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JoelLM
12-13-2014, 05:17 PM
Hello. I'm sure this has been discussed or asked, I've searched and haven't found what I was looking for. At one point I stumbled on a style of aikido that practiced a lot of its unarmed techniques with a sword(bokken) in hand. I'd like to find out who developed the style and what the style is called. I have search and haven't been able to find the video again.

Thanks for the help.

MRoh
12-13-2014, 05:53 PM
unarmed techniques with a sword(bokken) in hand.

That's a contradiction, isn't it?

Carsten Möllering
12-14-2014, 04:48 AM
I'd like to find out who developed the style and what the style is called.It was Nishio Shoji sensei who develpped those forms. So the style sometimes is called "Nishio Aikido".

It is important to notice, that he created these forms to teach and improve the body movement. They are not meant to teach how to actually use the japanese sword in an effective way. These forms are just learning tools for the tai jutsu. But you have to take into account that the way Nishio sensei teaches the forms is often somehow different from other teachers or lines of aikidō.

fatebass21
12-14-2014, 08:06 AM
Don't all forms of aikido practice a lot of techniques with a bokken at some point? Ie when the student is advanced enough to do so. Or am I misunderstanding Nishio Aikido as using a bokken at all times during training?

JoelLM
12-14-2014, 12:36 PM
Perfecl thank you Carsten that is who I was looking for.

crbateman
12-15-2014, 08:54 PM
It was Nishio Shoji sensei who develpped those forms. So the style sometimes is called "Nishio Aikido".

It is important to notice, that he created these forms to teach and improve the body movement. They are not meant to teach how to actually use the japanese sword in an effective way. These forms are just learning tools for the tai jutsu. But you have to take into account that the way Nishio sensei teaches the forms is often somehow different from other teachers or lines of aikidō.Good call, Carsten. This is the first thing that came to mind as I read the original post. Nishio Sensei was a huge proponent of how movement with the sword translates into movement without it.

Adam Huss
12-18-2014, 07:38 PM
Both aikikai and yoshinkan schools I attend practice basic technique and tai sabaki with sword. Here is one example of basic body movements, most call tai sabaki, but we term "kihon dosa." This is nice as it shows the basic empty hand form next to a guy doing sotai bokken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PvwB9klxtc

Keith Larman
12-19-2014, 07:53 AM
Just to add to the chorus a bit. While Nishio was clearly a highly visible and famous advocate for such things, I've seen similar training in any number of variety of places. Frankly I'd say that in many places it isn't so much about the style itself, but the person teaching. There are few absolutely standardized teaching methods out there and, in my experience at least, some sensei find using bokken (or jo) useful as tools for teaching basic tai sabaki. In other words, it's not exclusively something done by Nishio style although Nishio was certainly a high profile example and he made it an integral aspect of his style.

KEM
12-19-2014, 08:28 PM
Carsten it is true that Nishio Sensei developed an iaido to be an enhancement to Aikido learning. The sword is the 'Teacher' as Stephi Varjan Sensei commented last week at a seminar.
But can Aiki Toho Iai be used effectively 'as a sword?" Nishio Sensei was an accomplished/gifted swordsman before he developed Aiki Toho iaido. Being always concerned that his teachings be budo he made sure what he taught would work so I'm suggesting that Nishio Aiki Toho Iai can be used effectively 'as a sword.'
How does one test it? On tatami wara of course!
Yes, one can 'cut' with Aiki Toho effectively though I don't know how common battoh is in the style.
Tom Huffman 4° Nishio Aikido/Aiki Toho iaido was a direct student of Nishio Sensei in Japan for six years. He also is a 3° Toyama ryu hon iaido-battoh of the Morinaga line via Tasaburo Tokutomi 10°. Tom Sensei has been applying his expertise in battoh to Aiki toho and successfully 'cutting the kata' so to speak. If there is interest we have discussed making video for the Aikido community showing how the Aiki Toho can cut effectively.
Why is that important rather than just intriguing?
It is important because Aiki Toho is further validated by being shown to work for actual cutting. It is important because the teachings of Nishio Sensei included Aiki Toho and those who have done it know that the parameters of precision in Iaido are very tight. This tight, precise attention to detail translates to the 'empty hand' Aikido. Cutting requires greater precision than iaido kata. THe slightest rotation of the wrist will change the angle of the blade and cause the cut to 'scoop' or not make it through at all. There is a high demand on proprioception placed by Iaido and Batto that is hard to replicate any other way.
:triangle: :circle: :square:
:ai: :ki: :do:
Keith

crbateman
12-19-2014, 10:10 PM
Nishio Sensei was an accomplished/gifted swordsman before he developed Aiki Toho iaido. Being always concerned that his teachings be budo he made sure what he taught would work so I'm suggesting that Nishio Aiki Toho Iai can be used effectively 'as a sword.'
How does one test it? On tatami wara of course!
Yes, one can 'cut' with Aiki Toho effectively though I don't know how common battoh is in the style.
Tom Huffman 4° Nishio Aikido/Aiki Toho iaido was a direct student of Nishio Sensei in Japan for six years.

Michael Russ has written an excellent book on this subject. More info here (http://bibliography.aikidojournal.com/270-aikido-toho-iai/).

Carsten Möllering
12-20-2014, 06:04 AM
@ Keith McInnis: I was not talking about Aikiod Toho Iai.

@ Clark: Yes, the book of Michael Russ indeed is excellent in regard of Aikido Toho Iai.
But it does not cover the use of the sword in the tai jutsu I was refering to.

@ Adam: Thank you! I only knew the this use of the sword in tai jutsu from Nishio aikidō. I had never seen that in another way of aikidō.

Adam Huss
12-20-2014, 12:19 PM
Carsten,

Glad you enjoyed the video. There are many things we do both sword and open hand. We even practice rolling with weapons to help train balance and awareness. I posted a second link but the website must have kicked me off when I was editing my post or not let the post go through for some reason. In our sword class, as well as aikido, we practice defense from someone trying to disarm us.

All in we somewhere around 216 weapon set movements. Most of that is kumibuki (jo v jo; jo v sword; sword v sword; knife v knife; knife v jo, knife v sword) and solo kata form (I think seven jo, five knife, three sword kata) not including renshu/renzoku solo forms (we have continuation drills where you are practicing various hang changes, positions, and strikes, etc...while technically you could call them kata we don't include those in our kata list, we just consider them drills).

crbateman
12-21-2014, 05:47 AM
@ Clark: Yes, the book of Michael Russ indeed is excellent in regard of Aikido Toho Iai. But it does not cover the use of the sword in the tai jutsu I was refering to.
Agreed. But whether a book covers everything only matters if you're only gonna read one book... ;)

Carsten Möllering
12-21-2014, 06:09 AM
I just tried to relate to OP's question.

Because when I bought this book years ago I expected to find the mentioned "tai jutsu sword forms" of NIshio sensei in it.

john2054
05-30-2015, 12:01 PM
I've done some swords too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_BT7lScNqo

Cliff Judge
05-31-2015, 04:37 PM
I've done some swords too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_BT7lScNqo

Hi John,

Looks good! Please be careful. The best training is safe training.

Thanks,
Cliff Judge

sakumeikan
05-31-2015, 05:25 PM
I've done some swords too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_BT7lScNqo

Dear John,
I maybe wrong but I think your pulling our legs. Your sword cuts are to put it mildly are rubbish.Still the video did raise a chortle. I present you with the Worse Swordsman of the Decade Trophy.Cheers, Joe.

nikyu62
06-01-2015, 09:48 AM
John is working with some limitations, please be kind.

john2054
06-01-2015, 11:38 AM
Thanks Steven. This is a real sword, and i have done Bokken in my old club over a year ago. I have also been shown these eight cuts from another blackbelt, however i have never done iaedo, except for watching dvds, and never done any kendo at all. I do however, sometimes take my bokken out on to the park, to practise these cuts. And isn't the secret to most aikido grips (Nishio) and cuts, the sword? Who knows! namaste john

Cliff Judge
06-01-2015, 12:40 PM
Hi John

In your video, I am curious what you placed the camera on, as the point of view is a bit shaky.

I also wonder what that sound is. Did you record in slow motion or something?

Thanks,
Cliff Judge

john2054
06-01-2015, 12:57 PM
Hi Cliff, i placed the phone on my seat. And the breathing was my noise. it makes that sound. as to the slow motion, no i just do the cuts slowly, because i am not very confident with them okay. thanks. i will do another video at some point, with my new sword, when i think that i and the world are ready for it.

John

john2054
06-01-2015, 03:50 PM
Also Joe this isn't a Bokken i am holding you know? metal kantana are actually something like twice as heavy!

Riai Maori
06-04-2015, 04:21 PM
Also Joe this isn't a Bokken i am holding you know? metal kantana are actually something like twice as heavy!

Joe is a kind hearted Shihan who has lots of fun with us beginners. He has told people on this forum to take up knitting, which made me laugh or as Joe would say Chortle.:)

john2054
06-04-2015, 04:58 PM
I guess so. It may supposed to be acrimonious, but her did award me a trophy after all! lol ;)

Riai Maori
06-04-2015, 05:29 PM
I guess so. It may supposed to be acrimonious, but her did award me a trophy after all! lol ;)

Yes he did, and I would rather have your trophy than a set of knitting needles.:D

sakumeikan
06-05-2015, 10:00 AM
Joe is a kind hearted Shihan who has lots of fun with us beginners. He has told people on this forum to take up knitting, which made me laugh or as Joe would say Chortle.:)

Hi Richard,
Thank God somebody has realised I like a laugh.I do not laugh at beginners .I prefer laughing with them and everyone.Sometimes I think we as aikidoka take the art and ourselves too seriously.Come on,its just a bit of fun. Dressing up in fancy togs, calling myself a Oriental title that means little in the real world.Compared to WayNe Rooney in sport I am the invisible man.Joe Curran Cellophane Man would be a better title.Wont my detractors [in their hundreds ] not pick up on this nickname?See I even make fun of myself.Who cares?? Life is too short .Lets just have a good time and try to be kind , considerate to each.Cheers, Joe

lbb
06-05-2015, 01:21 PM
Punch up, not down. Words to live by.

sakumeikan
06-05-2015, 04:08 PM
I guess so. It may supposed to be acrimonious, but her did award me a trophy after all! lol ;)
Dear John,
First thing first.Do not take me seriously.Next thing I like a guy who trys his best to do whatever he is doing be it body .weapons.Its not about be good or bad .What it is all about is how sincerely you apply
yourself and how you climb your own personal mountain.Keep doing what ou do, look for guys who are good role models and in time you will be fine.So John, a give you a fresh Trophy , one I call my Best Man Tryer of the Year Award. Ps get yourself a less heavy sword , you will improve your performance quicker /easier.Cheers, Joe.

john2054
06-24-2015, 02:34 PM
Hi everyone, Joe... I have been invited to sit and watch another class, with the possibility of joining in the future, subject to the medical/psychiatric clearance. This is good news huh? John (Ninja/samurai/dad)

Janet Rosen
06-24-2015, 04:45 PM
Hi everyone, Joe... I have been invited to sit and watch another class, with the possibility of joining in the future, subject to the medical/psychiatric clearance. This is good news huh? John (Ninja/samurai/dad)

VERY good news, John. Holding good thoughts :)

Cliff Judge
06-26-2015, 11:17 AM
Hi everyone, Joe... I have been invited to sit and watch another class, with the possibility of joining in the future, subject to the medical/psychiatric clearance. This is good news huh? John (Ninja/samurai/dad)

Hi Joe,

This is good news! I think as long as you take it as your duty as a warrior to follow your doctor's plan of therapy, as well as regular, committed practice on the mat, things can only get better for you. I personally can't really understand the challenges you are facing but if you believe in yourself and trust your doctors you can overcome any obstacle in your way.