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leonagastya
02-16-2017, 06:10 AM
Hey everyone, so I'm new here and would just like to ask something. In Aikido we are taught to never hurt an opponent when defending ourselves. Instead in Aikido we want to neutralize the attack using the momentum of the opponent against him/herself without hurting them. But many of the techniques in Aikido , i.e the shihonage or even your basic mae ukemi can have disastrous effects on the opponent if its done incorrectly such as a broken shoulder or arm. And yes I know that in the dojo we are taught to properly do this, but how about for our opponents in a real fight which do not have previous knowledge in Aikido? They will get hurt by the amount of throws and locks we do to them since they won't know how to fall properly. Isn't this going against the peaceful philosophy Aikido is built upon as we are in fact harming other people, and if so what should I do?

Also, sorry for my bad english in this post, english isn't my first language. Moreover, I have limited experience in Aikido as I'm only in the 5th kyu so the things I say here might be solved with experience and the mastering of the art.

Thank you all for reading this far!

Demetrio Cereijo
02-16-2017, 06:28 AM
Training accidents happen.

Regarding the possibility of really hurting people in a real fight with aikido techniques, I'd say the probabilities are so low that you do not need to worry about that.

Amir Krause
02-16-2017, 07:46 AM
I think you should ask this of your teacher. Though, if the philosophy of not hurting others is this important to you, I suspect the only way you can be sure of it is staying put and being hit.

At least for me, I was always taught in a different spirit - the element of not hurting someone whom attacks me was replaced by the idea of giving me control over this hurt as part of the situational control the training provides, no different from many other martial arts. Then again, I am practicing a sister aikido martial art - Korindo Aikido, and not Ueshiba derived Aikido.

From practical self defense point of view, the idea of commiting not to hurt an agrresor is dangerous. And I say this even though I know there are other cases. For example: I do know a fellow trainee whom was able to evade attacks of an enraged younger and larger neighbor until that person got too tired to attack again, I don't think this is a strategy anyone with significant training would recommend , too high risk of an attack succeeding. The person whom defended himself this way said he did try to perform some techniques, but felt it was too risky to himself given the attacker jumping all over, while avoiding the attacks was so easy he didn't even break sweat. I should probably mention that fellow trainee was about Shodan (1st degree Black Belt ) at the time, and in Korindo Aikido we do have some types of sparring practices (we call those Randori, but same name often means a different thing in most Ueshiba derived Aikido).


In the end, I guess the question comes to philosophy Vs practicality in self defense, and the answer for that is with your teacher.

SeiserL
02-16-2017, 08:16 AM
IMHO, any martial art should contain the real possibility/potential of harm/hurt.
I often (simplistically - there is always more to it) think of timing and speed.
A technique done too fast will hit and do harm.
A technique done too slow will be resisted and countered.
A technique at the right speed/time encourages the opponent to cooperate/comply rather than break/hurt.

fatebass21
02-16-2017, 08:21 AM
In any real-life situation where an Aikido technique can be properly executed when an attacker may have no knowledge of Aikido, it would then become your responsibility to know how much pressure/force to apply to it. This is the only way to ensure that there is no undue harm done.

Would you agree?

Walter Martindale
02-16-2017, 09:32 AM
I agree with Amir and Lynn. And with Lynn's comment that it's not a simple question.

I recall reading/hearing that the purpose of a Martial Art is to protect oneself and/or those around one.

To that end, talk rather than fight; run away rather than fight; if you have to interact physically, do as much as necessary with as little harm as possible/necessary to stop the need to interact physically: If you have to immobilize someone do so - if that's not enough (he/she has friends who also have bad intent), hurt them so they are out of the action - if that's not enough, harm them (i.e., break something, render them unconscious) - if that's not enough and you're still at risk of (say) being killed, well... escalate as much as necessary - but not fighting is the best solution.

Going beyond that, in my country, gets a charge of "Excessive use of force."

Attributed to Churchill: 'Jaw, jaw and war, war Jaw, jaw is better than war, war.' 1954, Washington. (Finest Hour 122, 15.)

Winston Churchill's official biographer, Sir Martin Gilbert, speaking of this quote, noted that Churchill actually said, 'Meeting jaw to jaw is better than war.' Four years later, during a visit to Australia, Harold Macmillan said the words usually—and wrongly—attributed to Churchill: “Jaw, jaw is better than war, war.” Credit: Harold Macmillan.

Do people get injured in aikido practice? Yes, I did - occasionally, and far less frequently than when I was practicing judo, but it IS a martial art - and training in a martial art is not without risk. One of my aikido sensei recommended mouthguards - not because we would deliberately bust someone's teeth, but because we're not perfect, and there's always the possibility of walking into someone's fist or elbow when the practice was aimed at not getting hit by the fist or elbow, and dentists cost a lot more than a plastic mouthguard.

PeterR
02-16-2017, 10:09 AM
Training accidents happen.

Regarding the possibility of really hurting people in a real fight with aikido techniques, I'd say the probabilities are so low that you do not need to worry about that.

Well I am not so sure about that - training accidents can give you a window to that.

I think avoiding injury to an aggressor is as elusive as true aiki. Most of ukemi can be put down to a safe escape and it is a mistake to assume that an aggressor is versed in that.

I also don't think avoiding injury to an aggressor at all costs is really a major tenant of aikido - more like going out of your way to cause harm is not.

GovernorSilver
02-16-2017, 12:36 PM
In Aikido we are taught to never hurt an opponent

Are you sure that is what your Aikido teachers are really saying? You should indeed talk to them about that.

At our dojo, I am often corrected in my ukemi for leaving too many openings. For example I didn't grab my partner's wrist correctly, so she elbowed me in the face. Because this was in class, the elbow strike didn't hurt, but it was enough to get the point across. On the street though, if somebody grabbed her wrist with bad intentions, I doubt she would hesitate for even a second to hit his face hard with that elbow. She was one of the many black belts at the dojo.

sorokod
02-16-2017, 05:28 PM
Training accidents happen.

Regarding the possibility of really hurting people in a real fight with aikido techniques, I'd say the probabilities are so low that you do not need to worry about that.

:)

sorokod
02-16-2017, 05:36 PM
... In Aikido we are taught to never hurt an opponent when defending ourselves. Instead in Aikido we want to neutralize the attack using the momentum of the opponent against him/herself without hurting them. But many of the techniques in Aikido , i.e the shihonage or even your basic mae ukemi can have disastrous effects on the opponent if its done incorrectly such as a broken shoulder or arm. And yes I know that in the dojo we are taught to properly do this, but how about for our opponents in a real fight which do not have previous knowledge in Aikido? They will get hurt by the amount of throws and locks we do to them since they won't know how to fall properly. Isn't this going against the peaceful philosophy Aikido is built upon as we are in fact harming other people, and if so what should I do?



Your logic is flawless - don't throw it out of the window just because someone told you to do so.

Peter Goldsbury
02-16-2017, 05:39 PM
Hey everyone, so I'm new here and would just like to ask something. In Aikido we are taught to never hurt an opponent when defending ourselves. Instead in Aikido we want to neutralize the attack using the momentum of the opponent against him/herself without hurting them. But many of the techniques in Aikido , i.e the shihonage or even your basic mae ukemi can have disastrous effects on the opponent if its done incorrectly such as a broken shoulder or arm. And yes I know that in the dojo we are taught to properly do this, but how about for our opponents in a real fight which do not have previous knowledge in Aikido? They will get hurt by the amount of throws and locks we do to them since they won't know how to fall properly. Isn't this going against the peaceful philosophy Aikido is built upon as we are in fact harming other people, and if so what should I do?

Also, sorry for my bad english in this post, english isn't my first language. Moreover, I have limited experience in Aikido as I'm only in the 5th kyu so the things I say here might be solved with experience and the mastering of the art.

Thank you all for reading this far!

Hello,

Aikido is almost inevitably practiced in a definite social and organizational context, for you do not usually go and seek out would-be attackers on the street, in order that you can show them your peaceful intentions.

I suggest you look in the Aikido Journal archives for an article by Stanley Pranin on fatal injuries suffered during aikido training in Japan. There have been such injuries and I think it is undeniable that sometimes people go out of their way to train in a dangerous manner, that causes serious injuries.

rugwithlegs
02-16-2017, 06:01 PM
In most martial arts, there is a force continuum. This is also true for law enforcement. Something like,

Better to not fight than fight
Better to fight and not cause harm than fight and cause harm
Better to cause pain than injure
Better to injure than maim
Better to maim than cripple
Better to cripple than kill

But the hardest of these is to fight and not cause harm.

Read the Darwin awards. People are very fragile. We die easily and stupidly all the time.

I don't remember the quote, so I took liberties. The idea is there.

I do not agree with teachers promise their students that they can avoid harming anyone. In psychiatry, a principle was that we would never restrain a patient without having enough staff for twice the height and twice the weight of the patient being restrained. Aikido does not usually teach working in a group like this. We also do not teach some ways of ending a conflict without injury, like lying, or intimidation, or terrifying a potential assailant to make them back off.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-16-2017, 06:25 PM
I suggest you look in the Aikido Journal archives for an article by Stanley Pranin on fatal injuries suffered during aikido training in Japan. There have been such injuries and I think it is undeniable that sometimes people go out of their way to train in a dangerous manner, that causes serious injuries.

Hello Peter,

If I remember correctly most of these injuries, and in some cases deaths, were related to the hazing of newbies.

Injuring someone who is not fighting back or even resisting is not the same than injuring someone in a fight.

rugwithlegs
02-16-2017, 06:29 PM
Hi Demetrio,

Regardless of how and why, the student is sometimes told that Aikido techniques are intrinsically harmless, instead of being told Aikido students should work towards an ethical standard or having options. I believe those students who believe a movement is harmless are less safe in practice than those who believe every movement can be potentially lethal.

leonagastya
02-16-2017, 06:39 PM
Thank you all for the wonderful responses, they have really helped me resolve this issue that's been bugging me since I first started. I guess a certain amount of pain has to be used to properly defend myself if I'm attacked and as an aikidoka I am responsible for the wellbeing of my opponent. I agree with the fact that I have to master the art before going into any conclusions as by then, I would know the right amount of force to apply to someone which would cause the least amount of pain. But of course I believe that a peaceful solution to end a fight is much better than a violent one.

Thanks everyone again!

sorokod
02-16-2017, 06:50 PM
...as an aikidoka I am responsible for the wellbeing of my opponent.

This is a heavy burden and suggest you think carefully before accepting it.

Peter Goldsbury
02-16-2017, 07:39 PM
Hello Peter,

If I remember correctly most of these injuries, and in some cases deaths, were related to the hazing of newbies.

Injuring someone who is not fighting back or even resisting is not the same than injuring someone in a fight.

Hello Demetrio,

Sure, but you narrowed down the issue to two scenarios: accidents and a 'fight' situation. I have implicitly added a third, which certainly happens in martial arts in Japan, not merely aikido, and reflects the way the arts are practiced here.

I think one issue in a 'fight' situation is whether you can actually do any supposedly 'lethal' waza.

Best wishes,

rugwithlegs
02-16-2017, 08:15 PM
I guess a certain amount of pain has to be used to properly defend myself if I'm attacked...

Thanks everyone again!

At your current level, maybe. If someone is the same size, strength, and speed as you then controlling them without causing any pain is hard. If they are bigger than you and stronger than you, your technique needs to be much better to compensate. Hopefully you can control an angry five year old without causing any pain or injury though.

Riai Maori
02-17-2017, 01:28 AM
I train with Nemoto Sensei at his Dojo in Iwama Japan and he inadvertently hurt my elbow with a technique. I am six foot ex rugby player first Kyu student. One of my first Japanese words learn't in Japan was Ito (sore), so when I trained with his other students they took care on the sore elbow. Other students from my Dojo also suffered similar fates.Part of the journey.

Cass
02-17-2017, 02:49 AM
I agree with what a lot of people are saying, in that the aiki mindset encourages avoidance of fighting as much as possible to a safe extent. I think that would be for many the most difficult thing to stomach, especially after a certain degree of knowledge - to give your phone, money, etc. to someone when you know - or think you know - how to defend yourself, as a highly experienced aikidoka. You have to set aside the ego in that case and I honestly believe many of the yudansha I know would have a hard time doing this. If it is a personal safety scenario though and cannot be avoided - someone seeks to harm you in some way or worse - you ultimately do what you have to. I have heard it repeated many times (in particular on the Aikido reddit) that Kisshomaru once said "My father was not a pacifist". But ultimately, the philosophy, teaching and meanings that you can take from aikido encourage harmony and not destruction, thus the aforementioned approach that I agree with.

Safely neutralizing an attacker becomes difficult here (when others seek to do harm) because there is too much chaos involved. But, I think, with enough training and experience, you can have some "go to" moves that you can perform with as little damage done as possible. Some techniques are by default more difficult to receive safely, even from those that have training (think high fall-requiring techniques). Others can be easier to perform without great injury, techniques like Ikkyo I think are a good example. I think experience and confidence have a part to play in the safe neutralization of your attacker as well here. Several times that my sensei has begun to perform a technique that I had not personally encountered before, I was attacking without knowing what he was going to do. And - even though I was trying to pay attention to his response and was conditioned with knowing the general movements etc. - I would find myself transported without knowing what happened and not by brute force either. Simply one moment I was attacking and the next I was face down on the ground, no pain but also no option to resist somewhere along the way and no real idea what had just happened. I do not know if such a thing is completely possible in a real situation - at the very least, you are not on a tatami but hard ground, there must be at least some discomfort for the attacker, be it they are grazed on the concrete or bruised and sore from the technique.

As an aside, I recall reading some time back, there was a thread that sought the experiences of others using aikido in real life. Most people I am sure expected some sort of great interception of a theft or attacker or something exciting and dramatic, but the vast majority of the responses were along the lines of "I did ukemi when I tripped" or "I got hit by a car as a pedestrian/on a motorbike and safely did an ukemi out of the situation". Think about it in a personal manner as well - unless you come from a very dangerous environment of some sort, how often are you assaulted? Is it a common occurrence? I think most people will never have to use aikido in such a situation, though I do think being prepared can't hurt.

leonagastya
02-17-2017, 04:23 AM
Hopefully you can control an angry five year old without causing any pain or injury though.


Now that is the the ultimate challenge. HAHAHAHAHA

I think that would be for many the most difficult thing to stomach, especially after a certain degree of knowledge - to give your phone, money, etc. to someone when you know - or think you know - how to defend yourself, as a highly experienced aikidoka

Ahhh I see... so in most cases running away and avoiding a fight is better than staying and fighting.

observer
02-17-2017, 06:06 AM
I have heard it repeated many times (in particular on the Aikido reddit) that Kisshomaru once said "My father was not a pacifist".
If this is true (I would be grateful for an indication of a specific source), it is no wonder that aikido, which we practice today, does not make any sense as a martial art. Both Ueshiba's son and Koichi Tohei gave aikido the current shape. The latter, in a private conversation told me personally that he has never understood the intention of O-Sensei and explained that he is not teaching Morihei Ueshiba's art. He use the techniques, he copied from him, to the broader understanding the coordination of mind and body (Shin Shin Toitsu).

My arguments, which I posted on this forum (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24472), clearly show that the unique achievement of O-Sensei is closely linked with the idea of ​​pacifism and gives it real meaning. I will not quote a broader explanation, but for everyone it is clear that a person can not consider himself a pacifist if does not have a choice between hurting someone or not to do it. O-Sensei's Art let to end the fight before it had not yet begun. It makes sense to go back to the roots

Demetrio Cereijo
02-17-2017, 06:39 AM
If this is true (I would be grateful for an indication of a specific source),

IIRC the source is Ellis Amdur, who heard Kisshomaru saying that in a meeting.

Found it;

Ellis Amdur
Member
Member # 402
posted October 13, 2003 12:17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Osensei as Pacifist?
I recall a presentation 2nd Doshu gave to the Japan Martial Arts Society in the 1980's, and someone raised his hand as asked just when it was that Osensei became a pacifist. After the translation, Doshu looked rather puzzled, and asked for clarification, and the question was asked again. Doshu seemed to be suppressing giggles, and said, in effect that his father was never a pacifist, nor was aikido a pacifist practice. "After all, it is a martial art," he said. He then continued on to say, vaguely but accurately that his father created something new, that was outside the dualism of violence and non-violence

The original post seems to be not available because some time ago E-Budo site crashed.

observer
02-17-2017, 07:08 AM
Found it;
Thank you.

sorokod
02-17-2017, 09:23 AM
IIRC the source is Ellis Amdur, who heard Kisshomaru saying that in a meeting.

Found it;
...

I remember liking this quote a lot. Here are two more I filed away during the time this was very much on my mind:

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence.
A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy, he chooses non-violence."

- Yukiyoshi Takamura


"The more evolved one becomes, the more evident it becomes that the strike may not be needed. Yet for the master of Aikido, this is a freely chosen decision. Aikido students who speak so proudly of their art as 'nonviolent' and 'peaceful' are actually referring to the mind of a very highly evolved master who has the internal confidence to nonviolently maintain control of the external influences despite the level of danger.
The irony often lost on those students is that this confidence is a result of having the capability of ending the threat at any moment with one strike.
It is the capability to destroy the threat that grants the Aikido master the luxury of saving the enemy's life. He may simply 'show' the enemy his opening without necessarily exploiting it.
This is a highly evolved level of any martial art which takes years of practice and practical experience. The beginners who claim they are practicing this are, frankly, talking over their heads."

- Shannon Kawika Phelps

GovernorSilver
02-17-2017, 01:28 PM
Ahhh I see... so in most cases running away and avoiding a fight is better than staying and fighting.

That would be part of my approach, even though I'm an inexperienced aikidoka.

My old Miyama Ryu Jujutsu teacher said the best self-defense is "don't be there!". Meaning, don't go to a place where you know you might get attacked. Here in DC in the summer time, that means do not walk (or ride your bicycle) into the middle of of a group of teenage boys after dusk.

observer
02-17-2017, 04:17 PM
My old Miyama Ryu Jujutsu teacher said the best self-defense is "don't be there!".
I would like to be well understood. I understand by self-defense exclusively a respond to a direct attack. I think about the situation, when a man is in the wrong place at the wrong time. In these circumstances, the survival depends on fractions of a second. Thus, when I said that the art of O-Sensei let to end the fight before it had not started yet I thought about the fact that it is the only martial art in which there is no second chance. That is why a competition in this art doesn't make any sense. The reaction to an attack requires dodging and next the execution of a deadly technique. You need to be aware of this from the first contact with this unique martial art, which at this point allows you to make a choice - life or death.

GovernorSilver
02-17-2017, 10:22 PM
I would like to be well understood. I understand by self-defense exclusively a respond to a direct attack. I think about the situation, when a man is in the wrong place at the wrong time. In these circumstances, the survival depends on fractions of a second. Thus, when I said that the art of O-Sensei let to end the fight before it had not started yet I thought about the fact that it is the only martial art in which there is no second chance. That is why a competition in this art doesn't make any sense. The reaction to an attack requires dodging and next the execution of a deadly technique. You need to be aware of this from the first contact with this unique martial art, which at this point allows you to make a choice - life or death.

Unfortunately, everyone that I know in this area who has been attacked on the street was taken by surprise, usually in the evening or later in warm weather. The victim was either suddenly surrounded and attacked, or attacked from an unexpected angle (like from behind). The attackers are usually bored teenagers on summer vacation.

A typical place to attack somebody is on board a Metro train car or on a bike trail where there's fencing on both sides so it's difficult for the victim to escape. This is where the "don't be there!" rule particularly applies. BTW, I had a coworker who was attacked by 8-10 teenagers on such a bike trail, while riding his bike home from work. He suffered broken ribs and damage to the bone around the eye. I've ridden that trail myself after work. I learned from his experience to simply turn around if I come across a group of young men after dark on that trail - the "don't be there" rule.

Craziest series of incidents was the kid who ran around hitting people on the head with a hammer. His attacks were completely random. I think he killed 4 people and seriously injured others before he was finally caught.

observer
02-18-2017, 03:29 AM
Unfortunately, everyone that I know in this area who has been attacked on the street was taken by surprise, .....
I appreciate your post but my comments do not concern the deepening of frustration. For many years I repeat, that the art of O-Sensei is a simple skill, based on trained reflexes. No one learns a foreign language, to talk to everyone. He uses it when the need arises. So many people spend years in the dojo to sustain any illusions instead of developing the precise only one response to each of nine potential directions of an attack. I am talking about only six techniques out of twelve for the selection. I know that this process is boring, therefore rather I recommend music as a background in place of varieties as Suwariwaza or weapon's training.

GovernorSilver
02-19-2017, 04:16 PM
I appreciate your post but my comments do not concern the deepening of frustration.

That's good, because I am not experiencing a "deepening of frustration".

I started Aikido training with the full understanding that I will not have magical O-Sensei powers overnight. :D

Anyway, the OP seems satisfied with the answers to his question implied in the statement:

"running away and avoiding a fight is better than staying and fighting."

observer
02-19-2017, 07:24 PM
Anyway, the OP seems satisfied with the answers to his question implied in the statement: "running away and avoiding a fight is better than staying and fighting."
Of course I agree with that but then what if you are not able to do that? As I mentioned, you'll find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. And what next?

BTW. I do not believe in the magical power of O-Sensei. He just possessed certain skills at a certain time, because he knew what he wanted. This can not be said today about the majority of aikido practitioners.

GovernorSilver
02-19-2017, 08:05 PM
Of course I agree with that but then what if you are not able to do that? As I mentioned, you'll find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. And what next?


That is why we train, right? At least those of us who want to use Aikido for self-defense.

But you should also offer your thoughts to the OP, because he asked the question not me.


BTW. I do not believe in the magical power of O-Sensei.

Aikiweb humor.

observer
02-20-2017, 03:47 AM
That is why we train, right? At least those of us who want to use Aikido for self-defense.
And that is the problem. I do not know of such a dojo in which aikido is practiced for self-defense. I agree with those who suggest that the opponent on the street do not usually know ukemi and in case of a sudden collapse will experience at least injury. This is unacceptable from the point of view of the law. That is why I suggest a return to the roots and to devote aikido training as repetitions of techniques to obtain a reflex response to the attack. All of the techniques should be performed in order to retain full control of the safe fall of the partner. There can not be two standards of performing techniques, that is, one with a partner in the dojo, and the second for intruders on the street.

leonagastya
02-20-2017, 09:42 AM
I agree with those who suggest that the opponent on the street do not usually know ukemi and in case of a sudden collapse will experience at least injury

Like what my previous teachers have said before, to know that you have truly mastered Aikido is when you are able to practice it on someone new and prevent them from getting hurt. And I think that this philosophy should be brought into our daily practice as it will ensure that we will only bring the necessary amount of pain to neutralize our opponents. If I do not then I will hurt someone accidentally in the process. I accidentally did this after I hurt a new person's shoulder after getting her into a position to do mae ukemi and I guess these are the things we have to watch out for whenever we are being confronted with someone less experienced than us. So thank you for your opinionand comments on this thread as it helps reinforce my stance on this subject !

GovernorSilver
02-20-2017, 01:04 PM
And that is the problem. I do not know of such a dojo in which aikido is practiced for self-defense.

Every aikido dojo I've seen teaches defense against wrist grabs, at least. You don't consider that to be self defense?

GovernorSilver
02-20-2017, 01:08 PM
Like what my previous teachers have said before, to know that you have truly mastered Aikido is when you are able to practice it on someone new and prevent them from getting hurt. And I think that this philosophy should be brought into our daily practice as it will ensure that we will only bring the necessary amount of pain to neutralize our opponents. If I do not then I will hurt someone accidentally in the process. I accidentally did this after I hurt a new person's shoulder after getting her into a position to do mae ukemi and I guess these are the things we have to watch out for whenever we are being confronted with someone less experienced than us. So thank you for your opinionand comments on this thread as it helps reinforce my stance on this subject !

Now that the experienced aikidoka have said that defending yourself using Aikido, without hurting your attacker, is more of an ideal than a realistic possibility, will you continue Aikido or will you quit studying it?

Sorry about the injury to your uke. That's something I think about too. In training, I concentrate more on trying to get the movement right and moving with whole-body structure, than trying to do the waza with speed and power. Even with that, I still get told once in a while to ease up.

observer
02-20-2017, 01:59 PM
Every aikido dojo I've seen teaches defense against wrist grabs, at least. You don't consider that to be self defense?
I think that I am neither taller nor heavier or stronger than you. But believe me, if in the dojo I grab your wrist, you will not be able to perform any aikido's technique. What you learn today in dojo, it is not self-defense. This is just an illusion of self-defense. ;)

PeterR
02-20-2017, 02:22 PM
I think that I am neither taller nor heavier or stronger than you. But believe me, if in the dojo I grab your wrist, you will not be able to perform any aikido's technique. What you learn today in dojo, it is not self-defense. This is just an illusion of self-defense. ;)

Harumph. Not sure what is limited here.

GovernorSilver
02-20-2017, 02:27 PM
I think that I am neither taller nor heavier or stronger than you. But believe me, if in the dojo I grab your wrist, you will not be able to perform any aikido's technique. What you learn today in dojo, it is not self-defense. This is just an illusion of self-defense. ;)

I will be happy to try, in the spirit of friendly Aikido training. Let me know when you come to the DC area. I will let you know the same when I get out to your part of California.

I was shorter/lighter than most of the attendees at the Ikeda/Ledyard weekend seminar that I just attended. At first, most of us uke easily moved for our nage. When we realized Ikeda-sensei wanted more resistance ("when you connect yourself and make line, partner goes. He doesn't need to fall for you") things got more fun and interesting. By the end of the seminar, we were all moving whoever grabbed us, even me, with two guys grabbing my arm as hard as they can. As a smaller guy, ikkyo movement is one of my best friends against the wrist grab.

Experienced aikidoka will probably correct me or whatever, but I find wrist grab defense to be legitimate self-defense. If an attacker grabs my wrist with one hand he is likely setting me up for a punch with the other hand. If the attacker grabs a woman's wrist, he is likely intending to do the same thing, plus something much worse. We sometimes practice in the dojo with uke grabbing nage's wrist then punching nage's face, so nage has to guard with the free hand.

One of the real-life attacks on me was a double-hand wrist grab by a drunk guy who wanted to pull me into a mosh pit. If you know what a mosh pit is, you know why not everybody wants to jump into it. Unfortunately I didn't practice martial arts at the time so it ended up being a muscular pulling contest that I lost, and then I had to run as soon as he released his grip. In another scenario, my attacker could have pulled me with a double-hand grab into a group of his friends waiting to pounce on me. So defense against double-hand grab on the wrist is also quite useful.

I've been told other reasons we practice w/ wrist grabs, but it's beyond my experience level. The experienced aikidoka can explain this much better than me.

GovernorSilver
02-20-2017, 03:00 PM
As a smaller guy, ikkyo movement is one of my best friends against the wrist grab.

To clarify, ikkyo is my friend when I do it right. That means letting the arms relax, letting my weight get under the weight of my uke(s) by sinking my hips if necessary, etc. etc etc. If possible, try to let uke's force travel through the body down to the foot by relaxing the upper body - this makes everything easier.

Of course I would prefer to meet whoever at either my dojo or his/hers to just playing somewhere "off mat", because I suck at Aikido and my sempai/sensei would do a far, far better job of sharing our expression of Aikido.

observer
02-20-2017, 03:06 PM
The experienced aikidoka can explain this much better than me.
I think that I belong to such and clearly stated my point of view (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24472) on this.

GovernorSilver
02-20-2017, 03:28 PM
I think that I belong to such and clearly stated my point of view (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24472) on this.

Thank you. I will read after training. It's almost time for me to get ready to go to Aikido classes today.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-20-2017, 03:30 PM
.. I find wrist grab defense to be legitimate self-defense.
Sure it is.

But be careful, not every aikido technique where uke goes for the wrist grab is a viable self defense technique.

GovernorSilver
02-20-2017, 11:22 PM
Sure it is.

But be careful, not every aikido technique where uke goes for the wrist grab is a viable self defense technique.

Thank you. It has been quite educational to see/hear what more experienced aikidoka think is viable waza to use. I recently saw the vid in which one showed 3 waza he would never use as a bouncer, and explained his opinions.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-21-2017, 06:45 AM
I recently saw the vid in which one showed 3 waza he would never use as a bouncer, and explained his opinions.
Do you have the link at hand?

leonagastya
02-21-2017, 07:00 AM
Now that the experienced aikidoka have said that defending yourself using Aikido, without hurting your attacker, is more of an ideal than a realistic possibility, will you continue Aikido or will you quit studying it?

I will continue doing Aikido with this mindset in hand as I still love the martial art. I am grateful for all of you that changed my mindset as the previous one might hurt my ability to defend myself if a fight breaks out.

PeterR
02-21-2017, 09:25 AM
I think that I belong to such and clearly stated my point of view (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24472) on this.
My view on that post has not changed either (Wow) but re-reading it the only thing that comes to mind is "What are the 12 techniques unique to aikido?". I personally can not think of one.

GovernorSilver
02-21-2017, 10:28 AM
Do you have the link at hand?

I can't find it anymore. It was one of the videos on the Aikidoflow channel. That Azu is an entertaining fellow.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClhLazRwMSdXeF-MBFUo4gg/videos

Oh, it's this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPGNyN4iFco

observer
02-21-2017, 10:33 AM
My view on that post has not changed either (Wow) but re-reading it the only thing that comes to mind is "What are the 12 techniques unique to aikido?". I personally can not think of one.
Here they are:
Ikkyo,
Nikyo,
Sankyo,
Yonkyo,
Irimi-nage,
Shiho-nage,
Kote-gaeshi,
Tenchi-nage,
Udekime-nage,
Kaiten-nage,
Juji-nage,
Koshi-nage.

It is no wonder that you do not perceive them as unique. Currently, they have been modified so that they can not be implemented without cooperation of the partner. Indeed, all of these techniques may be performed without taking your partner out of balance. Just make him climb up on his toes. This is the purpose of pins in the performance of some of them. Not in order to cause a pain, but in order to let him avoid it.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-21-2017, 11:01 AM
I can't find it anymore. It was one of the videos on the Aikidoflow channel. That Azu is an entertaining fellow.
Thanks.

Funny fact: the most awesome juji nage done to me was by a rookie cop drilling gun retention from low ready stance.

GovernorSilver
02-21-2017, 12:54 PM
I will continue doing Aikido with this mindset in hand as I still love the martial art. I am grateful for all of you that changed my mindset as the previous one might hurt my ability to defend myself if a fight breaks out.

:cool:

Last night on the train ride home from Aikido class, I read in the book "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" that to defend oneself without hurting the attacker is one of the highest level skills in the art - something that we may not be able to achieve right this moment, but we can aspire to in our training, whether it takes us 4 years or 40 or whatever to get there.

leonagastya
02-22-2017, 08:30 AM
Well that is a very insightful comment Paolo. I also have read the book and I can definitely recommend it as a good read. I've also encountered the quote that you said in your comment and that has been my ultimate goal in Aikido. To be good enough in the martial art so I'm able to defend myself without causing unnecessary harm to my attackers. I know this would take a lot of effort and time but it is something I have striven over the short time I have practiced Aikido.