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akiy
01-21-2015, 12:48 PM
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Here is an #Aikido video of Koichi Tohei performing jo kata.

What are your thoughts on this video?

-- Jun

Janet Rosen
01-21-2015, 03:17 PM
We practice this both left and right side; while the target strikes are specific the focus is more on "flow" than when we do Saito Sensei's 31 kata.

nikyu62
01-22-2015, 12:59 AM
The first one looked almost exactly like what was taught to me as Jo 1 while the other spinny stuff had elements of Jo 2 but not the same movement. My home dojo in Hawaii was a former Ki Aikido dojo that ended up Yuishinkai.

Janet Rosen
01-22-2015, 11:24 AM
The first one looked almost exactly like what was taught to me as Jo 1 while the other spinny stuff had elements of Jo 2 but not the same movement. My home dojo in Hawaii was a former Ki Aikido dojo that ended up Yuishinkai.

Then we come from the same lineage! My late teacher, Gayle Fillman Sensei's, direct teacher was Richard Kahoalii Sensei in Humboldt County but with ties to the folks in Hawaii and she traveled there several times to train directly with Tohei Sensei both before and after "the split." :)

nikyu62
01-22-2015, 11:37 AM
Then we come from the same lineage! My late teacher, Gayle Fillman Sensei's, direct teacher was Richard Kahoalii Sensei in Humboldt County but with ties to the folks in Hawaii and she traveled there several times to train directly with Tohei Sensei both before and after "the split." :)

Aloha Sempai!

Cliff Judge
01-22-2015, 03:44 PM
It looks weird in slow-motion, how he starts to jump back before his forward tsukis are at their apex. And also the backward arch of his head.

sorokod
01-22-2015, 05:02 PM
A lot of twirling and jumping, what purpose does this exercise serve?

Janet Rosen
01-22-2015, 05:46 PM
A lot of twirling and jumping, what purpose does this exercise serve?

Presumably the same spiritual/internal training purpose as OSensei's jo.... :-)
http://youtu.be/L88TbONoAXo

sorokod
01-22-2015, 05:52 PM
Was Tohei as religious as the founder? What does "spiritual/internal" means?

Janet Rosen
01-22-2015, 06:53 PM
O'Sensei's jo misogi was a spiritual practice - calling down the kami - and some believe it was also a part of his internal strength training do develop aiki - CF Ellis Amdur "Hidden in Plain Sight" so the idea of tenshi - "heaven and earth" - as in standing on the bridge btwn was both a spiritual and a martial concept.
You asked the purpose of twirling and leaping by Tohei Sensei and my reply was, and is, he was a direct student of O'Sensei and got it directly from O'Sensei for whatever reasons O'Sensei did it.

nikyu62
01-22-2015, 09:10 PM
Tohei Sensei was also a student of Shin Shin Toitsu which was a spiritual discipline, and a lot of the movements he developed were designed to help unify the mind and body. Ki is an example of a spiritual/internal concept, although it can be easily misunderstood. Still working on understanding myself, but I seem to be able to use it at a basic level.

Stephen Sereday
01-22-2015, 11:08 PM
The fist part is Jo22-1 (0 - 43 sec). The second part (43sec to end) has Jo22-2 and Jo 22-4 mixed in. I am unfamilair with the second part.

sorokod
01-23-2015, 03:13 AM
O'Sensei's jo misogi was a spiritual practice - calling down the kami - and some believe it was also a part of his internal strength training do develop aiki - CF Ellis Amdur "Hidden in Plain Sight" so the idea of tenshi - "heaven and earth" - as in standing on the bridge btwn was both a spiritual and a martial concept.
You asked the purpose of twirling and leaping by Tohei Sensei and my reply was, and is, he was a direct student of O'Sensei and got it directly from O'Sensei for whatever reasons O'Sensei did it.

By the same logic, and given posts #2 and #4, you are "calling down the kami".

Is that the case?

Carsten Möllering
01-23-2015, 03:55 AM
As far as I understand it by now, Ueshiba's misogi no jo - i.e. spiritual movement - was different from his aiki jo - i.e. martial movement.
Plus, I understood, that the spiritual practice of Tohei sensei - i.e. Shin shin toitsu dō - was different from that of Ueshiba - i.e. Ōmoto kyo.

So allthough I am not competent to judge the movement of Tohei sensei's jo shown in this vid, I'm pretty sure that it is different from Ueshibas misogi no jo. The more so because Tohei sensei emphasized that he did not follow Ueshiba's spiritual way.

sorokod
01-23-2015, 05:59 AM
My understanding is that the founder was a religious person and a part of an organized religious group (Ōmoto kyo) for most of his life. My understanding is that at some point Tohei was part of Shin shin toitsu dō (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinshin-t%C5%8Ditsu-d%C5%8D) which is described as Japanese Yoga. Calling them and their practices "spiritual" is probably correct and not very useful.

Carsten Möllering
01-23-2015, 06:59 AM
I know Shin shin toitsu to some degree because I used to practice from time to time with an actual member of Tempukai who is living in our region. Also my first teacher was a student of this member of the Tempukai and adapted some or their practice.
And yes: It is spiritual. Misogi is an important part of it. Also chanting. And some other Elements at least I understand as "spiritual".

sorokod
01-23-2015, 07:29 AM
I know Shin shin toitsu to some degree because I used to practice from time to time with an actual member of Tempukai who is living in our region. Also my first teacher was a student of this member of the Tempukai and adapted some or their practice.
And yes: It is spiritual. Misogi is an important part of it. Also chanting. And some other Elements at least I understand as "spiritual".

I am guessing that Tohei didn't claim to be possessed by a deity the way the founder did, which puts him on a different "spiritual" shelf in my mental library at least.

Can your knowledge of Shin shin toitsu contribute to the understanding of twirling and jumping?

Carsten Möllering
01-23-2015, 08:48 AM
I am guessing that Tohei didn't claim to be possessed by a deity the way the founder did, which puts him on a different "spiritual" shelf in my mental library at least.Well, yes. That's exactly whtat I tried to say, when I wrote: "So allthough I am not competent to judge the movement of Tohei sensei's jo shown in this vid, I'm pretty sure that it is different from Ueshibas misogi no jo. The more so because Tohei sensei emphasized that he did not follow Ueshiba's spiritual way." Isn't it? ;)

Can your knowledge of Shin shin toitsu contribute to the understanding of twirling and jumping?Nope. Not in the slightest.

Cliff Judge
01-23-2015, 09:05 AM
I am guessing that Tohei didn't claim to be possessed by a deity the way the founder did, which puts him on a different "spiritual" shelf in my mental library at least.


That's really all any Japanese martial art was ever for....to be possessed by a deity and embody her qualities. Until the modern period anyway.

sorokod
01-23-2015, 10:01 AM
Well, yes. That's exactly whtat I tried to say, when I wrote: "So allthough I am not competent to judge the movement of Tohei sensei's jo shown in this vid, I'm pretty sure that it is different from Ueshibas misogi no jo. The more so because Tohei sensei emphasized that he did not follow Ueshiba's spiritual way." Isn't it? ;)


A word that comes to mind that describes the founder - a shaman. A proper chanting, stick twirling, spirit-possessed and vision experiencing shaman.

So I agree and think that the founder was a shaman, and Tohei wasn't.

dps
01-23-2015, 02:37 PM
Here is an #Aikido video of Koichi Tohei performing jo kata.

What are your thoughts on this video?

-- Jun

A film from the 1960's way before he split with Aikikia. O'sensei was probably still alive. I saw this and other films that my Sensei had in 1984. My Sensei was a student of Shuji Maruyama when he taught in Cleveland, Ohio.

dps

Gary David
01-23-2015, 04:24 PM
Folks
Looking at this video and having some occasions to train with him here in California in the '70s....what I remember..... Tohei Sensei talked being practical....the quick movement seen in the video relates to movement without counting...which means movement without conscience thought. If you count you have to be in the thinking mind and that slows you down. Moving this fast requires that your footwork be precise or you can't make it happen.....you have fast precise movement without thought. As for the hopping...relates to jumping down, never up. A way to teach the idea and concepts of weight drop.

Talked with another friend of mine who spent time with Tohei Sensei in Hawaii as well as in the San Diego area during the same time frame and he agrees with the above......though this was not all of what Tohei Sensei was about.......

Gary

sorokod
01-25-2015, 01:45 PM
Another way to do Jo kata (this is 31 jo kata) quickly, at about 14:50 time mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCeOedrW-AM#t=14m50s

David Norton
01-27-2015, 11:12 AM
This looks like the 21-move kata. My instructor (Hagihara Sensei) teaches this.

sorokod
01-27-2015, 12:20 PM
This looks like the 21-move kata. My instructor (Hagihara Sensei) teaches this.

According to Saito sensei, Tohei left Iwama before the founder finalised the form that became the 31 Jo kata. His kata is an early version.

David Norton
01-29-2015, 08:39 AM
I'll have to look, but as I recall (I haven't done the 31 in years), Saito's 31-move kata is very different than Tohei's 21-move kata.

Janet Rosen
01-29-2015, 10:50 AM
I'll have to look, but as I recall (I haven't done the 31 in years), Saito's 31-move kata is very different than Tohei's 21-move kata.

Quite different. We do both of them in every class :-)
Obviously, all aikiweapons include tsuki, yokomen strike, shome strike, etc... but the sequences, pacing and focus are different.

phitruong
01-29-2015, 11:37 AM
I'll have to look, but as I recall (I haven't done the 31 in years), Saito's 31-move kata is very different than Tohei's 21-move kata.

by 10 moves? :)

i wondered if there is a 28 1/2 moves kata. i wondered if these teachers came up with the counts or they just twirled around and let their students figure out the counts. and if their students figured out the counts, i wondered what the conversations were like. :D

Janet Rosen
01-29-2015, 02:11 PM
by 10 moves? :)

i wondered if there is a 28 1/2 moves kata. i wondered if these teachers came up with the counts or they just twirled around and let their students figure out the counts. and if their students figured out the counts, i wondered what the conversations were like. :D

In all seriousness (sorry!) while in the 31 count there are counted striking down movements, in the 22 there are a couple of "jo flips" that really are downward strikes but are not in the count. When I teach newbies I always call them as a reminder to do them but not to "count" them. :-p

Chris Li
01-29-2015, 04:01 PM
by 10 moves? :)

i wondered if there is a 28 1/2 moves kata. i wondered if these teachers came up with the counts or they just twirled around and let their students figure out the counts. and if their students figured out the counts, i wondered what the conversations were like. :D

Morihei Ueshiba never counted. If he found you counting then you would get scolded. The students (Saito, Tohei, et al) couldn't figure out how to remember or teach the jo movements without counting and made up the counts to what they saw (or thought they saw) Morihei Ueshiba doing (obviously, they did this when he wasn't around, to avoid getting scoldings). Saito (at least) went through several different numbers before settling on "31".

Best,

Chris

sorokod
01-30-2015, 04:13 AM
Morihei Ueshiba never counted. If he found you counting then you would get scolded. The students (Saito, Tohei, et al) couldn't figure out how to remember or teach the jo movements without counting and made up the counts to what they saw (or thought they saw) Morihei Ueshiba doing (obviously, they did this when he wasn't around, to avoid getting scoldings). Saito (at least) went through several different numbers before settling on "31".

Best,

Chris

Very interesting, can you provide the sources for this information?

Carl Thompson
01-30-2015, 05:32 AM
"O-Sensei would get angry if we practiced in a one-two-three manner. "
Saito Sensei (http://www.google.co.jp/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CFAQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.musubidojo-aikido.com%2Findex_archivos%2FEntrevista%2520Morihiro%2520Saito%2520%2528ingl%25 C3%25A9s%2529.doc&ei=nGnLVOTtMMHRmAWKm4FA&usg=AFQjCNEIGZEyr_CORDK0w6mxBINs_zxRUw&sig2=swQLi9gNuFhaLkMHDsq3Yw&bvm=bv.84607526,d.dGY&cad=rja)

I get the impression Osensei really did not want people to steal what he believed he was passing on from the kami. He at least named sets of movements (ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo... ichi no tachi, ni no tachi, san no tachi... etc).

Regards

Carl

sorokod
01-30-2015, 05:39 AM
That's a great interview - thanks

O-Sensei would get angry if we practiced in a one-two-three manner. His way of teaching might be good for private instruction but when you have to teach 30 or 40 students all together the one-two-three method is the only one effective. This was why I gave each of the suburi movements a number. Later this developed into the 31-movement jo kata. In later years I was visited by one of the alumni from that period. I think he was a student of Miyagi Education University. He said, "Sensei, wasn't it the 24-movement jo kata?". I replied "Now we have 31!" (Laughter). In those days we had 24 movements. Perhaps we included some of the jo movements in hayagaeshi and this added up to 24 movements. However, this was not easy enough to learn and so I divided the movements into 31. People came to call it the "31-movement jo kata" without my realizing it.

Cliff Judge
01-30-2015, 08:33 AM
"O-Sensei would get angry if we practiced in a one-two-three manner. "
Saito Sensei (http://www.google.co.jp/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CFAQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.musubidojo-aikido.com%2Findex_archivos%2FEntrevista%2520Morihiro%2520Saito%2520%2528ingl%25 C3%25A9s%2529.doc&ei=nGnLVOTtMMHRmAWKm4FA&usg=AFQjCNEIGZEyr_CORDK0w6mxBINs_zxRUw&sig2=swQLi9gNuFhaLkMHDsq3Yw&bvm=bv.84607526,d.dGY&cad=rja)

I get the impression Osensei really did not want people to steal what he believed he was passing on from the kami. He at least named sets of movements (ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo... ichi no tachi, ni no tachi, san no tachi... etc).

Regards

Carl

That makes it sound like he didn't want people to learn things, which implies that he did not view himself as teaching a martial art. if you are a teacher trying to disseminate or spread something, how could you scold people for practicing?

I don't quite think that's it, but I do wrestle with this concept a lot in my own Aikido life.

I think it is more that Osensei didn't want his art formalized or systematized.

Which has been problematic for Aikidoka within Japanese society and without, but at least leaves us with a lineage of sorts...

Mary Eastland
01-30-2015, 10:43 AM
We have moved away from a fixed kata into short sets of movement made up on the spot and then practiced and forgotten.

sorokod
01-30-2015, 03:59 PM
We have moved away from a fixed kata into short sets of movement made up on the spot and then practiced and forgotten.

Like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op8eTQcz99E) ?

Carl Thompson
01-31-2015, 08:15 AM
That makes it sound like he didn't want people to learn things, which implies that he did not view himself as teaching a martial art. if you are a teacher trying to disseminate or spread something, how could you scold people for practicing?

Hello Cliff,

You can find this teaching paradigm throughout Japan's traditional arts. The onus is on the student to steal. It gives the teacher a great deal of control over what secrets are passed on.

While I doubt the founder was as cagy about teaching the abacus, he regarded the training methods of his aikido as divine. I can easily imagine him getting angry at people overtly capturing them in easily transmissible forms that any Tom, Dick or Harry could learn, without the benefit of listening to his lectures to understand the spirit in which they should be done and their purpose.

I think the founder knew that it would happen anyway, but he probably also knew that there would be various interpretations, with only his discourses on the spiritual matters behind them dictated and nailed down in his own words. Additionally, there can be pitfalls in those "easily transmissible" forms, especially without knowledge of the purpose behind them.

Regards

Carl

Ethan Weisgard
02-23-2015, 11:03 AM
I would like to add that Saito Sensei's methodical teaching form was accepted by O-Sensei at that time.
Saito Sensei also taught weapons for the last 15 minutes of his Sunday class at Hombu Dojo, also with O-Sensei's approval. So Carl's point about O-Sensei teaching ( or not teaching!) in the traditional way was O-Sensei doing things his way. But he did approve of the didactic way of teaching that Saito Sensei stood for, too.

Carl Thompson
02-24-2015, 07:11 PM
Thanks for the addition Ethan Sensei.

It is easy to forget that Saito Sensei's teaching style evolved under the founder's direct scrutiny in a small dojo.