido explains how to make uke unable to let go, except uke isn't constantly grunting/screaming in pain like in Daito Ryu:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhDzWCmLd_0&feature=youtu.be&t=31m40s

First Video seems peculiar to me, don't see any reason for this guy to grunt in pain, or even to go down, I can't see why he shouldn't keep holding her - nothing seems to be done to him. Would have to feel this to believe it, cause to me this looks like magic or self deception.

Second video is too long t, so not clear what you found similar, all the parts I saw had clear and rather simple mechanical principles behind them, no "super hidden" aiki.

Thanks
Amir

[Demetrio Cereijo]

First Video seems peculiar to me, don't see any reason for this guy to grunt in pain, or even to go down, I can't see why he shouldn't keep holding her - nothing seems to be done to him. Would have to feel this to believe it, cause to me this looks like magic or self deception.

Amir, you've being around here for some time. This is the IP/Aiki thing people have been talking about.

[IvLabush]

Amir Krause, the video is rather demonstration than explanation. It take some time to practice those things before it becomes observable. Training explains it indeed.

[RonRagusa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukFscW0BP_Q

Some inevitably ask "why doesn't he let go" but she is probably using force vectors (I guess "jin" or "aiki") to keep them stuck together.

Yeah, I don't think so. Uke is using the platform provided by nage to apply a form of nikkyo on himself. OTOH, this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipz4sSgVwqc#t=194.587687) of Roy Goldberg is more instructive and a lot more believable. I've been on both sides of this type of demonstration. It works.

Note that even in Goldberg sensei's demonstration uke has the option of letting go, but then there wouldn't be anything to demonstrate. As with all demonstrations of this type uke has to be a committed participant.

Ron

[Cady Goldfield]

No, they can't let go, weird as it seems. Nage is "filling" the point of contact with force from his core internal mechanisms (6-directional force), through uke's alignment to his center of mass, and down to the ground. He is compressed through his joints and can't get out of it until the force stops.

These things can be reversed, though, if you have aiki yourself. But people with conventional body structure get stuck.

Also, the holds and locks are not meant to be kept for very long. In practice, they would be done just briefly to allow nage to set up and execute a throw, takedown, choke, lock.. whatever. This is aiki-no-jutsu -- aiki itself, as technique unto itself, but not something martial or related to combat application. You can apply the principles and concepts to waza and fighting, but this is just happy funtime demonstration, in these videos. :)

[Cady Goldfield]

Here are some of those principles and concepts in a more martial application.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3-8yiqnaPE

[Devon Smith]

I've been wondered recently by the people that do different kinds of 'Aikijujutsu'. Body work that I saw looks like Aikido with strikes included. Some throws adopted from judo. Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu is a lot of different.
So why people call mixes as 'Aikijujutsu'? Is it possible that Aikido+something creates 'Aikijujutsu' now?

Hi Ivan,

I think in order to understand what is happening with usage of the term "aikijujutsu", especially in USA and Europe, you might have to first look to some writings of some of the first people outside Japan who spent time inside Japan trying their best to put their experiences on paper.

Certainly Donn Draeger comes to mind. In reading his works "Classical Bujutsu" and "Classical Budo", it was pretty easy for us to draw some simple, not-thought-out-so-well conclusions.

Conclusions like "well, if aikido is a budo and a way of harmony, then aikijutsu must be a way of battle, war, and killing."

This sense of disparity between bujutsu and budo is still alive depending on who you talk to.

Personally, I think that's a shame.

http://www.koryu.com/library/dskoss6.html

Devon

[Amir Krause]

Amir Krause, the video is rather demonstration than explanation. It take some time to practice those things before it becomes observable. Training explains it indeed.

Been training Korindo Aikido for over 25 years by now, not as diligently as I would have liked, so I have some idea. This first video is significantly different from the others, though also in few of the other videos here the Uke could let go and disable the technique, while most show "simply correct body mechanics" with an Uke who is not trying to escape the technique, rather help it a little, but not excessively so. From my POV, there is a great difference in positions, unless the video is hiding some fact I miss. Hence, as I wrote above, until I personally feel something like this first video, I'll categorize it same as those seen in this thread: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25081
You may believe it as much as you like

Amir

[PeterR]

Note that even in Goldberg sensei's demonstration uke has the option of letting go, but then there wouldn't be anything to demonstrate. As with all demonstrations of this type uke has to be a committed participant.

This is a fair statement - I just wish there wasn't a tendency of uke to over act (the first video especially).

[GovernorSilver]

Aiki is something you create in your body first: a set of complementary-opposite tensions that generate deliberately, specific kinds of force. If someone touches you, his body will be affected by those internal movements within you. You exploit that by creating additional kinds of tensions and "fullness" to control his center of mass and force him to move in a mirror image -- but with greater received force -- to how you are moving inside yourself.

That's why Morihei Ueshiba said, basically, "Aiki, is making my opponent do what I want him to."

It has to be within yourself, first -- the processes already in motion -- before you can affect another bdy. Because you are already in a state of internal power, and generating aiki, you are "there" (i.e. your body is "on" and able to affect an opponent, immediately on contact, without having to "move" overtly). Then, it's a matter of conditioning yourself to use that in fighting, to be able to apply that power and body-effect in waza and fighting tactics.

The Chen person is talking about that first step - of making the processes within your body.

This makes sense. When Ledyard had me do to him what he did to me ("send aiki" or whatever) I could not get anything going until I established ground force first. Whenever he said I got "stuck" in his shoulder, chest, or whatever, I had lost the ground force.

[GovernorSilver]

Second video is too long t, so not clear what you found similar, all the parts I saw had clear and rather simple mechanical principles behind them, no "super hidden" aiki.


The Youtube link should have taken you to the 31:40 mark. The explanation lasts only a few minutes.

I think the woman in the first video is using similar principles. Her partner is complaining a lot more because his wrist is at a more uncomfortable angle and it's stuck there.

[GovernorSilver]

Yeah, I don't think so. Uke is using the platform provided by nage to apply a form of nikkyo on himself. OTOH, this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipz4sSgVwqc) of Roy Goldberg is more instructive and a lot more believable. I've been on both sides of this type of demonstration. It works.

Note that even in Goldberg sensei's demonstration uke has the option of letting go, but then there wouldn't be anything to demonstrate. As with all demonstrations of this type uke has to be a committed participant.

Ron

So did he do the same to you? How are you able to let go?

In the Goldberg video, the only opportunity uke has to let go is before the 0:10 mark. Afterwards, his only way out for his hand is down. He cannot release his grip, because he isn't gripping anything anymore by that point. He can't move his hand up for obvious reasons. Sideways is not possible. So he'd have to get lower and hope Goldberg doesn't just follow him.

[GovernorSilver]

To Paolo Valladolid.
Roman languages faced problem to translate term 'Aiki'. We do not have such word or its combination to describe idea fully. Generally, inner feeling of 'aiki' described by different people is the same. So it's hard to say 'Thing that looks like this is aiki' or 'Thing that does this is aiki'.


Right, there is no universal agreement on what aiki is. Part of the problem is most of us don't read/write Japanese. The characters for "aiki" in "Aikido" are two specific characters. But there are other characters that can also be pronounced "aiki" but probably don't mean the same thign.

What Ledyard did to me is what Cady calls "aiki".

The Internal Training forum is where a lot of discussion of "aiki" and sometimes "jin" takes place. This stuff seems to be built on the ability to use two basic forces, gravity and ground (the force you exert to stand, otherwise you'd be lying on the ground). There are Aikido dojo that already work with ground force, especially those influenced by Tohei's teachings - ours is one of them. We don't have formal "Ki tests" like Ki Society people have but we do have exercises where you hold a weapon extended in front of you, and your partner pushes on the weapon - you are instructed to allow the push to reach your back foot. This is basic ground force usage. A variation is to use ground force to push your partner across the mat. I have not yet encountered gravity force exercises - I don't know if that is taught at all in any Aikido dojo.

[GovernorSilver]

.

Second video is too long t, so not clear what you found similar, all the parts I saw had clear and rather simple mechanical principles behind them, no "super hidden" aiki.


One more comment on this:

Ando-sensei's explanation is very similar to that of Goldberg's in the video that Ron Ragusa posted. Both videos show a teacher who is a little man taking command of a big man's balance by applying the force of gravity onto his wrist.

I see nothing wrong in having fundamentally sound principles. When a 130lb man pits a good chunk of his bodyweight (gravity) against a 200lb man's wrist, the wrist will lose. :D

[Cady Goldfield]

I agree, having been through that very process. You may have to get rid of a bunch of things along the way. My guess is with aikido, the core waza are more likely to survive such a process? Would some Aiki waza and kokyu nage survive but not others?

Mark

Mark, from my perspective, the waza would survive... particularly that which was derived from Daito Ryu Aiki Budo/Aikijujutsu to begin with. What would change is the power driver for waza. Aiki/internals is the power driver for aikijujutsu, and is inherent in the body's structure and "pre-waza" state. It is not in itself "technique," but a condition, as you likely know from your experience. We create aiki within our body, then when contact is made with an opponent, he is immediately affected (kuzushi on contact); then, we can move our arms, change our over shape, etc. in different ways to achieve specific effects... set him up for takedown, throw, lock, pin, etc. With internal method, the power and potential energy is already inherent in the body before contact is made.

When the internal method was removed or lost from contemporary aikido, the power for waza had to be created by the overt movements of the waza themselves. Tenkan became necessary for generating centripedal force, for example, and luring uke to overreach himself in order for nage to exploit uke's momentum, became a tactic of the art.
When there was aiki, nage never had to do these things. They used internal mechanisms to draw uke to them, to take his center whether he was "tricked" or not. Outward movement and stepping were unnecessary, as was having to lead uke into a void by uke's own volition.

In essence, the mechanisms that drive contemporary aikido are the polar or near-polar opposites for the mechanism that drive authentic aikijujutsu and other internal arts. So, even though the waza themselves would exist, they would look somewhat different due to the different power drivers. Notably, the movements of aikijujutsu are smaller and more direct (composed of minute spirals and helixes), while contemporary aikido operates on larger overt circular movement.

[Peter Goldsbury]

Hello Mark,

This is a footnote to Cady's post. I suggest you look at the very early training manuals published under the imprimatur of Morihei Ueshiba before World War II (that is, before Kisshomaru took over the running of the art). The line drawings made by Kunigoshi were done in 1933, just two years after Ueshiba opened his Kobukan Dojo. True, they might not make much sense to the novice, but they are the result of intensive training at a seminar conducted by aikido's main exponent of IP skills: Ueshiba himself. I have used the book myself and the movements are very small -- have to be small. There are none of the big circles characteristic of Kisshomaru's aikido.

Best wishes,

[IvLabush]

To Ron Ragusa
I think that 'aiki' that uses when someone takes a grip had to be used specifically. Meaningless to use 'aiki' if grip loosens or the opponent like to fall down or run away at the very first moments. 'Aiki' could give a tactical advantage against a skilled opponent. For other matters, jujutsu exists. 'Aikijujutsu' uses 'aiki' idea on top of the jujutsu techniques. It's easy to imagine that student should have jujutsu skills before learning 'aiki' application.

To Devon Smith
Thank you for sharing the nice article. I agree with you what division to 'bujutsu' and 'budo' could be artificial. I think that some of 'Aikijujutsu' appear as result of attempts to dissociate Aikido pushing by critics.

To Amir Krause
I have no so mutch experience in Aikido so my opinion could be less valuable than yours. I mentioned about this situation before. 'Aiki' depends on the practitioner and martial art that he or she practiced. Something that's correct it one martial art might be claimed wrong in other. So it could be points of view on 'aiki' idea that is different that yours.
People base thoughts about something with keep in mind previous experience. The lady on the first one video practiced Kodokai Daito-ryu. At that point may I ask you a question - have you ever practice with guys from Kodokai?

I'd like to thank you all for sharing your thoughts from the different experience and different martial arts perspectives.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Hello Mark,

... I suggest you look at the very early training manuals published under the imprimatur of Morihei Ueshiba before World War II
I was going to write this.

Lots of the waza contained in these manuals are martially sound.

[GovernorSilver]

The lady on the first one video practiced Kodokai Daito-ryu. At that point may I ask you a question - have you ever practice with guys from Kodokai?


There is a Daito Ryu Kodokai study group in my area. They meet once a week. I sent them an email requesting permission to join, but got no reply.

I later joined the Aikido dojo. Aikido does not seem as exotic but I'm quite happy with this dojo.

It was at an Aikido seminar that I met George Ledyard-sensei. He still practices Aikido and is still loyal to Saotome-shihan. However, he also trains with Howard Popkin, who is passing on the teachings of Daito Ryu Roppokai. So that is my one encounter with somebody who knows Daito Ryu.

[Mark Raugas]

Hello Mark,

This is a footnote to Cady's post. I suggest you look at the very early training manuals published under the imprimatur of Morihei Ueshiba before World War II (that is, before Kisshomaru took over the running of the art). The line drawings made by Kunigoshi were done in 1933, just two years after Ueshiba opened his Kobukan Dojo. True, they might not make much sense to the novice, but they are the result of intensive training at a seminar conducted by aikido's main exponent of IP skills: Ueshiba himself. I have used the book myself and the movements are very small -- have to be small. There are none of the big circles characteristic of Kisshomaru's aikido.

Best wishes,

Hi Peter,

Thank you. Looking around a bit on line, I am happy that Chris Li is making scans of some early manuals available. When I get some time blocked off I want to look at them and compare them a bit to the volumes of Saito that Stan Pranin collated and made available online for sale.

Mark

[IvLabush]

There is a Daito Ryu Kodokai study group in my area. They meet once a week. I sent them an email requesting permission to join, but got no reply.

I later joined the Aikido dojo. Aikido does not seem as exotic but I'm quite happy with this dojo.

It was at an Aikido seminar that I met George Ledyard-sensei. He still practices Aikido and is still loyal to Saotome-shihan. However, he also trains with Howard Popkin, who is passing on the teachings of Daito Ryu Roppokai. So that is my one encounter with somebody who knows Daito Ryu.
My question has been addressed to Amir Krause but it was nice to know about your experience. I wonder to people that practice both Aikido and Aikijujutsu. It must be hard to combine different martial arts in one body.

[GovernorSilver]

My question has been addressed to Amir Krause but it was nice to know about your experience. I wonder to people that practice both Aikido and Aikijujutsu. It must be hard to combine different martial arts in one body.

That's one of many questions I forgot to ask Ledyard - what it's like to practice both Aikido and Daito Ryu.

I'd like to check out Daito Ryu and feel more Daito Ryu people eventually but now I have enough material to practice.

[Amir Krause]

To Ron Ragusa

To Amir Krause
I have no so mutch experience in Aikido so my opinion could be less valuable than yours. I mentioned about this situation before. 'Aiki' depends on the practitioner and martial art that he or she practiced. Something that's correct it one martial art might be claimed wrong in other. So it could be points of view on 'aiki' idea that is different that yours.
People base thoughts about something with keep in mind previous experience. The lady on the first one video practiced Kodokai Daito-ryu. At that point may I ask you a question - have you ever practice with guys from Kodokai?

I'd like to thank you all for sharing your thoughts from the different experience and different martial arts perspectives.

if one is showing a universal principle, it will work on anyone, not only inside some practice group.
I have not had the chance to practice with Kodokai, nor with many others, yet, this stuff does seem so peculiar, I stick to previous comment - won't believe it until I do get a chance to feel it on myself. And note, I was refering to something vey specific, most of the videos showed high level usage of well known (in my mind) mechanical principles, only that one was different (and again, as I wrote there, it could be a different camera angle will show something which would change my opinion, this is a known video limitation in my mind)

Regards
Amir

[IvLabush]

I have not had the chance to practice with Kodokai, nor with many others, yet, this stuff does seem so peculiar, I stick to previous comment - won't believe it until I do get a chance to feel it on myself.
This is the straight answer to my question. I've been thinking the same when I saw last Okamoto sensei's demonstration for the first time. It's the best solution to have own experience.

[GovernorSilver]

I do get a chance to feel it on myself.

Fair enough. To everyone watching Ledyard-sensei and myself, we just looked like two guys holding hands. But nobody would have understood what was going on unless he/she felt Ledyard himself/herself.

Regarding one of the Kodokai videos, I tip my hat to those of you who can take nikkyo to your wrist for more than 10 secs. continously and not be shouting in pain like that. You guys must be the toughest dudes on Earth. ;)

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Regarding one of the Kodokai videos, I tip my hat to those of you who can take nikkyo to your wrist for more than 10 secs. continously and not be shouting in pain like that. You guys must be the toughest dudes on Earth. ;)

Which video are you referring to?

[PeterR]

Regarding one of the Kodokai videos, I tip my hat to those of you who can take nikkyo to your wrist for more than 10 secs. continously and not be shouting in pain like that. You guys must be the toughest dudes on Earth. ;)

Not really, have it done to you enough you can become desensitized, some people never feel that much pain to begin with, and learning to mask discomfort is part of the training.

Flopping like a fish while screaming seems, to those more jaded, like unnecessary overacting.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Flopping like a fish while screaming seems, to those more jaded, like unnecessary overacting.
And a good nikkyo doesn't hurt.

[PeterR]

And a good nikkyo doesn't hurt.

Having a bit of fun with this - but I would say you don't need pain to make it work but the presence of pain does not make it a bad nikkyo.

I remember the first time this was applied to me (maybe 5th Kyu) by Nariyama Shihan and I will happily admit I screamed like a little girl. I did not flop like a fish because the subsequent pin buried me into the mat. These days I don't have nearly the same reaction and I don't know the reason for it exactly. Could be no one does it like Nariyama, I became desensitized, or I know how to move into the technique to minimize its effect.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Having a bit of fun with this - but I would say you don't need pain to make it work but the presence of pain does not make it a bad nikkyo.
I don't disagree with that, but I like more the ones when uke collapses wondering why.

[PeterR]

I don't disagree with that, but I like more the ones when uke collapses wondering why.

I'll give you that - but my inner sadist enjoys delivering a little of the special sauce.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

I'll give you that - but my shodothug enjoys delivering a little of the special sauce.
Fixed :D

[Cady Goldfield]

Kotegaeshi and nikkyo should control uke's structure mechanically through his joint alignment, to his center of mass. You don't need to apply pain compliance at all for it to work. But a very small "tweak" that crosses and pressures the radius and ulna is that extra sauce that can add pain to the mix. ;)