Bone spurs in the knee

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[lbb]

Hooray for bloody synovial fluid! I've got bone spurs in my knee and who knows what else. Anyone ever deal with bone spurs in the knee? My doctor is on it but I'm on a 7-10 day "wait and see" disabled list, after which we'll figure out what's next. If it's only bone spurs, is this something that can get cleaned up pretty easily?

[Cliff Judge]

I've been struggling with knee crap all year and I just want to say I wish you a simple diagnosis and a speedy adaptation if not recovery.

[jdm4life]

Good idea for anyone is to take a top dosage of glucosamine and chondroitin daily and a high epa, dha fish oil supplement.

A lack of synovial fluid the culprit?

[lbb]

You too, Cliff. Knee crap sucks.

[Star Dragon]

I do think that Aikido's "twist stance" is potentially tough on the knees, especially when doing irimi-tenkan.

[jdm4life]

I do think that Aikido's "twist stance" is potentially tough on the knees, especially when doing irimi-tenkan.

What is a twist stance?????

[Michael Hackett]

Hi Mary,

I tore my meniscus several years ago and my surgeon found a couple of spots of growth on the inside of the knee cap during the repair. He explained that he ground them down while in there. I don't know if they correspond to your bone spurs, but they sound similar. It was a quick fix on top of the meniscus repair and the end result was excellent. I was off the mat six weeks and returned to training without any problem at all. I hope your recovery will be even easier and more rapid. Best wishes for a speedy recovery!

[Star Dragon]

What is a twist stance?????

Front foot pointing outward, back foot straight ahead. The stance you end up in after an irimi-tenkan, although in some schools that I have trained in, it was more transitional than in others. It's considered a basic readiness stance sometimes.

A similar stance is called a twist stance in certain martial arts, although the back leg is relaxed there and it's used only on certain occasions. In Aikido, it's frequently used, and I wonder how many practitioners get knee issues from it over the years, and how this could be prevented. I have some first thoughts on this that I may present here if anybody is interested.

[Walter Martindale]

I've seen that twisted-outward stance in some aikido people, with the leading foot turned sideways - and always considered it risky. Is it a style-related thing? I don't recall seeing it often in the Aikikai dojo I've been to but see it frequently in other participants and videos. Can't be good for the knees. Knee is a sliding-hinge of sorts, meant to flex and extend, not to hold/resist lateral moments.

[PeterR]

I have never seen a twist stance in aikido - certainly not a basic ready stance. I can't even be sure I understand what is being described it sounds so foreign. Does anyone have a picture of this - preferably of an aikidoist doing it.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

This?

http://discovering-aikido.com/images/48.jpg

[PeterR]

That looks suspiciously like Yoshinkan based on the hands but those feet ... hmmmm. Where is Michael Kimeda when you need him.

I will say the twist is less radical then I imagined when reading the text.

[lbb]

Hi Mary,

I tore my meniscus several years ago and my surgeon found a couple of spots of growth on the inside of the knee cap during the repair. He explained that he ground them down while in there. I don't know if they correspond to your bone spurs, but they sound similar. It was a quick fix on top of the meniscus repair and the end result was excellent. I was off the mat six weeks and returned to training without any problem at all. I hope your recovery will be even easier and more rapid. Best wishes for a speedy recovery!

Michael, thanks very much for your insight and your good wishes. Some things definitely point to meniscus including MOI. Possibly other stuff as well, we'll see where we are in a week.

For the rest of you, this has nothing to do with any twisting whatsis. MOI was hyperflexion.

[kewms]

This?

http://discovering-aikido.com/images/48.jpg

That stance would be seen as wrong in every aikido dojo I've been to.

But yes, it does look terrible for the knees.

Katherine

[PeterR]

Funny - I had a young man accidently roll into the side of my knee a few weeks ago. Minor nuisance then, followed by 'felt ok' but now its beginning to ache in a really annoying way. Definitely a design flaw.

[rugwithlegs]

The Yoshinkan ready stance to my understanding is a 90 degree angle, same as most hamni.

Also if I don't lift my feet when turning my legs do get tied up.

Mary, sorry to hear this. I have had three meniscus repairs, as well as bone spurs taken off my big toe joints. I did not get much range of motion back from having the bone spur removed, but the pain is much less.

I had a surgeon who told me I was fine to go back to work in four weeks, but I am a nurse doing 12h shifts. He was wrong. Compression stockings were my post-op saving grace as I had problems with swelling. Time to good activity level depends partly on the location in the knee - more invasive, more problems.

Not addressing an issue for a long time leads to maybe a knee replacement, but a small cyst or area of bruised or inflamed bone can look similar on the X-rays. Glad you've been given a week to see if this resolves.

MRI will show soft tissue injuries that an X-Ray will not.

Good luck.

Somewhat unrelated, my Sensei showed me standing meditation years ago when my knees were healthy. I also found lots of standing pin variations, while some schools want every pin done on the knees. Kokyu Ho isn't exclusively a kneeling practice. I really needed to give myself permission to not kneel all the time, and it helped.

[PeterR]

The Yoshinkan ready stance to my understanding is a 90 degree angle, same as most hamni.

Mine too - I once had a couple of the Riot Police course instructors visit my dojo in Himeji and we went through that stance and all that was behind it. But then that was part of a whole lots of things covered that day so my memory might be faulty. This might still be an acceptable variation. We need a Yoshinkan guy to comment.

The stance is not a fighting stance, more of a kata prep.

[Janet Rosen]

Bone spurs tend to develop slowly over time as a result of other problems - in many joints they are a hallmark of osteoarthritis (aka degenerative joint disease, the loss of cartilage at ends of bones) and in the feet they are associated with chronic plantar fasciiitis.
AFAIK they do not associate specifically with torn meniscus unless the meniscus problems are prolonged enough to create imbalances leading to development of osteoarthritis of the knee.
It certainly sounds, with bloody synovial fluid, like some kind of scoping and intervention will be warranted to address the spurs and also because without scoping it is hard to truly be sure what is going on in there (MRIs are just not as reliable as people like to think).
The one thing to be aware of - and Mary, this is not addressed to/for you but more generally - scoping a painful knee in order to "remove debris" and "clean it up in there" has been demonstrated to be INEFFECTIVE in addressing knee pain. Another renumerectomy.

[Michael Hackett]

Ah, Mary,

I have two pieces of advice if you end up being 'scoped.

One: Take the pain meds prescribed as early as possible and get ahead of the pain. You will probably have lidocaine injected into the knee and it will be painless for hours. When it wears off, the pain will be significant and it is hard to get it under control afterwards if you don't take the meds early on. I didn't, and by midnight I was miserable.

Two: You may be prescribed physical therapy. Do it almost religiously. That is the best step in recovering from the surgery quickly. As a side note, one of the exercises prescribed was doing squats against the wall. Since our walls are textured, that didn't work for me, so I used a door. Unfortunately I didn't think ahead and leaned against the door in the direction that it opened. I ended up doing ushiro ukemi across the bathroom tile floor. LOL. Squat in the direction that the door closes.

You already know about showing your doctor some aikido video.

Good luck, and here's hoping some rest and ice will solve the problem for you!

[Demetrio Cereijo]

The Yoshinkan ready stance to my understanding is a 90 degree angle, same as most hamni.

See Shioda's "Total Aikido - The Master Course", pp. 30-31, for clear pics and explanation.

On topic.

Hope you recover, Mary.

[nikyu62]

Had a knee and ankle injury a couple of months ago from doing a "spinny thingy" (no don't ask me right now what that was) either during exercise kata or randori. It hasn't resolved, gotten worse in fact. No MRI on the island, seeing the VA orthopedist next week. After surgery on the other knee and a shoulder, I would prefer to avoid it, but the pain isn't going away. Some people do really well after surgery, while others don't. Good luck if you are having surgery for a successful resolution.

[Star Dragon]

This?

http://discovering-aikido.com/images/48.jpg

Yes, this. I never trained in Yoshinkan but I saw it explained in Shioda's books as a ready stance.

I was taught to end up in this stance after every irimi-tenkan (among other stepping) in the two dojos in Kyoto that I trained in. Both were Aikikai schools run by students of Bansen Tanaka.

[lbb]

A week later, doctor says gradually resume activity and let him know if the problem recurs, at which point he'll probably re-aspirate and then maybe it's time to talk to an ortho. We'll see how it goes. Knee feels fine now, but how good it'll feel if I start doing suwari waza...that remains to be seen. Thanks for the info, all, it's been really helpful.

[Janet Rosen]

A week later, doctor says gradually resume activity and let him know if the problem recurs, at which point he'll probably re-aspirate and then maybe it's time to talk to an ortho. We'll see how it goes. Knee feels fine now, but how good it'll feel if I start doing suwari waza...that remains to be seen. Thanks for the info, all, it's been really helpful.

Good news. You are common-sensical enough to stop promptly if a particular thing re-creates the problem and your doc is taking a nice slow approach with the next "what if" figured out. Holding good thoughts!

[rugwithlegs]

I am glad the symptoms have resolved! Good luck going forward.

Cartilage has no nerve endings, but bone does. Don't rush. Damage can be done to cartilage which you cannot feel until it aggravates something else.

[aikispike]

That looks suspiciously like Yoshinkan based on the hands but those feet ... hmmmm. Where is Michael Kimeda when you need him.


Hello!
just a few months late to this thread, but here i am.

That does very much look like a Yoshinkan kamae, not bad, but not great. The foot angle is bad as you have suspected. The front foot should be turned out slightly, but his are on too much of an angle. also the front knee looks to be turned out a bit, which is also dangerous. Generally i turn my front foot out at about 30 degrees. (Yoshinkan juniors are encouraged to bring a protractor for a few years, I used to have a special pocket built into my dogi pants.)

There are some Yoshinkan groups that turn the foot out like this, but i have never liked it or done it.

Spike.

In case anyone was confused, the protractor thing was a joke.