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Budd
08-26-2014, 06:59 PM
Hey all,

Just wanted to share a video that Ellis Amdur put up that describes a bit of the Taikyoku approach to Aikido. There's some good footage from the seminar he did in Pittsburgh last March.

http://youtu.be/7Ba6NShe6ak

phitruong
08-26-2014, 08:49 PM
oooo nice! going to try those. saw the written portion awhile back, but the video is much better. thank you! thank you!

Budd
08-27-2014, 07:01 AM
Hiya Phi,

I tend to practice the Taikyoku shapes from two perspectives (each having a continuum of form/training/principles vs. application):

1) How any technique is basically either a riff or chaining sequence of Taikyoku shapes, such that doing TKK shapes while fitting in appropriately with the energy another person brings will enable techniques to happen.

2) As a container for training internal strength - you need to have solid basics with regard to Jin, Ki, kokyu, etc - but the framework (with all movements being patterned on TKK which are themselves variations of ground up, gravity down, opening and closing the body) is comprehensive enough to imbue whatever IS practice you have into it.

Millsy
08-27-2014, 08:52 AM
I'm glad he put this video out. I trained with Ellis Amdur when he was in DC one night earlier this year, and found what he had to say and was doing in that short time very interesting.

phitruong
08-27-2014, 09:50 AM
I tend to practice the Taikyoku shapes from two perspectives (each having a continuum of form/training/principles vs. application):

1) How any technique is basically either a riff or chaining sequence of Taikyoku shapes, such that doing TKK shapes while fitting in appropriately with the energy another person brings will enable techniques to happen.

2) As a container for training internal strength - you need to have solid basics with regard to Jin, Ki, kokyu, etc - but the framework (with all movements being patterned on TKK which are themselves variations of ground up, gravity down, opening and closing the body) is comprehensive enough to imbue whatever IS practice you have into it.

Hi Budd,

I have worked with bits and pieces similar to this. However, i don't have the systematic build like TKK. I really like TKK, because it's closely related to aikido that folks won't object too much to its introduction. i think i will drop this on our beginners just for fun.

the discussion of ikkyo undo got me to think a bit which is always a dangerous thing, because my brain doesn't like to think too much. most folks, that i encountered, view ikkyo as up and finish with the down. they viewed the down as the finishing portion. whereas Ellis used the down as the starting point instead of the finishing point. i kept thinking of Tongbeiquan.

one of the IS dark lord of the Sith mentioned that aikido is a really good container for IS training. however, folks tend to focus on the container and not within.

mathewjgano
08-27-2014, 10:56 AM
Hey all,

Just wanted to share a video that Ellis Amdur put up that describes a bit of the Taikyoku approach to Aikido. There's some good footage from the seminar he did in Pittsburgh last March.

http://youtu.be/7Ba6NShe6ak

Much appreciated! Thank you!

Adam Huss
08-27-2014, 09:27 PM
I feel like I would have a good time training with this man! Happy to see someone emphasize many of the same points I emphasize in my training. I haven't been able to catch the video in its entirety, but I will make it a point to when time becomes available.

Ellis Amdur
08-27-2014, 09:35 PM
Adam - I see you are in Ohio. I'll be teaching a workshop at 015 Winter Seminar in Oberlin Aikido Club the last weekend in January. Perhaps we'll meet then.

Best
Ellis Amdur

robin_jet_alt
08-28-2014, 01:27 AM
I second what Adam says. I think we are looking for the same thing from our aikido. Unfortunately, I doubt Ellis will be in Tasmania any time soon.

AsimHanif
08-28-2014, 06:52 AM
Hi Ellis.
So this is the seminar I heard so much about! You and I have had some cursory discussions about the possible impact of boxing in studying aikido so it was interesting to see some of your application. I'm not sure (repeat not sure) you and I are applying the mechanics in the same way, though I think we may agree in theory. I'm definitely looking forward to your visit to VA in the Spring of 2015. My material has been in editing for awhile but hopefully it will be out before your visit. This stuff should make for a good late night discussion:-)

One of the things that stood out for me in the vid is when you mentioned hitting with the ground. I've had some discussions with my IP friends about this. In boxing when we tell a fighter to 'sit down on your punches', this is what we mean...to drop your weight or center at the moment of impact. This may be a tiny bit of IP in boxing and why a jab can be more than just a probing technique. I've seen guys punished by a jab like this. I may have shown some of this in my earlier test vid, although I was focusing more on the hips and the easy to see body mechanics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyk2CXC7C5U

Thanks for presenting this material. Again, looking forward to your visit to our dojo.

Asim

rvanvalk
08-28-2014, 07:37 AM
One of the things that has intrigued me about Ellis's Taikyoku is the universality of it. I was able to seamlessly integrate it into my traditional hapkido practice. In fact, it is now the framework for my entire curriculum. Ellis's atemi as 'hitting body' theory, the force vectors as themes of movement, and the solo practice methods have truly propelled my learning and teaching forward. I have brand new students chaining together techniques and 'feeling' countering techniques in a way that, to an outsider, looks like high-level practice - because it is.

At first, I thought that the ease with which I was able to integrate Taikyoku into my curriculum was simply because of the technical relationship between aikido and hapkido through Daito-ryu aikijujutsu (this is NOT an aikido vs hapkido thread NOR is it a place to debate the relationship between Choi Yong-sul and Takeda Sokaku - For more on this, I urge you to read Ellis's article A Conversation with Daito-ryu's Other Child). However, I also practice BJJ and both myself and my BJJ instructor, with Budd's help, have found immense value in the 'themes' of movement that Taikyoku has to offer within grappling practice as well. As an example, the 'up' part of Ikkyoku can easily be used to practice gaining under-hooks while the 'down' part of Ikkyoku is identical to the weight drop used in a good head-clinch pull-down. Isn't the shape of Sankyoku identical to the shape of the beginning of a cross-collar choke? Yonkyoku is the perfect vehicle for a sit-through headlock in kesa-gatame.

Then, there's the parallels between these themes and boxing/Muay Thai, but I don't want to distract from the topic at hand which is the value of Taikyoku in Aikido.

Regards,

Currawong
08-28-2014, 09:01 AM
After having read some of Ellis' articles here recently (having returned to Aikiweb as well as Aikido recently) I very much appreciate these concepts and video. I feel like it is going to help me fill in some gaping holes in my training and understanding.

I hope I can find some way to make it to one of Ellis' seminars in the future.

Budd
08-28-2014, 09:44 AM
One of the things that stood out for me in the vid is when you mentioned hitting with the ground. I've had some discussions with my IP friends about this. In boxing when we tell a fighter to 'sit down on your punches', this is what we mean...to drop your weight or center at the moment of impact. This may be a tiny bit of IP in boxing and why a jab can be more than just a probing technique. I've seen guys punished by a jab like this. I may have shown some of this in my earlier test vid, although I was focusing more on the hips and the easy to see body mechanics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyk2CXC7C5U

Thanks for presenting this material. Again, looking forward to your visit to our dojo.

Asim

Hi Asim,

I think you're correct on some of the overlaps in sitting on your punches and optimally transferring the weight/ground/gravity powers into the hit. Where Internal Strength comes into the mix is how the body gets connected/conditioned to most optimally do this and the skill of balancing/managing the weight/gravity/ground powers together.

In that regard, the Taikyoku have provided an excellent container as a delivery system to put those body skill/training concepts into practice as an application mechanism. Then it becomes a matter of ordering the precedence by which you bring them together. Some will focus more on application initially, while others will pay more attention to building the conditioning/skills before too much application. Hardest of all is doing them all together and there are various opinions out there regarding the efficacy of what works best.

akiy
08-28-2014, 11:08 AM
Here's a nice article by Guillaume Erard on the subject of solo practice of aikido which includes elements of private conversations between him and Ellis. As Ellis has said in regards to the article, "Part of the article concerns Guillaume and my dialogue on this subject, the principles being illustrated in the Taikyoku Aikido video I posted recently."

http://www.guillaumeerard.com/aikido/articles/the-origin-and-purpose-of-solo-practice-in-aikido

-- Jun