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Cnaeus
06-29-2015, 02:00 PM
Hi,
I came across this interesting concept called the "ikkyo curve" some few months ago, but forgot the source, except that it was some youtube video.
Today we were playing with ikkyo techniques, and I began wondering how this concept with the ikkyo curve was, I think it had something to do with sliding uke's energy (?) across a curve between the two shoulders or something, and that this method allowed effortless execurion of technique...
Could someone please elaborate on this concept a little bit, or point me to the source? From which Aikido school/organisation this concept originates from? I have never heard or read about it before.
Thank you!

nikyu62
06-29-2015, 03:00 PM
I believe i heard Pranin Sensei mention that, probably an Iwama style technique. Try Aikido journal online.

Cliff Judge
06-29-2015, 03:16 PM
I believe that is original George Ledyard material. Or at least George has coined that term to illustrate where you move your intention when executing ikkyo.

The idea is that you want to extend your energy along a curve that goes behind uke's head, as opposed to trying to do something to their arm.

Janet Rosen
06-29-2015, 04:18 PM
I believe that is original George Ledyard material. Or at least George has coined that term to illustrate where you move your intention when executing ikkyo.

The idea is that you want to extend your energy along a curve that goes behind uke's head, as opposed to trying to do something to their arm.

I also took this away from seminars with Ledyard Sensei.
It fits in, in my practice, with what Ikeda talks about - looking where your intent is - and with what our dojo teaches - intent leads mind, mind leads body:
I visualize it as running the energy in a curve up through, then past, the shoulder, redirecting well behind uke's head, and across center line to behind opposite shoulder, allowing balance to be broken in the shape associated with ikkyo.

Erick Mead
06-29-2015, 05:50 PM
I also took this away from seminars with Ledyard Sensei.
It fits in, in my practice, with what Ikeda talks about - looking where your intent is - and with what our dojo teaches - intent leads mind, mind leads body:
I visualize it as running the energy in a curve up through, then past, the shoulder, redirecting well behind uke's head, and across center line to behind opposite shoulder, allowing balance to be broken in the shape associated with ikkyo.I tell students having trouble with ikkyo to visualize a blade extending out the back of uke's shoulder, inline with the arm, and that the arm is a long handle or tsuka. Then I tell them to cut off uke's head with it.

Never fails. :D

Cnaeus
06-30-2015, 06:09 AM
Wow, thank you all, you have been most helpful!
After reading the replies I went to watch a few videos with Ledyard sensei, but I see now that it goes much deeper than I thought...
Obviously you need connection with uke to execute technique, but how do you turn connection into control?
I have the impression that when you get connection, you are connected with uke through certain joints, so if you have a connection between your shoulders, for example, then if you change your shoulder, then uke's shoulder also gets changed along with your own. So then Aikido technique really is about trying to change something within yourself - rather than trying to change something in your partner directly, and if there is proper connection, then that change somehow manifests in your partner, too... do you think I'm on the right track with these thoughts? I mean, in regards with this Aiki stuff...

robin_jet_alt
06-30-2015, 06:27 AM
Wow, thank you all, you have been most helpful!
After reading the replies I went to watch a few videos with Ledyard sensei, but I see now that it goes much deeper than I thought...
Obviously you need connection with uke to execute technique, but how do you turn connection into control?
I have the impression that when you get connection, you are connected with uke through certain joints, so if you have a connection between your shoulders, for example, then if you change your shoulder, then uke's shoulder also gets changed along with your own. So then Aikido technique really is about trying to change something within yourself - rather than trying to change something in your partner directly, and if there is proper connection, then that change somehow manifests in your partner, too... do you think I'm on the right track with these thoughts? I mean, in regards with this Aiki stuff...

Yes

kewms
06-30-2015, 09:50 AM
Yes, you're on the right track.

You can also use the ikkyo curve as a purely physical concept, though. Generally speaking, many different techniques involve displacing uke along a line that appears in its purest form in ikkyo. So checking to see if you're using that curve is a quick way to see if the geometry of your technique is correct.

Katherine

nikyu62
06-30-2015, 01:10 PM
Esaki Sensei teaches that if you do the art moving your own body properly, extending ki, then the art will have the proper effect on uke; this is (to me) the same point as stated differently above.

SeiserL
07-01-2015, 06:55 AM
After training with Ledyard Sensei, I began to to extend my intent/waza to control the opposite shoulder through the shoulder blades ...
Extend this to other waza by connecting through the body to control the opposite side ...
Just my take ...

JW
07-02-2015, 12:34 AM
... if you have a connection between your shoulders, for example, then if you change your shoulder, then uke's shoulder also gets changed along with your own. So then Aikido technique really is about trying to change something within yourself - rather than trying to change something in your partner directly, and if there is proper connection, then that change somehow manifests in your partner, too...

Right on!
I think of it like this:
- Uke comes to perturb your posture,
- You correct the perturbation,
- Due to the connection, your correction perturbs him instead.

In a static exercise, where you allow him to acheive a perturbation to begin with, this makes intuitive sense. But, my goal is that I can mentally be doing the "correction" before he perturbs me, before contact even. Then, upon contact, as he attempts to begin to affect me, the results of what I was doing mentally are borne out automatically. In other words his force input "reads out" the state of my intent.

Cliff Judge
07-02-2015, 09:30 AM
You can also use the ikkyo curve as a purely physical concept, though. Generally speaking, many different techniques involve displacing uke along a line that appears in its purest form in ikkyo. So checking to see if you're using that curve is a quick way to see if the geometry of your technique is correct.

Katherine

Yes, for me, it was much more of a technical tip that helped me, as a nikyu level guy, move from usually not being able to make ikkyo work on an uncooperative partner, to suddenly being able to make ikkyo work almost all of the time unless my partner was particularly solid.

Later on I found it fit in with a lot of stuff Saotome Sensei was saying about the proprioceptive "energy body" that extends passed the skin.

JW
07-02-2015, 11:46 AM
Later on I found it fit in with a lot of stuff Saotome Sensei was saying about the proprioceptive "energy body" that extends passed the skin.
Care to elaborate?

I love it when useful "tricks" of jujutsu are derived from a bigger picture. That sort of gives those tricks meaning for me by making them agents of a central main point. (rather than being independent things that I can choose to do or not do at any time)