PDA

View Full Version : Invasion of Iraq


Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 [6]

Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


deepsoup
05-07-2004, 04:04 PM
The perverse treatment of Iraqi prisoners is a reflection of America's perverted culture. Is anyone really surprised that these young people are such sick puppies?
Unfortunately you dont have to be a sick individual to do sick things. Its really quite possible, even normal, for otherwise well balanced, good people to do bad things when they're immersed in a bad culture. That was the point of the Stanford Experiment (http://www.prisonexp.org/), among numerous other studies.
These young americans have done some evil things, but its grossly unfair to demonise them if their behaviour was in fact a normal response to a seriously abnormal situation.
If you want to demonise someone, I think you should look rather higher up the food chain.
Someone who should have known what can happen when people are plunged into a situation they're hardly trained to deal with. (Most likely someone who will allow a few scapegoats to be made examples of without losing much sleep over it, as long as his own career is safe.)
They grew up watching MTV and other trash that they ram down American's throats on our sicko TV networks. Aha! So it was all Marilyn Manson's fault after all! :D Rock and roll as the root of all evil, lol.
I guess you should ban MTV, ban rock music. Better yet, ban all music, that'll put a stop to all that evil! (Just like it did for the Taliban regime. Lol.)
Sean
x

James Giles
05-07-2004, 04:44 PM
Unfortunately you dont have to be a sick individual to do sick things. Its really quite possible, even normal, for otherwise well balanced, good people to do bad things when they're immersed in a bad culture.

That is the point I am trying to make. The new generation of echo boomers are immersed in a bad culture: namely America! Then they go over to a land that has religious values and they bring their bad manners with them.


These young americans have done some evil things, but its grossly unfair to demonise them if their behaviour was in fact a normal response to a seriously abnormal situation.

I don't think it is grossly unfair to demonize them, no I am not the type to make excuses for people that should be put on trial for war crimes. That is the kind of left-wing logic that bleeding-hearts use when certain kinds of people commit murder. They blame it on their socioeconomic status or whatever and that is supposed to make it okay, but they still committed murder.


If you want to demonise someone, I think you should look rather higher up the food chain.
Someone who should have known what can happen when people are plunged into a situation they're hardly trained to deal with. (Most likely someone who will allow a few scapegoats to be made examples of without losing much sleep over it, as long as his own career is safe.)

President Bush did not force those soldiers to carry out those crimes. Why should he take the blame? He wasn't there.
If they don't want to be plunged into strange situations they shouldn't join the military!


Aha! So it was all Marilyn Manson's fault after all! :D Rock and roll as the root of all evil, lol.
I guess you should ban MTV, ban rock music. Better yet, ban all music, that'll put a stop to all that evil! (Just like it did for the Taliban regime. Lol.)


Marilyn Manson is not rock and roll! Rock and roll is Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix and Pink Floyd. Marilyn Manson is a satanic sicko that has to use stage gimmickry to overcome the fact he has zero musical talent. No please don't ban rock and roll! But I think all American's can do without soul, hip/hop, and rap (and two-chord metal bands like Marilyn Manson). You know, the kind of crap they call music as long as it has a video of some painted up whore (like Britney Spears or Beyonce Knowles) prancing around the stage. Yes a ban on rap and hip/hop sounds like a good idea. If the Taliban regime did that I congratulate them on a job well done. I wish the U.S. would follow suit. LoL x James

James Giles
05-07-2004, 05:31 PM
President Bush did not force those soldiers to carry out those crimes. Why should he take the blame? He wasn't there.
If they don't want to be plunged into strange situations they shouldn't join the military!


On second thought, I take that back. If you are implying that we should not be in Iraq in the first place, I agree with you. I believe in the war on terrorism, but I don't believe the U.S. should be nation building. Yes, in that case I blame Bush.

James Giles
05-07-2004, 05:37 PM
I am sorry too if I insulted you over Marilyn Manson. I guess I am a little opinionated when it comes to music. Really though it is the overemphasis on sex in the U.S. media that disgusts me more than anything. I would hate to see us push that garbage on the Islamic world

deepsoup
05-07-2004, 06:44 PM
I don't think it is grossly unfair to demonize them, no I am not the type to make excuses for people that should be put on trial for war crimes. That is the kind of left-wing logic that bleeding-hearts use when certain kinds of people commit murder. They blame it on their socioeconomic status or whatever and that is supposed to make it okay, but they still committed murder.
So, do you think that the US should sign up to the International Criminal Court, so that American soldiers could face a trial for war crimes? (As the British soldiers accused of similar acts may, at some point in the future.)
You shouldn't be surprised by left-wing logic from me, I am both logical and left wing.
The socioeconomic status and stuff doesn't excuse the crime, of course. But you have to look at that kind of stuff to understand the crime, and you have to at least try to understand the crime to fight it effectively. If America didn't do that, it'd end up with a *huge* prison population - disproportionately black, and poor - and it would in turn feed into enormous social problems with whole sectors of the population feeling totally alienated from the nation as a whole. Hard to believe I know, but America could actually end up like that! <double take> Hang on a minute...
I'm not looking to let people off the hook, far from it. I want bigger fish *on* the hook, not just the lions who commit these acts, but the donkeys who lead them.
President Bush did not force those soldiers to carry out those crimes. Why should he take the blame? Of course not, he merely put them into a situation where it was inevitable that some of them would. In spite of planning for this war for years, he failed to come up with any idea of what to do after he got to pose for the cameras under a sign saying "Mission Accomplished".
But for once I wasn't really thinking of Bush (Rumsfeld, maybe...). There are a lot of ranks between a squaddie in the field and the commander in chief. And what of those outside of the military, what of the intelligence agencies and the private sector who don't seem to be accountable to anybody. Were the guards taking orders only within a military chain of command? Or were other agencies in a position of authority over them? Maybe time will tell.
If they don't want to be plunged into strange situations they shouldn't join the military!
Quite. But the military also has a duty of care to see that its people are trained and equipped to deal with the situation they find themselves in. If not for the sake of the individual soldiers, then for the sake of the mission (in as far as anyone has any idea what the hell the mission actually is). The symbolism of the army of 'liberation' behaving in such a way, in that place is so striking that it has to be hugely counter-productive.
This whole "War against Terrorism" is looking more and more like trying to treat a wasp sting by following the wasp back to its nest and hitting it with a stick. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
No please don't ban rock and roll! But I think all American's can do without soul, hip/hop, and rap (and two-chord metal bands like Marilyn Manson).
So, you think there would *be* rock and roll, if there had never been soul?
If the Taliban regime did that I congratulate them on a job well done. I wish the U.S. would follow suit.
Shame on you. Listen to Frank Zappa's "Joe's Garage" one hundred times! :)

Central Scrutinizer.
x

Neil Mick
05-07-2004, 07:55 PM
I would like to start by saying I am who I say I am. I have been in the military since 1990. I have served in Desert Storm, Somalia, Bosnia, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and now Iraq. I have also trained in many more countries, from Japan to Norway. I have found Aikido as a bridge that crosses cultural gaps.

With that said, I am in the 202nd Military Intelligence Battalion. This is my units third deployment since the onset of 9-11 (Afghanistan, OIF I, and OIF II). I enjoy the free exchange of ideas and will be more than happy to comment on anything regarding life here at Abu Ghuraib. However, due to ongoing investigations and intelligence operations, I am not permitted nor would consider discussing operational matters.

Gregory:

Generally, I take ppl at their word, on the internet, that they are whom they say they are. However, I also accept that a lot of ppl like to pretend. In general, it takes more effort to lie over a period of time, than to tell the truth. In the end, if you aren't whom you say you are, you'll get bored and move on.

Time will prove if you tell the truth: I don't need to.

As for Jamie and Nick, do either of you believe that you will change the other's opionion in this forum? I doubt it. You both have the right to believe the things you believe and I'm willing to give up my freedom, and life if necessary, to ensure you continue to have those rights. I believe you two may have to agree to disagree. A lot of individuals don't understand why we are here and many who do understand don't agree with this operation. That is their right, as it is the right of those who do believe in this operation to openly support it. I would like to think two intelligent aikidoists would be able to use the non-confrontational blending of aikido to see the others point of view.

from Abu Ghuraib,

Greg Makuch

I have Jaime on ignore, as his comments cross the lines of etiquette so far that I have long since attempted reasoning with him. I find it highly amusing (and a little disconcerting) that he has, in the past (is he still doing it, now? Nah, don't bother answering: I really don't care) insults my rank and standing in Aikido.

In 1991, I was awarded my Shodan-rank by Sensei's Saotame and Ikeda. If he has an issue with it (odd, having never trained with me), I suggest he take it up with them.

Clicking on HIS dojo-website, however, I see that his dojo no longer exists. Hmmm...

But, to answer your question: no, I do not attempt to sway anyone's opinion on the internet. It's a lost cause. I have only read a handful of posts (none, on this website) where the post-er had his mind changed from the argument of the internet.

That's not what this is about.

I started posting here well before the invasion. I did it to become better informed. An argument sharpens the mind, and pushes me to research my facts. So, I don't post to change anyone ELSE's mind: I do it to deepen my OWN understanding.

Of course, I also post to blow off steam. It's a hard time to be an American. I am very embarassed at my gov't's international policy, and I think it reflects upon all American's. It is shameful, what we're doing: and I have actively resisted all steps of this folly.

Even so, I must carry the burden for the effects of my tax-dollars, as must all American's.

Neil Mick
05-07-2004, 08:06 PM
I am sorry too if I insulted you over Marilyn Manson. I guess I am a little opinionated when it comes to music. Really though it is the overemphasis on sex in the U.S. media that disgusts me more than anything. I would hate to see us push that garbage on the Islamic world

James,

Personally, I disagree with you: but only slightly. I think that the overemphasis of sexuality in the media is not necessarily a bad thing. It's the commodification of sex for consumerism that is the evil at the heart of advertising that's wrong.

Also, there's the inherent violence towards women to consider. I won't go into detail here (off-topic); but to bring the issue into the topic-thread, consider the US exportation of militarism in the form of bases. Look around at the culture that springs up outside of, and around, bases--brothels, fast-food joints, and some of the worst elements of American culture. Crime increases, respect for local laws is often disregarded, etc. The high number of sexual assaults on Okinawa, for instance: is a notorious example of the US export of the worst elements of American culture.

In short, the exportation of militarism abroad also carries with it the sickest aspects of our culture.

James Giles
05-08-2004, 01:27 PM
So, do you think that the US should sign up to the International Criminal Court, so that American soldiers could face a trial for war crimes? (As the British soldiers accused of similar acts may, at some point in the future.)

No, I really don't think the soldiers should be brought up on war crimes, but I don't think they should just give them a little slap on the wrist either. I think we need to show the Muslim world that we take this matter seriously.


But you have to look at that kind of stuff to understand the crime, and you have to at least try to understand the crime to fight it effectively. If America didn't do that, it'd end up with a *huge* prison population - disproportionately black, and poor - and it would in turn feed into enormous social problems with whole sectors of the population feeling totally alienated from the nation as a whole. Hard to believe I know, but America could actually end up like that!

I am not entirely convinced that people commit crimes because of their socioeconomic standing. Some people that commit crimes are very well off financially. Sometimes I wonder if it might be that some people just have very little in the way of reasoning ability.


This whole "War against Terrorism" is looking more and more like trying to treat a wasp sting by following the wasp back to its nest and hitting it with a stick. Stupid, stupid, stupid.


I totally agree with that. I was thinking that it might be more practical to pay assassins say a half million dollars a piece to go over and take out terrorists leaders and terrorists groups. That way less innocent civilians would be killed and it would probably be much more affordable
.

So, you think there would *be* rock and roll, if there had never been soul?
Shame on you. Listen to Frank Zappa's "Joe's Garage" one hundred times! :)

Central Scrutinizer.
x

Yes, I forgot about Frank, Ike Willis and Ray White. I admit that soul has got to stay. Who knows compared to the music that comes out 20 years from now I might even grow to like rap. Life is funny sometimes! -the Muffin Man

makuchg
05-08-2004, 03:49 PM
This continues to be an interesting and twisting conversation. I agree with Nick in that it is almost impossible to change someone's mind through a chat. It is however a valuable asset to the exchange of ideas. Unfortunately, the anonimity of the internet breeds courage. People tend to type what they wouldn't say face to face.

Nick, you seem to have very strong opinions about our involvement here. As do I. I will say that I agree with alot of what you say regarding the U.S. government's foreign policy. I will also say it sometimes sickens me at the policies I have been asked to enforce through three presidential administrations. Our poor foreign policy has not been restricted to this administration. I will say that after I return from Iraq I have chosen to end a 13 year military career. I no longer feel as convicted to the causes I am asked to lay my life down for.

With that said, it is easy to say we shouldn't be here or why is the President doing this or that, how would you propose an exit strategy in Iraq. Realizing we can't just leave, what time frame would you think is appropriate to remove combat elements from Iraq? Finally, how would you transition a government into place where all three ethnic Iraqi's (Shi'ite, Kurd, and Sunni) hate each other?

That question is directed toward anyone who would like to answer, I didn't mean to imply it was directed at Nick. He just seems to be the most vocal on the subject. Looking forward to the responses.

From Abu Ghuraib Prison,

Greg

deepsoup
05-08-2004, 06:16 PM
No, I really don't think the soldiers should be brought up on war crimes, but I don't think they should just give them a little slap on the wrist either. I think we need to show the Muslim world that we take this matter seriously. I agree, which is why I think the spotlight needs to shine higher up the chain of command. Now there are allegations of orders from intelligence officers to 'make it hell' for prisoners, to soften them up prior to interrogation.
"I was only obeying orders" wasn't a valid defence at Nuremburg, and I don't think it should be here. But those who *gave* the orders, or maybe those who merely failed to provide proper discipline, need to be seen to be accountable too. Personally, I think the USA's failure to sign up to the ICC doesn't help this.

I am not entirely convinced that people commit crimes because of their socioeconomic standing. Some people that commit crimes are very well off financially. Sometimes I wonder if it might be that some people just have very little in the way of reasoning ability. Well the thing about all that social science stuff is that it only applies to averages, tendencies and the like. Of course you can't take an individual person and predict their behaviour, individuals are too unpredictable. But when you're dealing with hundreds, thousands of individuals (as you do when you're running an army, say), it does allow you to say "Under *these* circumstances, we expect about *this* many people to behave unacceptably." It means that a competent leadership should have predicted these abuses and put systems in place to prevent them. (If not for the sake of the prisoners themselves, then for the sake of the allied soldiers who're likely to face a terrible backlash in the coming weeks.)

Who knows compared to the music that comes out 20 years from now I might even grow to like rap. Life is funny sometimes! -the Muffin Man
It certainly is, my tastes have changed pretty radically a few times, I'm sure they will again.

Sean.
x

ps: And with that, I'm going to go offline for a while. I'm going to be out of the country working for most of the summer, which is going to mean spending a *lot* less time reading these forums. Best of luck to all.

Neil Mick
05-09-2004, 01:51 AM
it is easy to say we shouldn't be here or why is the President doing this or that, how would you propose an exit strategy in Iraq. Realizing we can't just leave, what time frame would you think is appropriate to remove combat elements from Iraq? Finally, how would you transition a government into place where all three ethnic Iraqi's (Shi'ite, Kurd, and Sunni) hate each other?

From Abu Ghuraib Prison,

Greg

(BTW, Greg: it's "Neil." No worries, everyone confuses my 2 first names. For some reason, several ppl also call me "Eric." Maybe it's a past-life thing, lol?)

This question gets asked a lot: "how do we exit Iraq?"

Firstly, let's start with a given that we shouldn't be there in the first place, and our main purpose for being there is to control the ME (read, the natural resources...oil, et al). Also, our Occupation force adds fuel to the fires of Iraqi nationalism.

Worse, we follow the classic pattern of folly by occupying for a (false) stated reason, and ignoring factors that foment rebellion. Much as I am loathe to use this example (as it's overused), we went into Vietnam thinking it was a war against international communism, and didn't realize that it was a war for independence (to the Vietnamese). We are making a similar mistake with Iraq.

My exit-strategy plan? Turn the whole CPA leadership over to the UN. Now. Announce a phased withdrawal, yesterday. This part is most important: stop privatizing everything under the sun! Allow Iraqi's to work, at fair wages...not this $20 a week crap! Internationalize what privatization there is. Open up the whole reconstruction-process to other countries. Open up the abuses of the occupation to an international investigation, with promises to subject human rights abusers to full justice, in the ICC. Remand the task of constitution-building to the UN.

Now, here's where some ppl will deride the UN, blah blah corrupt Oil for Food profits, supporting dictators, et al, ad nauseum. My response to these ppl....

And, we're doing such a GREAT job at democratizing Iraq, aren't we??? Yep, we got this democraticization thing down pat! 8,000 imprisoned Iraqi's would hardly disagree, now would they? Many of them arrested in mass-arrests.

Sorry to tell you UN-haters out there, but your great cheerleader in the Admin, Richard Perle, was handed his walking-papers. Like it or not, the UN has a role in the world. We've done a dandy job in crippling it, based on a flawed notion of some military neocolonial-style ruling of the MidEast, but this dream is flawed. We hobbled the UN: but we can restore it to something approaching significant again.

I'm sure, that removing our listening-devices from various members' UN offices is an excellent start.

But now we get to the conundrum: is the UN just another US front, now? Hard to say. So, my answers are not simple, or conclusive. That's the thing about folly: it looks SO easy to walk in and out, that quagmire...almost as if you could walk RIGHT over that quicksand...

Here's the thing that really worries me...neither Presidential candidate has an exit-strategy. This means that we'll stay there a lot longer, and many more ppl will die.

"Time-frame appropriate to remove combatants?" Never. They're never going to go away by "removing" them. Just look at Palestine, if you don't believe me.

"The Transition gov't?" Oh, you have me, there. That's a tough one. I have no easy answer for what magic organization will bring together 2000 tribes and clans, which often overlap. But, if anyone does, they do. We have to get out, and let them to it.

PeterR
05-09-2004, 02:05 AM
Does anyone remember the huge stink being made by the US demanding exemption from the War Crimes tribunal?

Neil Mick
05-09-2004, 02:13 AM
Does anyone remember the huge stink being made by the US demanding exemption from the War Crimes tribunal?

Yes, I do: almost like they had this in mind, isn't it?

master35
05-09-2004, 03:36 AM
good day sir, im new here and saw this thread and would like to get your response in this pics? if this is neccessary? and if you had to interrogate them how would you do it?
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=8708256&selected=8 56081

http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=8708257

http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=8708263

http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=8708264

http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=8708282

http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=8708283

http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=8708292

makuchg
05-09-2004, 11:52 AM
I would like to thank Neil for his answer. I'm not in 100% agreement, but I believe his is a well thought out plan. As for Jamie, I appreciate your thoughts. I am an NCO. I recently turned down my E-7 because it required a reenlistment. Of course this was a "shocking" idea to many in my chain of command. I was asked to explain my decision and quite simply I told them that I no longer viewd the military the way I did when I joined. I no longer feel the convictions I felt then. And finally that my priorities have shifted. Either way, they excepted my answer. I guess the figured there was no changing my mind.

With that said, I will continue to support the decisions and direction of the President and my superior officers until my end of service. As for my views on some of the policies of our government, I will maintain my right to have them, however I will follow my orders until that time as I no longer am in uniform.

As for the "gag" order. As with any ongoing investigation, commenting directly on what did or did not happen here is unauthorized. However, I do not lose my right to have an opinion. Any direct questions directed toward me regarding events or facts will be referred to my Public Affairs Officer (PAO), that's how it works.

As for the morale issue. I don't hide the fact that I've chosen to leave the service; nor do I hide the reason why I've chosen to leave. I tell soldiers the truth. I also set the example in conduct and behavior because I am still a leader and I am still in the service. I don't think a soldier's morale is affected by how I feel, they are affected by how I act.

Jamie, you are right about the google fact. It is often overlooked how easy it is to find information on the internet and often comments are taken out of context. Thanks for the reminder.

akiy
05-10-2004, 10:29 AM
The number of personal attacks and disrespectful comments by AikiWeb members in this thread has gone too high. This thread is now closed.

Please remember that despite the fact that this forum is the Open Discussions forum, personal insults and such are not welcome in the AikiWeb Forums. If you feel the need to do such, please take it to a different venue of discussion.

-- Jun