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chris87
01-06-2016, 04:05 AM
hey guys ive practicing aikido for a short while of 6 months and ive read up about this amazing power and im new to all this and wondering what KI actually feels like when one eventually becomes aware of it

thanks
chris

Peter Goldsbury
01-06-2016, 06:21 AM
hey guys ive practicing aikido for a short while of 6 months and ive read up about this amazing power and im new to all this and wondering what KI actually feels like when one eventually becomes aware of it

thanks
chris

Hello again,

I have been living in Japan for over 35 years now and I teach aikido to Japanese students in Japanese. I think it is fair to state that I have managed to avoid using this term and I have never heard it used in any special sense in any Japanese dojo where I have trained. However, I have trained with -- and taken ukemi from -- many aikido teachers who were / are direct students of Morihei Ueshiba and I have a good idea what it feels like.

The problem is that there is no acceptable English translation and so the word is used in its original Japanese, but without all the linguistic cultural baggage that comes with it. A similar term is budo, which is what aikido is supposed to be, and people will go into great -- and, in my opinion, relatively useless -- detail in trying to explain in English how and why a do is different from a jutsu.

When it is time, you will be much better off studying the concept of aiki and for this, of course, you will need to go back to the roots of aikido.

Best wishes,

Sojourner
01-06-2016, 05:45 PM
Hi Christian,

Maybe one answer to your question is that there could be some merit in going along to a club where they have a focus on it and give it a try? At the Ki Fed they open the nights with Ki exersizes and then move onto Aikido training with the practice of Ki. I am not overly familiar with precise locations in the UK, but this one might be a good starting point? - http://kifederationofgreatbritain.co.uk/uk-clubs-directory/name/harrogate/

Currawong
01-07-2016, 01:59 AM
My original teacher in Australia would always start people off doing the "unbendable arm" exercise, allowing them to begin to feel "relaxed power". A similar exercise is the one where you lay flat and imagine you are are a bar of steel while two people lift your head and feet respectively, and your body doesn't bend, despite their being no tension. I gather there may be some kind of scientific explanation for what is going on now.

I do remember an episode of Stan Lee's Superhumans about a man who could make himself magnetic at will and hold a frypan to his head and whatnot. A doctor measured that he had developed what appeared to be an electromagnetic ability through meditation. I imagine that focussing our intent repeatedly during training we develop an ability to move energy through our body in uncommon ways.

I have always noticed that my hands become flushed whenever I "extend ki", a term which I don't use now at all after discovering more fundamental aspects of Aikido that were important, such as developing a good awareness of one's body posture and stance and practicing well-centred movement, as any ability with "ki" is useless without an ability to direct it where it is required.

You'll be learning to move yourself and your training partners through precise curves in space while maintaining complete relaxation, rather like a great penman can draw precisely the right curves on paper* but in a three-dimensional space, intuitively guided by an internal awareness developed over many years.

Did someone say something about ki? ;)

*There are some great Youtube videos on penmanship if you haven't seen it before.

Mary Eastland
01-07-2016, 12:53 PM
What an interesting question.

I can’t remember when I first felt ki, but I do remember the first time I trusted feeling centered.

I was at a summer seminar training with my good pal, Gary. We were both brown belts. Maruyama, Sensei came by and said kick. I kicked and then placed my foot down and waited for him to test me at my shoulder. I decided to just feel centered instead of trying to keep my balance the old way; trying to grip the mat with my toes. And lo and behold: I easily kept my balance even though Sensei pushed vigorously. He mumbled something that sounded positive and moved on. I was left with a sense of wonder, possibility and accomplishment.

lbb
01-07-2016, 02:15 PM
Never mind about ki. Ki is a modified version of the emperor's suit of clothes. It may exist. It may not exist. But many people can't or don't perceive it, and (unlike in the old story) that doesn't make them dolts. More likely, it makes them honest.

Claiming to see something that you can't really see (clothes or ki) is self-deception and attempted deception of others. Trying to see something that may not be there, or that you may not be equipped to perceive (not now or not ever, doesn't matter) is a vain effort and a waste of time. Doing tricks that don't actually prove anything, and then nodding your head and agreeing that they prove the existence of something that may not exist, is charlatanry.

You don't need ki. Just train and focus on less sexy, less mystical-sounding goals: correct execution, correct body movement. These are things that you can't sit around and talk about and make unfalsifiable claims about; you have to get your butt on the mat and actually do something, and try for a long long time to get it right, and never be able to stop trying. Maybe ki exists, and if so, maybe it'll come into your aikido some day. If it did, and you didn't know it, if didn't yell out, "Aha! Ki!", would it matter?

Ki may exist, but if it does, I'm convinced you won't find it by chasing it or peering at it or telling yourself that yes, you really do feel it. And if you feel that you're lacking something because you can't see these amazing clothes that everyone's talking about, well, you need to get over that.

kewms
01-07-2016, 06:14 PM
Chances are, you've already felt it, you just used a different word.

In Japanese, 気 is used in hundreds of different words, mostly having to do with mood, energy, spirit, stuff like that. If you've stood on a cliff overlooking the ocean and filled your lungs with the clean, salt air, you've "experienced" 気 in a way that a Japanese person would recognize.

In the aikido context, it can be a useful shorthand for describing a variety of physical phenomena having to do with attention, body structure, and mental focus. It can also be a mechanism for collective self-delusion. If you find it useful, great. Just make sure that your stuff still works on people who don't feel "it" when you wave your fingers at them.

Katherine

phitruong
01-08-2016, 08:00 AM
another acceptable translation is gas. as in after you have a large meal of bean, cabbage and cheese. this is where the no-touch throw stuffs come about. it's deadly at 10 paces in enclosed space. the counter for this ki is to open all the doors and windows, might want to kick in the big fan too. but whatever you do, DO NOT light a candle or use any sort of open flame!

have you ever wonder why we wear the hakama? it really is a device to contain and slow dispersing the ki leak during practice; thus the two big vents on both side of the hips. :D

Mary Eastland
01-08-2016, 08:47 AM
Ki does exist. And it can be felt and not felt. Some styles of Aikido do not acknowledge ki and it seems almost like a dirty word.

I feel ki when I train and I can feel when I lose it. In our style we train in a way that blends with uke and does not force uke at all.

When the conversion goes to no touch throws I have nothing to add because I have no experience with that.

lbb
01-08-2016, 09:37 AM
I feel ki when I train and I can feel when I lose it.

I'm sure your partners can feel when you lose it too *cough* or perhaps there's another sense involved. Tip o' the hat to Phi. "Losing ki", wow, that's...one way to put it. "Wow, Mary just lost her ki, open the window!"

Mary Eastland
01-08-2016, 10:16 AM
That was really rude. I ignore Phi because he seems to have never left 7th grade. I hope the laugh you got over that was worth it. Has it ever occurred to you, Mary that you just don't know what we are talking about. Why don't you ask you teachers about it sometime?

RonRagusa
01-08-2016, 10:39 AM
another acceptable translation is gas. as in after you have a large meal of bean, cabbage and cheese. this is where the no-touch throw stuffs come about. it's deadly at 10 paces in enclosed space. the counter for this ki is to open all the doors and windows, might want to kick in the big fan too. but whatever you do, DO NOT light a candle or use any sort of open flame!

have you ever wonder why we wear the hakama? it really is a device to contain and slow dispersing the ki leak during practice; thus the two big vents on both side of the hips.

I'm sure your partners can feel when you lose it too *cough* or perhaps there's another sense involved. Tip o' the hat to Phi. "Losing ki", wow, that's...one way to put it. "Wow, Mary just lost her ki, open the window!"

Christian - Should you continue your pursuit of Ki development in conjunction with your Aikido, you'll surely run into more nonsensical, ill informed derisive, views such as those above. Aikido people come in all stripes and as you will find "there are none so blind as those who will not see". (John Heywood)

Don't let the foot stompers sway you, there's a lot more to Aikido than technique.

Ron

Hellis
01-08-2016, 12:29 PM
another acceptable translation is gas. as in after you have a large meal of bean, cabbage and cheese. this is where the no-touch throw stuffs come about. it's deadly at 10 paces in enclosed space. the counter for this ki is to open all the doors and windows, might want to kick in the big fan too. but whatever you do, DO NOT light a candle or use any sort of open flame!

have you ever wonder why we wear the hakama? it really is a device to contain and slow dispersing the ki leak during practice; thus the two big vents on both side of the hips. :D

Hi Phi

I trust this explanation comes from years of serious study without any damage to the tatami ?
Made me laugh anyway, I hope we both can be forgiven for having a sense of humour ? :D :D

Henry Ellis

Co-author of `Positive Aikido`

http://kazuo-chiba-sensei.blogspot.com/
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
http://henryellis-aikido.blogspot.com/
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/

nikyu62
01-08-2016, 01:43 PM
"You will feel ki when it smacks you upside the head"......me

phitruong
01-08-2016, 02:28 PM
I ignore Phi because he seems to have never left 7th grade.

preposterous!
ridiculous even! i have you know i have not got out of 5th grade!
most absurd!

Walter Martindale
01-08-2016, 08:40 PM
Ki... Well... Once a long time ago I was told I had strong "chi" by a woman member of our dojo. I understand that "chi" and "Ki" are supposed to be equivalent. But I still don't know what it is. Except perhaps Phi's explanation... :-)

robin_jet_alt
01-08-2016, 08:59 PM
Chances are, you've already felt it, you just used a different word.

In Japanese, 気 is used in hundreds of different words, mostly having to do with mood, energy, spirit, stuff like that. If you've stood on a cliff overlooking the ocean and filled your lungs with the clean, salt air, you've "experienced" 気 in a way that a Japanese person would recognize.

In the aikido context, it can be a useful shorthand for describing a variety of physical phenomena having to do with attention, body structure, and mental focus. It can also be a mechanism for collective self-delusion. If you find it useful, great. Just make sure that your stuff still works on people who don't feel "it" when you wave your fingers at them.

Katherine

I spent at least a day trying to think up something intelligent to write, but I think you nailed it much more succinctly than I could.

Michael Douglas
01-09-2016, 06:55 AM
I'm surprised there are this many replies ... to an unanswerable question.

Carsten Möllering
01-09-2016, 08:52 AM
... wondering what KI actually feels like when one eventually becomes aware of itLook for a qi gong teacher and practice qi gong. You will learn "what ki actually feels like" immediately.

rugwithlegs
01-09-2016, 09:28 AM
FWIW, from a Chinese martial arts teacher of mine, the actual character for Ki is a wood burning stove with a pot of rice on top. The lid on the rice pot is jumping up as it cooks. I use the idea as structure (pot, stove body) and internal intention/imagery (fire) can lead to something more (hard inedible seed becomes nourishing and softer). So, steam, vapor, etc and something that could be defined by physics and psychology with extensive lectures but not helpfully. If your mind is on something else instead of your movement, then it's not coordinating with your movement - much as a debate on the nature of fire does not cook my lunch.

Kisshomaru Ueshiba's book on Aikido did have a dozen or so examples of how ki is used in Japanese language, and like has been said here it's not all Jedi Voodoo. It's just "Mind and Body working together can do more." Tohei's original work was on Mind and Body Coordinated, which is not so magical sounding.

Much the same as my first curling coach told me to keep my eyes on the rock when I threw it, and to try to see the throw before I made it. My cross country coach recommended we go home and see the course and rehearse in our mind, and my biathlon coach recommended all the same stuff - becoming a better shot wasn't only a matter of wasting millions of bullets. A boxer might not believe in Ki, but will talk about timing and targets, punching through the target, having your shoulder behind your hands, etc. Most Olympic sports do some version of mind and body exercises in training.

Unbendable arm is a use of imagery. In seeing yourself touching the wall behind your partner you are developing a mindset helpful in striking through a target, and it is a way to trick your body into relaxing muscles antagonistic to the motion - you have roughly four times as many muscles and ligaments as you do bones, and most are not consciously controlled by you or anyone naturally, but many can be, and usually indirectly.

If you are an athlete already, or a dancer, or have a focused mind and good structure, then you may never feel anything new, you would just have some new engrams to work on.

If you are wanting to have Kung Fu Panda Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon Ki and want to know how to chase that, I got nothing.

Carsten Möllering
01-09-2016, 11:16 AM
It's just "Mind and Body working together can do more." Tohei's original work was on Mind and Body Coordinated, ... Just to get you right:
Do you think this understanding of ki as structure and coordination of body and mind is equivalent to the understanding of qi used in arts like qi gong or nei gong? Or do you think the understanding of ki in aikidō is different from the understanding of qi in arta like qi gong or nei gong?

PeterR
01-09-2016, 11:31 AM
Chances are, you've already felt it, you just used a different word.

In Japanese, 気 is used in hundreds of different words, mostly having to do with mood, energy, spirit, stuff like that. If you've stood on a cliff overlooking the ocean and filled your lungs with the clean, salt air, you've "experienced" 気 in a way that a Japanese person would recognize.

In the aikido context, it can be a useful shorthand for describing a variety of physical phenomena having to do with attention, body structure, and mental focus. It can also be a mechanism for collective self-delusion. If you find it useful, great. Just make sure that your stuff still works on people who don't feel "it" when you wave your fingers at them.

Katherine

Nicely put. Years ago I was invited to a Ki Society dojo near Osaka (quite an effort to get there). The head teacher was one of the few who I've seen control me with little to no body movement with my host saying very few of his students could do the same but I digress. When in turn I brought him to my home dojo the guy watched the performance of the deshi and afterward he sincerely said he had never seen such powerful ki before. Now the thing is Ki is never mentioned in the dojo and I never understood the context but after that conversation I felt I began to understand.

I don't think you can ever feel Ki flowing from you or into you but it is possible to feel its expression. The power of action through technique rather than muscle. Get to that point and you will feel Ki.

rugwithlegs
01-09-2016, 05:17 PM
Just to get you right:
Do you think this understanding of ki as structure and coordination of body and mind is equivalent to the understanding of qi used in arts like qi gong or nei gong? Or do you think the understanding of ki in aikidō is different from the understanding of qi in arta like qi gong or nei gong?

:ki: if I google qigong or chi gung, I get the same characters. Stove, fire, rice pot. I know some teachers offer more than that. The understanding I offered is common sense, scientifically valid, and very useful for health and martial training. When I teach I am able to correct structure, or I can correct a poor understanding or offer an image to facilitate the understanding. I can correct mental mistakes or physical ones.

I do not know how to correct spiritual mistakes; I cannot even prove they even exist. At my level, I cannot help a student with such things. O Sensei is said to have claimed precognitive flashes that allowed him to dodge bullets and sword strikes - I am not there. I don't have all the answers, but I do believe many things are possible. I don't know that such Ki compensates for a wild-horse mind and poor integration.

And, the OP has trained for six months in Aikido. Looking over older posts, he has a karate background. My understanding is that the characters for Kiai and Aiki are the same. At least I know he has some training - it is a pet peeve to have a new student with terrible posture and ADHD get grumpy because I tell them to stand up straight instead of something more mystical.

Of course I like to think there is more. I don't know how to reliably use it or teach it.

lbb
01-10-2016, 08:03 PM
That was really rude.

No, it really wasn't, but if you're bound and determined to take offense, I can't stop you. Whatever you think of Phi's maturity level, he is correct about one of the meanings for the word "ki". There's a more serious point behind the joke, and there's nothing offensive about it -- it's just truth.

RonRagusa
01-10-2016, 09:27 PM
If your mind is on something else instead of your movement, then it's not coordinating with your movement - much as a debate on the nature of fire does not cook my lunch.

It's just "Mind and Body working together can do more." Tohei's original work was on Mind and Body Coordinated, which is not so magical sounding.

Unbendable arm is a use of imagery. In seeing yourself touching the wall behind your partner you are developing a mindset helpful in striking through a target, and it is a way to trick your body into relaxing muscles antagonistic to the motion - you have roughly four times as many muscles and ligaments as you do bones, and most are not consciously controlled by you or anyone naturally, but many can be, and usually indirectly.

If you are an athlete already, or a dancer, or have a focused mind and good structure, then you may never feel anything new, you would just have some new engrams to work on.

I don't think you can ever feel Ki flowing from you or into you but it is possible to feel its expression. The power of action through technique rather than muscle. Get to that point and you will feel Ki.

in the aikido context, it can be a useful shorthand for describing a variety of physical phenomena having to do with attention, body structure, and mental focus.

I decided to just feel centered instead of trying to keep my balance the old way; trying to grip the mat with my toes. And lo and behold: I easily kept my balance even though Sensei pushed vigorously.

Christian - I'm not sure if you're still following this thread. I hope so because there's some pretty good stuff being posted here, a representative few of which I have noted above.

A common theme is that Ki is a result of proper integration of body and mind that produces performance in diverse activities, Aikido which is but one example, that is demonstrably superior to performance without that same level of integration.

Tohei was of the school that asserted that this mind/body coordination is present in all of us to greater and lesser degrees and that it can be trained and strengthened via a whole slew of exercises and tests. Other teachers have since added to his original Ki syllabus so that today there are a large number of exercises designed to facilitate coordination of mind and body.

The answer to your question about what Ki actually feels like can be easily demonstrated to you at any dojo where mind/body coordination exercises are practiced in a matter of minutes. Once you feel mind/body coordination and learn to apply it to your Aikido you will begin to appreciate all that the study of Aikido has to offer.

Good luck with your training.

Ron

dps
01-10-2016, 11:58 PM
hey guys ive practicing aikido for a short while of 6 months and ive read up about this amazing power and im new to all this and wondering what KI actually feels like when one eventually becomes aware of it

thanks
chris

Use a Ki Meter:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/12/54/91/12549144f97db1559eab693b2cc110e2.jpg

dps

Carsten Möllering
01-11-2016, 06:15 AM
The understanding I offered is common sense, scientifically valid, and very useful for health and martial training. When I teach I am able to correct structure, or I can correct a poor understanding or offer an image to facilitate the understanding. I can correct mental mistakes or physical ones. ...

A common theme is that Ki is a result of proper integration of body and mind that produces performance in diverse activities, ...
Thank you both for your explanations!

Carsten Möllering
01-14-2016, 12:46 AM
In which way does the understanding of Ki as "(body-)structure ... and internal intention/imagery" and/or
"a result of proper integration of body and mind" to the Daoist understanding of qi that can be found in arts like qi gong e.g.?
When I practice qi gong I work out my energy body, i.e. I work with meridians, rotate my seika tanden (dantian), lead qi using intent ... Things like that.
To me "body structure", "internal intention", "integration of body and mind" are indeed indispensable presuppositions, but nevertheless they are tools to work with qi.

As far as I know the Daoist understanding - which I think is the foundation of Ueshiba's thinking and practice - knows three bodies of man: physical body - jing, energy body - qi/ki and spiritual body - shen/shin.
ki shin tai ichi. It is not only shin tai ichi.

So I understand you both say: body/structure + (i.e. proper integration with ) mind/intention produces Ki.
How does this relate to body + qi + mind produces ... maybe ... "performance in diverse activities"?

Cliff Judge
01-14-2016, 10:59 AM
Ki is a vital energy that suffuses the universe. It has a fluid, semi-corporeal nature and is stored in the bodies of living things. It is meant to circulate within and without our bodies, though we are essentially born with an amount of it that diminishes inevitably as we age. It has a changing nature, cycling though metal, earth, wood, fire, and water in a complex rhythm. It can congeal and go stale, which can cause disease; proper training and mediation via healer can help keep it clean and pure.

This is all a load of hooey, of course, with no basis in physics or any other type of science. In order to feel it, therefore, one must find a way to hypnotize oneself into believing in it, and reinforce that hypnosis with repeated training. Over time a practitioner can come to believe in ki so firmly that it may seem to be present everywhere. Care must be taken to ensure that one is able to continue to interact with objective reality in a healthful manner.

I'm not exactly knocking it - I think developing a belief in ki may develop one's ability to perceive real things as well, such as a person's intention to attack, the correct moment to move, or whether a move is a feint or a committed attack. I got a massage a couple years ago from somebody who didn't practice martial arts, towards the end of the session she asked me if she could try some reiki. She just touched me and I definitely felt her ki...it was interesting that, despite developing a sense of this mystical energy that does not actually exist in one environment - the Aikido dojo where everyone is practicing techniques - that "sense" was triggered by an entirely separate thing in this other environment. (FWIW no this is not a happy ending joke.)

Conrad Gus
01-14-2016, 12:22 PM
I'm just going to leave this here . . .

http://mikesigman.blogspot.ca/2015/06/qi-of-martial-arts-and-qi-of-tcm.html

rugwithlegs
01-14-2016, 10:00 PM
In which way does the understanding of Ki as "(body-)structure ... and internal intention/imagery" and/or
"a result of proper integration of body and mind" to the Daoist understanding of qi that can be found in arts like qi gong e.g.?
When I practice qi gong I work out my energy body, i.e. I work with meridians, rotate my seika tanden (dantian), lead qi using intent ... Things like that.
To me "body structure", "internal intention", "integration of body and mind" are indeed indispensable presuppositions, but nevertheless they are tools to work with qi.

As far as I know the Daoist understanding - which I think is the foundation of Ueshiba's thinking and practice - knows three bodies of man: physical body - jing, energy body - qi/ki and spiritual body - shen/shin.
ki shin tai ichi. It is not only shin tai ichi.

So I understand you both say: body/structure + (i.e. proper integration with ) mind/intention produces Ki.
How does this relate to body + qi + mind produces ... maybe ... "performance in diverse activities"?

The OP wants to know how to feel Ki. You're getting a little further into a discussion of what Ki is, and I think that is a much harder conversation. I am not knowledgeable regarding Daoism and the founder's preferred branch of Shinto and what they share in doctrine.

RonRagusa
01-14-2016, 10:56 PM
In which way does the understanding of Ki as "(body-)structure ... and internal intention/imagery" and/or
"a result of proper integration of body and mind" to the Daoist understanding of qi that can be found in arts like qi gong e.g.?
When I practice qi gong I work out my energy body, i.e. I work with meridians, rotate my seika tanden (dantian), lead qi using intent ... Things like that.
To me "body structure", "internal intention", "integration of body and mind" are indeed indispensable presuppositions, but nevertheless they are tools to work with qi.

When I use the word Ki I'm thinking of it in terms of an end product rather than a raw material. Ueshiba wrote of the necessity to be able to sport freely in the hidden, divine and manifest realms. My idea of Ki as an end state grew out of that observation. I worked it up into the diagram below. I have found that the metaphor of integrating the processes of Ueshiba's three realms leads to their realizations. And the end product is what I refer to as Ki.

Aikido is my way of unifying three seemingly disparate realms, their processes and realizations; first within myself and then with my uke(s), to enable me to find my most dependable, strongest state.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7zx1V283M2E/TofezDvPUCI/AAAAAAAAADk/skF1xfug82g/s400/Drawing2.jpg

Ron

jonreading
01-15-2016, 08:07 AM
Fullness. When I am working with someone who I feel has the goods, I feel like contacting a firm rubber ball that is more massive that I [am]. Partly, I think this is where some of the analogy of pushing someone with ki is like pushing against the Earth. It's not, but I could understand that perspective. There's a connected pressure that gives a feeling of pushing against a mass, not a part.

When working out with someone who I feel has the goods, aiki is a feeling of pushing against the mass while it is in motion, giving me no direct line of firm contact. This is wholly different than "moving" a part out of the way or evading contact.

Bernd Lehnen
01-15-2016, 09:01 AM
How do you know when you can feel something that only exists as a meme?
Can you even imagine feeling a meme?
What a riddle.
Zen-Zen-non-Zen-se.

dps
01-15-2016, 10:06 AM
hey guys ive practicing aikido for a short while of 6 months and ive read up about this amazing power and im new to all this and wondering what KI actually feels like when one eventually becomes aware of it

thanks
chris

When there is no conscious thought and you feel no effort.
You become aware of it after it has happened, an "ah ah" moment.

dps

JW
01-15-2016, 12:43 PM
I agree with Jon regarding the most obvious sensation when feeling someone else who "uses their ki" well.

As for oneself-- even before you train it to be useful, you can feel what it is. This is my paraphrase of the coffee-cup demonstration:

Sit relaxed in a chair. Pretend a cup of your favorite beverage is on a table near you. Go ahead and get the cup for a drink... but wait, just before you actually move, abort the process. So you were JUST about to move and you stopped. You manifested the intent without the action. Well, either you can feel something when you do this or not... if so, that is ki and if not, one of us is doing something wrong!

Also, others like Saotome sensei point out that ki underlies all life processes so if you are not dead you've already felt ki.

JW
01-15-2016, 12:51 PM
As far as I know the Daoist understanding - which I think is the foundation of Ueshiba's thinking and practice - knows three bodies of man: physical body - jing, energy body - qi/ki and spiritual body - shen/shin.

Jing[精]/Qi[氣]/Shen[神] are called the "three treasures[三寶]". (Of course not to be confused with Jin[勁]/Qi[氣]/Yi[意]!) I know they figure prominently in some ways of thinking. But Carsten, are there specific quotes or references in Ueshiba's writings that make you think he thought in these terms?

My understanding is that the core of Chinese philosophy, shared by everything including acupuncture, martial arts, feng shui, and traditional government, is yin/yang theory. However, concepts like the three treasures are not part of that core but rather represent some later elaboration. Meaning they are the specific teachings of certain schools of thought. The singular term "Daoism" gets applied post-hoc to this diversity of thought and muddies my understanding.

My evidence: the oldest texts (including oracle bones) show the idea of yin/yang theory. The Yi Jing [易經] for example does not mention jing/qi/shen, but its trigrams directly represent cycles of change using yin/yang terminology. Later, texts like the Dao De Jing were composed. Still, there are no jing/qi/shen treasures. (In fact the term 三寶 is actually used, to refer to something totally different! So, jing/qi/shen must not have been a popular idea at that time...) However, the concept of qi has started to emerge by this time-- though a different, archaic character [炁] was used (also? instead? I don't know). Only in even later texts do people talk about jing/qi/shen. So, is this idea really as fundamental as many suggest?

The things Ueshiba talked about, like ichirei-shikon-sangen-hachiriki, kotodama, the three worlds becoming one, ame no ukihashi, kon/paku[魂/魄] interaction, combination of love and light, attraction force, and most of all, misogi, don't to me sound obviously like the three treasures. Obviously the number 3 is there but the three treasures as you have explained before are really specific in that one produces the other. In fact, Ueshiba's Japanese Omoto point of view clearly considers 神 to be something that comes from the spiritual world, not something generated by the body, right? It just seems pretty different. And misogi, which seems to me to be Ueshiba's main schema for how the process of aikido works, seems to be more a removal of impurities that impair/impede/obstruct, rather than a transmuting of essence to spirit. Would love to read your take on this.

Peter Goldsbury
01-15-2016, 07:17 PM
I agree with Jon regarding the most obvious sensation when feeling someone else who "uses their ki" well.

As for oneself-- even before you train it to be useful, you can feel what it is. This is my paraphrase of the coffee-cup demonstration:

Sit relaxed in a chair. Pretend a cup of your favorite beverage is on a table near you. Go ahead and get the cup for a drink... but wait, just before you actually move, abort the process. So you were JUST about to move and you stopped. You manifested the intent without the action. Well, either you can feel something when you do this or not... if so, that is ki and if not, one of us is doing something wrong!

Also, others like Saotome sensei point out that ki underlies all life processes so if you are not dead you've already felt ki.

Jonathan,

A question. Is pretending that the cup is on the table any different from actually reaching out for a real cup on the table next to you -- and then not doing so at the last moment? At my age, I am sometimes forgetful and initiate intentional actions, but then do not immediately do it because something else has arisen between the 'intention' and the resulting action. Which leads me to believe that there is something wrong with the original analysis.

By the way, much ink has been expended on the problem of the 'gap' between so-called intention and action. The problem first arose in connection with the ethical theories of Socrates and there are some parallels here with the Wang Yang-ming theories of the connection between intuition and action.

Best wishes,

PAG

JW
01-15-2016, 08:04 PM
Jonathan,

A question. Is pretending that the cup is on the table any different from actually reaching out for a real cup on the table next to you -- and then not doing so at the last moment?

Hi professor, I cannot imagine how a fictional and real cup could be any different at all. Except in my experience a real one is much more enjoyable, as long as you don't abort all the reaches!

To be clear though, I am talking about an interruption within the reaching motor behavior, not an interruption between the "desire" or plan to reach and the reach itself. In other words, first there is the desire/plan/idea to execute the reach, second is a certain something (lets call it 意) that leads the reach itself, then after that is movement. Interruption must be b/w the 2nd and 3rd rather than 1st and 2nd steps.

At any rate such discussion, sans any follow-up ideas, is a little remote from martial arts, but I thought it was applicable to the OP...

Peter Goldsbury
01-15-2016, 09:12 PM
How do you know when you can feel something that only exists as a meme?
Can you even imagine feeling a meme?
What a riddle.
Zen-Zen-non-Zen-se.

:D (I would have used 全く, but I can see why you used 全然.)

earnest aikidoka
01-21-2016, 11:01 AM
Firstly, one must agree that Ki isn't supernatural energy. Or supernatural in any way. O sensei, while skilled, was still human and he did not display any superhuman powers such as flight or energy blasts.

Therefore, Ki is energy in regards to the laws of physics and biology. Ki is not purely physical as it has been demonstrated that aikido does not use physical strength or brute muscular force in order to effect technique.

Under the laws of conversion of energy; Energy cannot be created or destroyed. Energy can be converted. Moves down the path of least resistance.

Since combat is based around movement, the main form of energy is kinetic and potential energy. Kinetic energy as a strike is thrown or a technique is performed,, potential energy as one gets into a stance to throw a strike or technique.

The path that energy travels is through the structure of the combatant's body as a technique is performed.

Therefore the way one can feel ki is through one's structure.

So you can feel ki when your structure is connected and properly built in relation to your Uke's structure. So when training, keep note of your own structure when you execute a technique relative to your Uke's. Where is the tension, where is the relaxation and work at releasing residual tension from your muscles. Focus on taking energy through your bones rather than your muscles, and you should feel that sensation of lightness and united coordination when you move and throw.

Cliff Judge
01-21-2016, 04:56 PM
Firstly, one must agree that Ki isn't supernatural energy. Or supernatural in any way. O sensei, while skilled, was still human and he did not display any superhuman powers such as flight or energy blasts.

Therefore, Ki is energy in regards to the laws of physics and biology. Ki is not purely physical as it has been demonstrated that aikido does not use physical strength or brute muscular force in order to effect technique.


Your reasoning is circular.

1. Ki is not supernatural
2. Osensei exhibited ki
3. Osensei was not supernatural
-----------------------------------------------
.: Ki is not supernatural

...that's not an effective argument even if you take your assertions as axioms.

There is nothing in the universe that is non-physical. At least nothing that provably exists, or is outside of the realm of belief.

earnest aikidoka
01-21-2016, 05:23 PM
Your reasoning is circular.

1. Ki is not supernatural
2. Osensei exhibited Ki
3. Osensei was not supernatural
-----------------------------------------------
.: Ki is not supernatural

...that's not an effective argument even if you take your assertions as axioms.

There is nothing in the universe that is non-physical. At least, nothing that probably exists, or is outside of the realm of belief.

Perhaps it would be better to say that Ki is something limited to physical expression. Or at least, restricted to the boundaries of the flesh and bone in this particular instance because O'sensei was still limited to the weaknesses of the human body, despite his skill.

Cliff Judge
01-22-2016, 12:10 AM
Ms. Derbyshire presented what is IMO the best definition in this thread awhile back. It's a number of different physical things.

Alec Corper
01-22-2016, 02:59 AM
Many years ago I had a trained guard dog, a German Shepherd, very tough dominant alpha. One day I went into a beach bar with him, or at least tried to. Laying in the corner was an Akita Inu. For those who don't know this dog, it is often used by Japanse police and military. Anyway the dog was sleeping in the corner and literally opened one eye and looked at my dog. No growl, no other discernable (to me) movement. My dog froze and backed out of the door. Never saw him like that before or after.
Subtle body language, pheromones, doggy ki?
Having fought full contact Chinese boxing many years ago I have experienced the phenomena of visceral weakening when confronted by some opponents. Nothing has happened yet but defeat is already a reality. Your muscles weaken, your energy dissipates, your power deserts you. Fear or ki? Only visual, or something chemical in the air?
When animals leave an earthquake zone did they receive a weather update. I am not a supporter of woo woo no touch throws but there is a fine line between energy and matter and it is not always clear what we respond to in a heightened state of mind or emotion.
The fact that dogs smell the hormonal secretions of fear and respond can be tested. The strange behavior of cats around people who are afraid of them is anecdotal evidence of unseen but not necessarily nonexistent signals.
Feeling ki from others is more viable than feeling it in yourself but sometimes we need an open mind without becoming gullible.

lbb
01-22-2016, 07:57 AM
Perhaps it would be better to say that Ki is something limited to physical expression. Or at least, restricted to the boundaries of the flesh and bone in this particular instance because O'sensei was still limited to the weaknesses of the human body, despite his skill.

Well...I'm not one of them, but there are those who would disagree with you. Personally, I believe that there may exist phenomena that we can't measure (or can't measure yet), and can't see direct and obvious physical expression of, but we're on shaky ground when we assert the existence of such phenomena based on faith or belief or wishing it to be true, rather than empirical evidence. Once upon a time human beings didn't understand how the tides worked, but before long people observed that they seemed to have some relationship with the moon. At that point I'm sure many legends arose about some mystical power, a god calling to the seas, something like that. The legends correlated with observable facts, but they were not evidence-based and they were, in fact, fiction. I tend to think that if ki exists, it is much the same. It has not been measured, it currently can't be measured, and except for those who use "ki" as a catchall term to refer to various physical phenomena, the stories and assertions that seek to explain ki are like the stories about the moon god calling to the ocean. But to say that it's "something limited to physical expression", I think, we need to remember that for all practical purposes, "physical expression" is limited by our ability to detect and measure it. What we can detect and measure now is not necessarily what we will detect and measure years from now, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

rugwithlegs
01-22-2016, 10:08 AM
I am reminded of the history of phantom limb pain. People who were missing body parts were complaining of pain in the missing area. There was some science to support this was a psychological issue, some elderly doctors dealing with returning Vietnam veterans undoubtedly accused young veterans of being junkie drug seekers, and some people said this was proof that auras and internal energy existed, that Ki/Chi/Prana existed.

We now know you feel everything with your brain and nervous system, and cutting off a body part leaves the nerves that serve that area.

What I do respect from the alternative therapy groups is they never called the patients liars and drug seekers, or crazy. The importance of that to a patient cannot be overstated. But, what meaningful pain management therapy came out of the belief that this "proves auras exist?"

Also, Dim Mak or using energy meridians to cause a variety of conditions. I grab your arm in a few spots to cause a knock out by using my Chi or messing with your Chi. Or, as a Chinese internal arts teacher taught me, manipulate the arm vigorously and cause a whiplash injury leading to unconsciousness because your arm connects to your shoulder which connects to your neck and spinal cord.

I tend to teach with anatomy, physics, and psychology. I am open to the idea that Ki is supernatural, but I am honest with students - I cannot offer supernatural corrections that will make a difference in their lives on and off the mat. Proper structure? I do tell students all the time, no one ever taught you to stand or walk. One day, you didn't fall on your face and that became good enough.

It's a pet peeve to hear, "I don't like the energy of that" when it means, "I don't like it, I feel stupid doing it, I can't do it well, I prefer something else." Or, the hot friendly woman who has "great energy" while the less attractive and frustrating student gets "I don't like their energy." Mostly because I don't believe anything supernatural is going on.

Peter Goldsbury
01-22-2016, 05:55 PM
Many years ago I had a trained guard dog, a German Shepherd, very tough dominant alpha. One day I went into a beach bar with him, or at least tried to. Laying in the corner was an Akita Inu. For those who don't know this dog, it is often used by Japanse police and military. Anyway the dog was sleeping in the corner and literally opened one eye and looked at my dog. No growl, no other discernable (to me) movement. My dog froze and backed out of the door. Never saw him like that before or after.
Subtle body language, pheromones, doggy ki?
Having fought full contact Chinese boxing many years ago I have experienced the phenomena of visceral weakening when confronted by some opponents. Nothing has happened yet but defeat is already a reality. Your muscles weaken, your energy dissipates, your power deserts you. Fear or ki? Only visual, or something chemical in the air?
When animals leave an earthquake zone did they receive a weather update. I am not a supporter of woo woo no touch throws but there is a fine line between energy and matter and it is not always clear what we respond to in a heightened state of mind or emotion.
The fact that dogs smell the hormonal secretions of fear and respond can be tested. The strange behavior of cats around people who are afraid of them is anecdotal evidence of unseen but not necessarily nonexistent signals.
Feeling ki from others is more viable than feeling it in yourself but sometimes we need an open mind without becoming gullible.

Hello Alec,

Was this before Duncan?

Best wishes,

PAG

Michael Douglas
01-23-2016, 09:50 AM
It's a pet peeve to hear, "I don't like the energy of that" when it means, "I don't like it, I feel stupid doing it, I can't do it well, I prefer something else." Or, the hot friendly woman who has "great energy" while the less attractive and frustrating student gets "I don't like their energy." Mostly because I don't believe anything supernatural is going on.
Great! :D

kewms
01-23-2016, 06:03 PM
Under the laws of conversion of energy; Energy cannot be created or destroyed. Energy can be converted. Moves down the path of least resistance.

Since combat is based around movement, the main form of energy is kinetic and potential energy. Kinetic energy as a strike is thrown or a technique is performed,, potential energy as one gets into a stance to throw a strike or technique.


If you really want to go down this road, I think you ignore the role of gravity at your peril. Both the potential energy stored up by lifting oneself from horizontal to standing, and the kinetic energy released when one's structure is undermined and one falls down.

Katherine

kewms
01-23-2016, 06:18 PM
Perhaps it would be better to say that Ki is something limited to physical expression. Or at least, restricted to the boundaries of the flesh and bone in this particular instance because O'sensei was still limited to the weaknesses of the human body, despite his skill.

Humans have many tools for action and perception beyond the limits of their physical bodies. It's not "woo woo" nonsense to observe that some actors and singers can make an emotional connection with the people in the back row, and some can't. It's not "supernatural" to catch someone's attention and communicate non-verbally across a crowded room.

There's also plenty of evidence that humans can detect and respond to stimuli below the level of conscious thought. Did you "decide" to shiver when a cold draft blew across your neck?

There is nothing in the universe that is non-physical, by definition. But there are plenty of phenomena that are difficult to measure or explain without sophisticated instrumentation.

Katherine

earnest aikidoka
01-25-2016, 05:00 AM
If you really want to go down this road, I think you ignore the role of gravity at your peril. Both the potential energy stored up by lifting oneself from horizontal to standing, and the kinetic energy released when one's structure is undermined and one falls down.

Katherine

Kinetic energy generated from dropping one's weight is still kinetic energy. And when dropped through a broken structure could result in a throw or takedown. So yeah, gravity only works when something is falling, falling is kinetic energy as well.

earnest aikidoka
01-25-2016, 05:04 AM
Humans have many tools for action and perception beyond the limits of their physical bodies. It's not "woo woo" nonsense to observe that some actors and singers can make an emotional connection with the people in the back row, and some can't. It's not "supernatural" to catch someone's attention and communicate non-verbally across a crowded room.

There's also plenty of evidence that humans can detect and respond to stimuli below the level of conscious thought. Did you "decide" to shiver when a cold draft blew across your neck?

There is nothing in the universe that is non-physical, by definition. But there are plenty of phenomena that are difficult to measure or explain without sophisticated instrumentation.

Katherine

Perhaps, but I believe that all this phenomena are a result of the mind and body working together to a degree that we can't compute or scientifically comprehend yet. It is limited to the physical in the sense that it is the human body being developed and integrated to a greater degree through training and knowledge, rather than supernatural forces or outside intervention as it were.

jonreading
01-25-2016, 08:55 AM
Ki is a bucket word, so I think we need to circle the wagons about the meaning for [each of us]. For me, the conversation of converting potential energy to kinetic efficiently is a better conversation. "ki flow" is more of a conversation about the conversion process and its effects on your body and that which comes into contact with you.

I think as you migrate the conversation to an ethereal discussion, you lose the physical anchor that is a body feeling. Maybe it's real, maybe it ain't; but if you can't demonstrate your perspective of ki, you probably shouldn't be professing about it. I think that is part of the difficulty of this thread - it is constrained around a physical feeling to associate with ki... which is exactly the opposite of how most people want to talk about ki. It's much safer when ki is something that can't be measured... Then everybody can do it.

rugwithlegs
01-25-2016, 12:08 PM
http://www.aikido-maastricht.nl/index.php/inspiratie/interview-aikidoleraren/interview-tohei

this is the founder of Ki Aikido talking about Ki, and O Sensei. My own experience with a student of Koichi Tohei was that Ki was not something ethereal.

" I’ve always urged aikido people to avoid writing things like that. Unfortunately many people don’t seem to listen... Such things are nothing but exaggerations of the kind often used in old-fashioned storytelling.
The stories have gotten rather incredible since Ueshiba Sensei passed away, and now people are having him moving instantaneously or reappearing suddenly from a kilometer away and other nonsense. I was with Ueshiba Sensei for a long time and can tell you that he possessed no supernatural powers."

Tohei also talks about the Mind leading the Body (and the Ki follows is how other martial arts would finish this).

If there is no qualitative change at the physical level, no change in ability to receive or issue mundane forces, then there is nothing to differentiate feeling Ki and hallucinating. In Tohei's aikido, his Ki testing looking for physically palpable changes.

Cliff Judge
01-25-2016, 03:18 PM
Perhaps, but I believe that all this phenomena are a result of the mind and body working together to a degree that we can't compute or scientifically comprehend yet. It is limited to the physical in the sense that it is the human body being developed and integrated to a greater degree through training and knowledge, rather than supernatural forces or outside intervention as it were.

It isn't even that these are things "we can't compute scientifically or comprehend yet." With regards to ki, its more that it would be exceedingly cumbersome to describe these things in a martial arts training environment.

I've been doing mostly sword lately, and the concept of "put your ki in the tip of your sword" is a much easier way to talk about the rate of change in the blade's angle as it moves through the cut, and the exact way in which all the muscles of the upper body should be relaxed or tensed during the cut.

jdm4life
01-26-2016, 07:44 PM
Forget about it......you will probably be better off just practicing each week and putting energy into that and not analysing.

jdm4life
01-26-2016, 08:06 PM
'Since I came to you master, you have never given me any instruction.' 'How can you say that I've never given you any instruction? When you brought me tea, didn't I drink it? When you brought me rice, didn't I eat it? When you saluted me, didn't I return the salutation? How can you say that I haven't instructed you?' And the student said, 'Master, I don't understand.' And he said, 'If you want to understand, see into it directly, but when you begin to think about it, it is altogether missed.'

Forget about it......you will probably be better off just practicing each week and putting energy into that and not analysing.

Im not really sure what its about but I just got frustrated trying to find out.....I just thought #$%# it.........have a good stance, head up, move and keep moving....thats all I am working with currently, that way I dont get too frustrated trying to understand too much at once. Each week I pick one thing to have in mind when practicing, or rather.....remind myself of this one thing.....to practice, simple things like keeping my head up.......or not forgetting to move and not stopping that movement once its started, even if it goes wrong along the way....keep moving and do something else. Sounds simple but I think less is more, relax...thats a tough one, I could spend months on that alone............trying to unlearn conditioned reactions isnt that straightforward. The limbic system response has a strong pull and is a big hurdle.

The breath can keep you out of the head and focused on what you are doing.....or rather.....being aware of the breath by feeling it happen...bit like in meditation, they use the breath as one technique that brings your attention into the present, not past or future...ie not thinking....chatter in the skull...thats like experiencing reality in a similar way to using a torch in a dark room, you can only concentrate or experience that room in one small point at a time.....if it was floodlit it would ve a completely different experience.......the mind is a useful tool but often all it does is adds complexity to experience, with complexity comes confusion and frustration.......not sure what the point is I am trying to make......but thats ok too.

Mary Eastland
01-27-2016, 03:45 PM
We have had visitors to our dojo that get what it is and others that don't....and it doesn't seem to be those that get it are necessarily part of organizations that that emphasize training in ki development.

Just a thought.

HL1978
01-29-2016, 11:23 AM
Perhaps it would be better to say that Ki is something limited to physical expression. Or at least, restricted to the boundaries of the flesh and bone in this particular instance because O'sensei was still limited to the weaknesses of the human body, despite his skill.

Find some of the Ushiro Kenji videos which demonstrate kizeme similiar to that of Ueshiba, and you may have a different take on that.

Keeping in mind that Ushiro Kenji was brought over to the US to give seminars on the utilization of Ki in aikido, he is relevant to the discussion.

earnest aikidoka
01-30-2016, 10:28 AM
Find some of the Ushiro Kenji videos which demonstrate kizeme similiar to that of Ueshiba, and you may have a different take on that.

Keeping in mind that Ushiro Kenji was brought over to the US to give seminars on the utilization of Ki in aikido, he is relevant to the discussion.

Looks very similar to Systema techniques and movements.

If you would look at one of my other posts; 'Structure, Leading, Atemi'. I raise the point that Aikido techniques aim to instill in Aikidoka the knowledge and skill in using their structure to drive an opponent off-balance and applying that to practical situations. Kenji Sensei is an example that reflects my opinion. Knowledge of his structure about his opponent involved in a variety of situations. Kenji Sensei is using physics and biomechanics to lead his ukes off-balance, and that comes from knowing how manipulating his structure affects other's as they move in to engage or move in general. Systema has similar principles as well, the leading, the soft movements and versatility Kenji Sensei shows is reflected in Systema practitioners as well.

There is nothing supernatural about all this. It's all about structure, leading and application of the previous two elements. In Systema, this is all a matter of breathing, relaxation and movement. Which is entirely developed, and expressed through physical movement and training. Which leads back to my point; Ki is natural, and expressed and experienced physically. Therefore, the laws of physics are in effect when Aikido techniques or Ki are performed. As a result, Ki could likely be defined and taught according to the laws of energy conversion. Which relate back to my original post regarding structure.

HL1978
02-01-2016, 08:21 AM
Looks very similar to Systema techniques and movements.

If you would look at one of my other posts; 'Structure, Leading, Atemi'. I raise the point that Aikido techniques aim to instill in Aikidoka the knowledge and skill in using their structure to drive an opponent off-balance and applying that to practical situations. Kenji Sensei is an example that reflects my opinion. Knowledge of his structure about his opponent involved in a variety of situations. Kenji Sensei is using physics and biomechanics to lead his ukes off-balance, and that comes from knowing how manipulating his structure affects other's as they move in to engage or move in general. Systema has similar principles as well, the leading, the soft movements and versatility Kenji Sensei shows is reflected in Systema practitioners as well.

There is nothing supernatural about all this. It's all about structure, leading and application of the previous two elements. In Systema, this is all a matter of breathing, relaxation and movement. Which is entirely developed, and expressed through physical movement and training. Which leads back to my point; Ki is natural, and expressed and experienced physically. Therefore, the laws of physics are in effect when Aikido techniques or Ki are performed. As a result, Ki could likely be defined and taught according to the laws of energy conversion. Which relate back to my original post regarding structure.

I'm referring to what Ushiro Kenji shows and the infamous, Ueshiba the Arch-mage video.

Both are applications of kizeme.

earnest aikidoka
02-01-2016, 09:03 AM
I'm referring to what Ushiro Kenji shows and the infamous, Ueshiba the Arch-mage video.

Both are applications of kizeme.

Any particular videos? Just so that we are on the same plane of discussion as it were.

HL1978
02-01-2016, 06:40 PM
Any particular videos? Just so that we are on the same plane of discussion as it were.

Sure

The infamous ueshiba the arch mage video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ

Ushiro Kenji demonstrating kizeme, literally Offensive (or projected) ki

https://youtu.be/wsuhU8uouNs?t=48

You have to listen hard to hear Cordelli's explanation in the second video, I can't find the english only version of this video, but he describes something wierd is just pushing him back and he can't react right. Also that he feels some sort of panic or fear.

https://youtu.be/G070tSg9xeY?t=173

It's also a relatively high level concept in kendo as well, you could say its posture, or some sort of visual cue, that causes one to react in such a way. If you want to call the posture or movement physical that's fine, but the result is something that causes a wierd reaction inside of yourself without any actual physical contact. Ushiro Kenji is also a nana-dan in iaido, and you have to be able to utilize this concept in iaido at higher levels.

Again, I only bring up Ushiro Kenji because of the seminar's he gave in the past for Aikidoka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlvGlCP9R8Q

earnest aikidoka
02-02-2016, 06:14 AM
Sure

The infamous ueshiba the arch mage video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ

Ushiro Kenji demonstrating kizeme, literally Offensive (or projected) ki

https://youtu.be/wsuhU8uouNs?t=48

You have to listen hard to hear Cordelli's explanation in the second video, I can't find the english only version of this video, but he describes something wierd is just pushing him back and he can't react right. Also that he feels some sort of panic or fear.

https://youtu.be/G070tSg9xeY?t=173

It's also a relatively high level concept in kendo as well, you could say its posture, or some sort of visual cue, that causes one to react in such a way. If you want to call the posture or movement physical that's fine, but the result is something that causes a wierd reaction inside of yourself without any actual physical contact. Ushiro Kenji is also a nana-dan in iaido, and you have to be able to utilize this concept in iaido at higher levels.

Again, I only bring up Ushiro Kenji because of the seminar's he gave in the past for Aikidoka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlvGlCP9R8Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3CwoYuSgLc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNlz7U56aZo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbEGgZ86Ci0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkfJoOsldEg

This is Systema. A Russian martial art with similar ideas in Aikido. Except they don't use the term 'ki.' It's simply breathing, relaxation and natural movement. Yet the effects are almost identical to kizeme.

jonreading
02-02-2016, 08:26 AM
I am not sure I would include ki-touch movement in this thread. Mostly, I say this because if you can't feel ki if someone touches you, I would argue you're not gonna feel ki if its projected at you. Similarly, if you can't affect someone by touching them, you're not going to affect them by projecting ki. Also, it brings an element of scrutiny to the authenticity of the exchange. Second, aiki is more physical affect - I am not sure if I would call it kizeme as I know that concept. Not that there are not mind tricks in fighting, but that is not aiki for me.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-02-2016, 02:52 PM
Sure

The infamous ueshiba the arch mage video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ

Ushiro Kenji demonstrating kizeme, literally Offensive (or projected) ki

https://youtu.be/wsuhU8uouNs?t=48

Could be these similar effects have different causes.

Cliff Judge
02-02-2016, 04:24 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3CwoYuSgLc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNlz7U56aZo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbEGgZ86Ci0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkfJoOsldEg

This is Systema. A Russian martial art with similar ideas in Aikido. Except they don't use the term 'ki.' It's simply breathing, relaxation and natural movement. Yet the effects are almost identical to kizeme.

They have psychological concepts that are similarly implicit, though, which they might as well call ki.

earnest aikidoka
02-02-2016, 06:03 PM
They have psychological concepts that are similarly implicit, though, which they might as well call ki.

Or we might as well acknowledge that it is a purely physical combat phenomenon.

Cliff Judge
02-02-2016, 07:57 PM
Or we might as well acknowledge that it is a purely physical combat phenomenon.

Yes, including a conditioned response type thing, particularly if we are talking about no-touch stuff like Ueshiba, Ushiro, and Systema.

Rmada
02-06-2016, 06:51 AM
You dont percieve wind until it reacts with an object, (ie. rustling leaves, grass moving in a field, the breeze on your skin etc...) this is how i see ki.
You wont necessarily "feel" it specifically, but when you start manipulating your own correctly you will see an increase in the results of a practiced move or technique.

aikidark
04-02-2016, 02:10 AM
Hello again,

I have been living in Japan for over 35 years now and I teach aikido to Japanese students in Japanese. I think it is fair to state that I have managed to avoid using this term and I have never heard it used in any special sense in any Japanese dojo where I have trained. However, I have trained with -- and taken ukemi from -- many aikido teachers who were / are direct students of Morihei Ueshiba and I have a good idea what it feels like.

The problem is that there is no acceptable English translation and so the word is used in its original Japanese, but without all the linguistic cultural baggage that comes with it. A similar term is budo, which is what aikido is supposed to be, and people will go into great -- and, in my opinion, relatively useless -- detail in trying to explain in English how and why a do is different from a jutsu.

When it is time, you will be much better off studying the concept of aiki and for this, of course, you will need to go back to the roots of aikido.

Best wishes,

You feel it, or you don't feel it :-)

lbb
04-02-2016, 09:47 PM
You feel it, or you don't feel it :-)

Ah, yes, and the emperor has some awesome clothes that only the most intelligent and perspicacious people can see...

The phenomenon may be real, but non-falsifiable statements about anything are always suspect.

Currawong
04-03-2016, 07:34 AM
You feel it, or you don't feel it :-)

You're not dead, so you are feeling ki. ;-)

Mary Eastland
04-03-2016, 10:05 AM
You know you are feeling ki- full when uke just seems to melt away.

Currawong
04-03-2016, 10:53 PM
You know you are feeling ki- full when uke just seems to melt away.

You're not supposed to use your laser eyesight to do Aikido. ;)

tarik
05-12-2016, 05:59 PM
The ki wars merry go round never fails to entertain even after so many years of repetition.

An educational, meaningful, yet meaningless thread all in one. ;)

Walter Martindale
05-12-2016, 06:56 PM
When I want to feel ki I reach into back pocket.. Pull out ki and unlock door.

I agree with Tarik.