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akiy
01-25-2015, 07:20 PM
XSndYcP1Ohw

Here is an Aikido video of Christian Tissier (7th dan) teaching at Cercle Tissier in Vincennes, Paris in December, 2015. The video includes English subtitles when he is speaking in French.

What are your thoughts on this video?

-- Jun

Dan Richards
01-26-2015, 01:41 AM
Good to see fresh evolution in Tissier.

I particularly like his statement at 9:18: "Forget that you are aikidoka."

sakumeikan
01-27-2015, 04:16 PM
XSndYcP1Ohw

Here is an Aikido video of Christian Tissier (7th dan) teaching at Cercle Tissier in Vincennes, Paris in December, 2015. The video includes English subtitles when he is speaking in French.

What are your thoughts on this video?

-- Jun
DearAll,
i consider the shiho nage shown here is potentially dange ous inasmuch Uke is receiving the waza in a manner that could easily damage his elbow/shoulder joint.Note Ukes elbow joint position. mid throw.I feel that there appears to be little regard shown by Tissier Sensei to this question of safety .Uke due to pressure on the elbow joint has to do in this situation an over the top ukemi. Looks good but is it necessary or required to hoist uke ?I think not.
Cheers,Joe.

Mary Eastland
01-30-2015, 09:50 AM
I agree, Joe. I also don't think that throwing hard demonstrates effective technique. I have always though he looks pretty muscly.

sakumeikan
01-30-2015, 04:32 PM
I agree, Joe. I also don't think that throwing hard demonstrates effective technique. I have always though he looks pretty muscly.

Dear Mary,
By all means throw a person, but I do not think using anybody as a crash test dummy or a bit of human cannon fodder is the way to go.If one wishes to be capable of doing aikido for decades you have to take care of your body.i had been hoisted around in my day, but my joints are now a bit suspect.your body has to last you a lifetime, why let anybody subject your body to undue stress?
Could it be showmanship, a bit of look how good I am???Hope all is well, with you,Joe

MRoh
01-31-2015, 03:02 AM
DearAll,
i consider the shiho nage shown here is potentially dange ous inasmuch Uke is receiving the waza in a manner that could easily damage his elbow/shoulder joint.Note Ukes elbow joint position. mid throw.I feel that there appears to be little regard shown by Tissier Sensei to this question of safety .Uke due to pressure on the elbow joint has to do in this situation an over the top ukemi. Looks good but is it necessary or required to hoist uke ?I think not.
Cheers,Joe.

I think its totally harmless if uke is relaxed, and there is not much pressure in the elbow.
There were others who threw even worse. Uke had to jump high to prevent fractures.
Tissiers way of throwing has more a leading charakter, it's actually soft.

sakumeikan
01-31-2015, 06:12 AM
I think its totally harmless if uke is relaxed, and there is not much pressure in the elbow.
There were others who threw even worse. Uke had to jump high to prevent fractures.
Tissiers way of throwing has more a leading charakter, it's actually soft.

Dear Markus,
You may we ll be right Tissier Senseis waza might be soft.Then again how do you define soft?Not only that some person watching Tissier Sensei might not be so soft in an application.I still say the vid shows potential for elbow damage.Ony art 2.51 approx does he do a Shiho Nage which I think is safe .Most of the others are elbow breakers.Why do you think Uke jumps? Cheers, Joe.

sorokod
01-31-2015, 06:52 AM
On these "unsafe" Shihonages, the uke's other hand is free to strike. In the video the uke's are careful to keep that hand "dead", not to show the reversal.

MRoh
01-31-2015, 07:28 AM
Most of the others are elbow breakers


Shiho nage was created for breaking elbows.
If you cannot see this any more, it's no shiho nage.
But I never heard about that Tissier broke any elbow. There were others who damged people.

Why do you think Uke jumps?

Tissier talks about that.
But it's ok for a skilled uke to be thrown like that, because he is able to protect himself. If he couldn't do, Tissier wouldn't throw him like that.
It's about being not afraid and keeping the body relaxed. For me it's an important part of the development in Aikido.

sorokod
01-31-2015, 09:17 AM
Shiho nage was created for breaking elbows.
If you cannot see this any more, it's no shiho nage.


You will need to re-send your memo to this guy (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KFTzznuesHd0rX3P9Z9YKcGyS-veHGQNQHs-WoXG3Do).

Alex Megann
01-31-2015, 09:53 AM
You will need to re-send your memo to this guy (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KFTzznuesHd0rX3P9Z9YKcGyS-veHGQNQHs-WoXG3Do).

… and this finish might look familiar too…

http://www.aikidodojolondon.co.uk/images/large/aikido_dojo_current23.jpg

Actually Tissier's shihonage is quite different from the way I have seen his teacher, Seigo Yamaguchi, do it.

Alex

sorokod
01-31-2015, 10:05 AM
… and this finish might look familiar too…

http://www.aikidodojolondon.co.uk/images/large/aikido_dojo_current23.jpg

Actually Tissier's shihonage is quite different from the way I have seen his teacher, Seigo Yamaguchi, do it.

Alex

Very nice photo.

Where did Yamaguchi get his Aikido from?

MRoh
01-31-2015, 10:36 AM
You will need to re-send your memo to this guy (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KFTzznuesHd0rX3P9Z9YKcGyS-veHGQNQHs-WoXG3Do).

That's one way to perform shihonage.
But this "guy" was a daito-ryu guy, so he must have known this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WrcJgYKDJUw

sorokod
01-31-2015, 10:41 AM
That's one way to perform shihonage.
But this "guy" was a daito-ryu guy, so he must have known this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WrcJgYKDJUw

Very likely- how is this relevant to your statement about shihonage ?

MRoh
01-31-2015, 11:09 AM
Very likely- how is this relevant to your statement about shihonage ?

Listen to what Kondo Sensei explains from 2:00.

The technique was designed to break the joints immediately. Normally ther was no chance given for ukemi.

Before it came to the position you see on the Ueshiba-photo, in daito-ryu the breaking movement was implied.

oisin bourke
01-31-2015, 11:27 AM
That's one way to perform shihonage.
But this "guy" was a daito-ryu guy, so he must have known this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WrcJgYKDJUw

That is jujutsu level shiho nage. In Daito ryu Advanced level is absolutely not about breaking or stressing joints.

sorokod
01-31-2015, 11:30 AM
But you do see that in the photo, the founder of the martial art of Aikido is doing shihonage differently from what Kondo demonstrates.

For whatever it's worth, this is also the way basic shihonage was taught by Saito sensei.

oisin bourke
01-31-2015, 11:50 AM
But you do see that in the photo, the founder of the martial art of Aikido is doing shihonage differently from what Kondo demonstrates.

For whatever it's worth, this is also the way basic shihonage was taught by Saito sensei.

Yes, I've trained with people in that lineage, and I'm familiar with it. It is closer to what I am talking about than what is shown by either kondo or Tissier in their videos. The pin by Ueshiba is pretty classic aikijujutsu, too, At the advanced level, shiho nage should be impossible to take ukemi from (in the sense of flipping out of it). There should also be no strain on the joints.

MRoh
01-31-2015, 04:00 PM
For whatever it's worth, this is also the way basic shihonage was taught by Saito sensei.

I have no problem with this basic form of shiho nage, but we practice both.

MRoh
01-31-2015, 04:02 PM
Deleted

sorokod
01-31-2015, 04:21 PM
Yes, I've trained with people in that lineage, and I'm familiar with it. It is closer to what I am talking about than what is shown by either kondo or Tissier in their videos. The pin by Ueshiba is pretty classic aikijujutsu, too, At the advanced level, shiho nage should be impossible to take ukemi from (in the sense of flipping out of it). There should also be no strain on the joints.

Never in the many, many times I have seen shihonage demonstrated, was any part of it called "aiki jujitsu". We just practice the form that was taught by Saito sensei as it was taught to him by the founder.

sorokod
01-31-2015, 04:30 PM
I have no problem with this basic form of shiho nage, but we practice both.

Why only two variants? I am sure there are many other ways of doing shihonage like waza, why not practice them as well?

Carsten Möllering
01-31-2015, 11:58 PM
Saito Hitohiro sensei: shiho nage. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1422579428&v=OKvSAeINPZI&feature=player_detailpage&x-yt-cl=85114404#t=27)

MRoh
02-01-2015, 03:32 AM
Why only two variants? I am sure there are many other ways of doing shihonage like waza, why not practice them as well?

Yes of course, but here were discussed mainly two.

sakumeikan
02-01-2015, 04:15 AM
Shiho nage was created for breaking elbows.
If you cannot see this any more, it's no shiho nage.
But I never heard about that Tissier broke any elbow. There were others who damged people.

Tissier talks about that.
But it's ok for a skilled uke to be thrown like that, because he is able to protect himself. If he couldn't do, Tissier wouldn't throw him like that.
It's about being not afraid and keeping the body relaxed. For me it's an important part of the development in Aikido.
Dear Markus,

Taking your viewpoint to the extreme if Shiho Nage was developed to break elbows why not do this currently to students?I do not think any uke would appreciate a broken elbow.Our Health Cetres would be overwhelmed .Its not about being afraid or relaxed its about teachers using common sense and safe practice.If Tissier or anbody else took a beginner and threw him like shown would the junior survive? I think not. Cheers, Joe.

sakumeikan
02-01-2015, 04:19 AM
Saito Hitohiro sensei: shiho nage. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1422579428&v=OKvSAeINPZI&feature=player_detailpage&x-yt-cl=85114404#t=27)

Dear Carsten,
Saito Sensei is powerful , but safe .No extreme elbow lock as far as I am concerned.Cheers, Joe

Carsten Möllering
02-01-2015, 05:20 AM
... but safe ... Yes, I think so. I didn't mean to question that. I posted that video only because I understood there would be no highfalls from shiho nage according to Saito Morihiro sensei.

I don't see the point of this discussion: Christian is explicetly known to not muscling his technique through, and also to be very, very carfull and aware regarding his uke.
Actually the well-being of uke is a major criterion in our examinations.

MRoh
02-01-2015, 06:59 AM
If Tissier or anbody else took a beginner and threw him like shown would the junior survive? I think not. Cheers, Joe.

I wrote in my comment that you cited above that this kind of throwing is practiced with uke who are skilled enough, not with beginners. How I said before, I never heard about any broken elbow in Tissiers classes or seen in the seminars that I have attended. So the practice seems to be save enough.

I'm not one of Tissiers students, but I know what it feels like to be thrown by him.

sorokod
02-01-2015, 07:16 AM
The problem as I inderstand it with this kind of shihonage is that it is not safe for the doer of the technique since the uke's other hand is free to punch.

sakumeikan
02-01-2015, 11:12 AM
… and this finish might look familiar too…

http://www.aikidodojolondon.co.uk/images/large/aikido_dojo_current23.jpg

Actually Tissier's shihonage is quite different from the way I have seen his teacher, Seigo Yamaguchi, do it.

Alex

Dear Alex
You beat me to the punch with your comment about Yamaguchi Sensei .Cannot say I ever saw him doing a Shiho Nage in the manner of Tissier Sensei.For that matter another teacher of Tissier the second doshu never did shiho nage like Tissier .what more can be said?Cheers, Joe.

sakumeikan
02-01-2015, 11:19 AM
I wrote in my comment that you cited above that this kind of throwing is practiced with uke who are skilled enough, not with beginners. How I said before, I never heard about any broken elbow in Tissiers classes or seen in the seminars that I have attended. So the practice seems to be save enough.

I'm not one of Tissiers students, but I know what it feels like to be thrown by him.
Msrkus,

Unless you want to break a guys elbow deliberately , you should I hope try and throw students be they dan g rade or beginner in a safe manner.I was asking the hypothetical question , if a raw beginner was ubjected to the type of shiho nage shown by Tissier would the newbie be ok?A simple yes or no would be welcome/suffice as an answer.Cheers, Joe.

Carsten Möllering
02-02-2015, 03:08 AM
Dear Joe,

still I don't get your Point:
"If a raw beginner was subjected to the type of shiho nage shown by" Saito Morihiro sensei, shown in the video, I linked, "would the newbie be ok?"

To my experience for every technique there exist - mostly three - different ways to execute it appropriate to uke's skills. The question whether a newbie would be harmed or not is irrelevant. Because a newbie would not be thrown this way.

Plus:
The way to execute shiho nage shown in the video does not primarily work against the ellbow joint but into the longitudinal axis of the arm. Especially the version using the nearly stretched arm of uke.

MRoh
02-02-2015, 03:15 AM
I was asking the hypothetical question , if a raw beginner was ubjected to the type of shiho nage shown by Tissier would the newbie be ok?A simple yes or no would be welcome/suffice as an answer.Cheers, Joe.

If you do it slow and relaxed, lead him down and loose the grip early enough to let him roll freely, a talented beginner can survive it.:)
But thats the same for the shihonage you prefer.
You can do it in a way a beginner would not come back again next training.
Arikawa Sensei used to throw shihonage ura waza in a way your back of the head banged on the mat and made you see the stars. And he did it with beginners who had their very first lesson. That was the experience of my teacher when he stepped into hombu dojo the first time.
So it always depends on the way you do it.
The shihonage ueshiba shows on the photo is not a technique for saving an opponent. You can do it in a save way, but thats the same for almost every other technique .

sakumeikan
02-02-2015, 12:27 PM
Dear Joe,

still I don't get your Point:
"If a raw beginner was subjected to the type of shiho nage shown by" Saito Morihiro sensei, shown in the video, I linked, "would the newbie be ok?"

To my experience for every technique there exist - mostly three - different ways to execute it appropriate to uke's skills. The question whether a newbie would be harmed or not is irrelevant. Because a newbie would not be thrown this way.

Plus:
The way to execute shiho nage shown in the video does not primarily work against the ellbow joint but into the longitudinal axis of the arm. Especially the version using the nearly stretched arm of uke.

Dear Carsten .
I equally donot get point.Saito Senseis Shiho Nage imo would throw a beginner possibly up in the air , but i do not think the beginner would risk elbow joint damage.I was addressing Tissier Senseis waza which i feel is unsafe .I asked the question would a beginner survive an elbow crusher.
Shiho nage works because uke elbow joint is pointing upwards and pressure is applied in a downward manner .This breaks ukes posture to the rear. Simple body mechanics .Havent got much time for longitudinal axis of arm stuff.Science /anatomy was never my strong point.Joe.

Carsten Möllering
02-03-2015, 02:28 AM
Der Joe,

so without using the word "longitudinal axis" and other sophisticated stuff. ;)

Christians waza is not an ellbow crusher at all. It simply - and safely - guides uke to roll forward. I actually have practiced this with a lot of beginners being tori. And I have fellt it, when I myself was a beginner.
If uke is more experienced you can also guide him to take a high fall.

This is, because the waza is not made to affect and destroy wrist or ellbow, but to use wrist and ellbow to affect and bend the torso, the body of uke.

Two more thoughts:
I have heard people from other styles who tried this way of shiho nage often say, it would be too soft and not "budō-like", because uke is only guided to the ground, but not "thrown". And that it lacks martial aspect, because neither ellbow nor wrist nor shoulder actually is attacked.
Plus: It is my experience, that Christian takes care of children and beginners a lot. It is his concern that everybody can enjoy practice. Literally everybody.
I've heard him scolding one of his students because he lacked caution.
I've more than once seen him working with beginners and also with children during his seminar. While his fifth and sixth dan students had to play with themselves ...

The experience that touched me most: There was a woman, practicing for about ten years or so. But still not being able to do a forward roll. Christian saw her, watched her taught her. After about twenty minutes she did her first forward roll ever. Years ago, but her smile I still warms my heart.
It was a seminar with maybe three hundred people or so ...

So, I'm not talking about the rights or wrongs of shiho nage here, but only about Christian as a teacher.

I was addressing Tissier Senseis waza which i feel is unsafe .I asked the question would a beginner survive an elbow crusher.

sakumeikan
02-03-2015, 02:34 AM
Der Joe,

so without using the word "longitudinal axis" and other sophisticated stuff. ;)

Christians waza is not an ellbow crusher at all. It simply - and safely - guides uke to roll forward. I actually have practiced this with a lot of beginners being tori. And I have fellt it, when I myself was a beginner.
If uke is more experienced you can also guide him to take a high fall.

This is, because the waza is not made to affect and destroy wrist or ellbow, but to use wrist and ellbow to affect and bend the torso, the body of uke.

Two more thoughts:
I have heard people from other styles who tried this way of shiho nage often say, it would be too soft and not "budō-like", because uke is only guided to the ground, but not "thrown". And that it lacks martial aspect, because neither ellbow nor wrist nor shoulder actually is attacked.
Plus: It is my experience, that Christian takes care of children and beginners a lot. It is his concern that everybody can enjoy practice. Literally everybody.
I've heard him scolding one of his students because he lacked caution.
I've more than once seen him working with beginners and also with children during his seminar. While his fifth and sixth dan students had to play with themselves ...

The experience that touched me most: There was a woman, practicing for about ten years or so. But still not being able to do a forward roll. Christian saw her, watched her taught her. After about twenty minutes she did her first forward roll ever. Years ago, but her smile I still warms my heart.
It was a seminar with maybe three hundred people or so ...

So, I'm not talking about the rights or wrongs of shiho nage here, but only about Christian as a teacher.
Dear Carsten,
If that is indeed your experience thats ok by me. You have your viewpont [which i respect].I have mine. Lets say we beg to differ. Good debate anyway. Cheers,Joe.

shuckser
02-03-2015, 04:19 AM
This is not the only way that Tissier Sensei teaches Shiho nage.

Have a look at this video for his basic teaching of the same technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PQv5aR_hsg

NagaBaba
02-04-2015, 09:34 AM
This is not the only way that Tissier Sensei teaches Shiho nage.

Have a look at this video for his basic teaching of the same technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PQv5aR_hsg

We can clearly see he is not breaking uke balance before a throw. I was his uke few times for shihonage, so I could feel it very well. Instead, he introduced a ‘code’ – the way how uke must behave, so nage can practice his technique. That is his teaching. So in reality uke is jumping in the air by himself for fun and not because nage is creating correct conditions to do it.

sakumeikan
02-04-2015, 03:57 PM
We can clearly see he is not breaking uke balance before a throw. I was his uke few times for shihonage, so I could feel it very well. Instead, he introduced a ‘code’ – the way how uke must behave, so nage can practice his technique. That is his teaching. So in reality uke is jumping in the air by himself for fun and not because nage is creating correct conditions to do it.

Dear Szczepan,
I agree .Cheers, Joe.

Tim Ruijs
02-05-2015, 01:41 AM
He moves around quite a lot...not always taking the center.
turns his back in shihonage, aite does nothing, is not off balance....no kuzushi...meh...next!

Mary Eastland
02-05-2015, 06:28 AM
We can clearly see he is not breaking uke balance before a throw. I was his uke few times for shihonage, so I could feel it very well. Instead, he introduced a ‘code’ – the way how uke must behave, so nage can practice his technique. That is his teaching. So in reality uke is jumping in the air by himself for fun and not because nage is creating correct conditions to do it.

Was that his code for demonstration or for regular practice?

Carsten Möllering
02-05-2015, 08:02 AM
Was that his code for demonstration or for regular practice?"code" oder "agreement" in Christian's words describe a crucial aspect of practicing kata: tori and uke agree about what they practice. To my experience during seminars regular keiko with Christian is allways and with no exception kata practice. And I've heared him explicetly say that more than once.

Tim Ruijs
02-05-2015, 08:02 AM
It is good practise to allow a beginner to complete the exercise with 'some help' of tori. Getting the bigger picture, the flow of the technique is of utmost importance in that phase.

Later, when more experienced, tori will never allow himself to be off balance and takes ukemi when he feels he loses his balance. He is not thrown by aite, ever! That would indicate that he is too late with responding to the fact that he is losing (lost) his balance. In short, he just made a mistake.

We are taught that tori also does Aikido, also keeps control of the situation, does not allow himself to get unbalanced. aite/tori, student/teacher, yin/yang. One cannot exist without the other.

It is not a question of demonstration or regular practise. That suggests you do different things, which you should not. Ever watched one of the high rank 'original' Japanese teachers (Tamura, Tada, Endo, Tohei)? in demo and in lesson? no difference at all.

Bernhard Wardein
02-06-2015, 02:36 AM
Hi, I am the producer of the video.
Due to the fact that Christian Tissier performs a constantly evolving aikido and the video is shortened, it is necessary to put the shihounage-issue in the right context.
It is all about getting uke to be more and more an equal partner in his developement. On this and other seminars Christian showed how to absorb the usual attemt of shihounage and therefore nage has to change the way of doing. It is ment for very advanced uke following an elaborated developement, adding new qualities and making nage better. It is not ment for being more brutal and I exclusively saw Christian doing it this only to someone who is capable of dealing with it without pain or harm.
Greetings, Bernhard

Tim Ruijs
02-06-2015, 04:20 AM
Thanks for your clarification!


It is all about getting uke to be more and more an equal partner in his developement. On this and other seminars Christian showed how to absorb the usual attemt of shihounage and therefore nage has to change the way of doing. It is ment for very advanced uke following an elaborated developement, adding new qualities and making nage better.

This is precisely what I responded to. There is no difference between aite(uke) and tori(nage) when practising. There is only difference in their role to study the technique. Aite will adapt to the experience level of tori. For beginners this translates to learning the global shape/flow of the technique. On more advanced level aite will help tori less and less, until the point where tori must really take the balance of aite. Aite at the same time will not allow himself to be forced off balance and takes ukemi to prevent loss of balance (i.e. loss of control).

Both aite and tori will (at advanced level) maintain their posture and balance at all times, even when taking ukemi. As aite you should not BE thrown, you escape the technique by taking ukemi.

This aspect seems overlooked by many, many practisioners of Aikido, dare I say Aikidoka's?

MRoh
02-06-2015, 05:16 AM
On more advanced level aite will help tori less and less, until the point where tori must really take the balance of aite. Aite at the same time will not allow himself to be forced off balance and takes ukemi to prevent loss of balance (i.e. loss of control).


How can tori ever know whether he really is able to take ukes balance?

If you get thrown by a skilled person, you can't prevent from loosing control, you just can prevent from getting hurt.

As aite you should not BE thrown, you escape the technique by taking ukemi.


If you practice aikido as a form of contact dance, it might work this way.

A more skilled tori will break your balance, control you, throw you and pin you on the ground. In that case you are not the one who determines the action.

NagaBaba
02-06-2015, 08:54 AM
. On more advanced level aite will help tori less and less, until the point where tori must really take the balance of aite.
That never happens in Ch. Tissier style. I had a chance to practice with his many very high ranking students, every time I was corrected to follow famous 'code'. They simply don’t accept when uke moves other way and get immediately angry. The root of theirs behavior is they don’t know what to do with different reactions of attacker and how to control him in safe way.

So I lost interest to practice with this style because this ‘code’ (in short or long term) doesn’t allow the development of spontaneous creation of the techniques. And this is in contradiction with O sensei teaching.

Tim Ruijs
02-06-2015, 08:56 AM
How can tori ever know whether he really is able to take ukes balance?

Aite should (at higher level) only take ukemi when he feels he can no longer keep his balance.
It is this fine line where your Aikido evolves.....


If you get thrown by a skilled person, you can't prevent from loosing control, you just can prevent from getting hurt.

That 'skilled' person does not really adapt to your level, now is he? Yin/Yang, there should balance between aite and tori (see fine line above).


If you practice aikido as a form of contact dance, it might work this way.

A more skilled tori will break your balance, control you, throw you and pin you on the ground. In that case you are not the one who determines the action.
Again, he is not adapting to the level of aite. You should avoid this type of person, or educate them.
Unfortunately, many practisioners of Aikido act like that...these I do not consider Aikidoka's, but dangerous. They are in competition with you, not 'do'.

Tim Ruijs
02-06-2015, 09:13 AM
That never happens in Ch. Tissier style. I had a chance to practice with his many very high ranking students, every time I was corrected to follow famous 'code'. They simply don't accept when uke moves other way and get immediately angry. The root of theirs behavior is they don't know what to do with different reactions of attacker and how to control him in safe way.

So I lost interest to practice with this style because this ‘code' (in short or long term) doesn't allow the development of spontaneous creation of the techniques. And this is in contradiction with O sensei teaching.

I have never really practised on the tatami, but attended a seminar he (Tissier) gave years ago in Amsterdam. I noticed that while Tissier himself appeared to have some skill (explosive form), his students (which he brought from France) were not able to do what he did, You could not tell who these students were in the group af about 50 students.
In seminars with my teacher, you can immediately tell who his students are and who are not...even the lower ranks students....

I must admit that I always enjoyed the demonstrations Tissier gave in Bercy :D

MRoh
02-06-2015, 09:13 AM
Aite should (at higher level) only take ukemi when he feels he can no longer keep his balance.
It is this fine line where your Aikido evolves.....


That's normal behaviour.

But if you think you could be the one who is always controlling the situation, in the role as uke as well as in the role of tori, I think you are wrong. Is' theory.

Tim Ruijs
02-06-2015, 10:15 AM
That's normal behaviour.

But if you think you could be the one who is always controlling the situation, in the role as uke as well as in the role of tori, I think you are wrong. Is' theory.
Agreed. In the end aite will loose his balance and take ukemi. That would indicate thattori did the technique correct. Aite should however never give his balance for sake of tori, like is suggested by Tissier.

ChrisMoses
02-09-2015, 12:45 PM
We can clearly see he is not breaking uke balance before a throw. I was his uke few times for shihonage, so I could feel it very well. Instead, he introduced a ‘code’ – the way how uke must behave, so nage can practice his technique. That is his teaching. So in reality uke is jumping in the air by himself for fun and not because nage is creating correct conditions to do it.

Wow, I completely agree with you. :eek: I don't think that has ever happened before.

My beef with every video I have ever seen of him is exactly this, that there is no kuzushi. Uke is completely free to move right up until he cranks them over and they take a beautiful intentional hard fall. I fail to see the point, at that level it's just acrobatics.

ChrisMoses
02-09-2015, 01:14 PM
That's normal behaviour.

But if you think you could be the one who is always controlling the situation, in the role as uke as well as in the role of tori, I think you are wrong. Is' theory.

No, is not theory, is aiki. :D

john.burn
02-09-2015, 03:15 PM
This thread is pretty interesting, for a few reasons.

I've taken ukemi for Tissier and he's powerful, he almost broke my wrist on a kotegaeshi, it hurt for a long time... He gave me no quarter and I obviously wasn't one of his students - he muscled through and I was going where he wanted me to go and nothing was going to change that. He did apologise for the noise my wrist made ;).

And the other reason is Joe here. I've seen and had many a lesson from you on the mat. Subtle is not something I'd ever use to describe you ;). I'm surprised to hear you think this is dangerous particularly due to your lineage. Nice to hear though :).

You were a legend on the BAB courses, so many issues and complaints. Lol.

Please don't be offended, I'm sure you won't be.

sakumeikan
02-09-2015, 04:55 PM
This thread is pretty interesting, for a few reasons.

I've taken ukemi for Tissier and he's powerful, he almost broke my wrist on a kotegaeshi, it hurt for a long time... He gave me no quarter and I obviously wasn't one of his students - he muscled through and I was going where he wanted me to go and nothing was going to change that. He did apologise for the noise my wrist made ;).

And the other reason is Joe here. I've seen and had many a lesson from you on the mat. Subtle is not something I'd ever use to describe you ;). I'm surprised to hear you think this is dangerous particularly due to your lineage. Nice to hear though :).

You were a legend on the BAB courses, so many issues and complaints. Lol.

Please don't be offended, I'm sure you won't be.

Dear John,
As you say I was never in my early days considered to be subtle or had delicate applications of waza.I guess I was a bit competitive from years of judo. I did not mind being challenged on the tatami. However perhaps I had conversion on the road to Damascus.I realised that you did not have to be Mike Tyson to get the job done.Of course I am much older[76] so I do not operate in the manner of a30/40 year old aikidoka. The other reason is the aging process.Injuries which clear up fast when your young take ages to heal when you get a bit older.So again I consider tis when I train with other people.
I consider my earlier aikido to be an important part of my journey.Now I am on perhaps my final journey.
As far as the B.A b stuff is concerned its all water under the bridge. No big deal.
I rarely take offence, so no offence taken.All the best , Joe.
ps.I bet you muttered a few choice words under your breath when Tissier cranked your wrist.

Gerardo Torres
02-09-2015, 05:24 PM
Dear Carsten,
Saito Sensei is powerful , but safe .No extreme elbow lock as far as I am concerned.Cheers, Joe

Safer? :confused: I see Saito cranking it way harder and dangerously than Tissier. Saito's "furi kaburi" is like 30 cm from his head (he must be accounting for a big helmet), he starts cutting toward uke's rear then as the uke starts to fall he changes the direction of his cut - through uke's elbow - down to waist level all while keeping a moving base. Tissier's hands barely raise above the head, then cuts and leans in a way that looks more like supporting his uke's breakfall, cutting straight, and his student knows how to receive it by keeping head/hand/elbow/shoulder as close as possible.

As far a kuzushi-on-touch created pre-crank move: I don't see any in either teacher's case.

sakumeikan
02-10-2015, 05:22 PM
That's one way to perform shihonage.
But this "guy" was a daito-ryu guy, so he must have known this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WrcJgYKDJUw

Hi Markus,
I watched Kondo Sensei do Shiho Nage. I looked closely at his Uke. Might be wrong here but I think uke was not too happy about the pressure applied by Kondo Sensei on his partners elbow joint. Check the expression on Ukes face. Hardly a facial expression of joy methinks. Then of course Kondo Sensei blitzes Uke downing him with a head over heels ukemi. Gee, must be really good to reach such a high level of expertise, Cheers, Joe.

oisin bourke
02-12-2015, 12:53 AM
.

As far a kuzushi-on-touch created pre-crank move: I don't see any in either teacher's case.

Could you link some clips of aikido teachers doing this kuzushi?

Cliff Judge
02-12-2015, 05:45 AM
Hi Markus,
I watched Kondo Sensei do Shiho Nage. I looked closely at his Uke. Might be wrong here but I think uke was not too happy about the pressure applied by Kondo Sensei on his partners elbow joint. Check the expression on Ukes face. Hardly a facial expression of joy methinks. Then of course Kondo Sensei blitzes Uke downing him with a head over heels ukemi. Gee, must be really good to reach such a high level of expertise, Cheers, Joe.

It is actually both the shoulder and elbow that Kondo Sensei locks up and stresses. The throw is meant to hurt/damage/destroy those joints. In kata, nage loosens the grip on uke's wrist so they can fall safely.

But the main point of this kata is making Aiki happen on contact, the rest of it doesn't work if you don't have that....you wind up with an Aikido shihonage.

Cliff Judge
02-12-2015, 06:07 AM
In reference to how Tissier seems to set up collusion on the part of uke, in this video he is talking about it and it may seem that this is entirely the result of verbal instruction, a by the numbers choreography.

In the ASU - at least at Shobukan - we try to make uke "feel" like giving us their balance and taking a fall for us. There are many more wrong/unconvincing ways to do this than right. And an uncooperative uke can shut down anything of this nature (but sometimes you really are surprised). This is for both sides' training. If uke tries to shut down every technique they are just learning to be stiff. And learning to not be stiff but to not move unless you get the right feel is actually very difficult.

I think this is basically how Tissier tries to make training happen on his mat, and I think it is one of the paradigms Aikido is really good for.

ChrisMoses
02-12-2015, 12:19 PM
Could you link some clips of aikido teachers doing this kuzushi?

Just about anything by Hiroshi Ikeda Sensei.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9DXIIyAeZE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjqYQWdcHdc
Some Takumakai DR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw92y9yb-Y0

Hell, even this old video of me and Jeremy shows kuzushi -> tsukuri -> kake pretty clearly. I will say though that we've reworked a lot of what we're doing after being influenced by Akuzawa Sensei and especially Dan. One of the exercises at the end we've found doesn't really work on anyone in the dojo anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0xD1WJRavA

phitruong
02-12-2015, 12:56 PM
Just about anything by Hiroshi Ikeda Sensei.


i was going to mention this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB6FJ-Via9U
half way through the video he discussed about shihonage

oisin bourke
02-12-2015, 01:51 PM
Just about anything by Hiroshi Ikeda Sensei.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9DXIIyAeZE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjqYQWdcHdc
Some Takumakai DR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw92y9yb-Y0

Hell, even this old video of me and Jeremy shows kuzushi -> tsukuri -> kake pretty clearly. I will say though that we've reworked a lot of what we're doing after being influenced by Akuzawa Sensei and especially Dan. One of the exercises at the end we've found doesn't really work on anyone in the dojo anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0xD1WJRavA

Thanks for that Chris.

Gerardo Torres
02-12-2015, 03:55 PM
Could you link some clips of aikido teachers doing this kuzushi?
H. Ikeda, as others have pointed out, is a good example. N. Tamura also comes to mind; from what I've seen he also seemed to try to work balance breaking outside waza. I tried but could not find a video of Shioda that was not his uke smashing routine.

It's hard to find good aikido videos. There's often a cult-like behavior surrounding famous shihan so their uke tend to be over conditioned and it's difficult to discern what's real and not. I wish they all just did simple push/grab tests in a neutral setting, without trained uke, so it would be easier to see who can do what.

Anyway, I recently saw this video featuring S. Yamaguchi, which is worth a look for how he unbalances his uke upon first touch (and waza seems like a by-product of that), and the things he talks about are quite relevant to that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0CkjGyykm4

kewms
02-12-2015, 05:17 PM
IIRC, Tissier Sensei studied with Yamaguchi Sensei, as did quite a few other notable teachers.

Katherine

Alex Megann
02-13-2015, 03:43 AM
I tried but could not find a video of Shioda that was not his uke smashing routine.

As a public service, here is an excellent non-uke-smashing video clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCgqsIm1hcE) of Shioda Sensei (actually they aren't too hard to find, Geraldo!)

Alex

allowedcloud
02-13-2015, 09:50 AM
IIRC, Tissier Sensei studied with Yamaguchi Sensei, as did quite a few other notable teachers.

Katherine

However most of those teachers took Yamaguchi's classes at Hombu dojo and/or attended seminars he held. They did not train at his private dojo. This is an important distinction when people claim lineage from him.

Carsten Möllering
02-13-2015, 10:00 AM
This is an important distinction when people claim lineage from him.Yes, indeed. It is. ;)

oisin bourke
02-13-2015, 12:25 PM
H. Ikeda, as others have pointed out, is a good example. N. Tamura also comes to mind; from what I've seen he also seemed to try to work balance breaking outside waza. I tried but could not find a video of Shioda that was not his uke smashing routine.

It's hard to find good aikido videos. There's often a cult-like behavior surrounding famous shihan so their uke tend to be over conditioned and it's difficult to discern what's real and not. I wish they all just did simple push/grab tests in a neutral setting, without trained uke, so it would be easier to see who can do what.

Anyway, I recently saw this video featuring S. Yamaguchi, which is worth a look for how he unbalances his uke upon first touch (and waza seems like a by-product of that), and the things he talks about are quite relevant to that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0CkjGyykm4

Thanks for that. The subtitles are enlightening. And it's a good point. It can be very hard to tell when kuzushi has been applied and by whom.