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Bruce Baker
08-21-2002, 07:49 AM
Lately, I have seen a number of emotional responses to some of the posts, many obtuse in the educational aspect of reply, instead filling the reponse with absolute faith or plain old negativity.

How many of you know about the ceremony of "wipe away the tears and clear the clouded mind?"

It is an old way to deal with emotional stress, the loss of a loved one, and a means to restore balance to the disturbed mind.

It can be found in the history or the Mohawks, or in legends of the Haudenosaunee, also called the Iroquois, found in lower Canada/ New York State/ USA.

I would recommend that those of you who are haveing trouble finding emotional balance, read up on this ceremony and think about the troubles that haunt you. Be they the stress of your job, the stress of you personal relationships, or stress from what ever goals that seem to be out of your reach in this European industrial society that takes over our lives.

In an Aikido way, it is a way to get the things that are important back into your life, balance your thoughts with clarity, and allow you to see a clearer vision of what is important in life while giving up the stress.

Find it, read it, think about it, then after a few weeks, let me know if it helps.

shihonage
08-21-2002, 11:03 AM
I'm sure there is a lot more clearheaded people visiting this site, but because they think clearly, they don't post here.

virginia_kyu
08-22-2002, 09:50 AM
I'm sure there is a lot more clearheaded people visiting this site, but because they think clearly, they don't post here.
I am starting to think clearly that it is a mistake posting in the "spiritual" section at least. Its like jumping ino a hornet's nest.

Bruce Baker
09-01-2002, 02:39 PM
That may be Mr. S, but it would appear that you are not one of them.

The blatant statement designed to enlist either anger, or jeering is a sign of a narrow minded individual who needs something more in his/ her life.

I am sorry that your expressions of anger can not be instructive, creative, or used to guide others to find a neutral meeting ground where the pro's and con's of our thoughts could stimulate the Aikido community.

This ceremony, wipe away the tears and clear the mind, has to do with rebalanceing the emotional, as well as spiritual well being of person. Some people are seeking this with budo, or with many types of martial arts training, but none the less, it is still the adaptation of finding balance.

My solution?

Well, this is what works for me.

I don't know what problems haunt you to be so negative, but when such superfluous humor is posed in this type of statement, I would say there are problems you need to deal with before you can go further in your training.

There are many free services that can help you to deal with whatever may be spilling into your words.

Good luck.

Paula Lydon
09-06-2002, 09:49 AM
Thanks Bruce, I'll try to find that. Also, you seem to get dissed alot but thanks for your candor; I don't mind being tweeked in the least :)

SeiserL
09-09-2002, 12:00 PM
Let the winds blow and the clouds clear by themselves.

Until again,

Lynn

Bruce Baker
09-15-2002, 04:58 PM
That is the problem, Mr. Seiser. After the storm is over we are still carrying the emotional scars that continue to cloud our mind, and keep the tears of relief from our eyes. The sky is clear, but we are still in turmoil. There are physical ceremonys of sadness that release some of these emotional weights, and ... this is but one way to do that. (It would seem that many posters on the aikiweb are doing the same process by our interaction of posts, but over many, many months of posts?)

SeiserL
09-16-2002, 12:14 PM
The letting go of emotions is the wind blowing. Scars demote historic wounds that have healed. we all have them, they give us character and stories to tell. The sun always shines, it just we don't see it or remember it through the clouds on which we tend to focus our attention.

Until again,

Lynn (just Lynn, not Mr. Seiser or Dr. Seiser)

JohnDavis
09-16-2002, 02:13 PM
Well, here goes.

For some reason, I feel like I've fallen into the Dragon's Den or the Serpant's layer. I'll be damned if I say something or damned if I don't...

It follows that if one is like a mirror, the clouds having been polished away then if sorrow comes, sorrow (as Seung Sahn Sunim would say). In many schools of Zen, we are taught to polish the mirror of our being.

Then whatever comes, we reflect it, but we don't have to "be" it to do so. If we are like water, we flow around, over or under the rock (yes, even under) and never become the rock. However, if we become the rock, we get polished smooth or washed away. But I digress.

Many of us are like the mirror from our practice. When red comes, there is red. When white comes, there is only white. I think there is too much suffering in the world today and what O Sensei and Tohei Sensei say of it has meaning. What you say also has meaning: We should root out the cause of our suffering and deal with it. However, not having done so should not limit our attempts at compassion. Becoming a rock won't cure us.

Have you ever read Living Buddha, Living Christ by Thch Naht Hanh? It is an excelent book on this matter of spirituality and finding the good in life. I also recomend his book Anger for the same reason.

I think this would be more productive than accusing, as it were, us all of harboring deep seated pain that we cannot or have not released.

Well, that's my measure of rice's worth. :)

Kenn
09-16-2002, 07:33 PM
Bruce,

Although I find the idea of the ceremony you suggest intriguing........I think perhaps you should turn that scope back onto yourself. While I hope you don't intend to, a majority of the post I see you post have a somewhat arrogant tone to them.

My constructive advice to you would be that perhaps if you toned downt he arrogance, the point or points you are tyring to make..(some I have read seem valid, others appear to me to be hogwash) would come across more clearly, and perhaps better accepted.

Peace

mike lee
09-17-2002, 02:47 AM
Arrogance is my pride and joy! ;)

Before attempting to remove the speck from your brother's eye, remove the log from your own. Then you will have sufficient vision to remove the speck from your brother's eye. :D

(Blind as a bat me is :freaky: )

Bruce Baker
09-17-2002, 06:55 AM
Indeed, the words may seem arrogant, if you tie emotional significance to them, or compare them to you life experience with someone who is arrogant, in your opinion.

Any emotional context of negativity must be examined from a point of view that asks, why am I angry at the context of these words ... and why am reacting in this way?

Speaking the same exact words, with a different inflection, a different break in the words, or even having them be part of your original thoughts does indeed put a different context to their meaning.

So, in the examination of feeling that there is arrogance in the previous statements, is it the rebellion of youth that has closed your mind to looking within, or is it the Pavlov stimuli of life's experience that has conditioned your emotional response?

We try to reexamine many things that affect our Aikido practice. Why not our find ways to fix the emotional balance that allows for a clear thinking mind, not an emotionally driven mind that acts or reacts from animalistic instincts or emotional turmoil?

So, as some of us may appear as arrogant bas$ards, or Bi$ches, is it the person who is arrogant, or are they merely speaking the entire truth without holding emotional turmoil ... the truth of the words strike a nerve, eh?

We dislike people who display the things we least like in ourselves. Ignorance and pseudo knowledge do induce anger towards thoughts that strike home, but improbable statements induce laughter, go figure?

I have had a lot of years to examine these things, and I still have many things I can't justify in other peoples character, words, or the way they live their lives, but at least I understand why that is ... why I have to restain or divert my emotional feelings for that of logical balance in seeing the landscape for what it is.

Clear your clouded mind, reexamine the reasons you react the way you do, and how you could be a better person.

It is the next step to understanding Aikido after the experience of physical practice ... finding emotional balance.

Bruce Baker
09-17-2002, 07:09 AM
Arrogance is my pride and joy! ;)

Before attempting to remove the speck from your brother's eye, remove the log from your own. Then you will have sufficient vision to remove the speck from your brother's eye. :D

(Blind as a bat me is :freaky: )
Yeah, I guess I should shut up and let the lemmings go off the cliff into the sea, but damn me, if I don't stand there yelling, "Come back, come back..."

Tell you what, next time you get a chance, check out how things move in groups. People coming into a store, drivers on the hiway, even the events of your life that are good or bad? Kind of like watching waves of things that are gathered and thrown into groups.

Are us arrogant people in the wave, or are we arrogant enough to be surfing between the waves? Of course, now we have jet ski's, boats, wind surfers ....

Is it Aiki to see and share these things, or merely insane to think we could help others to overcome obsticles we have overcome?

Well ... Thanks Mike Lee.

Glad to see you have the heart to accept who you are, and share yourself with others on the Aikiweb ... even with the stones that sometimes fly in different forums.

mike lee
09-17-2002, 07:30 AM
The primary vow of the Buddha is to strive to save all sentient beings. This vow is not merely an intellectual commitment, but it is deeply ingrained in his spirit. It's not only his duty, it's his deepest desire. It's love, manifest. It can't be stopped -- it just happens.

But often times, in this polluted, corrupted world, it seems to go against the grain -- but this is only a superficial phenomenon. This is because it's the anti-thesis of "group-think," which is the fruit of illusion on a grand scale.

The deeper, universal current the truth can't be stopped by anyone.

L. Camejo
09-17-2002, 07:39 AM
Yeah, I guess I should shut up and let the lemmings go off the cliff into the sea, but damn me, if I don't stand there yelling, "Come back, come back..."
If the mind is clear enough to see the truth, then should that mind not realise that it is the nature of the lemming to dive off the cliff to preserve the survivability of the species? As such, a balanced mind should be able to understand the little picture in light of the greater one and maintain centre and calm.

Yelling come back, though sweet and coming from the heart and having good intentions, is moving contrary to the universal guidance that gives the lemming a compulsion to leap off a cliff. To the lemming, the cliff dive is the ultimate act of self preservation through sacrifice.

May the divine grant us the power to change what we can change, the serenity to let go of what we can't change and the WISDOM to know the difference.

Clearing the mind is the first step to releasing the ego. Things are never as they appear, unless viewed from all possible angles and situations. This is the advantage of a clear mind - thought unhindered by attachment, emotion, or too much logic. "Clear as the vast sky" according to Tsunemori in The Art of Peace.

L.C.:ai::ki:

mike lee
09-17-2002, 07:44 AM
Jeez. I'm sure glad my teachers and friends didn't let me run off the cliff because "it was my nature."

(My teachers and friends must have been real fools for not seeing "the big picture." Lucky for me!)

JohnDavis
09-17-2002, 10:26 AM
You all are making some very interesting comments here. I can see the motivation for all the points of view expressed.

For me, I am inclined to walk quitely and do good in secret. As to observing the interaction of humans in public, I agree with you Bruce. There appears to be a heard mentality, specially around malls. In fact, I often wonder if we didn't evolve from grazers instead of carnivores.

Keep up the good comments.

mike lee
09-17-2002, 10:35 AM
For me, I am inclined to walk quitely and do good in secret.

Is that why you made this statement on the World Wide Web? :confused:

JohnDavis
09-17-2002, 02:51 PM
Is that why you made this statement on the World Wide Web?

Mike,

I am curious why you ask? :straightf

I see no confilct in saying that I practice Intoku on a site like this... It was simply to state the position from which my comments come.

As to the gist of the thread, I note more than a small amount of arogance and anger in some of the posts here. Perhaps it is just me or just a Ki-wee thing, but I wonder if there are better ways of expressing opinions that don't involve attacking the views of others?

Is Aikido all about attack or is it about stopping attacks? ;) I don't know about you, but I was taught the later...

To stop this "attack" as it were see my question above... Why do you ask?:)

jbd:ai: :ki:

L. Camejo
09-17-2002, 11:02 PM
Jeez. I'm sure glad my teachers and friends didn't let me run off the cliff because "it was my nature."

(My teachers and friends must have been real fools for not seeing "the big picture." Lucky for me!)
The point of the previous post Mike is that there are times when one can help, guide and effect change on others' lives for the better and success may be achieved when the person takes it to heart at some level and starts to make that change on their own.

Then again, there are times when regardless of what is done, the guidance, help, and attempts to show someone the path of self preservation (as in the lemmings case) falls on deaf ears and they decide to do what they want, which can ultimately end in destruction (leap of the cliff).

Regardless of what we may prefer to think, all beings have free will and can exercise it whenever they want. It's good to be humble (not inferring that you or anyone else are not) and realise that though we may have the best intentions for our fellows their will is what will decide whether they take the advice or do their own thing.

Becoming overly attached to either outcome doesn't help the helper much.

Hope this clarifies.

L.C.:ai::ki:

Abasan
09-17-2002, 11:07 PM
Can we eat lemmings? If we can, instead of letting it all go to waste (i.e. cliff jumping) why not just catch this good source of protein and process it into luncheon meat or something.

You may not want it... but there are plenty of hungry people out there in the world. They might. Just a thought.

Bruce Baker
09-18-2002, 02:33 PM
Only if they are burned and with ketchup ...

Yum.

Kevin Leavitt
09-18-2002, 06:50 PM
The thing that strikes me as interesting is the assumptions that are made about people.

There are many paths, IMHO, no man can stand in judgement over another man's chosen path.

that said, I do watch people in the mall and COMPLETELY understand where you are coming from! I find myself "judging them" (I too have found my personal "path" to enlightment). The thing is...I am embarrassed that I find myself doing this and view this as a weakness that I must overcome.

The ego is a very tricky and deceptive enemy.

I like to share my enthusaism and experiences too, and I will gladly talk to anyone who wants to see my path...but I stop at judging anyone who does not follow the same path that I do....because you never know....I may get lost.

You can only be responsible for your own path and your own enlightenment, IHMO, if you find yourself labeling people as "lemmings" or "herd"...it smells like self righteousness and ego to me!

Aikido allows me to experience and challenges me to link the physical with the mental. I like many of you have discovered that you cannot expect to master Aikido simply by going to class. It requires that you refine not only your body and physical skills, but your mental and spritual skills as well.

I do think this is lost on many who study, but again, I am no one to judge who is "right" in their path or approach!

A pet peave of mine is they way people can wander aimlessly in a mall and walk right into you, oblivious to the fact that you even exist. It is a shame that much of our society as digressed to the point that we view each other as obstacles and if we do interact, it is basically to perform a "transaction".

I am throughly enjoying the discussion!

mike lee
09-19-2002, 03:03 AM
From this thread:[/QUOTE] but I wonder if there are better ways of expressing opinions that don't involve attacking the views of others?

(Sounds like the "teacher" of Michael Neal has arrived. Why not just go all the way and call them "personal attacks?")

From the "Is it real?" thread:
I'm sure if more people practiced "realistic" and aggressive attacks, they would find out their responses aren't quite as good as they imagined them to be.

mike lee
09-19-2002, 03:23 AM
From this thread:
... but I wonder if there are better ways of expressing opinions that don't involve attacking the views of others?

Attacking misconceptions is the essence of debate.

(Sounds like the "teacher" of Michael Neal has arrived. Why not just go all the way and call them "personal attacks?")

From the "Is it real?" thread:
I'm sure if more people practiced "realistic" and aggressive attacks, they would find out their responses aren't quite as good as they imagined them to be.
If you truly beleive that aikido is about "stopping" what you PERCEIVE to be attacks, then you're not really practicing aikido.

If you can not deal with what you PERCEIVE to be an "attack" in a virtual world, how could you even begin to deal with one in the real world?

P.S. Grow a thicker hide or pay me no heed. Who's angry?

JohnDavis
09-19-2002, 09:23 AM
From this thread:



Attacking misconceptions is the essence of debate.

Really? I was always taught that the "essence of debate" was expressing your point of view in the most persuasive manner possible. Debate in this country has unfortunately devolved into ad hominum attacks.

(Sounds like the "teacher" of Michael Neal has arrived. Why not just go all the way and call them "personal attacks?")

Ok, let's do that, for want of more civil discourse. Though I am curious just who Michael Neal is and why I would be his teacher?

From the "Is it real?" thread:

If you truly beleive that aikido is about "stopping" what you PERCEIVE to be attacks, then you're not really practicing aikido.

Ahhhh... So this is about Aikido "On The Street(TM)". Funny, I thought this was the Sprituality forum. Now just what is a "perception"? Is it not the only way that any one of us can view the universe? Also I wonder if the author of that quote has ever had to use "Real Aikido (TM)" of the physical kind "On The Street"? In 10 years of practice, I've never had to throw or restrain anyone off the mat. The verbal Aikido I used worked just fine.

In sales management training I was taught "the customer's perception is your reality". I feel this can be applied to life.

If you can not deal with what you PERCEIVE to be an "attack" in a virtual world, how could you even begin to deal with one in the real world?

And just how do you recomend I "deal" with what I "perceive" to be an "attack"? And again, is this not just as real as the "real world(TM)"?

P.S. Grow a thicker hide or pay me no heed. Who's angry?
I think my hide is thick enough. I was not addressing any personal attacks on me in my post, just bemoaning the fact that civil debate is a lost art even among the martial art of peacemakers. Or do you practice full contact attack aikido? Were the attacks on me, I would simply have not responded. As to who's anger?: Ok, I give... Who?

jbd

mike lee
09-19-2002, 10:18 AM
As to the gist of the thread, I note more than a small amount of arogance and anger ...

You said this John. So who is full of "arogance" (sic), and who is angry?
For some reason, I feel like I've fallen into the Dragon's Den or the Serpant's layer.

So who's the dragon and who's the serpant?

Bruce Baker
09-20-2002, 07:53 AM
Part of the problem with clearing the clouded mind is that the emotional turmoil, or sometimes Pavlov reaction is first to come to the surface, thereby letting the darkness take over. Take arrogence with a grain of salt, if you can both laugh at it then it is not arrogence but a double entendre', double meaning.

Arrogence is also a protective response when someone has been threatened by another person who would control his/her thoughts, but if you respond in kind it is usually a slap in the face not a neutralizing technique.

Yes, I have restrain people with simple twists and locks before and after starting Aikido, but indeed most events are handled with agile use of words rather than physical force.

So, although I see tempers flairing, and feathers bristling, maybe is time to step back and let each other be. Sometimes the clear mind see's it can do no more to enlighten or soothe its fellow human being in words, and deeds must take over. Since we are unable to affect deeds being in different locations, how about we let this one go in the spirit of finding the clear mind?

You only get mad if you care, because if you didn't ... you would say nothing at all.