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MrIggy
04-22-2016, 10:57 PM
I was wondering what would be the overall opinion here on this guy's videos, i will start with some of his latest material:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBVpACTn4vg - AIKIDO PPF - Shihonage part# 1of 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMXWyMi-w4c - SHIHONAGE - PPF part #2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGzasCW-FHg - PPF part#3 Combative Concepts Shihonage.

Demetrio Cereijo
04-23-2016, 07:42 PM
Lots of talking and demoing with a compliant uke. I'm not amused.

MrIggy
04-23-2016, 09:46 PM
Lots of talking and demoing with a compliant uke. I'm not amused.

Well, that's how most Aikido demonstrations are done, maybe some comments on his overall technique?

grondahl
04-24-2016, 07:01 AM
Whats your opinion on the vids? My first impression: no kuzushi and to much pain compliance.

Demetrio Cereijo
04-24-2016, 01:42 PM
Well, that's how most Aikido demonstrations are done, maybe some comments on his overall technique?

Technically resembles Hollywood/Seagal style. Looks "realistic" but it is highly dependant on uke playing his predefined role so, IMO, what is seen in the clips is more about acting skills than to combative skills.

Ketsan
04-24-2016, 07:11 PM
Meh.

I find myself watching his videos, and for what they are they're okay, but one thing I wonder about is his attitude that there's a real difference between "traditional" ways of doing things and his combative concepts. Often what I see is just different ability levels or just different ways of doing a technique that I might do during the course of one session, or even with just one training partner. It seems odd to me that he thinks of there being one correct way or one way that is indicative of a school or style.

tim evans
04-24-2016, 10:38 PM
his other videos on why aikido doesn't work sparked a lot of FB debate recently ID post them but don't know how

Anjisan
04-25-2016, 07:37 PM
Regarding Sly's videos, I find them to have some useful information but certainly not gospel by any means. It's not that there is that much difference between " Traditional" aikido and the "Tenshin" variation with the exception of Tenshin having a much stronger "down" (break fall) component where as "some" traditional teachings emphasize more projecting and Tenshin seems more defense focused. I can see that in a self defense situation one should at least have throwing someone in a break fall in one's repertoire because a conflict can be violent (as in quick) and break falls allow one to place the attack quickly on the ground at ones feet so that cannot get up and attack again. The aikido principals are all there for both Traditional and Tenshin as far as I can tell..

Ironically, I believe that often projecting someone would cause more severe injury than a break fall, yet there are those in the traditional community who believe they are actually being more gentle. I certainly understand the aversion to break falls which Sly seems to favor as they may be more intimidating for Ukemi for some and less inclusive.

However, even though there isn't that much difference between Traditional aikido and a more self-defense focused style like Tenshin or a strictly street application like Combative Concepts, one does have to train self-defense applications. The light bulb doesn't simply just go on unless one focuses on it. Research has consistently shown that under pressure people tend to execute as they practice.

The Combative Concepts is strictly street defense and seems to lack flow so it seems unfair to compare it to aikido per se. Although it's quite possible that the amount of energy one may see in many street attacks is probably far less than is experienced in many traditional aikido dojos though. Probably not a lot of traditional step through punches, showmen-uchi's or ushiro attacks being carried out on American streets. One has to be able to adapt to that and one probably can't wait until one is defending oneself or others to realize that. Sure the Uke's are compliant but considering the type of break falls that are required in both the Tenshin and in his Combative Concepts variation it would seem foolish to do otherwise. Unless one wants it to be a very very short demonstration video and burn through one's Uke's quickly.

Concerning Seagal, the attacks in Sly's videos seem to be more on the static end of the continuum for his demonstration videos. Quite possibly by design so he can talk. Not sure. In contrast, Seagal's Hollywood movies seem closer to his actual aikido that he demonstrated back in the 70's in
The Path Beyond Thought which I believe is on YouTube.

It seems taking break falls can fall into one of 3 categories: 1) break fall is executed without regard to Uke as on the battlefield of medieval Japan or for some the modern street; 2) the Uke consciously takes the break fall to avoid injury or puts themselves in a positon so they are minimizing resistance (Sly's Ukes); or 3) Nage manipulates Uke into a positon where they are just thrown into a break fall without injury from the throw per se but there could be from the landing if one doesn't know how to land (many but not all of Seagal's throws in the PBT- specifically when he was in Japan).

Train Hard.
Jason:ai:

Tim Ruijs
04-28-2016, 07:10 AM
meh... :confused:

JP3
04-29-2016, 04:14 PM
I'd say that Sly's technique is quite nice and clean in the "traditional" video, but when he moved into the Combative Concepts version he is actually going to get his people in trouble with Mr. Police Officer watching the security camera later.

Listen to what he said... again this is my opinion, and I personally liked what he was doing froma pure combat/self-defense standpoint (though I may do the knee kick with a Thai leg-kick myself, but that's just me and that's not my problem).

At the outset, starting from bad-guy hand grab, and the comment about the guy grabbing and immediately punching or otherwise attacking is dead-on to what we talk aobut all the time, there is a Reason a bad guy is grabbing that wrist, and it's not to hold hands. I'm good witht he work in, removing one hand and going up/around the neck and dropping the guy, but then IMO he slips from a defensive role into an aggressor role when he has the guy dropped and arm bar held, then he says break the arm and stomp the face and walk away.

All of that is good from a purely self-defense and combat tactics POV, but it simply crosses the line out of self-defense when the opponent is both down and controlled and then he takes it not one, bu two steps past it.

It does make for a more than decent demo video though. Maybe I'm hyper-sensitive to the legal side for some reason.

On a different note, having a non-cooperative uke makes for very bad demonstrations as one can't ever do the technique trying to be done, as the uke knows what's supposed to be coming.

JP3
04-29-2016, 06:45 PM
I went looking for more of Lenny Sly's video, and I found this video where he talks a bit more with Mr. Dominick Izzo (Wing Chun background) about his.... philosophy, why he does what he does.

I'm unsurprised to find that he's a bar-bouncer background (same here) and while his instructional talk with Mr. Izzo is pretty ... umm... rough & ready, yes let's just call it that ... I generally agree with the points made if not the manner in which they are presented -- and I do the same thing and approach training the same way (maybe not quite so over the top violently with the students - else you end up without such students), generally speaking (and I think, based only on what he himself said in the video). I may spend more time in "the basics" so to speak as my own aikido comes from the Tomiki background vs. the other families (I noted he didn't mention that, at least I didn't find it yet). No slam on other aikido groups either, y'all, we're just a bit different in that way.

Here's the other vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY_0KRiSJWk

I note that Mr. Sly (aikido) and Mr. Izzo (Wing Chun) are apparently working together now to promote each other via the Rogue Warrior Training Compound (neat nomiker), which you can find info about here:

http://roguewarriorstraining.com/operations/

Those things being said... I think he's promoting himself, meaning there is a financial influence at work here. I am pretty sure he knows his stuff and presenting the image to gain. This is the USA, there's no problem with that. I don't do it, but hey...

rugwithlegs
04-29-2016, 07:37 PM
First guideline of practice in Aikido from O Sensei was that Aikido is a lethal art. I will play for some of these insights - we do standing pins with one or both hands free and why? Not style points. If we are to call ourselves martial, then these extra layers of frosting on basic technique should not be a surprise. It's not all there is to practice for me.

I agree with John.

Entering a practice like Tanto dori, one teacher showed lower ranks to break the elbow immediately, let the knife fall, and run away. Higher ranks, more control until the knife was taken without even throwing or any injury inflicted if possible - but kime and atemi were practiced for much longer. His philosophy, but also legally defensible. Stay safe, then just do what is necessary.

Another teacher didn't like kime or atemi, but wanted all Tanto dori to finish by slashing the brachial artery of someone disarmed and helpless pinned face down. Mutilating, possibly maiming, possibly killing someone helpless and defenseless at that second in time. I never bent my brain around it, and my main teacher would not have supported it.

The work looks inspired by ninjutsu, at least in demos that I have seen. It's not material I haven't seen before. If he wasn't talking, the video would be half the length. The insights in his demo are valid IMO, but not how I would fight or train usually.

MrIggy
05-20-2016, 12:40 AM
Whats your opinion on the vids? My first impression: no kuzushi and to much pain compliance.

Thought's on the first video:

The first thing that i have to point out is the fact that he claims that "projection of techniques" is sort of a technical necessity in "traditional" Aikido. I mean damn, if somebody want's to slam somebody else to the ground there are no technical prerequisites for that other then to simply finish the previously successfully executed technique. Off course there are some tactical,and other, reasons for the "projection of techniques" but that's another story. At 6:38 when he actually starts to execute the technique he makes a good call on what is not proper execution, but again at 7:22 he makes a mistake by not dropping his hips and has to bend his back in order to get Uke's hand over him. Doing that he compromises his posture. The way he executes the technique is also particular. It's always taught to bend Uke's arm behind his head, like O'Sensei in the picture http://blog.aikidojournal.com/media/shomenuchi-moriihei-ueshiba.jpg rather then going outwards because you can seriously hurt Uke or some attacker, but if that's what you want then you can do that but it's not a technical specification of a certain style it's a precautionary approach.At 8:26 he actually makes a point of not going behind Uke's head because "you can't make people breakfall". I am not sure about his understandings on the basics of Ukemi in Aikido or human nature for that matter. In general i don't like the way his Uke attacks with Yokomenuchi, the way he moves his hand is simply wrong in my opinion.

Second video:

Again with the projection talk at the very beginning of the video and the so called "Tenshin application" and off course the Uke with the wrong type of hand attack. From 3:06 to 7:30 he shows a series of movements that, in my opinion, aren't necessary for the execution of the Yokomenuchi Shihonage technique. To many transitions would cause trouble in a serious situation, again that's my oppinion. At 7:30 he shows a variation of the Katatedori execution of Shihonage, with droping the Uke straight down aka back fall, which again,is not something only he or others from the Tenshin Dojo do. From 8:01 to 9:15 he talks about bending the wrist so that the Uke can't get a full firm grip, again something that is normal practice in "traditional" Aikido but i can say that the importance of it is not stressed enough so his emphasizing of the move is a very good approach. At 9:50 he mentions the spirals in movements which is excellent because it's not something that most people notice. The only difference is that he keeps taking Uke's hand outwards, which is dangerous even in simple training. I like the fact that, from 11:20 to 12:20, he stresses out the importance of timing and speed in the execution of Nikkyo i also like the variation at 12:40.At 3:03 he points out that you have to watch out for the elbow which is a good thing but you can end that situation with the basic Sankyo Ura technique, you don't have to transition again to Shihonage. The approach from 15:05 to 16:05 is much better in my opinion. In general there are to many transitions in execution of techniques. I know that on a higher level transitions are necessary but he takes it a bit to far.

Third video (Combative concepts):

At 4:00 again with the "traditional" Aikido talk. At 4:08 i don't understand what he actually says, does the person grab you and doesn't let go or does he grab and then let's go of you before you grab them. If it's the first thing then i don't understand what he doesn't get about Tai no Henko in that situation. After that he mentions punching in the face from Katatedori and how it's "never done in Aikido", the whole point of that type of attack is for him to grab your wrist so you can't raise your hand and put up a guard. In the old days it was done so that you can't draw your sword. I actually punched someone like that because their reaction was slow, i agree that it's rarely done to actually punch someone but if his reactions are slow then you need to raise the intensity a bit otherwise they will never improve. I don't understand why he doesn't stomp the attacker in the knee with the closer left foot rather then the farther right foot. Again i don't get why he simply doesn't execute the Shihonage instead of going for the hip throw. It's more difficult to execute the hip throw from that position. I like it as a variation but i just don't see the point. At 7:05 is a good tip for policeman. As for the hook punch, the yokomen entry can also be used for that but that's another story. At 8:20 i have to admit that i haven't seen that type of grab in Aikido before, again he transitions to much, i haven't seen that type of interlocking that he shows and i don't like the way he does it with the index fingers, he could have just wen't a basic palm over palm grip. At 11:30 he uses the same grip for the hip throw, i like the idea but i think that in that situation he is more likely to break somebody's hand then to throw them. I don't wan't to comment the stick application part.

All in all the guy knows what he is doing but most of it, if not all except the grip interlocking in the last video, is not something i haven't seen before. What i don't like about the way he does the techniques is the fact the uses to much power in his execution. Also he deliberately uses more dangerous movements, like for Shihonage, because of "higher efficiency" when those moves could seriously injure or even kill somebody.

JP3
05-20-2016, 05:55 PM
MrIggy said, "What i don't like about the way he does the techniques is the fact the uses to much power in his execution. Also he deliberately uses more dangerous movements, like for Shihonage, because of "higher efficiency" when those moves could seriously injure or even kill somebody."

Both points, agreed. But, it's a personal style thing, I think. We can always ramp-up the power should we choose, but the "art" is to not have to do so, so, practice should in my opinion be about learning how to do the techniques better and better, which means by using less and less power in order to get better results (efficiency). That's where the really good and scary people are, the people who feel like they are kicking your ass with butterflies.

MrIggy
05-29-2016, 10:31 AM
Here's a good video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlgOPFrH258 , practices like this are seldom seen in most dojo's.

PeterR
05-29-2016, 12:28 PM
That's because its a demo - not practice

MrIggy
05-29-2016, 04:57 PM
Yes but it's a good demo.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-30-2016, 06:33 AM
At 8:20 i have to admit that i haven't seen that type of grab in Aikido before, again he transitions to much, i haven't seen that type of interlocking that he shows and i don't like the way he does it with the index fingers, he could have just wen't a basic palm over palm grip. At 11:30 he uses the same grip for the hip throw,

The interlocking is legit, and in some cases more useful than the classic palm over palm or gable grip but he's doing it wrong. It seems to me he is more interested in looking cool than in effective and efficient movement. Image over substance, a very common problem in Aikido.

Keith Larman
06-01-2016, 12:03 PM
In one of those long sequences I kept expecting him to say "Then you restomp the groin."

There's a difference between being able to smoothly adjust and transition from technique to technique as the interaction changes vs. training in long sequences that are unlikely at best to work out quite so well without a compliant partner. The prior comes about as a result of a lot of training and hard work that rarely repeats itself, while the latter, in my experience at least, rarely gets you very far. That said the latter is still practice and practice is what we all need.

Looks cool. And it's all practice. That said... Not sure what else to say about it.

Alec Corper
06-05-2016, 03:04 AM
Tries too hard to be tough. Still staged demo, techniques well rehearsed, maybe future movie choreographer, no aiki. Mwah

ryback
06-05-2016, 04:21 PM
I have seen all of his videos, and in my opinion he is very, very good. I have not seen more fast and effective Aikido since Steven Seagal Sensei, although he is clearly not as close to perfection as Seagal is, but he is surely the next best thing.

The thing I don't like is his attitude and the way he talks, although he is right in many things, it is not the attitude of the warrior as I see it, or it ain't my cup of tea anyway, but technically he is very skilled, it's the approach that I try to have and it's the direction that I feel is the healthiest for Aikido.

Demetrio Cereijo
06-06-2016, 02:56 AM
I have seen all of his videos, and in my opinion he is very, very good. I have not seen more fast and effective Aikido since Steven Seagal Sensei,

How have you determined Sly's effectiveness?

Currawong
06-06-2016, 07:29 AM
I reckon he could do with less yakking on (and ditch the unnecessary swearing) and just get to the point faster. The points he does have, based on what seems to be fast, no-mucking-about self-defence that comes from his experience, what he says makes reasonable enough sense to me. For example, where I've practiced Aikido, there has been no training for common modern attacks, like sucker punches or swings, and in a real situation, any techniques are going to have to executed extremely fast and very directly to be effective.

MrIggy
06-06-2016, 11:29 AM
I reckon he could do with less yakking on (and ditch the unnecessary swearing) and just get to the point faster. The points he does have, based on what seems to be fast, no-mucking-about self-defence that comes from his experience, what he says makes reasonable enough sense to me. For example, where I've practiced Aikido, there has been no training for common modern attacks, like sucker punches or swings, and in a real situation, any techniques are going to have to executed extremely fast and very directly to be effective.

Please explain how would you technically train against a sucker punch?! Anybody can get sucker punched if they are careless or simply unaware of what is happening around them?

Please define a swing because from what i understand yokomenuchi is basically a defense against a swing, be it empty handed or with a weapon.

rugwithlegs
06-06-2016, 12:22 PM
The thing I don't like is his attitude and the way he talks, although he is right in many things, it is not the attitude of the warrior as I see it, or it ain't my cup of tea anyway, but technically he is very skilled, it's the approach that I try to have and it's the direction that I feel is the healthiest for Aikido.

To commit to a martial art is to commit to following a Sensei and a dojo for an extended period of time.

I also am interested in what he shows, but for the number of times I have felt it necessary to stamp on the groin or head of someone already on the ground (ain't happened yet) I am not willing to commit all my spare time and spare money, take time off of other pursuits and away from my wife or other friends, to sit and listen to him. Someday I may say that is my loss.

How to train for a sucker punch? Work on Maai. Work on not being surprised. Work on being perceptive. Big part of other martial arts.

kewms
06-06-2016, 01:56 PM
Please explain how would you technically train against a sucker punch?! Anybody can get sucker punched if they are careless or simply unaware of what is happening around them?

What kind of martial artist views "careless" and "unaware" as acceptable states?

And if you are careless and unaware, why on earth would you expect any technique to be available in time?

Katherine

Currawong
06-07-2016, 04:23 AM
Please define a swing because from what i understand yokomenuchi is basically a defense against a swing, be it empty handed or with a weapon.

Yokomenuchi starts as a sword cut from above the head, but goes in a curve to cut at an angle, instead of straight. Youtube can educate you as to the types of punches seen in fights, but they don't look like yokomenuchi.

This is why I'm interested in this kind of training, coming from someone who has been attacked enough times as a bouncer or police officer, for example, and hence why I'm interested in Sly's videos.

MrIggy
06-07-2016, 08:10 AM
What kind of martial artist views "careless" and "unaware" as acceptable states?

Most people, who train in martial arts, are not the primary example of a warrior with all of the psychological traits. The fact is you could be walking down the street thinking about your job, family, training and somebody comes up to you and says "Excuse me. My phone battery died. Can you tell me what time it is?" you say "Sure, it's..." BAM. You wouldn't even know what hit you. Not to mention other situations, after drinks, exhaustion after a hard training, day at the job etc. Even in the old days warriors where killed in ambushes.

And if you are careless and unaware, why on earth would you expect any technique to be available in time?

Certain techniques like Ikkyo are always available. What i was asking is how would he technically train against a sucker punch not what specific technique he could use. The fact is anybody can be punched like that, the only thing you can do is work on your movement, body positioning, so you don't stand right in front of somebody on the street, Maai or distance between you and the person you are talking to and most importantly to get your hands up as fast as possible. Again these aren't some technical specifics just some pointers which again don't have to actually make a difference but can come in handy.

Demetrio Cereijo
06-07-2016, 11:27 AM
This is why I'm interested in this kind of training, coming from someone who has been attacked enough times as a bouncer or police officer, for example, and hence why I'm interested in Sly's videos.
If you want to learn how to deal with common attacks you need to train with people who throw them at you in an alive environment. Sly's videos are going to be as useful for that purpose.as watching The Matrix for learning Kung Fu.

MrIggy
06-07-2016, 11:29 AM
Yokomenuchi starts as a sword cut from above the head, but goes in a curve to cut at an angle, instead of straight.

That's a good explanation of the correct technical execution of the Yokomenuchi attack, but what i was referring to was the entry. If we are talking about a swing and not a hook punch the entry, sankaku tai, that serves to stop a Yokomenuchi can stop a swing punch because with a swing punch the attacker has to open his guard more in order to gather more momentum in the punch which means opening in the shoulder and elbow. It's a double edged sword, the more you open the more force you will have but also the greater chance is that your opponent can counter you. Mike Tyson used that punch many times in his matches, everybody would call them hooks because they didn't know any better, he would also get countered many times but that didn't do him any harm and his opponents where usually knocked out because of the massive force that he would gather and off course because he was a strong ferocious puncher.

kewms
06-08-2016, 01:34 PM
Most people, who train in martial arts, are not the primary example of a warrior with all of the psychological traits. The fact is you could be walking down the street thinking about your job, family, training and somebody comes up to you and says "Excuse me. My phone battery died. Can you tell me what time it is?" you say "Sure, it's..." BAM. You wouldn't even know what hit you. Not to mention other situations, after drinks, exhaustion after a hard training, day at the job etc. Even in the old days warriors where killed in ambushes.

Sure, but isn't the whole idea to avoid such lapses of attention?


Certain techniques like Ikkyo are always available. What i was asking is how would he technically train against a sucker punch not what specific technique he could use. The fact is anybody can be punched like that, the only thing you can do is work on your movement, body positioning, so you don't stand right in front of somebody on the street, Maai or distance between you and the person you are talking to and most importantly to get your hands up as fast as possible.

If you're managing distance and body positioning, then by definition you're not "careless" and "unaware."

And ikkyo absolutely is not going to be available to defend against a true sucker punch that you don't see coming. You throw your hands up in a "flinch" reaction and the attack drives right through them.

Katherine

MrIggy
06-08-2016, 08:38 PM
Sure, but isn't the whole idea to avoid such lapses of attention?

Yes, but that doesn't mean that you develop biological resistance to such situations. Like i said, even in the old days warriors where killed in ambushes.

If you're managing distance and body positioning, then by definition you're not "careless" and "unaware."

Neither did i say that. What i said was that those are some pointers which again don't have to actually make a difference but can come in handy.

And ikkyo absolutely is not going to be available to defend against a true sucker punch that you don't see coming. You throw your hands up in a "flinch" reaction and the attack drives right through them.


Like i said, some techniques, like Ikkyo, are always available. The fact is that you can't defend yourself against a sucker punch but you can defend yourself in the aftermath if the attacker doesn't simply wan't to hit and run (or hit, steal and run). Also raising your hands can indeed prevent your attacker from landing a second and third punch and help you create distance from him/her by landing a couple of punches of you own or by simply pushing them away. I know this from experience.

jonreading
06-09-2016, 11:55 AM
I think Katherine is trying to point out that you are describing a "whotif" scenario that probably has no answer because of the way the scenario is constructed. Yes, people are vulnerable to well-planned surprise attacks. Hope for luck and recover as quickly as possible.

For me, I advocate individuals who intend to get into physical confrontation need to participant in sparring. Mostly, you need to get used to the discomfort and affect fighting has on your body - hormones, pain, injury, fatigue, vision, hearing, balance. Even the best trained sport fighters can walk into a punch that ends the fight. To consider a scenario where you first take an undefended blow (kick or punch) and then react from that is a fight scenario for which most of us are not trained.

Also, I am not sure I would say that ikkyo is always available. Nor does hands up = ikkyo. Getting up hands to defend yourself is critical, but I am not sure I am going to call that a technique.

MrIggy
06-09-2016, 02:12 PM
Also, I am not sure I would say that ikkyo is always available. Nor does hands up = ikkyo. Getting up hands to defend yourself is critical, but I am not sure I am going to call that a technique.

Nor did i say hands up = Ikkyo, like i wrote earlier, "raising your hands can indeed prevent your attacker from landing a second and third punch and help you create distance from him/her by landing a couple of punches of you own or by simply pushing them away". I will be more precise, i know this from my experience.

As far as techniques go, Ikkyo is the fundamental technique and from my experience it's always available but it depends on the way it's trained and used.

Currawong
06-19-2016, 11:06 PM
If you want to learn how to deal with common attacks you need to train with people who throw them at you in an alive environment. Sly's videos are going to be as useful for that purpose.as watching The Matrix for learning Kung Fu.

Yup, that's why I said in my post "I'm interested in this kind of training." In Sly's case, he has been on the receiving end of violence, which makes what he has to say and what he considers to be of value to be something of interest. The same goes for being interested in what policemen who practice Aikido say, or other people in security fields who do. :)

Cromwell
07-17-2016, 10:12 AM
Although Sly's is rather unorthodox and can vulgar. He's Aikido is actually good. I would say it would be more effective than some of the Aikido I've seen out there. Remember this Tenshin Aikido has a strong 'combat' concepts.