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lars beyer
02-26-2015, 03:20 PM
Hi aikido friends !
I have read several places in english translation that O´sensei referred to "drawing out the attack".
What does this mean ? Is it related to timing and a certain spatial relationship between uke and nage ???
Best
Lars Beyer

mathewjgano
02-26-2015, 05:31 PM
Guessing, but leading an attack by presenting a desirable target/opening (without appearing to be trying, since that would suggest subterfuge and change its desirability)?

kewms
02-26-2015, 06:15 PM
As I understand it, there are two aspects.

One is presenting an opening in order to draw a particular attack.

The other is controlling the distance in order to control the timing of the attack. This is most obvious in sword, but also happens in empty hand encounters. If you are at the other end of a room from the attacker, you are both safe: he's too far away. If you are standing right next to him, neither of you is safe, and the "winner" is probably the person who had the initiative when that distance was reached. As you walk toward each other there is a critical distance, de-ai, at which one must either attack, back up, or concede defeat (or at least the loss of the initiative). If you know what that distance is, and can control when it has been reached, then you can control when your opponent will attack.

If you know both when and how your opponent will attack, responding in an appropriate way is much easier.

Katherine

Anjisan
07-12-2015, 12:45 PM
As I understand it, there are two aspects.

One is presenting an opening in order to draw a particular attack.

The other is controlling the distance in order to control the timing of the attack. This is most obvious in sword, but also happens in empty hand encounters. If you are at the other end of a room from the attacker, you are both safe: he's too far away. If you are standing right next to him, neither of you is safe, and the "winner" is probably the person who had the initiative when that distance was reached. As you walk toward each other there is a critical distance, de-ai, at which one must either attack, back up, or concede defeat (or at least the loss of the initiative). If you know what that distance is, and can control when it has been reached, then you can control when your opponent will attack.

If you know both when and how your opponent will attack, responding in an appropriate way is much easier.

Katherine

I agree that under ideal circumstances that is completely accurate. However, I would also add that the "connection" or "leading" often begins much sooner than many realize. You may have accidently grabbed their mind as soon as they realize that want you and of course, if Nage is aware he or she can intentionally grab Uke's mind as soon as possible.

Think of the beautiful woman (or handsome man, but I believe males are much more prone to this type of behavior) at the bar whom you would like to meet, she has your mind from across the room the minute you see her and if she gets up and moves, that will influence how you work your way to her, what angles you will take to navigate the crowd. Now- while obviously not an attack the principal is the same and the connection is being drawn out by her, but there certainly is a mutual dynamic ( that she can consciously manipulate) if she is aware of your presence. She will adjust as you adjust on as many terms as she can. It's a relationship of sorts and it's already begun from across the room. Randori illustrates this quite well and regardless of the context, the key is when Nage realizes that.

Anjisan
07-12-2015, 12:52 PM
In essence, Uke has to come to you, if they want you they have to-wherever you are, and that can be manipulated to your advantage.

kewms
07-13-2015, 12:26 AM
I agree that under ideal circumstances that is completely accurate. However, I would also add that the "connection" or "leading" often begins much sooner than many realize. You may have accidently grabbed their mind as soon as they realize that want you and of course, if Nage is aware he or she can intentionally grab Uke's mind as soon as possible.

I agree, and I would say that this is how many of the "magical" feats of very high-level teachers are achieved.

Katherine

Janet Rosen
07-13-2015, 01:16 AM
I agree that under ideal circumstances that is completely accurate. However, I would also add that the "connection" or "leading" often begins much sooner than many realize. You may have accidently grabbed their mind as soon as they realize that want you and of course, if Nage is aware he or she can intentionally grab Uke's mind as soon as possible.

Think of the beautiful woman (or handsome man, but I believe males are much more prone to this type of behavior) at the bar whom you would like to meet, she has your mind from across the room the minute you see her and if she gets up and moves, that will influence how you work your way to her, what angles you will take to navigate the crowd. Now- while obviously not an attack the principal is the same and the connection is being drawn out by her, but there certainly is a mutual dynamic ( that she can consciously manipulate) if she is aware of your presence. She will adjust as you adjust on as many terms as she can. It's a relationship of sorts and it's already begun from across the room. Randori illustrates this quite well and regardless of the context, the key is when Nage realizes that.

WTF?
A "beautiful woman" who a man wants to meet has grabbed his attention. But now she is leading HIM? Ummm...If he is interested in her because she is beautiful, and she is moving in another direction, I'd call that stalking and his wishful projection on his part. Sheesh.

JW
07-13-2015, 02:15 AM
:D Hopefully he meant "moves" as in going between the bar and the table and the jukebox while fluttering her eyelids at him, rather than running away from him!

Janet Rosen
07-13-2015, 11:28 AM
"she has your mind from the minute you see her..."
No indication there is anything mutual. Just his projection onto a random woman who doesn't know he exists because "beautiful."
As opposed to "you and a woman lock eyes across the room..." or some other form of mutuality. My point is, a TERRIBLE uke-nage analogy.

Anjisan
07-13-2015, 11:42 AM
WTF?
A "beautiful woman" who a man wants to meet has grabbed his attention. But now she is leading HIM? Ummm...If he is interested in her because she is beautiful, and she is moving in another direction, I'd call that stalking and his wishful projection on his part. Sheesh.

Sure, maybe if she were aware she may have initially wanted him to come and introduce himself and then, changed her mind because her spidy sense was telling her something. I don't know. The point is that the minute that he wants to meet her for good or bad reasons there is a relationship for this discussion.

[I]I am not judging the nature of the relationship or asserting that it doesn't or couldn't change-- I'm just saying there definitely is one.

Let's forget "beautiful woman" . I apologize if that is offensive or controversial in any way. I was trying to just use a common situation, but hey lets skip to wildlife channel. So, let's go with gazelle and cheetah. At the point that the cheetah desires the gazelle for whatever reason, there is a relationship. I am using within visual range as a parameter for us humans. Regardless, the relationship happens much sooner than the gazelle realizes and the gazelle can manipulate that relationship (for good or for bad) as soon as it does realize that the relationship is there.

So in essence, one must realize that there is a relationship and also the nature of that relationship- the sooner the better. Once you do you can alter their approach, the angles that they take, place of contact,etc. The cheetah has to come to the gazelle Its just that this connection happens much earlier than we realize. And grabbing their mind can be intentional or unintentional, but there is still a connection.

rugwithlegs
07-13-2015, 12:47 PM
I agree with most of the comments here.

My stance and structure provides certain openings. My distance provides certain openings. My movement and timing in relation to the attack restricts what the attacker can do.

Also, moving on the outside edge of someone's strength means that I get to use less strength and they feel weaker. Pick up a bag of groceries, hold it in front of you and against your core and it is easy. Hold it out to the side with your arm fully extended and the same weight feels much heavier, it's just how we're built. Easier to affect someone's balance and easier to negate their strength when they've overreached. Much easier to redirect their force.

In terms of nuanced English words - Morihei Ueshiba spoke very little English and what he did know was heavily accented. He spoke Japanese, and often used terms that apparently even native Japanese speakers had difficulty with. Stanley Pranin has some very enlightening articles on efforts to translate O Sensei. Another translator maybe would chose a different phrase than "leading out the attack" or the original phrase may have different meanings or several layers of meaning in the original lesson. I try to make it make sense for me.

JP3
07-13-2015, 08:33 PM
WTF?
A "beautiful woman" who a man wants to meet has grabbed his attention. But now she is leading HIM? Ummm...If he is interested in her because she is beautiful, and she is moving in another direction, I'd call that stalking and his wishful projection on his part. Sheesh.

Janet.... she may not have yet noticed his awesomeness across the bar, you see. I have found very beautiful women tend to be near-sighted.

Yes, I am kidding. Well, sort of.

I can see the metaphor, but I think it breaks down. It might be better in a predator-prey loop, if I could think of one where there is a prey animal who really isn't prey at all, but a predator whose usual prey IS the predator animal stalking it. Maybe. Still seems flimsy though.

I enjoyed the concept though. Again, brings me back to the good old (actually bad old) bouncer days. Get mentally "on top" of a potentially trouble maker at the outset of the event and you generally keep that advantage all night. The better you are at this, the earlier in the confrontation you can get, without people even feeling it at a conscious level. The guy I trained under (bouncer not martial artist, though the guy easily could have been a dan grade by skill alone in pick a hands-only striking art) was scary good at this. He'd get that mental top position on people as they came in the door to the nightclub, all with a smile and a gentle word, and a firm - not hard - handshake. It was neat to watch. I learned a lot from him.

lars beyer
07-14-2015, 03:33 AM
Hi again,

Would the following video quotes from footage of O´sensei in action qualify as examples related to the above question: “Drawing out the attacks” ?
I guess most likely there are different things in play but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on these examples.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr3Z5r26R2o
At the 1:07 mark ?
At the 1:13 mark ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnMTcgSY3F0
At the 0:39 mark ?
At the 1:00 mark ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtSBuW7nqBE
At the 0:39 mark ?
Around the 2:27 mark ?
at the 2.33 mark ?
Or at the 2:41 mark.. ?
Or the 3:07 mark ?
Or the 5:48 mark ?

Best regards,
Lars

Ethan Weisgard
07-16-2015, 10:30 AM
In the clips that Lars posted O - Sensei is basically leading all the time! Saito Sensei would quote O - Sensei's phrase "Aite no Ki wo yobidasu" - to call out your partner / opponent's ki. He used this term specifically when doing the "pre-emptive shomen uchi" that you can see O Sensei doing at the 1.27 mark on Lars' first clip. It consists of Nage using his handblade in an upward arc towards uke's face, thus causing uke to reciprocate by doing the same. In cases where Nage wants to set up a situation where Uke is to grab - then Saito Sensei used the term "sasoi" - an invitation. But in no case did Saito Sensei ever just wait for Uke to come in and grab or strike - he always created an opening for each given attack. I see this very much in the clips with O - Sensei - he is always leading.

In aiki,
Ethan