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View Full Version : a thought brought on by the Latham Aiki Friendship Seminar


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Mary Eastland
12-21-2014, 11:21 AM
I have been thinking about what someone said about this moment they had in college where the perfect feeling happened. He looked at the basket and knew the ball was going into the basket.

Then this person said they were searching for that feeling again. I think searching for any feeling is a mistake. The now is missed by trying to recreate it.

Another feeling might happen but it will be when mind and body are coordinated again. Not when the mind and body are trying or when the mind is longing for something that happened in the past.

Paying attention to what is, accepting what is and moving with what is, is the practice. I have those feelings all the time. I never look for the feeling. It emerges out of the now and me paying attention to what is.

crbateman
12-21-2014, 12:09 PM
I have been thinking about what someone said about this moment they had in college where the perfect feeling happened. He looked at the basket and knew the ball was going into the basket.

Then this person said they were searching for that feeling again. I think searching for any feeling is a mistake. The now is missed by trying to recreate it.

Another feeling might happen but it will be when mind and body are coordinated again. Not when the mind and body are trying or when the mind is longing for something that happened in the past.

Paying attention to what is, accepting what is and moving with what is, is the practice. I have those feelings all the time. I never look for the feeling. It emerges out of the now and me paying attention to what is.
Agreed, Mary, but visualization is nonetheless a valid concept.

Mary Eastland
12-23-2014, 07:30 AM
Agreed, Mary, but visualization is nonetheless a valid concept.

Agreed...and visualization is done in the moment. Not during another moment when technique with an actual partner is being done.

lbb
12-23-2014, 08:07 AM
Agreed...and visualization is done in the moment. Not during another moment when technique with an actual partner is being done.

Well...no, that's not true at all. Visualization is the technique of creating a mental picture of an action at a time when you are not actually doing it. You visualize yourself doing it correctly in all its details. Then, when "in the moment" comes, the visualization you did when you were NOT "in the moment" helps you. You can't possibly visualize "in the moment"; that's the antithesis of being there.

Mary Eastland
12-23-2014, 09:59 AM
So there is not a moment when you are visualizing? Yes, there is that moment and then there are the times on the mat....I don't recall a visualization with my mind. I train in the moment. What happens doesn't come from " oh, I think I am going to do whatever,....it comes from being in that moment and doing the technique not thinking about the visualization.

Visualization is a way to train for me that involves feeling and seeing the technique as you said. The feeling happens too, which is of the brain mind.

lbb
12-23-2014, 10:27 AM
Mary, "visualization" is a coaching technique. I've explained in brief what it is. If you want to humpty-dumpty it into something else to try and prove your point, then go for it, but if you can't accept the terms that are being used by others who are trying to have a discussion with you, then there's no discussion to be had, just a lot of moving the goalposts.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-23-2014, 10:56 AM
Goalposts?

I thought this was an Aikido forum.

:D

Happy Holidays

Mary Eastland
12-23-2014, 11:40 AM
Mary, "visualization" is a coaching technique. I've explained in brief what it is. If you want to humpty-dumpty it into something else to try and prove your point, then go for it, but if you can't accept the terms that are being used by others who are trying to have a discussion with you, then there's no discussion to be had, just a lot of moving the goalposts.

So you get to define the term. I saw it as a way to train. I did not realize that you had pinpointed a specific term for the word and could use no other. I am not trying to prove a point. Perhaps you could look at the three fingers pointing back at you. Every discussion is not an argument.

AsimHanif
12-23-2014, 11:43 AM
Visualization... I imagine my elbow and knee are the same height or I can imagine elbow and knee are connected together by a cable. When I lower, everything moves together, in a relaxed manner, even when held. I do this so much until gradually I don't need to visualize but the feeling is the same.
(edit) Mary E, I would add this is just my take on visualization. To each his/her own.

Carsten Möllering
12-23-2014, 01:14 PM
I think searching for any feeling is a mistake. The now is missed by trying to recreate it.I think it actually is the most important goal of keiko to get to know a certain feeling, to learn to establish it and to be able to create or better to generate it at will.
Feeling here does not mean perception or sensation. But it means a certain state of being. It has to do with your body being connected and open. And with your intent being focused. It is also something you can direct within your body - and into your partner if you want to.

So in my understanding this form of feeling is required to be able to be able to fully open up to the form of feeling that "emerges out of the now".

As far as I experience it by now, visualization is one of the most powerfull tools to work on this first form of feeling, which I tried to describe.
In my language the word "Visualisierung", of which I think "visualization" is the translation, is a kind of technical term. It is used in all sorts of body work to condition the body in a certain way. Asim has described it very good I think: Golden threads connecting certain parts of the body or pulling up one's crown. "Having god in one's fingertips" is a Japanese one. Imagening a certain movement without actually moving is very challenging and essential one. And so on ...

There are indeed visualizations you may use in the actual moment of an attack. But mostly visualization is not applied when performing a technique. But rather this form of visualization is a tool to condition the body.

Michael Hackett
12-23-2014, 03:52 PM
I think there are at least two kinds of visualization that apply to physical activities, whether martial arts or some sport.

The first is the kind of visualization in which you visualize something like water flowing at a high rate through the unbendable arm, or imagining energy entering and leaving your physical structure. That kind of visualization is a way of explaining a principle or concept.

The second form is visualizing a complete action from start to finish-essentially practicing it in your mind. Years ago I attended a bull riding school taught by Gary Lefew, a former world champion bullrider. I was there to fight bulls to protect the student riders. Gary required all of the students to read "PsychoCybernetics" before they attended the school. It was really interesting to watch these young cowboys sitting on hay bales with their eyes closed, imagining riding a bull out of the chute. In short order they started swaying and swinging their arms appropriately to the circumstances they were picturing in their minds. It apparently worked well for them as I saw several kids who had never even ridden a horse successfully start riding bucking bulls.

I've certainly visualized specific attacks and techniques many, many times and when the time came to actually perform them, found the visualization valuable. Actually doing the techniques hundreds and even thousands of times obviously helped too, but the visualization had value for me.

lbb
12-23-2014, 03:57 PM
So you get to define the term.

No, I don't "get to" define it. I didn't invent it. I'm trying to use it in a manner consistent with those who DID invent it. For a definition, please see http://www.faqs.org/sports-science/Us-Z-and-bibliography/Visualization-in-Sport.html.

RonRagusa
12-23-2014, 03:59 PM
"...visualization" is a coaching technique.

It's also a process whereby I am able to mentally rehearse a sequence of events, in this case an encounter with uke. In addition to visualizing the technique, I am also evoking a particular state of being (feeling) that I refer to as coordination of mind and body. This process takes place in some other moment than the actual moment of the encounter. In that moment (the moment of the encounter) there is no conscious effort on my part to structure events in such a way as to mirror my mental picture of what I think should be happening. I just let the situation unfold in real-time and immerse myself in it.

Ron

Cliff Judge
12-23-2014, 04:21 PM
Then this person said they were searching for that feeling again. I think searching for any feeling is a mistake. The now is missed by trying to recreate it.


I agree with this. A dear departed friend of mine once offered me the following training advice to get the most out of freestyle practice: when uke comes forward, listen for the first action you think of taking. Clear that, and go with whatever comes up next.

You ever train with someone who wants a certain movement or technique to work, it doesn't for some reason, so they just sit there and try to do it again and again? I really don't think that it helps to try to find grooves when you train.

Carsten Möllering
12-24-2014, 10:40 AM
... someone who wants a certain movement or technique to work ... This is clearly not what ist meant by generating what is called "aiki-Feeling" or "qi gong - Feeling" or whatever it is called. Nor is visualization - at least in the way this term is used my contexts - about having a certain technique in mind or something like that.