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Mihaly Dobroka
11-05-2014, 01:22 AM
Here is a video on Kotegaeshi with many variations and reversal techniques:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baxzn131dFg&list=UUksUlSPmWMWgkqAobsoXRkQ

What are your thoughts on this video?

Mihaly

phitruong
11-05-2014, 08:15 AM
after practicing aikido all these years, i only know one. take uke balance, keep uke from smacking me 20 ways to sunday, and drop uke where i want. i liked the KISS principle.

Mary Eastland
11-05-2014, 08:50 AM
I liked the big tenkens.

Cliff Judge
11-05-2014, 09:25 AM
People who can move like that on their knees make me jealous.

In general the movement is very nice. The first four or so times he does the technique in the video, he leaves uke behind when he turns for the tenkan, though. That isn't just martially bad, that actually breaks the nice flowing movement he has.

Alec Corper
11-05-2014, 03:31 PM
Very pretty and elegant gymnastics with very little martial veracity.

lbb
11-05-2014, 04:29 PM
Nage has a lot of movement - I think that's where he's getting his kuzushi (not even goin' there whether he has kuzushi for real or his ukes are just playin'). But, wow, he brings the hand up awfully high before applying the kotegaeshi. I've always been told that's a big no-no because it gives uke the opportunity to get their balance back. What would stop that from happening in this case? The movement?

MRoh
11-06-2014, 05:28 AM
The movement ist not so bad, but it's a rythmical dance with a little bit overdone attitude, not budo. The rhythm is very uniformly. Move - break, move- break.
Very easy for uke to find his balance, and to stop at every point of movement he wishes.

Demetrio Cereijo
11-06-2014, 07:25 AM
What are your thoughts on this video?
Martial homeopathy.

sorokod
11-06-2014, 09:11 AM
Martial homeopathy.

and as effective as the non martial variety http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z2WRcxXHDo

Mary Eastland
11-06-2014, 10:28 AM
It is a demonstration video. I really enjoyed it. I seldom watched whole videos. You cannot judge martial validity by a demonstration video.

Walter Martindale
11-06-2014, 10:44 AM
Yes, it's a demonstration video. I'm rusty and it took a few moments to see what I'd consider a problem.

Nice, big, flowing movements.

However...

The late Kawahara Yukio shihan used to get rather crusty if we let our hand get behind us when we were doing our tenkan movement as part of a kotegaeshi. In the video, nage's back is frequently turned on uke (and I'm not referring to the spinning around backwards variants) while Nage is doing tenkan. The arm with which he is connected to uke while doing tenkan is behind him. He looks around in the direction he's moving (which we were trained to do) but he lets his hand (and uke) get behind the look... The arm is bent, and he's pulling with his shoulder (or seems to be) and not with an arm connected to his "core".

Kawahara, IIRC, used to insist that all of our 'work' was done in front of us - if we were doing tenkan for anything, really, our hands stayed in front of us... I THINK that's what just about all my sensei have been pretty adamant about, too - if you turn your back on uke, he/she had better be dealing with an atemi as you pass through or have enough kuzushi on so that he/she can't harm you while your back's turned, and you want as much as possible to get back to having uke in the "front" workspace.

That's not as clear as I want to be but I have to get ready for work....

Carsten Möllering
11-06-2014, 10:53 AM
The arm with which he is connected to uke while doing tenkan is behind him. He looks around in the direction he's moving (which we were trained to do) but he lets his hand (and uke) get behind the look.This is the typical way to do kote gaeshi for a whole lot of teachers. Christian Tissier shihan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzWJywjoumQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=83) being one of them. I also learned to do it that way.

sorokod
11-06-2014, 11:35 AM
It is a demonstration video. I really enjoyed it. I seldom watched whole videos. You cannot judge martial validity by a demonstration video.

You can judge martial validity of a demonstration (video).

Demetrio Cereijo
11-06-2014, 11:51 AM
You cannot judge martial validity by a demonstration video.

Yes I can.

Cliff Judge
11-06-2014, 02:42 PM
I'm curious to see a video of kotegaeshi that you guys think is more manly and effective. Got any links?

Cliff Judge
11-06-2014, 02:51 PM
It is a demonstration video. I really enjoyed it. I seldom watched whole videos. You cannot judge martial validity by a demonstration video.

What you CAN do, is you can observe that uke is not really attacking nage with intent to kill them. And nage is not responding in a manner that would have been wise or effective if uke had attacked with the intent to kill.

Pretty much every second of footage I have seen of Osensei or any of his students is lacking in these departments too!

But what you are judging is actually the people doing the demonstrations, and their teachers, and the combination of the way training is done at their dojo and the expectations of their instructors that led to whatever it is you don't like in the video.

Which is a thing that people do. Maybe we ought to view footage of the old greats from the same angle, when we form our ideas of what Aikido should and should not be. :)

Demetrio Cereijo
11-06-2014, 03:45 PM
I'm curious to see a video of kotegaeshi that you guys think is more manly and effective. Got any links?

http://youtu.be/Gf6F1Wa8bsc?t=16s
I've pulled this version succesfully in bjj sparring... so it is effective and, me being (let me check.... yes) a man, manly.

However I like this manliness lacking version even more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oqfNno0pJs

Gerardo Torres
11-06-2014, 03:52 PM
This is the typical way to do kote gaeshi for a whole lot of teachers. Christian Tissier shihan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzWJywjoumQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=83) being one of them. I also learned to do it that way.
Yep, seen it a lot too. And it's still a very bad idea no matter who does it. Once you let your elbows and arms go past the body wall you're prone to being exploited and it would be hard to keep connection and recover from it. And as somebody who likes to relate sword to aikido like Tissier, what kind of sword movement justifies such arm movement?

Cliff Judge
11-06-2014, 04:08 PM
http://youtu.be/Gf6F1Wa8bsc?t=16s
I've pulled this version succesfully in bjj sparring... so it is effective and, me being (let me check.... yes) a man, manly.

Sure...so next time I am attacked on the street by a guy in tights who doesn't want to come close to me....I'll hold his hand and return his wrist. :D

Actually that was pretty cool - red trunks took the fall the way he wanted, so that he had enough slack to get back before the pin came on. If only there were some way to train that placed an emphasis on taking ukemi in a relaxed and controlled manner...


However I like this manliness lacking version even more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oqfNno0pJs

Hendricks Sensei would have been toast if her uke had a knife in the other hand. Which of course her uke didn't because they were both cooperating to allow some Aikido to happen on the mat.

There is an element of control over uke in both of those clips that is something I see in at least some of the kotegaeshis in the original post's video.

Cliff Judge
11-06-2014, 04:09 PM
Yep, seen it a lot too. And it's still a very bad idea no matter who does it. Once you let your elbows and arms go past the body wall you're prone to being exploited and it would be hard to keep connection and recover from it. And as somebody who likes to relate sword to aikido like Tissier, what kind of sword movement justifies such arm movement?

It isn't just that it creates an opening, it really LOOKS bad, even if you are trying to do a nice flowy demo.

Demetrio Cereijo
11-06-2014, 04:43 PM
Sure...so next time I am attacked on the street by a guy in tights who doesn't want to come close to me....I'll hold his hand and return his wrist. :D
So he learns to not go around attacking people while poorly dressed.

If only there were some way to train that placed an emphasis on taking ukemi in a relaxed and controlled manner...
May be there is.

Hendricks Sensei would have been toast if her uke had a knife in the other hand. Which of course her uke didn't because they were both cooperating to allow some Aikido to happen on the mat.
Well, I said I liked it more, not that I considered it manly and/or effective.

There is an element of control over uke in both of those clips that is something I see in at least some of the kotegaeshis in the original post's video.
Sure, but at different levels of dilution.

BTW, regarding the issue of leaving the hand back... check 'Budo: Teachings of the Founder of Aikido' by O Sensei.

Rupert Atkinson
11-06-2014, 10:11 PM
I like the video. But it is also why I wandered off to study Judo, Jujutsu and Kung-fu. But I still do Aikido as I look at it for its merits.

Rupert Atkinson
11-06-2014, 10:23 PM
... But, wow, he brings the hand up awfully high before applying the kotegaeshi. I've always been told that's a big no-no because it gives uke the opportunity to get their balance back.

While the smaller circles are more effective, I do like the big cirlces. Personally, I want to be able to use both the big and the small circles in normal Aikido practice. Ikkyo can be big or small circle, for example, and most people do it big. Kote-gaeshi can likewise be big or small, and most people do it small. Study what you can't do until you can do it - then you can freely have the choice. I think we move from big to small constantly throughout most techniques - and if you are flexible you can vary it as you like. It's just yin-yang etc.

Some examples:
Start big finish big
Start big finish small
Start small finish big
Start small finish small
Start big - then change small - finish big
Start small - then change big - then finish small
And so on ... you can do it with everything ...

Once you have these ideas in your head the variations are endless. Not all are practical - the discerning eye willl steer you through it.

Rupert Atkinson
11-06-2014, 10:37 PM
The big taisabaki entry on kote-gaeshi once saved me. I was walking behind a car (on my left side) on a side street at some traffic lights. Suddenly the reversing lights came on and I saw them - just as a gap in the traffic appeared. I was right behind the car. I took one right-foot step forward and slapped my right hand down on the trunk and did a taisabaki just like kote-gaesi and got passed the car just as it whizzed backwards thorugh where I had been. The guy meant to pull out, but mistakenly was in reverse. Luckily, no one was behind him. After my taisabaki I continued walking on without looking back. Even our sometimes wishy-washy looking movement can be useful.

MRoh
11-07-2014, 04:12 AM
Hendricks Sensei would have been toast if her uke had a knife in the other hand. Which of course her uke didn't because they were both cooperating to allow some Aikido to happen on the mat.


Usually the knife would be in the hand on which kotegaeshi is applied...
Aside from that we do kotegashi against a knifeattack a little bit ditfferent.
The free hand is always a problem in normal kotegaeshi.

To keep the hand behind the body ist poosible if the connection between the hand and the center is strong enough, but not many people can really move uke in that way effectivly.
Normally, from a martial point of view, it's a no go.
In the case of the first video and also in Tissiers movement, there is no control on uke in the moment when he turns his back to uke, no kuzsuhi was apllied.

phitruong
11-07-2014, 06:47 AM
Yep, seen it a lot too. And it's still a very bad idea no matter who does it. Once you let your elbows and arms go past the body wall you're prone to being exploited and it would be hard to keep connection and recover from it. And as somebody who likes to relate sword to aikido like Tissier, what kind of sword movement justifies such arm movement?

Yep. it's the running-around-uke approach. generally, aikido folks fall into two camps: running-around-uke or make-uke-do-the-running-around. my personal preference is make-uke-do-the-running-around. i figure that i will get older and my muscle will decay which makes running around uke kinda hard. so i trained for old age at the start so that i don't have to retrain myself later. Saotome sensei often used the log bridge example. tenkan on log bridge and you go into the ditch. you want the other bugger doing the tenkan. and since if the other bugger doing the tenkan, your arms should be right in front of you the whole time.

phitruong
11-07-2014, 07:04 AM
I'm curious to see a video of kotegaeshi that you guys think is more manly and effective. Got any links?

i kinda like the unmanly stuffs. unwomanly too for that matter. my favorite is emu-ly. how emu does kotegaeshi is still a mystery. but emuly just rolls right off the tongue

emuly
emuly
emuly

Walter Martindale
11-07-2014, 07:27 AM
This is the typical way to do kote gaeshi for a whole lot of teachers. Christian Tissier shihan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzWJywjoumQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=83) being one of them. I also learned to do it that way.

That's fine. I was remarking on how I was trained and one of the shihan from whom that came. Other relatively high ranked folks who have been rather firm in their exhortations to keep the workspace in front have been Takase (New Zealand, 7th dan), Williamson (New Zealand, 6th dan), and the Aikikai Hombu shihan who have visited both Canada and NZ.

As well... the difference in how it feels when my arm is behind me vs. when in front - one feels weak and "oh gosh I'm glad I'm strong enough to pull this guy around but it feels weak" vs "gotcha, you're mine"...

W

Mary Eastland
11-07-2014, 07:53 AM
We worked on the wide open tenkan in class last night. I think the exaggerated tenken in training allows for possibilities. And an added benefit is that it feels beautiful.

Alex Megann
11-07-2014, 09:56 AM
This is my teacher (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuwJOSzKdYU&app=desktop) in a demonstration back in the 1980s.

At just after the 1:00 mark he does suwariwaza kotegaeshi. The overall movement is similar to that in the original clip, but in my opinion the movement is much more concise, with no "slack" in the contact with the partner.

Alex

Janet Rosen
11-07-2014, 04:36 PM
i kinda like the unmanly stuffs. unwomanly too for that matter. my favorite is emu-ly. how emu does kotegaeshi is still a mystery. but emuly just rolls right off the tongue

emuly
emuly
emuly

Well, emulation is the sincerest form of flattery and I like my ukes flattery on their backs :)

Personally when training in Aikido (figure I better specify...) I do not care how good a movement feels; if it gives my partner an opening, I prefer a smaller movement that keeps me in better connection.

Adam Huss
11-07-2014, 05:18 PM
I'm not sure I saw kotegaeshi actually being applied. If the excuse is its a demo, what was it demonstrating?

Peter Goldsbury
11-07-2014, 05:42 PM
This is my teacher (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuwJOSzKdYU&app=desktop) in a demonstration back in the 1980s.

At just after the 1:00 mark he does suwariwaza kotegaeshi. The overall movement is similar to that in the original clip, but in my opinion the movement is much more concise, with no "slack" in the contact with the partner.

Alex

Hello Alex,

Ahh, this takes me back to an earlier period, before I came here. There is some Yamaguchi influence in the YouTube demo.

The OP shows a demonstration at Hirosaki University, in Aomori Prefecture, Japan. It is not clear whether it was specially staged to show the variations in kotegaeshi, or was part of a larger demonstration. I have had nearly 30 years experience of Japanese university aikido and can state with some confidence that the major aim of university aikido is to do learn how to do athletic, flowing ukemi. Very little attention is paid to the effectiveness of the waza themselves and if individual students try to make the waza effective -- to the detriment of the flowing ukemi, they tend to get hammered down. It is simply assumed that if the waza follows the correct form, then it must be effective and it is uke's task to show the correct form. As a famous aikidoka once said, 'it's a lot like dancing', but in predetermined steps with a partner

Adam Huss
11-07-2014, 09:24 PM
Hello Alex,

Ahh, this takes me back to an earlier period, before I came here. There is some Yamaguchi influence in the YouTube demo.

The OP shows a demonstration at Hirosaki University, in Aomori Prefecture, Japan. It is not clear whether it was specially staged to show the variations in kotegaeshi, or was part of a larger demonstration. I have had nearly 30 years experience of Japanese university aikido and can state with some confidence that the major aim of university aikido is to do learn how to do athletic, flowing ukemi. Very little attention is paid to the effectiveness of the waza themselves and if individual students try to make the waza effective -- to the detriment of the flowing ukemi, they tend to get hammered down. It is simply assumed that if the waza follows the correct form, then it must be effective and it is uke's task to show the correct form. As a famous aikidoka once said, 'it's a lot like dancing', but in predetermined steps with a partner
Interesting. Does PE judo follow similar tendencies?

lifestylemanoz
11-07-2014, 11:16 PM
Hi Mihaly,

Looks like a lot of fun and great posturing and follow through on techniques. A+ from me.

Something to aspire to in your Aiki training.

Reposted to my blog
http://aikidohombu.com/fun-variations-kotegaeshi/

As a mma aikidoka, I appreciate incorporating this style of practice into my training. It's all about movement...

Alex Megann
11-08-2014, 03:51 AM
Hello Alex,

Ahh, this takes me back to an earlier period, before I came here. There is some Yamaguchi influence in the YouTube demo.

The OP shows a demonstration at Hirosaki University, in Aomori Prefecture, Japan. It is not clear whether it was specially staged to show the variations in kotegaeshi, or was part of a larger demonstration. I have had nearly 30 years experience of Japanese university aikido and can state with some confidence that the major aim of university aikido is to do learn how to do athletic, flowing ukemi. Very little attention is paid to the effectiveness of the waza themselves and if individual students try to make the waza effective -- to the detriment of the flowing ukemi, they tend to get hammered down. It is simply assumed that if the waza follows the correct form, then it must be effective and it is uke's task to show the correct form. As a famous aikidoka once said, 'it's a lot like dancing', but in predetermined steps with a partner

Hi Peter,

That is a very interesting and useful observation about Japanese University aikido. We have had the occasional Japanese student pass through our dojo (we have a lady shodan practising with us now), and what you say explains a lot!

Alex

Keith Larman
11-08-2014, 11:22 AM
Martial homeopathy.

I think I've probably butted heads with Demetrio a few times, but... gotta admit... That made me laugh out loud.

I realize it's also why it's damned near impossible to have a conversation about aikido and effectiveness. I have zero problem saying that what I see is probably "proper" aikido. The reason for that, of course, is that I think "proper aikido" is a diverse, complicated beast nowadays. Just because some version or another isn't my cup of tea, doesn't make it not Aikido.

Interestingly enough I told a visiting student recently that I view aikido much like pizza. Lots of it, lots of styles, most people are happy enough with what they get or have access to, but having tried a whole lot of different types there's a whole lot out there that I would never eat... I have no problem saying it's all pizza and I have no problem understanding that each type has its cheer leaders. But me, well, I'm particular, and I don't want to waste my discretionary calorie intake on some types even if it has its own fan base. It doesn't mean I look down my nose at someone enjoying their slice from Pizza Hut... But I digress...

Sorry, just felt that I should give proper credit... :) "Martial Homeopathy" :)

Malicat
11-08-2014, 11:33 AM
I'm curious to see a video of kotegaeshi that you guys think is more manly and effective. Got any links?

Well, this is how we do it, at least. I'm not one to judge manly, but Hawley Shihan has done it to me, and I'll definitely vouch for effective. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2bnC2k7f14&feature=youtu.be

--Ashley

JP3
11-08-2014, 01:24 PM
Nage has a lot of movement - I think that's where he's getting his kuzushi (not even goin' there whether he has kuzushi for real or his ukes are just playin'). But, wow, he brings the hand up awfully high before applying the kotegaeshi. I've always been told that's a big no-no because it gives uke the opportunity to get their balance back. What would stop that from happening in this case? The movement?

Nope, that movement wouldn't "keep" the attacker off-balance, and you're exactly right IMO, raising the hand gives uke back their balance.

I agree, it's a nifty-looking demo of some neat-o kotegaeshi variations applied on a willing and cooperative uke. A good way to show different directions of technique, but the video is a bit too cooperative and uke a bit too willing to show what'd actually be expressed like.

But, to be fair, it is very hard to show "actual" technique in a pretty way, unless you are crazy, mad-scientist, Buddha O-sensei kind of good (there are some high level folks out there like that right now). I can drop a person where I want with kotegaeshi as Phi said above, but it is very seldom pretty. They are almost mutually-exclusive.

Rupert Atkinson
11-08-2014, 07:38 PM
To me - the whole purpose of Aikido is to develop aiki. If the guy doing the demo thinks he is some bad-ass martial artist defending himself - then, nope. If he is trying to develop harmony and working on taking uke's balance - then ok. Is he adding a mix of 'martial' to it? Let each person judge. Is he there yet? Are we there yet? Nope. But the thing is - you can't learn aiki with crunch style self-defence aikido. There is demo Aikido, self-defence Aikido, grading Aikido, and Aikido to learn aiki. As long as you mix it all up and know what you are doing and why, it doesn't really matter. There will always be someone to criticise but at the end of the day all we can do is just concentrate on sorting out our own stuff. The guy in the demo is on the right track and if he keeps at it will only get better.

Alec Corper
11-09-2014, 02:48 AM
;) To me - the whole purpose of Aikido is to develop aiki. If the guy doing the demo thinks he is some bad-ass martial artist defending himself - then, nope. If he is trying to develop harmony and working on taking uke's balance - then ok. Is he adding a mix of 'martial' to it? Let each person judge. Is he there yet? Are we there yet? Nope. But the thing is - you can't learn aiki with crunch style self-defence aikido. There is demo Aikido, self-defence Aikido, grading Aikido, and Aikido to learn aiki. As long as you mix it all up and know what you are doing and why, it doesn't really matter. There will always be someone to criticise but at the end of the day all we can do is just concentrate on sorting out our own stuff. The guy in the demo is on the right track and if he keeps at it will only get better.

+1

Bernd Lehnen
11-09-2014, 09:17 AM
Defence against a knife is always highly questionable.

Usually the knife would be in the hand on which kotegaeshi is applied...
Aside from that we do kotegashi against a knifeattack a little bit ditfferent.
The free hand is always a problem in normal kotegaeshi.

To keep the hand behind the body ist poosible if the connection between the hand and the center is strong enough, but not many people can really move uke in that way effectivly.
Normally, from a martial point of view, it's a no go.
In the case of the first video and also in Tissiers movement, there is no control on uke in the moment when he turns his back to uke, no kuzsuhi was apllied.

True, especially when the attacker immediately attacks with the saya while his other (free) hand is stabbing you with the tanto.

Mary Malmros wrote: 
Nage has a lot of movement - I think that's where he's getting his kuzushi (not even goin' there whether he has kuzushi for real or his ukes are just playin'). But, wow, he brings the hand up awfully high before applying the kotegaeshi. I've always been told that's a big no-no because it gives uke the opportunity to get their balance back. What would stop that from happening in this case? The movement?

I 've been taught so, too. But, evidently, even O-Sensei in his 1953 movie didn't take this all too literally, when throwing Tohei ( please watch 2.21 - 2.22). He didn't simply restrict himself to martial rule. So you might conclude, he didn't have (knife-) defense or anything martial predominantly in mind.
What, then, would have been his priority? Internal training, they say.
Time to watch and ponder…

植芝 盛平
http://植芝 盛平
Best,
Bernd

Michael Douglas
11-09-2014, 01:26 PM
This is my teacher (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuwJOSzKdYU&app=desktop) in a demonstration back in the 1980s.

After a seminar (I guess) with Kanetsuka in Darlington around 1985 my eyes were opened to what Aikido represented to everyone else outside our little sensible club.
Our little club hadn't really experienced people falling down for nothing (well, there was this one fat guy in a hakama : first time we ever saw one!) , notouch nonsense, and holding on for no reason ... I now understand Kanetsuka was at the more realistic end of the spectrum but at the time it was quite shocking and utterly utterly disppointing.

Robert Cowham
11-10-2014, 06:31 PM
This is the typical way to do kote gaeshi for a whole lot of teachers. Christian Tissier shihan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzWJywjoumQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=83) being one of them. I also learned to do it that way.

I've always been curious as to the seemingly exaggerated style of Tissier sensei's kote gaishi. I'm interested to understand what the thinking is behind it.

Alex Megann
11-11-2014, 02:33 AM
After a seminar (I guess) with Kanetsuka in Darlington around 1985 my eyes were opened to what Aikido represented to everyone else outside our little sensible club.
Our little club hadn't really experienced people falling down for nothing (well, there was this one fat guy in a hakama : first time we ever saw one!) , notouch nonsense, and holding on for no reason ... I now understand Kanetsuka was at the more realistic end of the spectrum but at the time it was quite shocking and utterly utterly disppointing.

Michael,

I'm not quite sure what your post means! When you say "people falling down for nothing" and "notouch nonsense", are you saying that Kanetsuka was showing this kind of technique? That is the complete opposite of my experience with him.

Alex

Rupert Atkinson
11-11-2014, 02:41 AM
Michael,

I'm not quite sure what your post means! When you say "people falling down for nothing" and "notouch nonsense", are you saying that Kanetsuka was showing this kind of technique? That is the complete opposite of my experience with him.

Alex

I second that :-)

Carsten Möllering
11-12-2014, 06:51 AM
Some video showing the kote gaeshi of Christian Tissier more in detail:

Germany 2014 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYGqcXUTrg4&feature=player_detailpage#t=10)
Budapest 2013 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PQv5aR_hsg&feature=player_detailpage#t=419)
Vienna 2012 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzWJywjoumQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=78)
Belgium 2011 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3d1xC6YYIA&feature=player_detailpage#t=233)

Two videos of Endō Seishiro, showing how to use the arms:

How to get the slack out of the arm that connects tori and uke. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbxWbehlB98&feature=player_detailpage#t=262)
How to use the free arm. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGPTDOl7Vz4&feature=player_detailpage#t=76)

Once you let your elbows and arms go past the body wall you're prone to being exploited and it would be hard to keep connection and recover from it.Sounds familiar. ;)
Thing is that we do a lot of exercises with arms/ellbows behind the body wall. We have to because in ushiro waza this is simply the setting to work with. Please refer to the first video of Endō sensei above to see some ot what we do.

Hard to describe the movement and feeling of this way of kote gaeshi. I'll try ...
Imagine spiralling, with both feet parallel.
Now imagine a scneria where the forwarding arm is holding uke's wrist. And while this point of contact is not moved (because: "Never move the point of contact ...") you let your the spiralling flow through body, so instead of forwarding the hand, your body axes starts to turn. You are looking away from uke, but there is as strong connection because you did not simply let your arm behind and loose, but you created whole body movement, with the point where your hand grabs ukes wrist as fixpoint in space.
It should create kuzusih in uke, so is not free to pushorpull or go away.

It's much more complex ... but maybe you get a glimpse? It's not that you "turn away" and "leave behind", but you "create" that situation and it is really charged with energy.
Now you pivot by stepping back with your front foot while closing from ming men. This connects to the kuzushi allready existing and uke will have to move, being led by your closing movement.

When he "meets" you he will be thrown not actually by the joint lock of kote gaeshi, but your hands only transfer kind of mountain echo ... . This is much more obvious when whatching Endō senseis kote gaeshi. (with which I'm much more familiar now ... )

And as somebody who likes to relate sword to aikido like Tissier, what kind of sword movement justifies such arm movement?I don't know how Christian links this to his sword work. I myself see some parallels to waki kamae and teachniques developing from that stance.

kfa4303
11-12-2014, 08:01 AM
Great ukemi, but very bad martial form :/ This is a Martial (military) art after all.

In virtually every example Uke had ample opportunity to strike Nage as they came about following the tenkan. Sadly, they failed to do so, thus allowing Nage to continue making the same error over and over again, thereby losing the entire intent of the technique. It's a classic and all too common error that people make with Kotegaeshi. They do a great job of securing the wrist, performing tenkan only to spin Uke around right into their own face and/or path of motion, which of course defeats the entire point of the technique. To eliminate this dangerous oversight, Uke's wrist must be directed down and away from their center not merely around it such that they can pirouette and punch Nage in the nose as they should have in this instance.

Going forward each of the Uke should be encouraged to attempt to strike sensei upon coming around. It will keep them focused and grounded on their own attack, as well as giving Nage a real/valid/realistic scenario to attempt to deal with. Anything short of that is just dancing, which is what we saw by the end of this clip; bad ballroom dancing.

While it's neccessary to know a few variations, generally speaking, less is more ;) Avoid the strike, secure the wrist, pin. No more, no less.

Aside from the lack of martial awareness, their overall movements' were very smooth and fluid, if not entirely effective.

sorokod
11-12-2014, 08:57 AM
According to Saito Morihiro sensei:

Basic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-RsQgCjFTE

In sword context, time mark 5:49
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1XRis6lcjM

In relation to sword taking, time mark: 5:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geIIkMkG4Jw

Demetrio Cereijo
11-12-2014, 09:30 AM
I think I've probably butted heads with Demetrio a few times, but... gotta admit... That made me laugh out loud.

Thanks.

Erick Mead
11-12-2014, 01:52 PM
What are your thoughts on this video?
Mihaly Well..... ?

- His upper body structure keeps collapsing and then having to re-extend (i.e. -- he is not internally connected).
- He lets his limbs fall behind the turn of body (i.e. - again, his action is not whole-body, not unified), but without creating the appropriate power in that way (i.e. -- even if he were trying to create a tension connection (which is fine, as with the linked Endo example), he isn't doing that).
- He CANNOT be keeping good connection to uke and appears to be losing kuzushi (if he ever had it) in the turns as well, and having to reestablish it (if he ever does)
- His lower body is WAAAY too broad in support, the unduly wide stance precludes structrual change in larger angular rotation without shifting support, forcing movement to create power that is unnecessary in a more natural stance, where structural change (tai no henko principle) creates power around a dynamically stable base (see Saito video below).
- He is substituting movement for connection to his opponent's structure -- even in suwari-waza
- I don't think I saw one properly structured attack

This does not favorably compare to the excellent example linked showing Endo Seishiro shihan, whose stance is ordinary, connection natural, and movement minimal and no more than necessary. Saito, of course, is to similar effect.

While Tissier's performance might seem nominally similar to the OP video -- it isn't. He engages (1:28-1:32) uke's arm in a flexed limb posture but then in the turn is constantly extending his arm with uke attached leading her into a progressive kuzushi outward from her base of support. Tissier's action is mechanically continuous and like a swimming stroke or a backhanded do cut. This is not the case with the OP video, whose arms are doing a lot of reciprocating (push-pulling) -- destroying the angular moment developed by the tai no henko of a connected body that will compromise uke's structure in connection (like Saito here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0BUP1slQ80) ).

Basically, the OP video has him just (elegantly) dragging and yanking uke around without a real kuzushi -- the pretty ukemi notwithstanding. The OP video has no similar cutting action involved in gaining and magnifying kuzushi as seen in Tissier, and I struggle to identify any example of involuntary kuzushi in the OP video at all. Tissier is not really forcing kuzushi very hard either, but that does not seem to be the point he is dwelling on in his lesson, so I hardly fault it. It is plain he can and does when he wishes to.

The OP video -- not so much. It has a lot of what I call neutral movements in contact -- like holding hands and swinging arms together. It doesn't really DO anything because it is in a single plane of action.

Three planes of simultaneous rotation (or stress, equivalently) form a spiral that is progressive, and irreversible in any one plane of action without breaking stuff. Kuzushi happens. Tissier's action forms these three planes of irreversible action (around-out-dropping) for kuzushi -- and the same thing reversed (up-in-across) for the throw. The OP video keeps bending and extending his arms to follow the single and neutral plane of action (like arm-swinging), having little effect on uke, until he loads up for the throw.

Hilary
11-13-2014, 12:15 PM
One of the variations we train.
http://www.tpaikikai.org/media/around-the-dojo-/menuchi-kote-gaeshi.html

Rupert Atkinson
11-13-2014, 04:40 PM
OK - here are some old vids of mine:
Gykaku-hanmi katate-dori kote-gaeshi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7dzziu7XXo
Yokomen-uchi kote-gaeshi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ymaal9Jwvi8

cagivaplanet
11-13-2014, 09:50 PM
Well..... ?

- His upper body structure keeps collapsing and then having to re-extend (i.e. -- he is not internally connected).
- He lets his limbs fall behind the turn of body (i.e. - again, his action is not whole-body, not unified), but without creating the appropriate power in that way (i.e. -- even if he were trying to create a tension connection (which is fine, as with the linked Endo example), he isn't doing that).
- He CANNOT be keeping good connection to uke and appears to be losing kuzushi (if he ever had it) in the turns as well, and having to reestablish it (if he ever does)
- His lower body is WAAAY too broad in support, the unduly wide stance precludes structrual change in larger angular rotation without shifting support, forcing movement to create power that is unnecessary in a more natural stance, where structural change (tai no henko principle) creates power around a dynamically stable base (see Saito video below).
- He is substituting movement for connection to his opponent's structure -- even in suwari-waza
- I don't think I saw one properly structured attack

This does not favorably compare to the excellent example linked showing Endo Seishiro shihan, whose stance is ordinary, connection natural, and movement minimal and no more than necessary. Saito, of course, is to similar effect.

While Tissier's performance might seem nominally similar to the OP video -- it isn't. He engages (1:28-1:32) uke's arm in a flexed limb posture but then in the turn is constantly extending his arm with uke attached leading her into a progressive kuzushi outward from her base of support. Tissier's action is mechanically continuous and like a swimming stroke or a backhanded do cut. This is not the case with the OP video, whose arms are doing a lot of reciprocating (push-pulling) -- destroying the angular moment developed by the tai no henko of a connected body that will compromise uke's structure in connection (like Saito here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0BUP1slQ80) ).

Basically, the OP video has him just (elegantly) dragging and yanking uke around without a real kuzushi -- the pretty ukemi notwithstanding. The OP video has no similar cutting action involved in gaining and magnifying kuzushi as seen in Tissier, and I struggle to identify any example of involuntary kuzushi in the OP video at all. Tissier is not really forcing kuzushi very hard either, but that does not seem to be the point he is dwelling on in his lesson, so I hardly fault it. It is plain he can and does when he wishes to.

The OP video -- not so much. It has a lot of what I call neutral movements in contact -- like holding hands and swinging arms together. It doesn't really DO anything because it is in a single plane of action.

Three planes of simultaneous rotation (or stress, equivalently) form a spiral that is progressive, and irreversible in any one plane of action without breaking stuff. Kuzushi happens. Tissier's action forms these three planes of irreversible action (around-out-dropping) for kuzushi -- and the same thing reversed (up-in-across) for the throw. The OP video keeps bending and extending his arms to follow the single and neutral plane of action (like arm-swinging), having little effect on uke, until he loads up for the throw.

Thank you for the wonderful and precise analysis. :D