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dongaleb
08-17-2015, 06:43 AM
Kokyu Nage - Irimi or Irimi Nage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhvOZm7gVCQ

Cliff Judge
08-17-2015, 01:15 PM
Which styles call this Kokyu Nage? Aikikai and related groups call this Irimi Nage. I'm curious about the difference in nomenclature.

rugwithlegs
08-17-2015, 01:26 PM
After the separation of Tohei, he called it Kokyunage.

Janet Rosen
08-17-2015, 02:15 PM
After the separation of Tohei, he called it Kokyunage.

And reflecting that Tohei Sensei was Chief Instructor at Aikikai Hombu Dojo "pre-split" the mainstream book "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" retains the use of kokyunage for this technique (well at least my copies from 1990s still did) :)

Michael Hackett
08-17-2015, 02:48 PM
In the AAA what was demonstrated is called iriminage because Nage continues entering with the leg nearest to Uke. If Nage maintains his hamni without stepping through, we call it kiokyunage. The last technique shown in the video we would identify as sokomen iriminage.

rugwithlegs
08-17-2015, 05:54 PM
Good point Janet, but I still see groups like Yoshinkan that date back to the 1950s using Iriminage. (Though Shomen Iriminage and Sokumen Iriminage).

The Dynamic Sphere was published in 1973, which does predate the split. Most Americans were exposed to Aikido through Tohei since the mid to late 1950s. The name seems to be used in Tohei lineage schools in this fashion. I wasn't there - Tohei split when I was four years old.

My own personal pet peeve about Kokyunage - it means too much already. While the dojo I am at now uses Kokyunage for sayunage/Sokumen Iriminage, I think Iriminage because my first teacher once called it that, but I use Sokumen because I keep them separate. I've been told to call all the Shodokan Atemi Waza by Kokyunage as well, and I prefer to use Shomen Ate, etc. The entire Saito Sensei book on Kokyunage is Shomen Ate, Udekimenage (or tenbinage), Sokumen Iriminage, and variations on Sumiotoshi and Tenchinage with a few additional ideas thrown in. All this was before I was told to call a technique I learned as Iriminage was now called Kokyunage. If I call this one thing Iriminage, Kokyunage will not diminish in prominence or importance to my Aikido.

Maybe there are some differences in the performance? The Kokyunage advocate who taught me was clear that there was no Kuzushi forward, just a lead and then cut the head. The Iriminage folks all break Uke forward, then catch the recovery. Maybe it's not the same.

Rupert Atkinson
08-17-2015, 07:48 PM
That was irimi-nage. The first half of the vid was tenkan not irimi. The last one was kokyu-nage. If we can't all agree on names how can we talk about anything? There are only ten or so main techniques after all.

dongaleb
08-18-2015, 05:02 AM
There is a description on the video just incase you missed it here it is;

" Kokyu Nage - Irimi . The throw is Irimi, while the initial block and evasion can be irimi or tenkan."

It should say;

"Irimi Nage, The throw is Irimi, while the initial block and evasion can be irimi or tenkan."

Kokyu Nage - Tenkan would be the first part but instead of a forward step you would do a step back.
Kokyu Nage - Irimi, the nage steps forward or enter.

dongaleb
08-18-2015, 05:07 AM
There is a description on the video just incase you missed it here it is;

" Kokyu Nage - Irimi . The throw is Irimi, while the initial block and evasion can be irimi or tenkan."

It should say;

"Irimi Nage, The throw is Irimi, while the initial block and evasion can be irimi or tenkan."

Kokyu Nage - Tenkan would be the first part but instead of a forward step you would do a step back.
Kokyu Nage - Irimi, The uke is not led around but in a straight line, then the nage steps forward or enter.

PeterR
08-18-2015, 05:13 AM
Kokyu Nage - is a bucket term and as such has no real value in defining anything.

Cliff Judge
08-18-2015, 09:19 AM
In my experience everything I know of as kokyunage - and we tend to use the term for a lot of techniques in ASU - has a general rhythm to it where you are absorbing uke and then expelling them. I can almost see irimi nage belonging to this class but I can never quite get it to work that way.

Riai Maori
08-18-2015, 01:34 PM
Kokyu Nage - is a bucket term and as such has no real value in defining anything.

Exactly what my Iwama Sensei tells us students. He goes on further to say, that Saito Sensei told him, when O'sensei didn't have a name for a technique, he called it Kokyu Nage. And yes the demonstration shows both Ura and Omote Irimi Nage. :)

dongaleb
08-27-2015, 01:06 AM
On that note, here are some more kokyu nage;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpcrL0FX-XU