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StefanHultberg
02-16-2017, 06:44 AM
There are many ways to ”escape” ikkyo – and many ways to stop the escape. There is one particular way to escape ikkyo, though, that I find troubling. Certainly some atemi, good old hair grabbing, a pencil in the nostril could solve the problem, but I’m looking for an elegant, aikido-like solution to my problem.
There are a myriad of ways to perform ikkyo. I will start with a short description of a basic ikkyo in my dojo. This is my foundation for this whole problem & post.
If we assume that I wish to carry out an ikkyo using uke’s right arm then, after a good smack toward’s uke’s face nage will grab uke’s right wrist or hand with his (nage’s) right hand. Nage’s right hand will either encircle uke’s wrist with the te gatana on the “pulse-side” or I will have uke’s hand in a nikkyo-position. Nage’s left hand will be holding uke’s arm in such a way that the te-gatana pushes down on uke’s arm immediately above the elbow. Nage will then slide forwards, pushing uke’s elbow “through” his face (or ear) and continue the movement until uke almost loses his balance forwards. Then, at the correct time uke will be pushed diagonally towards the left and down on his stomach.
Now, if uke – just before he loses his balance – makes a roll over his left arm then he is out of the ikkyo - not necessarily out of trouble, though, as he is very vulnerable to many other techniques just as he is coming out of the roll and is on his back.
Ikkyo can easily be turned into a kokyunage if, at the end of the technique, nage does not put uke on his stomach, but uses uke’s arm and a “push” towards the side of uke in order to throw him forwards, sometimes into a roll. This is the intentional use of ikkyo as a kokyunage whereas I am talking about the unintentional roll of uke when performing basic ikkyo, i.e. not as a throw but as a controlled takedown and lock with uke on his stomach.
I have found two ways to stop uke rolling – both quite difficult and very sensitive to timing. Either (if holding uke’s hand in the nikkyo-position) one can pull up and back on uke’s elbow, thus turning the ikkyo into a nikkyo and thus blocking the escape-roll. This is either done by grabbing uke’s gi (or other clothes) at the elbow or actually letting the left hand swivel towards the “opposite” (inner) side of uke’s elbow. Alternatively one can push uke much more straight down in the final move, thus trapping uke’s head (face) against the ground, essentially placing the head (face) of uke as a block against the roll.
Both of these “stops” have to be executed early, as soon as uke’s roll has actually begun it makes much more sense to control uke as his roll is about to finish and he is on his back.
Alternatively, if timed correctly, one can change the strategy when uke has started the roll and turn the ikkyo into the kokyunage, sending him on his way by using his own roll-energy combined with a push and ki-extension of nage.
Does anybody have a suggestion on how to optimally stop uke from rolling out of “my” basic ikkyo?
Please let me know if it sounds like I’ve confused left/right or something else somewhere, damn it’s not easy to describe techniques in text !!

All the best
Stefan

rugwithlegs
02-16-2017, 06:16 PM
There are a number of ways. I like Saito sensei's three levels of timing - very early (almost uke attacking, a Jodan version of shomenuchi ikkyo), a chudan version a little later in the technique, and the arm getting all the way behind the back, and then eventually all the way to the ground.

Bruce Bookman showed me that morotedori is basically ikkyo, and kotegaeshi, and nikyo, and sankyo, etc. two hands on one, with subtle variations in the hands.

The reversals are about learning the holes in the basic techniques, and then learning to fill the holes in. Mi don't approach reversals asa way of reversing anything but rather a way to improve the technique being reversed, or seeing when the technique should be discarded in favor of another. My two cents, hope that made sense.

Rupert Atkinson
02-16-2017, 09:00 PM
Ikkyo is off balance and cut down. If you do it fast uke will be cut down. If you do it slow, uke has time to think .... after cutting down I sometimes reverse the arm a-la-nikyo/rokyo, and carry on. A good uke can sometimes slip out ... which is good ... we should all try to be 'slippery' as uke. Other ukes might be starting to counter, knowingly or not, which is not quite the same game.

Riai Maori
02-16-2017, 10:43 PM
Instead of grabbing the elbow, grab their shoulder and weight underside with your body take them immediately to ground driving their shoulder strait down. It ain't pretty, but takes away their ability to roll out.Just another variation of the technique.:D

rugwithlegs
02-17-2017, 10:50 AM
Sorry, read it a bit more clearly. The zig zag, and the downward trajectory is probably needing some refinement that I cannot picture. If they are being projected away and forward, then the roll is easier.

I am assuming you're a nice guy - for uke to be rolling, their head is going to lead the motion but you are not smashing their skull into the mat. The zig zag can be a part of a leg sweep or a knee to the ribs, then a knee drop on the back of the shoulder.

What happens when you do hanmihandachi ikkyo? Specifically the variation with no large body movement.

When standing, are you having uke' decide to roll or are they already in flight and rolling?

StefanHultberg
03-01-2017, 08:14 AM
I found this 7 minute clip of Christian Tissier Sensei giving a very interesting ikkyo lesson. WOW!! I hope. Not sure I've done it correct with the link, but search in youtube.com for Christian Tissier Ikkyo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX3Oru_CbKY

I suppose I tend to be a rather nice nage, but even if I'm not (within reason), uke can still roll out of the ikkyo - providing he initiates his roll early enough. I haven't actually tried to be ultra-violent as I think it could be quite dangerous to violently "catch" his head against the mat as he is actually trying to roll - neckbreak fear !!!

I will ask Sensei about this and humbly beg for an hour of ikkyo-wisdom specifically around my little "ikkyo problem". I

All the best
Stefan

fatebass21
03-03-2017, 07:47 AM
It is immediately apparent from the video that speed could be the deciding factor in effectively applying ikkyo

Currawong
03-03-2017, 08:24 PM
My take on ikkyo is that you are applying kokyo-ho through a different vector, taking control of uke's center through their elbow.

In the shomen-uchi version, I'm used to not grabbing the arm during initial contact, but extend my fingers instead, using the "te-kanana" (hand blade) which makes the bottom-edge of the hands the contact points, the same point which is critical in kokyu-ho. From there, one can begin a grip of the elbow, through which one rotates the arm and shoulder through their axis, locking up uke's body in a way that they can't rotate out of it.

From there, with uke bent over, one can go diagonally forward in either direction to complete things.

Of course, at speed this is easier said than done, as it means combining an initial large circular motion with the forward cut with a small circular rotation of the arm, all the while maintaining your own structural integrity and timing, and being very sensitive to what is going on within yourself and uke.

To escape, one has to avoid the initial internal destabilisation (kuzushi) in the first place.

Hanmi-handachi ikkyo is much harder, as the timing is completely different. In doing that, you are taking downward movement of the cut and sweeping it out sideways and forward, causing uke's own momentum to send them into the mat. The arm rotation is in there but much smaller and more focussed. That's how I see it anyway. :)

shuckser
03-03-2017, 11:00 PM
I found this 7 minute clip of Christian Tissier Sensei giving a very interesting ikkyo lesson.If you like what Tissier does, here's a break-down of Ikkyo from Shomen uchi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCcYz4lixkE

He doesn't directly show how to solve your pinning problem, he just focuses on the entry, but maybe that's enough.

Hopefully it's interesting anyway. Subtitles are available if you can't hear it so well.

StefanHultberg
03-07-2017, 05:59 AM
Here is a link to a demonstration of the "type" of ikkyo (here from shomen uchi) that is standard syllabus in my aikido-environment. This is something quite close to the ikkyo I tried to describe in the original post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOVoIKqbYcg

All the best

Stefan

grondahl
03-07-2017, 07:25 AM
Here is a link to a demonstration of the "type" of ikkyo (here from shomen uchi) that is standard syllabus in my aikido-environment. This is something quite close to the ikkyo I tried to describe in the original post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOVoIKqbYcg

All the best

Stefan

This is a better video of shomen uchi ikkyo: It´s the first waza.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3JtD6KRMZ0

StefanHultberg
03-08-2017, 09:51 AM
This is a better video of shomen uchi ikkyo: It´s the first waza.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3JtD6KRMZ0

Very Nice ! There it is :)

Thanks

Stefan

StefanHultberg
03-09-2017, 08:26 AM
Here is a rough example of the counter I have a problem with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D10w1VFGZh0

All the best

Stefan

Demetrio Cereijo
03-09-2017, 08:58 AM
Here is a rough example of the counter I have a problem with:
You mean the roll reversal?

As you can see in the clip, uke is jumping from the frying pan into the fire. That's not a problem.

StefanHultberg
03-09-2017, 09:19 AM
You mean the roll reversal?

As you can see in the clip, uke is jumping from the frying pan into the fire. That's not a problem.

I know it's not a problem, there are a billion things that can be done and, as you say, uke is not exactly better off.

What I'm looking for, though, is some elegant way to stop the roll reversal (didn't know that term :) ), preferrably without going too much into "other techniques". I suppose I'm looking for a very traditional aikido-certified :) and peaceful - but controlling - way to carry out ikkyo and make sure uke lands on his stomach - or face - in a very aikido-nerdy way :)

I have a session with Sensei about this specific topic tonight. Will report :)

All the best

Stefan

PeterR
03-09-2017, 10:13 AM
I know it's not a problem, there are a billion things that can be done and, as you say, uke is not exactly better off.

What I'm looking for, though, is some elegant way to stop the roll reversal (didn't know that term :) ), preferrably without going too much into "other techniques". I suppose I'm looking for a very traditional aikido-certified :) and peaceful - but controlling - way to carry out ikkyo and make sure uke lands on his stomach - or face - in a very aikido-nerdy way :)

I have a session with Sensei about this specific topic tonight. Will report :)

All the best

Stefan

Wow - that's a lot of qualifications. Peaceful, elegant - yet controlling.

The ikkyo I know and love is far more difficult to role out of. The bent elbow travels over uke's head as tori steps around him. Far more direct with little wiggle room.

Soooo - in my opinion as the elbow moves away from the body the opportunity to role out increases. Keep it tight.

Demetrio Cereijo
03-09-2017, 11:28 AM
What I'm looking for, though, is some elegant way to stop the roll reversal...in a very aikido-nerdy way :)

Whithout resorting to other techniques, aikido-certified, peaceful but controlling ....tell your uke to not roll away and to stick to the kata.

:)

grondahl
03-09-2017, 11:37 AM
I know it's not a problem, there are a billion things that can be done and, as you say, uke is not exactly better off.

What I'm looking for, though, is some elegant way to stop the roll reversal (didn't know that term :) ), preferrably without going too much into "other techniques". I suppose I'm looking for a very traditional aikido-certified :) and peaceful - but controlling - way to carry out ikkyo and make sure uke lands on his stomach - or face - in a very aikido-nerdy way :)

I have a session with Sensei about this specific topic tonight. Will report :)

All the best

Stefan

All waza have escapes, if uke rolls it's probably because you're too pushy. A better cut and more downward feeling will open other escapes but the roll will not be a natural escape for uke

rugwithlegs
03-09-2017, 03:45 PM
I also find it enlightening to go through the Daito Ryu kata. Ikkajo is not a singular isolated thing, but a group of 24ish techniques including jujigarami, kotegaeshi, shihonage and so on. So, I am not sure if we are to think of ikkyo in isolation.

PeterR
03-09-2017, 03:53 PM
I think in the context of this thread it is the Aikikai terminology that is being referred to. There is no real connection to the Daito-Ryu groupings.

rugwithlegs
03-09-2017, 06:46 PM
I think in the context of this thread it is the Aikikai terminology that is being referred to. There is no real connection to the Daito-Ryu groupings.

You are right.

When I get bogged down in doing a technique, I find it freeing to remember Aikikai is a very new organization. We're referring to a name that is maybe only from the 1940s, maybe even later. My own teacher did show very ikkyo derived stuff that were called kokyunage or koshinage. There are many variations on a theme that Aikikai calls the same name and they all claim similar lineage and history.

When I read a dokka accredited to O Sensei that reads Ikkyo can take your whole life to perfect, I give myself a little license. I feel I get trapped when I try to strictly define a movement as one singular variation and thing. I like ikkyo as I learned it; I learned something different than I was taught for oshitaoshi last weekend when I took a seminar from another organization.

IvLabush
03-10-2017, 12:44 AM
My own teacher did show very ikkyo derived stuff that were called kokyunage or koshinage. There are many variations on a theme that Aikikai calls the same name and they all claim similar lineage and history.
Perhaps you refers to a rumor that Aikido 'kyo' is lessons or ideas but not techniques.

StefanHultberg
03-10-2017, 03:00 AM
Well, after many years of thinking about and tinkering with this specific aikido problem I suppose I must accept one thing - ikkyo can be one tricky technique. Fascinating, though.

After one final session around the problem last night at my club we agree that much can be done to stop the discussed "reverse roll" out of ikkyo. Certainly I am a bit too nice in my general ikkyo training and certainly I am a bit too "pushy", actually encouragning a roll unless uke knows he's supposed to end up on his stomach.

A reverse roll does not necessarily put uke in a better position - so there's no real problem, one has to be aware though that a reverse roll is not always possible to stop - in strict ikkyo. The roll, however, can be easily stopped by going into other techniques, e.g. pulling back on the elbow and going into nikkyo.

In "pure ikkyo" a reverse roll becomes more difficult if one pulls back on the arm a little bit when uke is starting to go down. Also - force more straight down rather that forwards increases the likelihood of uke's head becoming trapped against the ground and therefore precluding any roll - or at least guaranteeing a true "pain in the neck". Being really "violent", basically slamming uke down on his face with the speed of light and the weight of an elephant, may be an effective way to stop the reverse roll, but it is bloody difficult to test realistically :)

Any future suggestions for how to carry out the perfect non-violent, soft and round but controlling, relaxed but failsafe, traditional aikido-certified and completely awsome ikkyo??

All the best

Stefan

grondahl
03-10-2017, 04:06 AM
Any future suggestions for how to carry out the perfect non-violent, soft and round but controlling, relaxed but failsafe, traditional aikido-certified and completely awsome ikkyo??


Take uke where there is no support, apply downward pressure and sit down. If you push against the ear, you leave uke on their feet and in control of their own body. They let you do ikkyo to them.

Also realise that if uke wants to escape, they will, why do you want to do waza on somebody that are retreating.

StefanHultberg
03-10-2017, 11:14 AM
Take uke where there is no support, apply downward pressure and sit down. If you push against the ear, you leave uke on their feet and in control of their own body. They let you do ikkyo to them.

Also realise that if uke wants to escape, they will, why do you want to do waza on somebody that are retreating.

Fair point, even if I'm sure one could come up with some scenarios where one would want to.

I have been bugged by the technical intricacies of of trying to stop uke from rolling even if I can see the combat-strategic advantage of letting uke do the roll if that's what he's hell bent on. There are many possibilities down the roead then, probably simpler and safer than trying to stop the roll.

Go with the flow I suppose.

All the best

Stefan

Rupert Atkinson
06-11-2017, 01:19 AM
If you haven't got their balance ... you have no chance of getting ikkyo. If you truly have their balance ... they have no way to counter.

100% of ikkyo problems are a lack of taking balance, or, uke regaining balance (due to tori error or uke craft) shortly after.

PeterR
06-11-2017, 06:38 AM
If you haven't got their balance ... you have no chance of getting ikkyo. If you truly have their balance ... they have no way to counter.

100% of ikkyo problems are a lack of taking balance, or, uke regaining balance (due to tori error or uke craft) shortly after.

Which begs the question when is ikkyo ikkyo? For me the final pin has nothing to do with the technique. Oshitaoshi (Shodokan parlance) is all about catching and taking balance. Done with proper timing under the correct circumstance it is brutally effective and very very difficult to resist.

Done as a kneeling technique is the only time I practice the straight down and bury version. Here there really is no place for uke to escape to.

Rosinante
06-16-2017, 03:47 PM
Hello altogether,

as a long time practioneer in germany (sorry for my poor language knowledge ;-)) I'm reading and surching a lot of those typical problems with some aikido waza - thanks to YT and other stuff in www it is nowadays a little bit easier ;-)

Two years ago, I found some stuff in YT from Mr. Ryuki Hajime, which I find very helpful - alltough aikido, he is very uncommon in his explanations (and also in his appearance), I think.
Here is an example of his" Ikkyo-version" (starting with explaining from sword (shinai) - the arm-movement beginns at 7:35).
What I found interesting ist, that he goes direct in the line of attac and the contact point is on uke's shomenuchi (and weight) on the way downward and not upward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzBqN-QQ6tw&t=169s

In this form I find, an escape is very diffucult - does anybody eventually know Mr. Hajime and his aikido lineague ? There is a lot of stuff over a decade or more in his channel with some very unusual explanations of - I would say - standard aikido waza, but with no doubt not aikikai or iwama or any other standard I would know.

Best regards from germany
Rosinante

tarik
06-18-2017, 09:35 PM
There are many ways to "escape" ikkyo -- and many ways to stop the escape. There is one particular way to escape ikkyo, though, that I find troubling. Certainly some atemi, good old hair grabbing, a pencil in the nostril could solve the problem, but I'm looking for an elegant, aikido-like solution to my problem.

...snip...

Does anybody have a suggestion on how to optimally stop uke from rolling out of "my" basic ikkyo?
Please let me know if it sounds like I've confused left/right or something else somewhere, damn it's not easy to describe techniques in text !!


Tough talking about things this technical online without hands on, but here's my take.

At your first touch, you should be taking uke and destroying their ability to remain standing without being dependent upon your connection. If you've acheived this, speed or timing is no longer a solution you need to utilize.

I'm often amazed at how much people push upwards on their uke in the process of making techniques, and ikkyo is one of the places where I've seen that the most. Pushing upward invariably means that you're standing uke up rather than the inverse, and uke has many more choices to escape.

FWIW, there are always 'escapes' built into any set of body relationships during technique. It's the nature of these things.

Tarik

asiawide
06-19-2017, 10:04 AM
Tough talking about things this technical online without hands on, but here's my take.

At your first touch, you should be taking uke and destroying their ability to remain standing without being dependent upon your connection. If you've acheived this, speed or timing is no longer a solution you need to utilize.

I'm often amazed at how much people push upwards on their uke in the process of making techniques, and ikkyo is one of the places where I've seen that the most. Pushing upward invariably means that you're standing uke up rather than the inverse, and uke has many more choices to escape.

FWIW, there are always 'escapes' built into any set of body relationships during technique. It's the nature of these things.

Tarik

I think I know what you talk about and it feels like folding uke as if compressing an empty coke can. So all -kyo wazas feel like nikyo. Btw, there are still room for escaping if uke keeps(or at least tries to keep) his own balance. Nage becomes very prone to counter when he folds uke through his arms. So uke can take balance of nage and reverse the waza. I'm not sure it's applicable out of lab(mat) but worthwhile to try. Rupert Atkinson and me were working together with this and he may chime in further discussing.

Jaemin

Ecosamurai
06-19-2017, 04:07 PM
If you haven't got their balance ... you have no chance of getting ikkyo. If you truly have their balance ... they have no way to counter.

100% of ikkyo problems are a lack of taking balance, or, uke regaining balance (due to tori error or uke craft) shortly after.

Exactly what I was going to say, ikkyo isn't much to do with the arm, my teacher often demonstrates it holding your fingertips with a very gentle touch that's taken me almost ten years to begin to approximate.
You can't do that unless you've already got their balance.

john2054
06-19-2017, 05:35 PM
Two ways to escape, by force or skill. force will only work if you are significantly strong enough to overpower uke, and he is unskilled enough to let it happen. And a skillful escape requires compliance to the point of neuralization. Basically they let you apply the technique, and don't resist. This also neutralizes the aggression.... good luck (sorry i meant to say, you let them apply the ikkyo)... grammar mistake....

Rupert Atkinson
06-20-2017, 02:13 PM
I think I know what you talk about and it feels like folding uke as if compressing an empty coke can. So all -kyo wazas feel like nikyo. Btw, there are still room for escaping if uke keeps(or at least tries to keep) his own balance. Nage becomes very prone to counter when he folds uke through his arms. So uke can take balance of nage and reverse the waza. I'm not sure it's applicable out of lab(mat) but worthwhile to try. Rupert Atkinson and me were working together with this and he may chime in further discussing.

Jaemin

Jaemin was my student in Korea for 10 years. Then I left. Then I went back. Jaemin was then a senior programmer at Samsung = smart. Very smart. Probably not many smarter. And he had/has been studying this n that. Aiki / Aunkai / anything. He was/is now my teacher. I am now back in NZ and trying to figure it all out!

tarik
06-26-2017, 02:51 PM
I think I know what you talk about and it feels like folding uke as if compressing an empty coke can. So all -kyo wazas feel like nikyo. Btw, there are still room for escaping if uke keeps(or at least tries to keep) his own balance.

I don't even see it as an escape. My view is that it's not balance that uke needs to keep, but posture (or control of tanden to describe it another way). If they keep their posture, they can easily repair their 'balance' and reverse the relationship, taking back sente (initiative) far deeper into receiving a technique than most people except. I can 'reverse' many people while they are still sinking into the pin after the throw if they've given away too much.

Nage becomes very prone to counter when he folds uke through his arms. So uke can take balance of nage and reverse the waza. I'm not sure it's applicable out of lab(mat) but worthwhile to try.

I think outside the lab requires a different type of experimentation, one that might not be prone to acceptable interactions with those around you. :)

IME with some recent unintentional encounters (not really attacks, but situations) where people accidentally bumped into me, this operated because instead of entirely losing my balance, I kept my alignment, put my foot down in a new place without even thinking about it, and they bounced off of me and I caught them just by reaching out and changing their vector so that they fell back onto balance instead of on the ground. It was both surprising and interesting at the same time because I could feel myself deciding to save them instead of finishing them all in an instant. And none of it looking like technique, because it wasn't.