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Sojourner
01-26-2016, 05:50 PM
Works for me and actually makes quite a lot of sense! - Short video at the news link.

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/12/17/17/36/aikido-instructors-unexpected-technique-for-combatting-blade-carrying-opponent

Walter Martindale
01-27-2016, 05:14 AM
Works for me and actually makes quite a lot of sense! - Short video at the news link.

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/12/17/17/36/aikido-instructors-unexpected-technique-for-combatting-blade-carrying-opponent

Funny... my first thought was "run away" before I looked at the video...

Greg Jennings
01-27-2016, 08:27 AM
Well, lots and lots of CCW permits around here....

I mention this to provoke thought, not to be aggressive.

rugwithlegs
01-27-2016, 09:54 AM
You're not wrong...but I worked psychiatry, and that is when I started Aikido.

A patient in the outpatient unit had a psychotic moment, threw a large coffee pot at one patient in a wheelchair, then grabbed a snow shovel and struck several people including a nurse until one young nurse acted.

One psychiatrist barricaded themselves in the nursing office while several people got injured.

- Shooting patients is not an answer
- running away is not always an answer. It's like the old joke of two guys getting chased by a bear - "I don't need to outrun the bear, I just need to outrun you." Yes, you can outrun your five year old daughter, but is that an answer?

In one bagua style they had some interesting takes on randori. work in a team two against a group. Protect one partner who does not fight. Guard a doorway. Reach a doorway. Handy ideas.

PeterR
01-27-2016, 10:09 AM
These are always fun scenarios - and the bear joke is one of my favorites (and yes there is a bear story behind that).

One common issue besides the difficulty of matching skill levels is the idea that you should not box a boxer, try to out BJJ a BJJer, or knife fighter a knife fighter. With comparable skill levels if you are in a position that your opposite number is comfortable and you are not - you will loose.

Soooooo. If you are in that situation your best bet is to maintain your ma-ai. If you can control that - and it differs from their ideal ma-ai than you have a chance.

I think ma-ai is a technique and aikido has a particular ma-ai that differs from all the above. The ability to control it is as much a mental game as anything else.

Janet Rosen
01-27-2016, 10:17 AM
I think ma-ai is a technique and aikido has a particular ma-ai that differs from all the above. The ability to control it is as much a mental game as anything else.

I would love to see this developed as an essay....hey Peter Boylan, given you write on budo and your experience includes both the close in maai of judo and the long distance maai of weapons......???? :) (not that I don't think Peter Rehse may have more to say.....)

PeterR
01-27-2016, 10:21 AM
More on same - I think trying to take on an armed man of any persuasion is silly when other options of removing yourself (and others) exist.

However, the premise that you would restrict yourself to ''Aikido techniques'' is also silly.

At one point I had just moved back to Japan and the school I almost put my daughter in was attacked by a knife wielding nutcase resulting in the death of several kids and a teacher. The teacher was incredibly brave and went at the guy but strangely not one of those little desks was touched. Me, on hindsight, would have approached it differently.

PeterR
01-27-2016, 10:33 AM
I would love to see this developed as an essay....hey Peter Boylan, given you write on budo and your experience includes both the close in maai of judo and the long distance maai of weapons......???? :) (not that I don't think Peter Rehse may have more to say.....)

Funny you should say that. Years ago Peter Boylan arranged a Budo get together where different people introduced their particular art and then had beer. I have good memories from that.

A friend of mine in knee high boots doing tameshigiri (hey I'm a guy)

A high level judo guy teaching kime no kata (where I first saw the commonality between Shodokan goshin no kata and Judo kime no kata)

Stacks of money being handed over in front of me for a newly made and polished blade.

AND

passing Peter Boylan a soft tanto to try a bit of Shodokan tango randori. I still remember him charging in trying to punch it into my gut. At my level at the time I was used to certain conditions and what Peter did made me distinctly uncomfortable. A perfect example I think of ma ai and comfort zones.

Greg Jennings
01-27-2016, 11:28 AM
<snip> In one bagua style they had some interesting takes on randori. work in a team two against a group. Protect one partner who does not fight. Guard a doorway. Reach a doorway. Handy ideas.

Of course. The only reasonable path is the one that end with the least harm to all involved...with you and yours getting first consideration.

I'm just doing what I always do. Trying to provoke thought.

While I'm on it, before people get too caught up in tanto dori, they should conduct an experiment. Dress in an old, but clean white keikogi. Give an athletic friend a red magic marker and direction to somewhat realistically simulate a knife attack. Attempt to use normal dojo tantodori techniques.

You will pretty quickly come to appreciate the 21 foot rule.

PeterR
01-27-2016, 11:38 AM
While I'm on it, before people get too caught up in tanto dori, they should conduct an experiment. Dress in an old, but clean white keikogi. Give an athletic friend a red magic marker and direction to somewhat realistically simulate a knife attack. Attempt to use normal dojo tantodori techniques.

You will pretty quickly come to appreciate the 21 foot rule.

This is a fun game - on one ever came out of it unmarked but there were a few that impressed me. Those that ended up with marks only on their forearms were special. Still - everyone got marked.

Special instructions to our marker wielding maniacs is to go for the torso (not wave it around).

rugwithlegs
01-27-2016, 11:45 AM
Kawahara Sensei had different gradients of force, but nothing I ever saw written down. Ikkyu - break the arm seemed mandatory. By Sandan, disarm without pinning or throwing. Everything in between for the other tests, and not uniformly applied. He also did sometimes demonstrate more Shodokan type hit the uke in the face and let them fall still holding the knife.

Standard Tanto dori techniques run the gamut.

Greg Jennings
01-27-2016, 11:47 AM
Torso is one target. Insides of the elbow and bicep. Similar for the knee and thigh. Straight up the crotch. Sides and back of the neck. Kidneys, if offered by turning movements. Inside and outside of the wrist. The list goes on and on.

The most difficult part, IMHE, is once fakes and feints are allowed vs just "committed" attacks.

PeterR
01-27-2016, 12:09 PM
Torso is one target. Insides of the elbow and bicep. Similar for the knee and thigh. Straight up the crotch. Sides and back of the neck. Kidneys, if offered by turning movements. Inside and outside of the wrist. The list goes on and on.

The most difficult part, IMHE, is once fakes and feints are allowed vs just "committed" attacks.

Rules of the game. ;D

Of course everything goes - but distance needs to be closed.

When I have done this it has usually been with people who are versed in Shodokan tanto randori which is designed to deliver those committed attacks BUT does allow fakes and feints with a good player as strong on retreat as attack.

The marker game does really demonstrate that although the randori is not teaching knife fighting, how the skills do work and, always important, how they don't. The tactics often employed in shiai cause more marking.

Anyway - I digress. The marker game is really an eye opener.

Greg Jennings
01-27-2016, 12:47 PM
The marker game does really demonstrate that although the randori is not teaching knife fighting, how the skills do work and, always important, how they don't. The tactics often employed in shiai cause more marking.

Anyway - I digress. The marker game is really an eye opener.
Exactly. I just don't want to see someone think that they can practice normal tanto dori in the dojo, then apply it.

In general, if one has a hypothesis, one needs to do something to test it.

Janet Rosen
01-27-2016, 04:43 PM
Of course. The only reasonable path is the one that end with the least harm to all involved...with you and yours getting first consideration.

I'm just doing what I always do. Trying to provoke thought.

While I'm on it, before people get too caught up in tanto dori, they should conduct an experiment. Dress in an old, but clean white keikogi. Give an athletic friend a red magic marker and direction to somewhat realistically simulate a knife attack. Attempt to use normal dojo tantodori techniques.

You will pretty quickly come to appreciate the 21 foot rule.

Yep. By my request we did this at one of the aikido-l seminars. It is a nice touch of reality.

JP3
01-30-2016, 03:42 PM
You're not wrong...but I worked psychiatry, and that is when I started Aikido.

A patient in the outpatient unit had a psychotic moment, threw a large coffee pot at one patient in a wheelchair, then grabbed a snow shovel and struck several people including a nurse until one young nurse acted.

One psychiatrist barricaded themselves in the nursing office while several people got injured.

- Shooting patients is not an answer
- running away is not always an answer. It's like the old joke of two guys getting chased by a bear - "I don't need to outrun the bear, I just need to outrun you." Yes, you can outrun your five year old daughter, but is that an answer?

In one bagua style they had some interesting takes on randori. work in a team two against a group. Protect one partner who does not fight. Guard a doorway. Reach a doorway. Handy ideas.

Really good ideas. I've had experience with a high-level player who also did decades of peace officer and detention work, additionally being called out on violent felon warrant arrests. Hi sopinion was to try to train what you are going to do, so if you had to go into a tight spot, like men's room in a bar to extract a bad guy, you should go and train in that sort of environment so you are aware of what it is like to work in a crowded, non-forgiving space. Similarly, to train for the other style of events, such as the 2 vs a group of 4-6, 1 defending another against 2, etc. It's hard to actually do and do well, but in the end some experience with it is much preferable than none.