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Paula Lydon
08-28-2002, 09:15 AM
~~If Aikido is so concerned with its philosophical roots, ie love, peace, understanding (the one thing that makes it stand out from other MA)...then why is there so much across the board political squabbling, intolerence (Ki Society bites; Aikikai's a bastard; this one or that one isn't 'doing it right'), contempt, holier-than-thou crap, etc?
Just wondering...:freaky:

akiy
08-28-2002, 09:34 AM
I heard Terry Dobson said something to the effect that the reason why there's so much political bickering in the aikido world is that its practitioners are "so goddamn good at blending with each other." He basically reportedly said that each of them were presenting their "own" version of harmony and pushing it onto other people.

I think it all comes down to the fact that we're all still very human.

My thought is that these kinds of things get ironed out at a personal level. I try to support "cross-organizational" gatherings. I do my best to attend seminars of teachers from other affiliations and "styles." And so on.

As a sidepoint, I don't think aikido is "alone" with the philosophical underpinnings. Judo has the maxim "Jita Kyouei" (mutual benefit) as one of its core teachings, for instance...

-- Jun

Greg Jennings
08-28-2002, 10:17 AM
My personal opinion is that people who are carping about other peoples' training aren't spending enough time on their own.

I.e., what my instructor told me early on: "Shut up and train".

FWIW, while I'm not mean about it, I don't tolerate my kohai (I'm the senior student) dissing anyone's art.

Best Regards,

DGLinden
08-28-2002, 11:59 AM
I didn't realize that there was. Perhaps it is only that insidious 'vocal minority'. Or maybe people just need something to talk about in an art which, when done right, leaves little to complain about.

Alfonso
08-28-2002, 12:02 PM
Paula, I've felt this way before. I ended up listening and paying attention. I don't see this attitude and bickering in any of the exemplary instructors I've seen/read/hear of. Most of the accross the board crap you mention , I see coming from the peanut gallery.

One thing that I'm starting to see as a pattern is that when the head of a given organization passes away, there's a period of disarray immediately after. My guess is that because of the personal nature of leadership in the instruction, when the leader goes , some of the people who remain , who are most involved in the organization, see themselves as potential leaders as well. Until they sort out their differences things are chaotic. That chaos gets amplified down the ranks, and leads to some people who don't know better to spout nonsense. However, I think that for the students of the students the event (the passing away of a head) is almost a theoretical thing. For the people who followed the leader to the end of his days, it is a huge thing, an emotional time, a period of intense conflict. This may cause some unintended consequences down the line as people repeat what sensei once said, and so on.

My Sensei says that at the top , Aikido is remarkably similar; just has different emphasis on teaching methods. In the end, no one will do Aikido for 40 years if they feel it's all BS.

Bruce Baker
08-30-2002, 10:21 AM
I think it chalks up to the harmony of disharmoy, and let no one tell me I can't argue with my relatives ... or we will stop argueing long enough to beat the snot out of you so we can continue to argue.

It is kind of like explaining why there is death in the harmony of nature.

Disharmony leaves room for change, and reason to seek harmony.

A few little words? Another corner to be lit by knowledge. Another lesson to be learned.

Alfonso
09-03-2002, 05:28 PM
there's this too..

http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/ajArticles/_TheIAFSomeReflections.asp

Choku Tsuki
09-03-2002, 09:59 PM
There's no light without shadow. There's no silence without noise. There's no harmony without conflict. There's no right way without a wrong way. How are you going to throw your partner if they don't attack? It's a ying-yang thang.

--Chuck

ian
09-04-2002, 04:48 AM
Absolutely Chuck,

if it wasn't for the (constructive) diasagreements on these web pages I would not have thought as deeply into aspects of aikido as I have.

ian

Genex
09-04-2002, 04:56 AM
Well said chuck i totaly agree there is no nage without uke there is no dark without light etc... totaly ying yang

personaly i'm a little on the dark side 'cause the women love it, evileyes

but the wife gets upset when i'm surrounded by em so...

but seriously even through the teachings of aikido and everything i've learned in the past if someone insults me then fine you've insulted me, you insult my wife or family i'm gonna suck your eyeballs out your nose and spit em down your throat. just the way i am even through my beliefs (Pagan) i beleive in harmony through out.

Like chuck said you cant have spectacular binary start sunrises without vogon poetry simple...

Yoroshiku, Pete

Bruce Baker
09-04-2002, 09:34 AM
The more I ask about what certain things were meant to be, such as our subject of harmony/ disharmony, the more I find it is like some bad third rate MA movie.

The truth of the disharmony is that that it becomes the emotional safety valve of the young and disillusioned, while finding the harmony really means find the way to overcome your attacker.

The dark thoughts that we post in these threads is sometimes the safety valve being opened, while the violence of neutralizing violence is the harmony of balance.

It does sound like a bunch of weird Zen Bull**it, but then there must be some grain of truth in it because we act like this in our daily lives or see it acted out.

It seems, the disharmony of my practice is the total loss of balance from throws, rolls, or ukemi. When that happens, I must sit to recover and do techniques up to the throw or ukemi without ukemi. (It really sucks, but that is the way it is) Does it create disharmony? At first it does, until time goes by and all practitioners consider quite normal.

Do I grate on many peoples nerves on the Aikiweb with some of the posts, DAMN RIGHT I do, but give it some time and see if you come to some of the same conclusions with time.

After a while, it is either laughable, ignorable, or just part of the groups discussions.

So, indeed, even disharmony can be accepted with good nature, and good intentions as it becomes familiar, understandable, and part of our human social condition.

Of course, some manners and decorum should be observed so we don't go charging at each other with swords from anger induced by insults, but talking, as we certainly do in our posts, is the civilized method of harmony/ disharmony.

Choku Tsuki
09-05-2002, 10:00 PM
...finding the harmony really means find the way to overcome your attacker.
It seems like you're obsessed with becoming omnipotent and omniscient. Or winning. Until your satori don't hesitate to keep posting.

--Chuck

Kevin Leavitt
09-05-2002, 10:13 PM
Bruce: "give it some time and see if you don't come to the same conclusions".

That is awful presumptuous!

Not that I do not agree with you philosophically for the most part, but not always.

I do find your reparte somewhat though invoking, but I would not say that I always reach the same conclusions nor would I use the same approach or level of tact.

I would never put you on ignore though since confronting your "enemy" or alternate point of view is what Aikido is all about :)

L. Camejo
09-06-2002, 09:26 AM
Isn't the real enemy ourselves???? The dark side which only we know about? That the world hardly, if ever sees?

Could the enemy be our innate ability to project that which we like least about ourselves onto something or someone else?

To me, controlling the enemy has everything to do with control my total self and almost nothing to do with controlling another.

How can I hope to achieve outer harmony when I have yet to achieve inner harmony?

Just a thought. :) Hope it applies.

L.C.:ai::ki:

Paula Lydon
09-06-2002, 10:34 AM
Thanks, Larry, my total belief also. :)

aikigreg
09-06-2002, 02:47 PM
I've had the benefit of training under many people: Seminars with Larry Bieri Sensei, Saotome Shihan, my own sensei trained in ASU, and another a godan in Yoshinkai. A further yudansha who couldn't walk, and every technique done from his knees, and now a students of Sosa Sensei's. I've learned something from everyone and tried never to be critical. I personally think Ki Society for example might be a little out there and I have issues with the competitive nature of Tomiki-Ryu, but I'd never go so far as to say they suck or that they have nothing to teach me. People just like to hate stuff. Like whatever miserable swing I bring to the golf course on Sundays. :D