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Mihaly Dobroka
10-14-2014, 10:34 PM
This is a scene from the 51st Hirosaki University Aikido Demonstration.
Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sCBewnK1DA&list=UUksUlSPmWMWgkqAobsoXRkQ&index=1

What are your thoughts on this video?

Mihaly

Cliff Judge
10-14-2014, 11:58 PM
What is Kakari Geiko?

The empty hand was decent. I loved the couole of seconds of fast and fluid suwari waza. The weapons were terrible, in particular the sword stuff was offensive.

NagaBaba
10-15-2014, 12:14 PM
There are various concepts how aikido practice should be done. One of them is proposing an approach where attacker is supposed to harmonize with technique of nage, and it is uke responsibility to make sure the technique looks beautiful.

I believe it is a case in this video. So yes, empty hands techniques look nice, but they don’t have any value from martial point of view. The same can be said about weapons practice.

I’d call this practice healthy gymnastic.

Cliff Judge
10-15-2014, 12:38 PM
There are various concepts how aikido practice should be done. One of them is proposing an approach where attacker is supposed to harmonize with technique of nage, and it is uke responsibility to make sure the technique looks beautiful.

I believe it is a case in this video. So yes, empty hands techniques look nice, but they don’t have any value from martial point of view. The same can be said about weapons practice.

I’d call this practice healthy gymnastic.

This is clearly a demonstration, not practice.

Dan Richards
10-15-2014, 01:28 PM
I think there's some really cool stuff in there. I like your exploration and where you're going with this. Some of it still looks a little raw and unrefined, but I'm sure with more time and practice things will smooth out nicely. Very cool direction you're going, and you definitely are already developing your own style.

Some of the throws look a little strange on your part. Especially after uke is released. You seem to make some wild movements and lose your body alignment. Some of the releases in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZML4FED67s&list=UUksUlSPmWMWgkqAobsoXRkQ) look like you're dismissing a dirty uke and casting him like a worthless minion back to the squalor from whence he came. Is this something from a school of thought or approach you're taking?

Adam Huss
10-15-2014, 01:34 PM
Kakari geiko is like "round robin" style training, like group training.

Keith Larman
10-15-2014, 02:03 PM
Tough crowd here... :)

Honestly, it looked like formalized testing/demonstration. Choreographed and well practiced to be sure, but still lovely to watch and some very fluid, balanced movement. The issue of strict "martial effectiveness" is another issue entirely and I'm not sure how you could evaluate them on that metric given the video. So while I get where Mr. Janczuk is coming from, I'm not sure I'd go so far. I mean, how many train every time with the full intent to do injury and with all the "reality" of intense attack. Most of us with any experience whatsoever are fully aware of doing demos. Or of testing scenarios and kata. Strikes me more like a series of kata carried out to demonstrate proficiency across a range of movements and techniques.

Nonetheless, been posting a heck of a lot less feeling like there's not enough constructive things to participate in. Me, I enjoyed watching the video for what it appears to be, and not for what it appears not to be, if that makes any sense.

Also, those students are in good shape. I'd be hurling off the sides of the mat about 2/3rds of the way in to that sequence... Which reminds me -- I have a date with one of my Australian Shepherds to do a little trail jogging before I have to get back to work.

Thanks for the link. I enjoyed the video. I also enjoyed a few of their other videos.

mathewjgano
10-15-2014, 02:14 PM
I'm not in much of a position to offer any critical review (not sure if that's what you're looking for). I enjoyed it! Thank you for sharing!

Keith Larman
10-15-2014, 04:23 PM
I will offer one criticism, and this is one of my pet peeves. There's a section where one of the participants is "twirling" his bokken around like a baton twirling routine. "Flourishes" with the Japanese sword are rare. It reminds me of the western movie where the cowboy spins the gun on his finger before holstering it. Basically an invitation to shoot yourself or someone else accidentally. Given the reverence for the Japanese Sword in Japanese culture, seeing them twirled around usually strikes me as at best odd. That said, I've seen some more "swirly" movements before in koryu sword arts. But usually they're quite reserved in comparison to this. Then again, maybe it's just something I've not seen before and perfectly "legit".

FWIW

NagaBaba
10-15-2014, 05:21 PM
Demo should be the same as practice, other wise one or other is false. If you practice long enough you can easily see martial intent or lack of it.

James Sawers
10-15-2014, 06:15 PM
Nice video.......Randori from suwari-waza was definitely different (for me, anyway)......The bokken flourish was a little strange, but perhaps it signified something??

I don't believe demos should be the same as practice, though I guess they could be, guess it's based on what you are demonstrating.

Thanks for sharing.....

Cliff Judge
10-15-2014, 08:38 PM
Demo should be the same as practice, other wise one or other is false. If you practice long enough you can easily see martial intent or lack of it.

Aikido was built on a platform of demonstration.

Rupert Atkinson
10-15-2014, 11:15 PM
I will offer one criticism, and this is one of my pet peeves. There's a section where one of the participants is "twirling" his bokken around like a baton twirling routine. "Flourishes" with the Japanese sword are rare. It reminds me of the western movie where the cowboy spins the gun on his finger before holstering it. Basically an invitation to shoot yourself or someone else accidentally...

FWIW

Ha ha. I had exactly the same thought about the twirl ... but overall it was a very good effort anyway. If they train like that everyday - then all good. It looks like a demo - people sat watching etc. Of course, the danger is people will say - it's not real. Well, of course it's not real. It is what it is. A fixed demo. I have seen far, far worse. Some people are fast to criticise - so what is real then? I would say - real would look very messy, for starters. Like Judo, or Tomiki Aikido - lots of shuffling - halfway working stuff, and then presto, a technique appears out of nowhere. Who trains like that in Aikikai? And if you put a vid out, they'd likely say - that's not Aikido!

Adam Huss
10-16-2014, 03:17 AM
There is a reverse grip chuburi that is not uncommon in sword arts, but it's generally about 1.5 rotations of the sword, Not the extra twirl. I won't comment on techniques, but I got the impression of an overall demeanor of arrogance and posturing throughout that out me off slightly. Very showy and deliberate movements that seemed done for purely aesthetic reasons. But I'm an efficiency nerd so I'm sure I'd be criticized as well. That's what's tough about commenting on YouTube videos. I will say his hamni handachi waza his back was nice and straight. that's always good to see.

Rupert Atkinson
10-16-2014, 07:13 AM
That demo was just really meant for Aikido people- It was in a dojo. Problem is - it ends up on YouTube. Of course it will receive critique. Most of us on here have been waving swords and sticks about for a few years, right? Well, I am 100% sure I could easily chop any of you if I had a sword and you did not. 100% sure. You would not have a chance of taking it off me if I wanted to chop you. But I also know, that if the roles were reversed, I would not have the slightest chance of taking it off of you guys. Sword against sword - now that is a totally different story. weapons are fun - but it is not smart to put out vids that are so beyond reality. In Aikido the sword is a tool to aid Aikido learning. That is what it should be used for. In the vid above - the training is good Aikido training. But ordinary people - and some Aikidoka - will think it is 'supposed to be' real.

NagaBaba
10-16-2014, 10:12 AM
Ha ha. I had exactly the same thought about the twirl ... but overall it was a very good effort anyway. If they train like that everyday - then all good. It looks like a demo - people sat watching etc. Of course, the danger is people will say - it's not real. Well, of course it's not real. It is what it is. A fixed demo. I have seen far, far worse. Some people are fast to criticise - so what is real then? I would say - real would look very messy, for starters. Like Judo, or Tomiki Aikido - lots of shuffling - halfway working stuff, and then presto, a technique appears out of nowhere. Who trains like that in Aikikai? And if you put a vid out, they'd likely say - that's not Aikido!

I didn't say anything about ‘real’ – that’s you own addition. Read carefully what I wrote. You misunderstood my comment. OP asked about opinions so I gave mine. Writing things like “ oh my god it very good” gives him nothing to improve. I clearly identified a technical gap in his training, not it is up to him to close it. Or not.

NagaBaba
10-16-2014, 10:14 AM
Aikido was built on a platform of demonstration.
Could you elaborate?

Adam Huss
10-16-2014, 10:37 AM
The sword cut-rolling thing I've seen before. I can't remember the group, but I think I even saw it here. the tittle says Kakari Geiko and that sword thing is some kind of ukemi drill, or at least it's supposed to be I believe.

Video looked like a demo teat. Some groups have students preform a small demo for 4, 5, and or 6th Dan tests vice an actual exam with a specific syllabus.

phitruong
10-16-2014, 10:48 AM
Some of the releases in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZML4FED67s&list=UUksUlSPmWMWgkqAobsoXRkQ) look like you're dismissing a dirty uke and casting him like a worthless minion back to the squalor from whence he came.

i thought aikido folks, in general, are minions of hell in disguise. :)

Keith Larman
10-16-2014, 11:29 AM
There is a reverse grip chuburi that is not uncommon in sword arts, but it's generally about 1.5 rotations of the sword, Not the extra twirl. I won't comment on techniques, but I got the impression of an overall demeanor of arrogance and posturing throughout that out me off slightly. Very showy and deliberate movements that seemed done for purely aesthetic reasons. But I'm an efficiency nerd so I'm sure I'd be criticized as well. That's what's tough about commenting on YouTube videos. I will say his hamni handachi waza his back was nice and straight. that's always good to see.

Yup... On all points. Just a little uncomfortable for me, a sort of "Aaaah, a little too much here and there..." But... Some good posture and movement and interesting to watch.

On all the other stuff, I'm not smart enough to know the larger context and the training/performance goals of the individuals shown or the version of the art on display. Cheap seats are always comfy...


Quick edit: I've seen (and done) the reverse grip chiburi myself many a times. It's the extra twirl that bugs me. Superfluous movement and sword usually aren't in the same sentence. Or it might just be the voice in my head that is constantly repeating "Keep the sharp pointy end between you and the other guy. If you're done, clean the blade and put it away. If you're not done, don't flip it around." FWIW

But all that said... Things to see and learn in the video. And critiques as offered may be spot on, but also might be missing the larger context as we don't know all the training they might do. Shrug. One video of one day doing one thing. Maybe all the rest of their time they're naked, oiled up, hands wrapped in tape dipped in broken glass and fighting death matches. Shrug... Or they could be dancing with the infamous ribbon routine... :)

Cliff Judge
10-16-2014, 11:46 AM
Could you elaborate?

A guy is in front of the class doing a demo, everybody pairs off and imitates.

NagaBaba
10-16-2014, 11:56 AM
A guy is in front of the class doing a demo, everybody pairs off and imitates.
That is exactly my point – this ‘demo’ part should be the same when teaching (everybody pairs off and imitates) or when not teaching (everybody watch only without intent of actually practice).

Cliff Judge
10-16-2014, 12:10 PM
That is exactly my point -- this ‘demo' part should be the same when teaching (everybody pairs off and imitates) or when not teaching (everybody watch only without intent of actually practice).

Why though? If you taught every weeknight, and you asked for your ukes to come at you hard and real, you'd get a couple of moments of just pure, magic-looking stuff every month. And everyone would go "wow, THAT was it right there. That was the thing we are all here working hard, trying to achieve."

So then for whatever reason, you find yourself in a room with some mats in it, and they've trotted some type of academic or organizational dignitary big-wigs and sat them down in folding chairs, and your job and the job of your ukes is to show them what those magical moments look like. So while I think full-on choreography is pretty cheesy even in this type of environment, it hardly seems appropriate to have your ukes come at you and try to knock you down or out or otherwise make you look BAD. I am just saying, different rules apply. It seems straightforward to me.

NagaBaba
10-16-2014, 12:53 PM
Why though? If you taught every weeknight, and you asked for your ukes to come at you hard and real, you'd get a couple of moments of just pure, magic-looking stuff every month. And everyone would go "wow, THAT was it right there. That was the thing we are all here working hard, trying to achieve."

So then for whatever reason, you find yourself in a room with some mats in it, and they've trotted some type of academic or organizational dignitary big-wigs and sat them down in folding chairs, and your job and the job of your ukes is to show them what those magical moments look like. So while I think full-on choreography is pretty cheesy even in this type of environment, it hardly seems appropriate to have your ukes come at you and try to knock you down or out or otherwise make you look BAD. I am just saying, different rules apply. It seems straightforward to me.

My understanding is different. What may me makes look bad is a choreography. It is cheating – it is not like we practice in the dojo. If somebody ask me to demo what is my understanding of aikido I’d present normal dojo behavior, which is a true expression of understanding of aikido at my present level. I can do what I can do. Otherwise I should change the way I practice at the dojo.
It is similar when you ask someone what he would change in his life knowing he has a year to live. Truly happy person will change nothing.

Choreography came to place when some not well trained person wanted to appear as good as O sensei himself and asked his uke to help creating illusion of magic.

Rupert Atkinson
10-16-2014, 05:57 PM
My understanding is different. What may me makes look bad is a choreography. It is cheating -- it is not like we practice in the dojo. If somebody ask me to demo what is my understanding of aikido I'd present normal dojo behavior, which is a true expression of understanding of aikido at my present level. I can do what I can do. Otherwise I should change the way I practice at the dojo.
It is similar when you ask someone what he would change in his life knowing he has a year to live. Truly happy person will change nothing.

Choreography came to place when some not well trained person wanted to appear as good as O sensei himself and asked his uke to help creating illusion of magic.

Excellent.

Mihaly Dobroka
10-16-2014, 09:29 PM
The sword twirl comes from these demonstrations of Sakanashi Leo sensei:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjDLMfHmfjA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd_E13k1KWk

This twirling movement while returning the sword to its scabbard is often used in the Japanese theaters (maybe in Kabuki).
Here is an other version of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxNqnawN2bo

The fighting scenes of Japanese theater or Samurai movies is called ’Tate’. You can search for ’殺陣’ or ’Tate action’ to find more videos on YouTube.
I think it is possible to use these kind of techniques to make a demonstration more interesting and action full.

What do you think about it?

odudog
10-16-2014, 09:34 PM
Kakari geiko means hard practice. You do the same technique over and over against multiple people. You get tired while your partners stay fresh because they are taking turns.

Mihaly Dobroka
10-16-2014, 09:43 PM
This demonstration was the final of the first half of the 51th Hirosaki University Aikido Demonstration.
The first half is the demonstration of the student who are now actually training in the University Dojo so the first year student demonstrated basic techniques and Suburi, the 2nd and 3rd year students demonstrated Kumi Tachi, Kumi Jo, Ken tai Jo, weapon taking techniques, Suwari waza, Hanmi Handachi waza, Jiyu waza and finaly Kakari Geki (Multiple Atackers).
The secon half was the demonstration of the sempais and the Shihan of our University Aikido Club.

Hanmi Handachi demonstration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBVN_CwBOlo&list=UUksUlSPmWMWgkqAobsoXRkQ

OB Demonstration by Kanaya Sempai: (In some cases Sempai is called OB in Japanese - Old Boys)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhwMbMYkCyA&list=UUksUlSPmWMWgkqAobsoXRkQ

odudog
10-16-2014, 09:46 PM
They guy in the videos listed above is holding the bokken in his left hand and putting it away in the scabbard on his right side. Both are major faux paux in Japanese martial arts.

Rupert Atkinson
10-16-2014, 10:21 PM
Kakari geiko means hard practice. You do the same technique over and over against multiple people. You get tired while your partners stay fresh because they are taking turns.

Kagari-geiko refers to light give-and-take practice in Judo and Tomiki Aikido. Randori is hard practice - fighting - in Judo and Tomiki Aikido. You can't really steal the terms and alter their meaning. In Aikikai, it is all Kagari-geiko style. There is no randori - and even if you call it randori, it is not randori.

Keith Larman
10-16-2014, 10:34 PM
The sword twirl comes from these demonstrations of Sakanashi Leo sensei:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjDLMfHmfjA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd_E13k1KWk

This twirling movement while returning the sword to its scabbard is often used in the Japanese theaters (maybe in Kabuki).
Here is an other version of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxNqnawN2bo

The fighting scenes of Japanese theater or Samurai movies is called ’Tate’. You can search for ’殺陣’ or ’Tate action’ to find more videos on YouTube.
I think it is possible to use these kind of techniques to make a demonstration more interesting and action full.

What do you think about it?

Honestly? I don't consider a sword a prop. Not in this context. There are any number of things that would make a koryu sword person cringe in these videos. But if it's being done to be more like Kabuki, movies, make believe, or backyard sword swinging excitement, well, I have nothing to say other than it's not what I'd be interested in.

To me seeing some of these things done to "embellish" on sword arts reminds me more of power rangers than martial arts. But if that's what students like, more power to them. Just not what I'd be interested in doing. And I really don't see how that relates to martial arts...

odudog
10-17-2014, 06:31 PM
....You can't really steal the terms and alter their meaning. In Aikikai, it is all Kagari-geiko style. There is no randori - and even if you call it randori, it is not randori.

Not stealing anything or changing their meaning. Going off my wife's input along with her Japanese dictionaries. The kanji dictates everything.

Kakari geiko - hard practice (practice same technique against several partners)
Jiyuwaza - free style techniques (nage can do whatever while uke can only do one attack)
Randori - chaos takeaway (anything goes)

Rupert Atkinson
10-17-2014, 08:35 PM
Not stealing anything or changing their meaning. Going off my wife's input along with her Japanese dictionaries. The kanji dictates everything.

Kakari geiko - hard practice (practice same technique against several partners)
Jiyuwaza - free style techniques (nage can do whatever while uke can only do one attack)
Randori - chaos takeaway (anything goes)

In order of intensity - as I learned it years ago

Kakari geiko - Light practice (free style, but light)
Hikitate-geiko - A bit harder (give and take = partners allow themselves to be thrown if it is half good - they resist if it is not so good - because they can)
Randori - Both parties refuse to be thrown - so a throw only appears if it works. Yes - chaos :-)

All the above are one on one
Ninin-dori = two partners
Sannin-dori = three partners
Tanin-dori = multiple partners

Different schools/Ryu apply different interpretations to many Japanese words / phrases.

PS Japanese-English dictionaries are not always accurate.

odudog
10-18-2014, 05:34 PM
In order of intensity - as I learned it years ago

Kakari geiko - Light practice (free style, but light)
Hikitate-geiko - A bit harder (give and take = partners allow themselves to be thrown if it is half good - they resist if it is not so good - because they can)
Randori - Both parties refuse to be thrown - so a throw only appears if it works. Yes - chaos :-)

All the above are one on one
Ninin-dori = two partners
Sannin-dori = three partners
Tanin-dori = multiple partners

Different schools/Ryu apply different interpretations to many Japanese words / phrases.

PS Japanese-English dictionaries are not always accurate.

We practice ninin-dori, sannin-dori, etc.. as they do in Daito-ryu. As an example in ninin-dori, you let partners grab your arms at the same time, then you try to dispatch them. As far as the Japanese-English dictionaries, my wife has multiple ones that I use and I try to coaborate with two on-line dictionaries that I like. She helps me to fine tune the nuances that a dictionary can't convey.

Rupert Atkinson
10-18-2014, 07:02 PM
As an example in ninin-dori, you let partners grab your arms at the same time, then you try to dispatch them.

In Aikido - that would be Futari-gake, not ninin-dori.

odudog
10-20-2014, 05:10 AM
In Aikido - that would be Futari-gake, not ninin-dori.

It is the same kanji. You use a different (kunyomi) pronunciation while I use onyomi. Tomatoe vs. Tomato.

Peter Goldsbury
10-20-2014, 07:22 AM
On Page 187 of the present Doshu's book 『規範合気道 応用編』((Kihan Aikido, Oyou hen), the fifth chapter has the title, 多人数掛け: Ta-nin-zu-gake. All the examples he gives are of two people holding the wrists, one on each side, which he calls 二人取り (futari-dori / ninin-dori). He gives four examples.