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sorokod
11-29-2015, 02:00 PM
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=R84DAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA1&pg=PA14#v=onepage&q&f=false

Michael Douglas
11-30-2015, 03:23 AM
Thanks for that link David.

zivk
11-30-2015, 07:03 AM
Thank you for sharing this, David. It's very interesting to read. Especially, to read what the then 5th dan Yoshimitsu Yamada sensei has to say on the uchideshi life.
I recommend changing the viewing option for dual page, because some of the pictures are split between two pages (e.g., O-sensei is in page 14, where uke's head is in page 15).

sorokod
11-30-2015, 10:16 AM
Share and enjoy

What I found interesting is the amount of time the deshis spent practising with the founder.

Zero

Cliff Judge
11-30-2015, 10:44 AM
I thought Yamada was not part of that uchideshi program but was instead one of the regular students at Hombu?

ramenboy
11-30-2015, 11:32 AM
cool article.

nice historical photos. even a pic with my teacher, akira tohei, in the meditiation shot

Fred Little
11-30-2015, 02:03 PM
I thought Yamada was not part of that uchideshi program but was instead one of the regular students at Hombu?

He was one of the very first of the type of individuals referred to in the paragraph concerning the "concession to the times" of "allow(ing) [married] uchideshi to live outside the dojo." And given the date for his arrival in the US, the change would appear to have been made several years prior to the article at hand.

Of course, BLACK BELT (which I bought every month for years) is downmarket pulp-newsstand English-language and not the highest authority if you're looking for a guide to correct Japanese meaning and usage.

Multiple native speakers who still use the word "uchi-deshi" in its traditional sense of "live-in student," rather than the modified usage of "inner student who may or may not live with the teacher" found in the linked article, have told me, quite unequivocally, that "Yamada Sensei was never uchi-deshi," or "Yamada Sensei was soto-deshi."

In the traditional sense of the term, they are correct. Whether there is a modern variant usage of the term "uchi-deshi" that doesn't involve being a "live-in" student would require a broader survey to determine whether this linguistic change was common across multiple fields still using a more "traditional" apprenticeship system (entirely possible) or whether this redefinition was unique to apprentices undergoing "instructors' training" at Aikikai Hombu in the Fifties, Sixties, and Seventies.

My .02. YMMV.

PeterR
11-30-2015, 02:38 PM
He was one of the very first of the type of individuals referred to in the paragraph concerning the "concession to the times" of "allow(ing) [married] uchideshi to live outside the dojo." And given the date for his arrival in the US, the change would appear to have been made several years prior to the article at hand.

Of course, BLACK BELT (which I bought every month for years) is downmarket pulp-newsstand English-language and not the highest authority if you're looking for a guide to correct Japanese meaning and usage.

Multiple native speakers who still use the word "uchi-deshi" in its traditional sense of "live-in student," rather than the modified usage of "inner student who may or may not live with the teacher" found in the linked article, have told me, quite unequivocally, that "Yamada Sensei was never uchi-deshi," or "Yamada Sensei was soto-deshi."

In the traditional sense of the term, they are correct. Whether there is a modern variant usage of the term "uchi-deshi" that doesn't involve being a "live-in" student would require a broader survey to determine whether this linguistic change was common across multiple fields still using a more "traditional" apprenticeship system (entirely possible) or whether this redefinition was unique to apprentices undergoing "instructors' training" at Aikikai Hombu in the Fifties, Sixties, and Seventies.

My .02. YMMV.

There is someone we haven't seen for a bit.

Black belt covered a pretty good range of stuff but yes sometimes you want to cringe. Somewhere there is a quote of Ueshiba K. who said there were no post-war uchideshi but I guess its all in the definition. Still even in the latter half of the 60s people went out of their way to claim uchideshi-dom when I am sure the definition was stretched and how many really had intensive training from Ueshiba M. himself. Saito from example was always Soto-deshi and he certainly has the exposure.

I really liked how the article defined aikido - harkens back to another time were definitions and history was fast and loose.

Peter Goldsbury
11-30-2015, 04:34 PM
There is someone we haven't seen for a bit.

Somewhere there is a quote of Ueshiba K. who said there were no post-war uchideshi but I guess its all in the definition. Still even in the latter half of the 60s people went out of their way to claim uchideshi-dom when I am sure the definition was stretched and how many really had intensive training from Ueshiba M. himself. Saito from example was always Soto-deshi and he certainly has the exposure.

I really liked how the article defined aikido - harkens back to another time were definitions and history was fast and loose.

Peter,

I think the quote came from me, when I first started writing for AikiWeb, and was a quote from K Ueshiba to me in a private conversation. I have discussed the quote with some of the people featured in the article and they agree with the quote, but add 'nuances' to the definition.

Best wishes,

PAG

PeterR
11-30-2015, 04:53 PM
Peter,

I think the quote came from me, when I first started writing for AikiWeb, and was a quote from K Ueshiba to me in a private conversation. I have discussed the quote with some of the people featured in the article and they agree with the quote, but add 'nuances' to the definition.

Best wishes,

PAG

Ah yes now I remember better - it is of course all in the nuances.

It seems to me that there is no real difference between soto and uchi especially if the former was diligent. More important was how much time they spent as chosen uke.

MRoh
12-08-2015, 08:09 AM
People coming to the dojo every day for training were not called soto deshi, but kayo no deshi.

My teacher, K. Asai was one of them, hes family lived on the other side of the street. Also Tada Sensei was kayo no deshi.