PDA

View Full Version : Aikijujutsu Throws


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Cady Goldfield
03-30-2016, 05:37 PM
The internal (aiki) aspects of aikijujutsu nage waza show a marked contrast to the way throws are executed in contemporary aikido. Aikijujutsu uses a spiraling, suctioning-in or drawing-in process to control uke and set him up for the throw -- literally throwing uke -- and moves in small, tight spirals, including the stepping. There are no large, circular tenkan or turns, and sometimes it's even hard to detect the body movement that initiates the throw -- the throw being a by-product of the manipulation of specific muscles, tendons and fascia.

Here's a short clip of nage waza from Hontai Hakkei Ryu (Salahuddin Muhammad Sensei of Philadelphia, PA) showing some of the fluid but very concussive throws of his art. This is a new clip he just put on YouTube this week. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt1Gr9OMtJo

NagaBaba
04-05-2016, 03:19 PM
The internal (aiki) aspects of aikijujutsu nage waza show a marked contrast to the way throws are executed in contemporary aikido. Aikijujutsu uses a spiraling, suctioning-in or drawing-in process to control uke and set him up for the throw -- literally throwing uke -- and moves in small, tight spirals, including the stepping. There are no large, circular tenkan or turns, and sometimes it's even hard to detect the body movement that initiates the throw -- the throw being a by-product of the manipulation of specific muscles, tendons and fascia.

Here's a short clip of nage waza from Hontai Hakkei Ryu (Salahuddin Muhammad Sensei of Philadelphia, PA) showing some of the fluid but very concussive throws of his art. This is a new clip he just put on YouTube this week. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt1Gr9OMtJo

Please don’t take it personally, I’m trying be as constructive and factual as possible for human being :)

I understand that this kind of “devastating’ (from video title) throws may be a new discovery for you, but late M.Kanai sensei did similar practice already in 1970ties and I’m doing it last 20 years. In reality they are not at all “devastating’, nage is using all his aligned body to throw attacker, instead of waving magically only arms as we can see in so many videos lol.

Still in this video nage is dealing with very close distance (we may say judo distance) and quite static attack. What is clearly lacking? Nage is not making this situation dynamic, uke is not clearly unbalanced to the point of falling over obstacle (hips or other part of the body) in high flying break falls. He is simply jumping by himself to make a spectacle. From such static position maximum what you can have is overthrow (attacker will slide down without his feet even losing contact with the ground). To throw attacker in high flying break fall nage would need to change distance to accelerate attacker FAR horizontally and UP (two dimensions), to raise attacker heels, to be able to enter under him. That is clearly not a case here.

Other aspect is that throws START when attacker already finished his attack and firmly put his advancing foot to the ground. The consequence is that attacker has all his time to shift his weight back and move this foot to change position and make throw impossible. Here there is a lack of understanding how to use a timing correctly.

Of course hanmi handachi (attacker standing nage sitting) high flying throws (as demonstrated in this video) are impossible from biomechanical point of view(nage is pushing down, attacker is jumping up ). Again overthrow is possible to achieve.

When dealing with fast multiple punches, nage is standing(without moving his hips at all) right in front of attacker and only waving arms a la ecrima/kali for few seconds and then throwing him. It reminds me infamous Steven Seagal movies lol. How to say it in very polite way…... from martial point of view it is 50/50 situation and nage must avoid it at all cost.

Taking in consideration all above, I bet 50 bucks that the throws are product of the dojo conditioning and not “of the manipulation of specific muscles, tendons and fascia”. But, don’t take my word for granted, there are plenty of boxers around, try to throw them the same way, and see yourself if they do high flying break falls or merely will collapse to the ground…

Cady Goldfield
04-05-2016, 10:23 PM
Thanks for the analysis, Szczepan.
If you listen, you will hear the effects of kuzushi on contact with uke -- those grunts are his diaphragm being jolted by the concussive force through the connection. Salahuddin Muhammad has worked in executive protection (body guard) for decades, and frequently has had to apply his methods to his work.

What he is demonstrating are not waza or techniques from his art, but principles and concepts of internal machination and movement that lead to a throw as the by-product of those internal movements. It's during a class, and he is working with a student to show these concepts, not act out a street-wise scenario.

I have watched him take on experienced boxers and fighters at a seminar, last year; they asked him whether they could attack with full power and aggression. He handled them easily without harming them, which was amazing. But I can imagine that slamming them full-bore with an explosive movement would have been devastating.

My best suggestion is to go feel this stuff for yourself. And we will use your $50 to buy you and him lunch. :)

Mark Raugas
04-06-2016, 07:07 AM
Cady,

It looks like from the video that uke is off balance even before SM makes contact. Please, if you can post video of the non-student boxers/mma people, that would be very interesting.

I thought SM shows good external waza -- the throws themselves were fine at times but seemed normal jujutsu waza. I don't understand why you consider this to be internal martial arts. The wrist grab throw in particular is something reminiscent of Tony Annesi or others, and if legit shows a good level of skill, but I think (to borrow a phrase) you are selling past the close.

I am glad you have found an art you like, but it seems at times like Roppokai to me, and a bit reminiscent of Shidare Yanage-ryu. A simple explanation would be SM training with a student of Angier's for a while.

What made you give up on Dan's approach and I Li Quan and focus on SM's art instead? Have you asked Popkin about SM to see if SM ever trained in Roppokai?

Howard Popkin
04-06-2016, 09:51 AM
Sorry, we never met.

Forgive me, what makes you compare this to Daitoryu Roppokai?

Just curious.

Thanks !

Howard

Cady Goldfield
04-06-2016, 11:34 AM
Mark, I train in I Liq Chuan and love it. It has done a lot to help refine the aiki I already had, and is taking me to new places in internal method that were lacking in my previous experience. Not only that, but the actual process of the art -- Zhong Xin Dao -- is a remarkable way of training the mind and integrating it into everything else. It will be a lifelong study.

This aikijujutsu system I am now investigating concurrently, augments and enhances what I am already doing. It has traditional weapons work and newaza, which are things I very much want to explore, but which are not a part of my other training. It is, however, entirely compatible with both the method and mind processes of I Liq Chuan, or I would never have considered venturing into Hontai Hakkei Ryu.

As to the uke... He is not off-balance yet, even though he looks compromised before contact. There is more there than meets the eye. I've trained with him. He has excellent structure. Look more closely, and also listen for the effects of kuzushi on his breath.

Hontai Hakkei Ryu has no connection to Roppokai, except that the aiki that drives it comes from the same root. However, HHR is NOT Daito-ryu nor any claimed scion of it. It's a discrete, independent system of aikijujutsu that is drawn from Takenouchi-ryu, Takagi-ryu, Kukishin-ryu and several other koryu and neo-classical systems. Only the aiki comes from Daito-ryu, and serves as the engine that drives the waza.

Mark Raugas
04-06-2016, 02:24 PM
Sorry, we never met.

Forgive me, what makes you compare this to Daitoryu Roppokai?

Just curious.

Thanks !

Howard

Minimal motion Aiki sage from katate dori. Seems reminiscent from video footage of Okamoto.

However, Cady says there is no relation from her reply.

Mark

NagaBaba
04-06-2016, 02:47 PM
Thanks for the analysis, Szczepan.
If you listen, you will hear the effects of kuzushi on contact with uke -- those grunts are his diaphragm being jolted by the concussive force through the connection. Salahuddin Muhammad has worked in executive protection (body guard) for decades, and frequently has had to apply his methods to his work.

What he is demonstrating are not waza or techniques from his art, but principles and concepts of internal machination and movement that lead to a throw as the by-product of those internal movements. It's during a class, and he is working with a student to show these concepts, not act out a street-wise scenario.

I have watched him take on experienced boxers and fighters at a seminar, last year; they asked him whether they could attack with full power and aggression. He handled them easily without harming them, which was amazing. But I can imagine that slamming them full-bore with an explosive movement would have been devastating.

My best suggestion is to go feel this stuff for yourself. And we will use your $50 to buy you and him lunch. :)
Cady, you are not reading my post carefully. I said nothing about his ability of handling of attacker(boxers or others). You can't say about it from video.
I simply presented my opinion on the throws themselves( that's title of the topic, isn't it?) . For me uke is throwing himself in unnecessary spectacular manner. Presented techniques can throw attacker in overthrow but not in high flying breakfalls.

Hear kuzushi :) that is a good one....lol

You said he is teaching principles - where are these principles? He is not even not going out of attack line :( Unbalancing means attacker center must be not over his feet - that's is not happening even once...
Also " suctioning-in or drawing-in process" - from my point of view he is constantly going back(that's why he ended in front of attacker with multiple punches) , that's not enough to draw in an attacker. You must first establish connection with attacker in the moment when attack starts - can't see it.....Spirals must go up/down/up/down - in which moment of the techniques it is happened?
probably my old eyes can't see the reality any more :)

Cady Goldfield
04-06-2016, 05:01 PM
The aiki connection is controlling uke's body, Szczepan. At first, so that he is subtly moved off-balance at his center of mass, and at second, a quick pulse that is concussive into his center. The grunts you hear when that second part of the connection is made, is the effects of kuzushi. It literally concusses him at the diaphragm.

Keep in mind that this video is not street apps, but a classroom. Things are being done in a certain way to show an expression of principle and concept.

The suctioning and expansion come from muscle groups and tissues in the abdominal- and pelvic cavities, and the fascia of the back. They are key areas that drive internal power and aiki. Be observant and you may pick up on a couple of the effects these things produce, even if you have never had exposure to this kind of internal/aiki movement.

And if we ever do meet, I promise to show you exactly what I mean. It's mind-blowing and a lot of fun. :)

Cady, you are not reading my post carefully. I said nothing about his ability of handling of attacker(boxers or others). You can't say about it from video.
I simply presented my opinion on the throws themselves( that's title of the topic, isn't it?) . For me uke is throwing himself in unnecessary spectacular manner. Presented techniques can throw attacker in overthrow but not in high flying breakfalls.

Hear kuzushi :) that is a good one....lol

You said he is teaching principles - where are these principles? He is not even not going out of attack line :( Unbalancing means attacker center must be not over his feet - that's is not happening even once...
Also " suctioning-in or drawing-in process" - from my point of view he is constantly going back(that's why he ended in front of attacker with multiple punches) , that's not enough to draw in an attacker. You must first establish connection with attacker in the moment when attack starts - can't see it.....Spirals must go up/down/up/down - in which moment of the techniques it is happened?
probably my old eyes can't see the reality any more :)

Cady Goldfield
04-07-2016, 02:14 PM
Mark,
This video might help illustrate the difference between jujutsu waza and aiki-jujutsu waza. The former is based on leverage, vectors and pain compliance; the latter goes further than that, driven by internal body method that goes through uke's structure and into his center of mass, where he can be controlled.

Szczepan,
If you listen when Salahuddin Muhammad makes that sudden connection, as he is pulsing force directly to his uke's center of mass, you will here uke's breath forced out. I have experienced this kuzushi myself many times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NpoGWyKrtA

Mark Raugas
04-07-2016, 07:41 PM
Thank you for the additional video. You write:

Hontai Hakkei Ryu has no connection to Roppokai, except that the aiki that drives it comes from the same root. However, HHR is NOT Daito-ryu nor any claimed scion of it. It's a discrete, independent system of aikijujutsu that is drawn from Takenouchi-ryu, Takagi-ryu, Kukishin-ryu and several other koryu and neo-classical systems. Only the aiki comes from Daito-ryu, and serves as the engine that drives the waza.

I'm utterly confused. You say the aiki that drives HHR is from the "same root" as a current school of Daito-ryu, but that HHR is not a descendant of Daito-ryu, but that the aiki comes from Daito-ryu.

On Jan 27 you wrote:

And, Muhammad's jujutsu is not Daito-ryu either. It mainly comes from koryu systems, primarily Takeuchi Ryu (Takenouchi Ryu); but also Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, Takagi ryu and Shin No Shindo Ryu.


I can understand your enthusiasm, but it is very confusing to have all these different koryu listed.

People typically are at an advanced level in a single jujutsu koryu if they are lucky to be able to study one. I have seen people study multiple weapons arts, especially if they have disjoint focus, but it seems strange to me that you are focusing on aiki (which is from Daito-ryu, I am assuming, unless maybe other students/masters who trained with Takeda Sokaku, such as the founders of Hakko-ryu or Aikido), when each of the arts you mention has a deep curriculum of its own.

I remain skeptical that SM inherited deep teachings from 3-4 koryu jujutsu schools and a form of aiki. Unless the arts are from Genbukan -- I believe Tanemura Shoto practiced with a Daito-ryu person at a point in his career, and Takagi-ryu and Kukishin-ryu are arts primarily taught in the U.S. in the Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan.

Cady Goldfield
04-07-2016, 08:19 PM
Mark, we are talking about two different things here:

1. Waza/techniques: the mechanical execution of sequences of specific movements to achieve a particular aim (e.g. takedown or throw to a joint lock and choke)

2. A method of manipulation of soft tissues over skeletal bone, both to make a fortified and stable, but relaxed, body structure and to generate "internal power"... which in turn can be expressed as aiki. In other words IS (internal strength) or IP (internal power)... terms that are used interchangeably.

The big bugaboo has been getting people onto the same page regardin what IS/IP and aiki are, because even after the years of talk, only a relative few people have actually sought out and trained in the discipline, and done so long enough to gain an understanding of what these terms mean to us in the internal arts.

When I say that the aiki comes from Daito-ryu, I mean just that. The "engine" ... the power-maker that Sokaku Takeda used to drive his jujutsu is the same one that Yoshida Sensei used to drive his, and Okamoto Sensei used to drive his, and Horikawa Sensei used to drive his, and Sagawa Sensei used to drive his, and, yes. Ueshiba Sensei used to drive his jujutsu (it's just that this engine was removed from the chassis of contemporary Aikido before Kisshomaru exported it around the world).

Kotaro Yoshida taught it to Okazaki Shuji (AKA Tanemura Katsume... he changed his name during dark political times in Japan), who later taught it to Salahuddin Muhammad. Kotaro Yoshida also taught it to his son, Kenji, who later immigrated into the US and was come upon by Don Angier, who may or may not have picked up some of it to later inform his version of Yanagi-ryu. That's beyond the extent of my research, however.

Where waza come from, is another matter. Daito-ryu has its waza, and you can recognize its provenance if you are from any of the recognized scions and lineages. Hontai Hakkei Ryu (Muhammad's new name for the art; Okazaki Sensei called it something else) does not use any of the waza from Daito-ryu. Okazaki Sensei retained only the aiki, and applied it to the koryu and neo-classical jujutsu he studied. He was hardcore, was a bodyguard as one of his professions in Japan, and put the material to the test. To me, it appears he was not a mainstream example of 20th-century Japanese culture, but one of those people who, like Sokaku before him, was a living anachronism, spending his life completely immersed in bugei. Just because we can't imagine a life like that for ourselves does not mean that it did not and does not exist, and that there are unique individuals who practice it. Evidently, Okazaki Shuji was one of them.

As for Kukishin-ryu and Takagi-ryu being associated with Bujinkan here in the West... that's the bastardization of Westerners. When Okazaki traveled in his circles in Japan, they were not like the contemporary martial arts circles of today. We are not privy to what there was in his day and place. Takagi-ryu, for example, was a bodyguard's art, and Okazaki Sensei plumbed it. among other arts, particularly Takenouchi-ryu, for his profession.

Anyway, I can appreciate the skepticism -- it's a good thing. But the healthy followup to skepticism is research and exploration. My recommendation for that is to feel this art for yourself... don't sit in an armchair and be critical without doing any hands-on research! :)

Thank you for the additional video. You write:

I'm utterly confused. You say the aiki that drives HHR is from the "same root" as a current school of Daito-ryu, but that HHR is not a descendant of Daito-ryu, but that the aiki comes from Daito-ryu.

On Jan 27 you wrote:

I can understand your enthusiasm, but it is very confusing to have all these different koryu listed.

People typically are at an advanced level in a single jujutsu koryu if they are lucky to be able to study one. I have seen people study multiple weapons arts, especially if they have disjoint focus, but it seems strange to me that you are focusing on aiki (which is from Daito-ryu, I am assuming, unless maybe other students/masters who trained with Takeda Sokaku, such as the founders of Hakko-ryu or Aikido), when each of the arts you mention has a deep curriculum of its own.

I remain skeptical that SM inherited deep teachings from 3-4 koryu jujutsu schools and a form of aiki. Unless the arts are from Genbukan -- I believe Tanemura Shoto practiced with a Daito-ryu person at a point in his career, and Takagi-ryu and Kukishin-ryu are arts primarily taught in the U.S. in the Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan.

Cady Goldfield
04-07-2016, 08:40 PM
Apologies for my inconsistency, above, in the order of the Japanese surnames and given names.
Kotaro Yoshida
Okazaki Shuji/Tanemura Katsumi
Takeda Sokaku

et al.

Mark Raugas
04-07-2016, 09:01 PM
Thank you for the waza vs engine clarification. Happy to push with SM if I ever meet him.

Meanwhile, will stick to Xingyi.

Have to give him credit for putting himself out there, but I am put off still by he video of him with Falcaro.

Best of luck,
Mark

Cady Goldfield
04-07-2016, 09:13 PM
Thank you for the waza vs engine clarification. Happy to push with SM if I ever meet him.

Meanwhile, will stick to Xingyi.

Have to give him credit for putting himself out there, but I am put off still by he video of him with Falcaro.

Best of luck,
Mark

Can appreciate that. The video with Falcaro was the result of Falcaro's persistent badgering for Muhammad to acknowledge Falcaro's "sokeship" in his own new art, a conglomeration of Bujinkan-type stuff. He had completed a set of jujutsu material (but not aiki) from SM's art and wanted acknowledgement of that as well; hence, the presentation. But what Falcaro demonstrated that day, and now teaches, has nothing whatsoever to do with Muhammad's art (and Muhammad is completely separated from, and has no further connection or relationship to Falcaro)

kewms
04-07-2016, 11:43 PM
Can appreciate that. The video with Falcaro was the result of Falcaro's persistent badgering for Muhammad to acknowledge Falcaro's "sokeship" in his own new art, a conglomeration of Bujinkan-type stuff. He had completed a set of jujutsu material (but not aiki) from SM's art and wanted acknowledgement of that as well; hence, the presentation. But what Falcaro demonstrated that day, and now teaches, has nothing whatsoever to do with Muhammad's art (and Muhammad is completely separated from, and has no further connection or relationship to Falcaro)

I'll bet he regrets ever allowing the video to be made. It's probably done him more harm than any benefit it's had for Falcaro.

Katherine

Cady Goldfield
04-08-2016, 01:38 PM
No kind deed goes unpunished.

Cady Goldfield
04-09-2016, 11:09 PM
Here's an interesting video clip on "limb destruction," which means, in part, striking the limb that is attacking with a punch, strike, etc.... but not just making a local connection or impact. Really, it means using the attacking limb as an entry point through the attacker's alignment/structure and down to his center of mass and the ground, compressing him and taking his structure apart. Aiki kuzushi!

https://www.facebook.com/sal.jaber1/videos/10152269943192133/

JP3
04-17-2016, 04:17 PM
Cady said, "My best suggestion is to go feel this stuff for yourself. And we will use your $50 to buy you and him lunch."

Well said. Sometimes, things just don't come through video. I've no opinion on the topic, but I did have one on that comment.

There are folks out there who move around the mat and people watch them and say to themselves, "That's so much BS. That's not going to work at all on [fill in the blank]."

But, then they get around the rotation on the mat to you, and it's your turn on the roller coaster and ... damn sure enough, it did work indeed. And you still don't understand it.