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akiy
01-23-2015, 05:10 PM
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Here is an Aikido video of Yoshinobu Takeda (8th dan, Aikikai, Aikido Kenkyukai International) teaching at a summer intensive workshop in 2004.

What are your thoughts on this video clip?

-- Jun

Jonathan
01-23-2015, 11:56 PM
The overly-compliant uke detract from the demonstration. I can just see skilled karate-ka or judo-ka watching this and laughing derisively. And perhaps rightly so.

MRoh
01-24-2015, 05:01 AM
The overly-compliant uke detract from the demonstration. I can just see skilled karate-ka or judo-ka watching this and laughing derisively. And perhaps rightly so.

Let them laugh, they also laughed when they saw Ueshiba moving with compliant uke.
In no way they are right.
I think Takeda is maybe the best of Yamaguchi Saigos students.
His ability to let people move in the way he wishes are remarkable.
It's true that his ukes are compliant, but in some way it is self protection. His movements can be sharp as a sword.

Carl Thompson
01-24-2015, 06:45 AM
Let them laugh, they also laughed when they saw Ueshiba moving with compliant uke.
In no way they are right.
I think Takeda is maybe the best of Yamaguchi Saigos students.
His ability to let people move in the way he wishes are remarkable.
It's true that his ukes are compliant, but in some way it is self protection. His movements can be sharp as a sword.

I think Ueshiba Osensei probably had no problem demonstrating an art that he didn't want stolen with compliant uke but according to many of his direct students, that was not what he expected in regular training. That's not to say teachers like Takeda aren't entitled to do their own thing.

Carl

MRoh
01-24-2015, 09:28 AM
I think Ueshiba Osensei probably had no problem demonstrating an art that he didn't want stolen with compliant uke but according to many of his direct students, that was not what he expected in regular training. That's not to say teachers like Takeda aren't entitled to do their own thing.

Carl

I haven't seen Takeda in regular training, only in seminars. But I heared he teaches basics as any other teacher.
People like him are often reduced to one aspect of their aikido.

sorokod
01-24-2015, 12:10 PM
I think Ueshiba Osensei probably had no problem demonstrating an art that he didn't want stolen with compliant uke but according to many of his direct students, that was not what he expected in regular training. That's not to say teachers like Takeda aren't entitled to do their own thing.

Carl

Maybe Takeda has his own private Iwama :-)

Jonathan
01-24-2015, 12:59 PM
Let them laugh, they also laughed when they saw Ueshiba moving with compliant uke.

Oh? I don't recall hearing any stories of other martial artists laughing at OSensei's martial skills...

His ability to let people move in the way he wishes are remarkable.

Perhaps. But the video clip certainly didn't make that clear.

It's true that his ukes are compliant, but in some way it is self protection. His movements can be sharp as a sword.

Again, this wasn't much in evidence in the video clip. Self-protective or not, his uke were rather too responsive, I think.

Jeremy Hulley
01-24-2015, 01:26 PM
You don't see in that video how well he really controls uke, takes their center, or how much relaxed power he creates. He threw me harder than anyone ever to that point or since.

Cliff Judge
01-24-2015, 03:27 PM
I bet you being a "compliant uke" for this guy would make you ridiculously strong in short order.

Jonathan
01-24-2015, 09:53 PM
I bet you being a "compliant uke" for this guy would make you ridiculously strong in short order.

That's what happens when you're the only one doing all the work! ;)

MRoh
01-25-2015, 05:18 AM
That's what happens when you're the only one doing all the work! ;)

Ah, you think he did not have to do any work to get where he is?

Walter Martindale
01-25-2015, 01:47 PM
Ah, you think he did not have to do any work to get where he is?

Not wanting to speak for Jon but... we both had Kawahara Yukio as shihan in our backgrounds.

I suspect that Takeda sensei did a LOT of work to get where he is.

It's really hard to say just how much of the uke grunting and groaning with big ukemi is "real" here, and how much is being overly compliant, but I wish Kawahara was still alive - he didn't like uke dancing for him, and the very rare instances I was thrown by him I assure you I wasn't cooperating, apart from trying to punch his lights out (at his request) - man did I hit the ground hard. Harder than when I was getting NAILED by judo people such as Doug Rogers (1964 Olympic Silver Medal, godan) or some of the folks who knocked me around in Tokyo. Unfortunately Kawahara didn't like people taking video of his teaching.

To me, it looks like Takeda sensei's demonstration is depending a bit too much on uke doing what was expected of them rather than actually trying to give nage a good solid strike... I could be wrong, but...

MRoh
01-25-2015, 02:13 PM
Just another way of keiko.
I guess Takeda knows others, also from own experience...

When he threw me, I didn't have the feeling he really cared if I was compliant or not.
He just moved, and l was thrown.

finn76
01-25-2015, 05:25 PM
An absolute farce. This is why aikido is beginning to generate a bad reputation.

Jonathan
01-25-2015, 06:52 PM
Ah, you think he did not have to do any work to get where he is?

No. That's not what I meant at all. My comment was aimed at the work an overly-compliant uke has to do to be overly-compliant and how it can allow nage to move rather more easily and comfortably than he would be able to with a person less familiar with the ukemi and less motivated to make him look good.

I expect Takeda sensei had to work just as hard taking ukemi for Yamaguchi sensei as his own uke have to work taking ukemi for him.

As I said, I am only making comment on this one video clip. There very well may be other clips where Takeda sensei doesn't have such helpful uke and is able, therefore, to demonstrates his power and control over his uke much more clearly.

Regards,

Jon.

Adam Huss
01-25-2015, 07:12 PM
There seem to be people here that train with this instructor. I am curious to know what ideas he is trying to get across in the demonstration?

MRoh
01-26-2015, 07:05 AM
As I said, I am only making comment on this one video clip. There very well may be other clips where Takeda sensei doesn't have such helpful uke and is able, therefore, to demonstrates his power and control over his uke much more clearly.


"Power" is a thing you never can see on a video.
One can make an exerted face while throwing people around, and his uke likes to be smashed down on the mat and makes a loud noise.
So everybody says, wow, what powerful people, but in reality maybe there is nothing then muscularity.

How I said before, Ueshiba also was criticised because it looked like fake when he threw people without touching them when he was old, and also in younger times it was said that he only let his own compliant students take ukemi for him.
His skilles were doupted by people like Yukioshi Sagawa for example, you can read it in "transparent power".
But Ueshiba is a myth.

Jonathan
01-26-2015, 09:53 AM
"Power" is a thing you never can see on a video.
One can make an exerted face while throwing people around, and his uke likes to be smashed down on the mat and makes a loud noise.
So everybody says, wow, what powerful people, but in reality maybe there is nothing then muscularity.

Well, even if the power is largely muscular in origin, it is still power.

How I said before, Ueshiba also was criticised because it looked like fake when he threw people without touching them when he was old, and also in younger times it was said that he only let his own compliant students take ukemi for him.

I see. So, this makes it all right for Takeda to do the same?

His skilles were doupted by people like Yukioshi Sagawa for example, you can read it in "transparent power".
But Ueshiba is a myth.

No, I'm quite sure OSensei existed. He is not a myth. ;)

Cliff Judge
01-26-2015, 10:20 AM
This is the same Takeda whose dojo is known for having a tradition of an "everybody takes ukemi again and again until they can't get up" kind of practice. I dunno how long I would last.

Maybe that's taking things too far in one direction for some, but I think Aikido works better on that end of the scale than whatever it is compliance-haters think is better...I'd ask for youtube clips but I am pretty sure all we'll see are examples of another type of compliance..

Conrad Gus
01-26-2015, 04:56 PM
Not wanting to speak for Jon but... we both had Kawahara Yukio as shihan in our backgrounds.

I suspect that Takeda sensei did a LOT of work to get where he is.

It's really hard to say just how much of the uke grunting and groaning with big ukemi is "real" here, and how much is being overly compliant, but I wish Kawahara was still alive - he didn't like uke dancing for him, and the very rare instances I was thrown by him I assure you I wasn't cooperating, apart from trying to punch his lights out (at his request) - man did I hit the ground hard. Harder than when I was getting NAILED by judo people such as Doug Rogers (1964 Olympic Silver Medal, godan) or some of the folks who knocked me around in Tokyo. Unfortunately Kawahara didn't like people taking video of his teaching.

To me, it looks like Takeda sensei's demonstration is depending a bit too much on uke doing what was expected of them rather than actually trying to give nage a good solid strike... I could be wrong, but...

I've trained with both (and got my black belt from Kawahara Sensei). Apples and oranges. Can't be compared.

The question that pops into my head is always: "Would this style of aikido work with a non-compliant uke?"

Kawahara: DEFINITELY (as in scaaaary).
Takeda: No, and I don't think he would do remotely the same stuff if attacked in real life (at least I hope not).

I guess it depends if the answer to that question matters to you or not. For a lot of the Kenkyukai folks I really think that they believe it is the wrong question to be asking. It's a different set of goals and values, where the question of "martial effectiveness" doesn't really come up a lot.

To each their own. I know I had a lot of fun at the seminar I attended with Takeda Sensei, but I wouldn't choose it as my every day practice. I chalk it up to the luxury of living in a mostly peaceful society.

MRoh
01-27-2015, 08:17 AM
The question that pops into my head is always: "Would this style of aikido work with a non-compliant uke?"

Every so called "style" of Aikido is just a way to realize specific aspects of keiko

Watching such kind of keiko, on should not ask whether that stuff would work out in the streets.

One should ask which apects of aikido it trains and how one could benefit from doing such keiko from time to time.

AsimHanif
01-27-2015, 09:34 AM
Every so called "style" of Aikido is just a way to realize specific aspects of keiko

Watching such kind of keiko, on should not ask whether that stuff would work out in the streets.

One should ask which apects of aikido it trains and how one could benefit from doing such keiko from time to time.

Exactly.

Mary Eastland
01-27-2015, 09:56 AM
I see blending and perfect timing.

PeterR
01-27-2015, 10:08 AM
There is a good reason not to put videos of yourself up or allow filming.

You will always be judged by what others want to see - not what you are trying to show.

If you are going to get esoteric - be prepared to be ridiculed.

Cliff Judge
01-27-2015, 10:23 AM
The question that pops into my head is always: "Would this style of aikido work with a non-compliant uke?"

This question reduces to an interesting one, that I think illustrates one of the challenges Aikido has that is particular.

"Would this style of Aikido training look the same with unfamiliar ukes who were not used to it?"

(Show me a non-compliant uke, I will show you someone who just needs to be hit and cranked a bit to encourage them to relax.)

We all know we're practicing the same martial art. We are pretty sure there are different levels of understanding and focus on the principles between styles, groups, and dojos. But people seem shocked, at times, to realize how diverse training methods and attitudes toward budo are out there.

I think this goes back to Takeda's travelling seminar style of transmission. The shihan demonstrates, the students attempt to imitate. If the shihan were teaching each individual student hands-on, there would be no question that if you stepped into a different dojo you'd have a completely different experience.

MRoh
01-27-2015, 11:02 AM
Well, even if the power is largely muscular in origin, it is still power.


But it's not the kind of power we try to develope in Aikido.
There is always one with stronger muscles.
For one who has a strong muscular body by nature it's easy to smash people to the ground.
But where is his effort to encrease?

I see. So, this makes it all right for Takeda to do the same?

I don't think he can do the same as Ueshiba.

What I wanted to say is, by watching a video it's not easy to decide if it's real power what you see, even if it looks "hard".

Real good swordsman never swing their sword in a way that it looks fast, good martial artists don't act looking strong.
Budo is not viewy.

Jonathan
01-27-2015, 05:27 PM
But it's not the kind of power we try to develope in Aikido.
There is always one with stronger muscles.
For one who has a strong muscular body by nature it's easy to smash people to the ground.
But where is his effort to encrease?

I wasn't suggesting that muscular power was the only - or the best - sort of power to develop in Aikido. But muscular power is, regardless, still power. Smashing a person down with external, muscular power may not be as efficient as doing so with internal power, but the person is smashed down powerfully all the same. So, when I see someone crushed into the ground with a powerful throw I am able to acknowledge that the throw was truly powerful. But when I see uke throwing himself and in doing so exaggerating the power of nage's throw, I naturally tend to wonder, not just about the power, but about the general martial usefulness of what nage is doing.

What I wanted to say is, by watching a video it's not easy to decide if it's real power what you see, even if it looks "hard".

See above.

Real good swordsman never swing their sword in a way that it looks fast, good martial artists don't act looking strong.
Budo is not viewy.

Sorry to be disagreeable, but have you ever watched Tetsuzan Kuroda doing swordwork? The man is lightning fast with a sword! And he is very highly regarded internationally as an extremely skilled swordsman. The best judoka in the world typically exude strength and power- and you can certainly see these things in their throwing! I don't think, then, that I can agree with you that Budo is not "viewy."

Regards,

Jon.

MRoh
01-28-2015, 05:03 AM
The best judoka in the world typically exude strength and power- and you can certainly see these things in their throwing!

So watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46veLgINFjU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vqM_lgVzIM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aS6Bgk9aws

This is one of the best Judoka the world has ever seen.

MRoh
01-28-2015, 09:13 AM
Smashing a person down with external, muscular power may not be as efficient as doing so with internal power, but the person is smashed down powerfully all the same. So, when I see someone crushed into the ground with a powerful throw I am able to acknowledge that the throw was truly powerful.

So how does he get into the position to throw powerful, and how does the ability to throw hard helps him to get into a good position for doing so in a fight? Aren't there various abilities we have to develop?

Normally all we do in Aikido is keiko, or kata. We don't really fight. In all the keiko we do in aikido, we rely on cooperation of uke. In which way uke is cooperating, depends on the way of practice and which requirements are placed on the behavior of uke by the respective sensei.

No aikido shihan ore any other teacher I have seen told any of his students to attack as he wishes or to try do do all he can to knock him out. Most of them try to teach their students some important aspects of aikido as they themselves understood. For to realize their method of teaching they normally need the support of their students. That's the reason why the most senseis prefer uke who know what they want to teach and are able to move in a way the method requires. usually dan-grades of their own shool.
So if one tries to develop powerful throw, he needs one who places himself at his disposal.
For another one who teaches to develop perfect blending and timing and who presents a method to develop this (also if he himself would not have need for that behaviour) , the demands made on his uke changes.

We should try to accept that there are different ways to train, and from time to time it is neccessary to departure from familiar thought and behaviour patterns. That's the reason why I visit such seminars from time to time.

Jonathan
01-28-2015, 11:27 AM
So how does he get into the position to throw powerful, and how does the ability to throw hard helps him to get into a good position for doing so in a fight? Aren't there various abilities we have to develop?

Yes, there are.

Normally all we do in Aikido is keiko, or kata. We don't really fight. In all the keiko we do in aikido, we rely on cooperation of uke. In which way uke is cooperating, depends on the way of practice and which requirements are placed on the behavior of uke by the respective sensei.

Yes.

No aikido shihan ore any other teacher I have seen told any of his students to attack as he wishes or to try do do all he can to knock him out.

That's always kinda' bugged me, actually. Especially when Aikido is presented as a martial art.

Most of them try to teach their students some important aspects of aikido as they themselves understood. For to realize their method of teaching they normally need the support of their students. That's the reason why the most senseis prefer uke who know what they want to teach and are able to move in a way the method requires. usually dan-grades of their own shool.

Yes, I quite understand all this. I have been doing Aikido for twenty-five years.

So if one tries to develop powerful throw, he needs one who places himself at his disposal.
For another one who teaches to develop perfect blending and timing and who presents a method to develop this (also if he himself would not have need for that behaviour) , the demands made on his uke changes.

Uh huh.

We should try to accept that there are different ways to train, and from time to time it is neccessary to departure from familiar thought and behaviour patterns. That's the reason why I visit such seminars from time to time.

Well, I don't think I ever mandated that anyone should practice in any particular way. I just remarked initially that I don't think martial artists from other kinds of martial arts would regard what Takeda sensei is doing in the video clip as particularly martially effective.

I have no issue whatever with trying new things that challenge one's thinking and behaviour (only to a certain point, of course). I have been working over the last five years or so to make my Aikido more martially effective, but this has required that I look very critically at the classical Aikido I was taught and practiced for some twenty years and recognize that much of it is quite useless in a fight. So, I get the whole "challenge your thinking" stuff.

Regards,

Jon.