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Asou
07-11-2014, 09:55 AM
Hi guys, I want to ask about the elusive Irimi Nage

How do you train your irimi nage in your Dojo? Do you try to faceplant your uke to the mat, then wait for them to recover and do the cut a la hombu dojo? Or do you do simple iriminage, just enter, hold the head, then cut? Or both? My dojo's training is like the 1st form of this clip (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nKzDCjNpkY ) (00:14 - 00:20), enter hold the head, and cut. and the second form (00:34 - 00:44), enter, hold the head, tenkan with it, and cut down.

When holding the head, which one do you prefer? Hold the side of neck? Grab the gi? And why?

Currently, in my dojo, we're trying to try the third form of that clip, but it's really hard to push the uke off-balance till they almost kneel to the ground like that, how do you do it? Is it because of the compliance of the uke? Because, the first time we try it, the movement doesn't feel natural at all, especially at 00:54 where after nage took uke's balance by trying to faceplanting him, uke still do a two step forward to nage's side and getting ready to be thrown. One of my sensei told me that in order to achieve that, the uke must "know the choreography" or in other words, it's a specific step that uke must learn in order to be thrown into a high fall like that. Hence, explaining the extra steps. Is that true? What do you guys think?

Sorry for the long questions :sorry: Irimi nage is my favorite technique, so I want to learn more. Thank you :D

Cliff Judge
07-11-2014, 10:55 AM
Hi guys, I want to ask about the elusive Irimi Nage

How do you train your irimi nage in your Dojo? Do you try to faceplant your uke to the mat, then wait for them to recover and do the cut a la hombu dojo? Or do you do simple iriminage, just enter, hold the head, then cut? Or both? My dojo's training is like the 1st form of this clip (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nKzDCjNpkY ) (00:14 - 00:20), enter hold the head, and cut. and the second form (00:34 - 00:44), enter, hold the head, tenkan with it, and cut down.

When holding the head, which one do you prefer? Hold the side of neck? Grab the gi? And why?

Currently, in my dojo, we're trying to try the third form of that clip, but it's really hard to push the uke off-balance till they almost kneel to the ground like that, how do you do it? Is it because of the compliance of the uke? Because, the first time we try it, the movement doesn't feel natural at all, especially at 00:54 where after nage took uke's balance by trying to faceplanting him, uke still do a two step forward to nage's side and getting ready to be thrown. One of my sensei told me that in order to achieve that, the uke must "know the choreography" or in other words, it's a specific step that uke must learn in order to be thrown into a high fall like that. Hence, explaining the extra steps. Is that true? What do you guys think?

Sorry for the long questions :sorry: Irimi nage is my favorite technique, so I want to learn more. Thank you :D

I don't know if you mean to use the word "push" there, but that's not how I would describe what Tissier is doing and it is not going to work. So that would be your problem.

If you make a smooth enough entry to uke's rear, without disrputing their attack too much, you can *tip them over* towards the corner where they have no leg. Then you drop your own weight and turn, and they come along with you. It is actually really easy to just dump them right down onto the mat - the difficult part is keeping control of them as they come around - you don't want them to turn INTO you and tackle, and you don't want them to stand back up before they are right where you want them.

Anyway, if it helps

1) make a clean entry and get behind uke
2) tip uke just a bit, she should be connected and off-balance
3) move yourself

Janet Rosen
07-11-2014, 03:26 PM
I have never been a fan of the faceplant for two reasons: 1) it relies on a trained uke to keep their legs under their center and pop up, which to me is highly unnatural and 2) frankly if I faceplant somebody the last thing I want is to get them even partway up again; I'm going for an immobilizing pin. When I was training at a dojo that used that as their ura version of iriminage, as uke I never could learn the preferred response. Nage would drive me down and forward, and it was Hello, Mat. They would either start dragging me back or or want me to start gathering myself up, neither of which I found very sensible.
I like either the short, direct form, or a less vertical form of the turning version - which is called kokyunage in dojo with Tohei Sensei lineage - where uke is essentially directed forward and around nage (the initial unbalancing is not pulling uke but drawing uke ever so slightly forward onto his front foot so the circle is forward-moving), uke describing a larger circle around nage's spiraling smaller circle, and it is the "opening door" at the outside hip that allows uke's hips to enter but not his upper body.
My preferred hand position is gently attached to uke's head; I find at shoulder is is too easy to interfere with my own movement by inadvertendly pushing down on uke - eliciting resistance - and at neck it tends to make uke tense and resistive.

robin_jet_alt
07-11-2014, 05:30 PM
I couldn't get the clip to play, but I think I get what you mean by the various styles. I have practiced all of them at one point or another. Personally, I prefer to keep it simple and not to do the big down and up movement. However, since you want to learn it, I think Cliff hit the nail on the head. You should never push your uke. Get in the same position that you would for your regular irimi-nage (i.e. all the way behind your uke, not slightly in front where they can elbow you) and rather than propelling them forward, try to take them backwards by stepping out and dropping straight down. I'll repeat that: Don't do a circular movement, just step out and drop down. If your uke ends up on the mat and can't get up again, that's their problem. If they are able to receive it, then they will circle around and it will look like you have done a circular movement. This is why Janet was saying that the technique is dependent on uke maintaining their legs under them. An unpracticed uke will end up on the mat every time, and being able to receive this technique is an art in and of itself.

Asou
07-12-2014, 03:46 AM
thanks for the kind responses :o let's discuss

I have never been a fan of the faceplant for two reasons: 1) it relies on a trained uke to keep their legs under their center and pop up, which to me is highly unnatural and 2) frankly if I faceplant somebody the last thing I want is to get them even partway up again; I'm going for an immobilizing pin. When I was training at a dojo that used that as their ura version of iriminage, as uke I never could learn the preferred response. Nage would drive me down and forward, and it was Hello, Mat. They would either start dragging me back or or want me to start gathering myself up, neither of which I found very sensible.
I like either the short, direct form, or a less vertical form of the turning version - which is called kokyunage in dojo with Tohei Sensei lineage - where uke is essentially directed forward and around nage (the initial unbalancing is not pulling uke but drawing uke ever so slightly forward onto his front foot so the circle is forward-moving), uke describing a larger circle around nage's spiraling smaller circle, and it is the "opening door" at the outside hip that allows uke's hips to enter but not his upper body.
My preferred hand position is gently attached to uke's head; I find at shoulder is is too easy to interfere with my own movement by inadvertendly pushing down on uke - eliciting resistance - and at neck it tends to make uke tense and resistive.

In our dojo, we never study this "faceplant" technique, that's why, our response is a bit erratic as an uke. First time we try this, it's like that, we're not trying to regain our balance by pop back up and moving up. Well, okay, we tried to but not while moving forward, it feels unnatural is all. This is why we're thinking that this is just choreography.

Still, it's beautiful to watch.

I don't know if you mean to use the word "push" there, but that's not how I would describe what Tissier is doing and it is not going to work. So that would be your problem.

If you make a smooth enough entry to uke's rear, without disrputing their attack too much, you can *tip them over* towards the corner where they have no leg. Then you drop your own weight and turn, and they come along with you. It is actually really easy to just dump them right down onto the mat - the difficult part is keeping control of them as they come around - you don't want them to turn INTO you and tackle, and you don't want them to stand back up before they are right where you want them.

Anyway, if it helps

1) make a clean entry and get behind uke
2) tip uke just a bit, she should be connected and off-balance
3) move yourself

I couldn't get the clip to play, but I think I get what you mean by the various styles. I have practiced all of them at one point or another. Personally, I prefer to keep it simple and not to do the big down and up movement. However, since you want to learn it, I think Cliff hit the nail on the head. You should never push your uke. Get in the same position that you would for your regular irimi-nage (i.e. all the way behind your uke, not slightly in front where they can elbow you) and rather than propelling them forward, try to take them backwards by stepping out and dropping straight down. I'll repeat that: Don't do a circular movement, just step out and drop down. If your uke ends up on the mat and can't get up again, that's their problem. If they are able to receive it, then they will circle around and it will look like you have done a circular movement. This is why Janet was saying that the technique is dependent on uke maintaining their legs under them. An unpracticed uke will end up on the mat every time, and being able to receive this technique is an art in and of itself.

thanks, those are good tips, I think I will try that next time on the mat. I can imagine what are you saying (the corner where they have no leg), push etc. From Cliff's tips and Robin's, I was trying some mental images of getting behind uke directly, grab both uke's shoulders with both of my hands, then turn it a bit (left or right, but let's choose right), followed immediately by a step back with my right foot while dropping my weight and center, finalized by guiding uke's shoulders diagonally down. Phew, I hope she's down and automatically rotating!

Well, if that's applicable on Monday, I still have so many things to learn lol, how to keep the initial kuzushi connected, knowing when is the time to cut, etc.

And I'm sorry I admit I misunderstood from the movie (it looks like he's pushing with arms), I forgot that turning power is generated from the center/hara.

Cliff Judge
07-12-2014, 05:24 AM
Fwiw, at my dojo we traditionally wait for uke to get back up so we can knock them down again...:)

Adam Huss
07-12-2014, 05:43 AM
Yay! Irimi Nage thread!

Are you just talking about shomen iriminage and not irimi tsuki or sokumen irimi nage?

Watched the Tiisier video. Granted this is just a video clip from the internet...but since its instructional I'll make a couple comments;

1) I would like to see uke being off-balanced more in the initial movement, so that uke isn't just standing there waiting, completely in balance, for nage to walk around behind.

2) I like to see a little more follow-through on the throws. My rule of thumb is, for it to be iriminage, nage has to step both behind and to the far corner, of uke's center line. What Tissier is doing seems almost more like a kokyunage.

I like his arm movement, I kind of copy off that. Bringing the arm up high like that brings uke into nage's body better - more depth. Iriminage is a throw done with the tricep area and chest area, and moving the arm this way helps facilitate that orientation, and greater surface area contact.

The 'face plant' maneuver: Like everyone said, its choreographed. I've been uke for some talented instructors who do that variation, and its all I can do just to keep myself in control of nage. I've heard explanations as to why uke should keep his feet churning and stay close to nage, but if you have to provide a story why uke is acting a specific way, you lose me.

I don't have a preference as to grabbing the side of the neck or collar. I feel like it doesn't matter so long as uke is physically connected to your body, and your body is upright.

I like irimi nage as well - all variations of the technique.

I guess a follow-up question from me would be - who focuses on off balancing uke via their head and who does it via their upper body?

Asou
07-12-2014, 06:49 AM
Yay! Irimi Nage thread!

Are you just talking about shomen iriminage and not irimi tsuki or sokumen irimi nage?

Watched the Tiisier video. Granted this is just a video clip from the internet...but since its instructional I'll make a couple comments;

1) I would like to see uke being off-balanced more in the initial movement, so that uke isn't just standing there waiting, completely in balance, for nage to walk around behind.

2) I like to see a little more follow-through on the throws. My rule of thumb is, for it to be iriminage, nage has to step both behind and to the far corner, of uke's center line. What Tissier is doing seems almost more like a kokyunage.

I like his arm movement, I kind of copy off that. Bringing the arm up high like that brings uke into nage's body better - more depth. Iriminage is a throw done with the tricep area and chest area, and moving the arm this way helps facilitate that orientation, and greater surface area contact.

The 'face plant' maneuver: Like everyone said, its choreographed. I've been uke for some talented instructors who do that variation, and its all I can do just to keep myself in control of nage. I've heard explanations as to why uke should keep his feet churning and stay close to nage, but if you have to provide a story why uke is acting a specific way, you lose me.

I don't have a preference as to grabbing the side of the neck or collar. I feel like it doesn't matter so long as uke is physically connected to your body, and your body is upright.

I like irimi nage as well - all variations of the technique.

I guess a follow-up question from me would be - who focuses on off balancing uke via their head and who does it via their upper body?

Hi, Adam! Onegaishimasu! Well, there are hundreds of videos if you'd like to see uke to give extra momentum to nage by attacking with intents with shomenuchi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsMemmqLyqA), yokomenuchi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZef071snTM), or maybe a 4 minutes full of flying bodies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3NmaYu2Kvc) perhaps? :D :D

The reason why I choose a static one is because it's the hardest to unbalance/no momentum. Additionally, it also looks like what we've tried in our dojo. Haha, eventually, the uke get tired of attacking and the nage also got tired of constant failing to unbalance , so the uke just stand still, pretending a body posture after an attack :D. Well, my logic is: if I can unbalance this static stance, then I should be able to unbalance an uke attacking with intent (considering the irimi is perfect though). So, we get past the irimi stage, directly to the faceplant stage.

Yes, I also find the way he is using his hand to execute a throw quite awesome. I think he uses his forehand to your side of your head just a little bit on top of your ears, then cut down diagonally to throw uke, while stepping forward with the same foot as the hand that executes the throw (if throwing with right arms, right foot comes forward). Try it on your head, very easy to topple a balance from that point, ya? Kinda like tenchi nage.

Well, if it's a choreography, at least maybe we can practice the second form (00:34 - 00:44), not the third "faceplant" form". The faceplant version is impressive and beautiful, maybe useful for a demo, or when jiyu waza (just faceplant uke without throw). This is just for study purpose, In our dojo, we believe every movement has a purpose to serve. That's why we're a bit experimenting. Y'know, why this, why that, how does it feel? Natural or not, blah blah..

Janet Rosen
07-12-2014, 02:57 PM
Yay! Irimi Nage thread!

I guess a follow-up question from me would be - who focuses on off balancing uke via their head and who does it via their upper body?

:D

My answer is... yes...by which I mean....when I first enter, I want to draw uke forward so he is slightly weighted onto/in front of his front foot - so I guess that would be initial entry is balance break via upper body, although I am considering it simply attaching to uke and adjusting my structure rather than pushing uke forward. Once I start to move, I try to keep a balance in my own structure between my hand which is attached to uke's head and slowly guiding it towards my opposite shoulder - and my other hand which is attached to uke's arm and using that connection to get his center past my center...however, in practice, I've been getting feedback from partners sensitive enough to notice that I tend to overplay the hand-at-head.
So back to try another day :-) Fortunately what we call shomenuchi kokyunage (most folks' iriminage ura version but without the down-to-mat faceplant thingie) is part of "8 basics" so we do it pretty much every class at least four times each!

JP3
07-12-2014, 05:30 PM
I like Janet's way of explaining what I/we do. Enter on uke's attack side, usual thing and we try to place the entering foot ON the imaginary centerpost of the system's rotation (it generally ends up just behind uke's inside foot), then rotate uke forward witht he arm which attacked trapped and led around in front of uke in a descending arc, while the other hand is somewhere (unimportant where, just somewhere) over uke's head/neck/shoulders giving them a gentle down impetus.

Uke steps forward, doesn't like either the forward or the downward or both, and their back pulls them up and that's when the rotation reverses and we... if we're in a good mood, throw to the horizon line, and if not, throw at our feet in a sort of crumpling spine lock situation if slow, and a big Whomp if fast.

Janet Rosen
07-12-2014, 06:39 PM
I like Janet's way of explaining what I/we do. Enter on uke's attack side, usual thing and we try to place the entering foot ON the imaginary centerpost of the system's rotation (it generally ends up just behind uke's inside foot), then rotate uke forward witht he arm which attacked trapped and led around in front of uke in a descending arc, while the other hand is somewhere (unimportant where, just somewhere) over uke's head/neck/shoulders giving them a gentle down impetus.

Uke steps forward, doesn't like either the forward or the downward or both, and their back pulls them up and that's when the rotation reverses and we... if we're in a good mood, throw to the horizon line, and if not, throw at our feet in a sort of crumpling spine lock situation if slow, and a big Whomp if fast.

:)
Yeah....the latter done fast does call for a nice oops! throw-your-feet-up hard backfall although - I am sure you know this but it should be said in the forum - NOT because of feeling you are going to be clotheslined. There should be no clotheslining involved, energy is going up over uke in a wave behind him.

Asou
07-13-2014, 04:51 AM
:)
Yeah....the latter done fast does call for a nice oops! throw-your-feet-up hard backfall although - I am sure you know this but it should be said in the forum - NOT because of feeling you are going to be clotheslined. There should be no clotheslining involved, energy is going up over uke in a wave behind him.

I like Janet's way of explaining what I/we do. Enter on uke's attack side, usual thing and we try to place the entering foot ON the imaginary centerpost of the system's rotation (it generally ends up just behind uke's inside foot), then rotate uke forward witht he arm which attacked trapped and led around in front of uke in a descending arc, while the other hand is somewhere (unimportant where, just somewhere) over uke's head/neck/shoulders giving them a gentle down impetus.

Uke steps forward, doesn't like either the forward or the downward or both, and their back pulls them up and that's when the rotation reverses and we... if we're in a good mood, throw to the horizon line, and if not, throw at our feet in a sort of crumpling spine lock situation if slow, and a big Whomp if fast.

do you have any clips? I had a hard time imagining this. What i imagine is: no faceplant, just rotate the body and keep rotating until uke lose its own balance, the cut can be gentle as uke has already been destabilized enough.

robin_jet_alt
07-13-2014, 07:03 AM
do you have any clips? I had a hard time imagining this. What i imagine is: no faceplant, just rotate the body and keep rotating until uke lose its own balance, the cut can be gentle as uke has already been destabilized enough.

I'm getting confused. What is it that you are having a hard time visualizing? If it is the "oops, throw your feet in the air break-fall," there is a great example of it in your own profile picture.

Carsten Möllering
07-13-2014, 09:36 AM
Is it because of the compliance of the uke?No.
Over the time you will learn to break the balance of uke. It's more easy by guiding (not pushing) his shoulder from the side or the side of his head. It ist more difficult when laying your hand on his shoulder. It is importatn to break ukes balance to his side, not to his front.

When you want uke to come up again, don't lead him to strong, to bring him to the ground with too much intent, but let him kind of swing down and up. Don't push him down, don't pull him up. When you break ukes balance to his side, he will most likely be able to come up again. Even when he is not used to be moved this way. Whe you break ukes balance to the front, he most likely will stay at the floor ... and attack your legs ...

So: Yes, it works.

but ...

This is how we do irimi nage. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW1eJsUPCTE&feature=player_detailpage)

JP3
07-13-2014, 01:55 PM
do you have any clips? I had a hard time imagining this. What i imagine is: no faceplant, just rotate the body and keep rotating until uke lose its own balance, the cut can be gentle as uke has already been destabilized enough.

Sure, of the latter spinal locking variation. Here is a couple of my students. She is doing (our understanding of, I didn't have the pleasure of training with Mr. Stevens, or his son, Moe, yet - I got this from Nick Lowry) the Merritt Stevens self defense system, which I put in our curriculum for a practical self-defense approach to converting kata to SD.

I agree with you, Janet, btw.

JP3
07-13-2014, 01:57 PM
Oops, apologies. I forgot to mention that the iriminage technique is the fifth she demonstrates out of the 10 there.

Janet Rosen
07-13-2014, 09:40 PM
John...link???

kewms
07-13-2014, 11:11 PM
do you have any clips? I had a hard time imagining this. What i imagine is: no faceplant, just rotate the body and keep rotating until uke lose its own balance, the cut can be gentle as uke has already been destabilized enough.

Just rotating isn't going to destabilize a competent uke. You need to disrupt their alignment somehow.

I was taught that the "neck" hand should rest pretty much at the top of the spine, with the spine lying in the "V" between the fingers and thumb. From there, the feeling is more of the hand falling toward your own center, NOT pushing/pulling uke downward.

Exactly what this does to uke's body will depend on him. A more flexible and responsive person will lower their center to try to keep their alignment, allowing you to "bounce" them back up and leading to the "classic" irimi nage back fall. A less responsive person is likely to bend at the waist, leading to either a faceplant or a forward roll.

Katherine

robin_jet_alt
07-14-2014, 12:31 AM
Just rotating isn't going to destabilize a competent uke. You need to disrupt their alignment somehow.

From there, the feeling is more of the hand falling toward your own center, NOT pushing/pulling uke downward.



I second this. In addition, I find a good guide is to make sure your elbow rests against uke's spine. This will prevent your from pushing with your hand.

Janet Rosen
07-14-2014, 05:11 AM
Just rotating isn't going to destabilize a competent uke. You need to disrupt their alignment somehow.

I was taught that the "neck" hand should rest pretty much at the top of the spine, with the spine lying in the "V" between the fingers and thumb. From there, the feeling is more of the hand falling toward your own center, NOT pushing/pulling uke downward.

Exactly what this does to uke's body will depend on him. A more flexible and responsive person will lower their center to try to keep their alignment, allowing you to "bounce" them back up and leading to the "classic" irimi nage back fall. A less responsive person is likely to bend at the waist, leading to either a faceplant or a forward roll.

Katherine

Agree 100% lateral won't do it.
In analyzing how I've come to do it over the past few years with what I think of as opening the bottom of a Dutch door while closing the top for the final throw...I tend to keep my hand pretty much where it is, not maybe very slightly aiming down as I let my own center drop a little while I'm pivoting, and tend to keep uke at that lower position then change the trajectory as I close the door rather them letting him up for the transition between going forward and falling backward.
Don't know if my insomniac writing will make sense.

Mario Tobias
07-14-2014, 05:52 AM
I think the proper way to hold is by the collar. A lot of high ranking shihans do it.

The only logic I see to doing this is because if nage holds uke by the shoulder, by the time nage wants to throw, the arm/hand holding uke's shoulder is actually blocking the throw. Holding uke by the shoulder is actually hindering the throw. It's like one arm is cradling the head and one arm is throwing which makes it ineffective IMO because the 2 are opposing each other. You don't want that.

The initial engagement maybe to hold neck/shoulder but during the throw it needs to switch to the collar.

By holding uke on the collar, the hindrance/blockage on the throwing arm is removed.

This is my interpretation.

phitruong
07-14-2014, 07:16 AM
Mary Heiny sensei referred to this as "hauling sacks of potato". she didn't care much for hauling and i don't either. she also mentioned that you should be able to deliver 3 atemi in every technique. for standard irimi nage, i got 2 strikes in: deflect the attack, strike the kidney, strike the head. haven't figure out the third one yet, unless the third strike is the other hand, the one most folks grab for shoulder/collar, using ridge hand strike to the back of the head at the same time the front hand strike the temple, i.e. shear across the neck bone. or could be a hammer strike when uke falling down. luckily i am not a violent man, unless you stand between me and the foods. :)

reza.n
07-14-2014, 09:13 AM
I watched the clip and as always Christian Tissier performance is beautiful and not so practical!
Actually there were 2 forms and the uke is so great ;)

as my own experience I think the finishing of Irimi-nage is too important, it's not good to finish the Irimi-nage with help of uke.
the point in any type of Irimi-nage is to hold back of the uke's neck and push the neck forward while simultaneously with other hand elbow (arm) push the uke's head upward (uke's jaw should be on the tori's arm) and it starts moving a small half circle (upward force to downward).

in other word, think you have a bowl of soup in your hand (the hand that makes the finishing cut) and you want to pour the soup out and make the bowl upside down without turning your wrist joint and just by using your shoulder (by turning your arm around a tiny circle).

NagaBaba
07-14-2014, 09:14 AM
I think the proper way to hold is by the collar

I disagree. To be able to effectively manipulate a human body on beginner level, from biomechanical point of view you need 3 points – in case of iriminage, we have one point at the ground and 2 points on both shoulders. These 3 points are enough to collapse his body by removing of alignment of his structure…….. holding both hands on the neck(unless you will choke him out in one second) or throwing atemi everywhere will never do a job – uke can turn his hips and counter.

Once a uke’s body starts to collapse you need to simply throw him out. Correct question is not where you hold him in this moment, but how you transfer a power from your body to his body. You simply need a point of contact that’s all. Look at the videos of Shioda sensei; how he did it, he throw his uke with almost any part of his body, even with buttocks  no particular hold was necessary….
On more advanced level you may use more sophisticated tools that vulgar physical locks do collapse attacker, but I don’t think it would be very easy to describe here  and even less ease to understand….

kewms
07-14-2014, 09:48 AM
Mary Heiny sensei referred to this as "hauling sacks of potato". she didn't care much for hauling and i don't either. she also mentioned that you should be able to deliver 3 atemi in every technique. for standard irimi nage, i got 2 strikes in: deflect the attack, strike the kidney, strike the head. haven't figure out the third one yet, unless the third strike is the other hand, the one most folks grab for shoulder/collar, using ridge hand strike to the back of the head at the same time the front hand strike the temple, i.e. shear across the neck bone. or could be a hammer strike when uke falling down. luckily i am not a violent man, unless you stand between me and the foods. :)

Frank Doran Sensei sometimes teaches irimi nage as a series of three sword cuts: body cut on the entry, neck cut from behind, and then a kesa giri-like cut on the throw. Saotome Sensei sometimes shows it with three atemi, the last one being either an elbow strike to the chest. There are lots of variations around the same general idea.

Katherine

jonreading
07-14-2014, 10:43 AM
Our waza is currently in the toilet. That said...

I am not a fan of irimi nage. I actually think 2 judo throws (o soto gari and koshi guruma) do a better job of showing the jujutsu of what is going on. When I first started seeing the "uke turns into nage and gets split over the hip" throw, I remembered thinking, "isn't that just a funky koshi guruma?"
Here is a link to some koshi guruma samples:
http://youtu.be/pJsQrgMhgk4
Some o sot gari samples:
http://youtu.be/pHAlYRNMt-E
(http://youtu.be/pHAlYRNMt-E)

So what's make irimi nage different? I guess...aiki...
I tend to think about the chokusen no irimi nage as my irimi nage; a direct entering throw with no tenkan. If you can get that guy, you can making a pretty turn and do it, too. I think irimi is vertical separation with lateral expression. Both Tissier sensei and Ikeda sensei often show very large vertical movement and very clear body rotation to illustrate the vertical separation and lateral movement.

I am not sure grabbing is particularly helpful. I tend to feel like the grip is more to stay connected to a partner you are throwing, not contribute to the throw. Ultimately, I think you are separating your partner's spinal alignment through vertical movement and using lateral movement to create kuzushi. Aside from relative position - I am not sure we're talking much difference from ten chi nage in terms of principles, only the lateral movement.

Cliff Judge
07-14-2014, 11:39 AM
I was taught that the "neck" hand should rest pretty much at the top of the spine, with the spine lying in the "V" between the fingers and thumb. From there, the feeling is more of the hand falling toward your own center, NOT pushing/pulling uke downward.

Exactly what this does to uke's body will depend on him. A more flexible and responsive person will lower their center to try to keep their alignment, allowing you to "bounce" them back up and leading to the "classic" irimi nage back fall. A less responsive person is likely to bend at the waist, leading to either a faceplant or a forward roll.


Interesting...I was originally taught that the neck hand should be on the side of the neck, so the fingers could dig into the nerve cluster behind the jaw on an uncompliant uke. And that uke's head should be brough to about your shoulder, or at least towards if they don't bend all the way. All seems fine on paper, but I've never been very good at it.

Adam Huss
07-14-2014, 01:25 PM
For me, the iriminage variation I end up with often depends on what uke is doing. Ive been lucky enough to train with a handful of aikido organizations and steal any tips, tricks, or full-on techniques that work for me. Iriminage is no exception - so you'll often see me doing about three or four very different looking kihon. Some things that are important to me are;
actually off-balancing uke from the beginning, while getting control of his or her center. I do this by ensuring whatever I am holding onto (collar, neck, etc) is snugly attached to some part of my body (generally chest or far shoulder, whatever so long as I can get my non-holding arm around for the throwy part).

I also ensure uke's head is misaligned from his spine, off to a side or corner. I try not to ever let uke have their head in the same line as their hips/spine as they can regain balance with little effort.

I don't bring uke to the ground. I don't like to be in a situation where I have to fight them back up, I feel like it's too time consuming, and also the reason mentioned in the above paragraph.

Other than that I just make sure I am throwing with my body - as in my chest/armpit area, and that uke is completely under me and not floating away.

kewms
07-14-2014, 05:37 PM
Interesting...I was originally taught that the neck hand should be on the side of the neck, so the fingers could dig into the nerve cluster behind the jaw on an uncompliant uke. And that uke's head should be brough to about your shoulder, or at least towards if they don't bend all the way. All seems fine on paper, but I've never been very good at it.

Many variations are possible, so without actually seeing what you do I'd rather not speculate too much.

I will say that my experience with that nerve cluster is that it requires a great deal of accuracy to do more than make uke grumpy. Applying more pressure in the wrong spot not only won't work, but is likely to give uke something to fight back against: always a bad idea. OTOH, having a soft "neck" hand gives you lots of options, including that one.

None of my teachers have put much emphasis on the "head-to-shoulder" aspect. I think disruption of uke's alignment matters more than exact relative positions, which will depend on body type anyway.

Katherine

Janet Rosen
07-14-2014, 05:44 PM
None of my teachers have put much emphasis on the "head-to-shoulder" aspect. I think disruption of uke's alignment matters more than exact relative positions, which will depend on body type anyway.

Katherine

Agree

JP3
07-14-2014, 05:46 PM
Well, let's try this again...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWL27rWV6Xs

My first time trying to link in a youtube clip, y'all. Apologies.

If you can't see it, on youtube you can search "wasabidojo merritt complete" and it'll come up.

JP3
07-14-2014, 05:59 PM
On Phi Truong's atemi love, let's us see....

1. On entry, atemi against the attacking hand/arm...

2. Still on entry your inbound knee into the attacker's outer thigh (this happens "accidentally" for me from time to time, I think it's the awareness from the Muay Thai training, it's just so easy and obviously there to strike)...

3. Non-traditional, but what about the inner forearm shiver to the back of the neck, that's right ehre.

** Comment ** I don't grab anything when I do iriminage, the one hand is up, over and around uke's shoulder, nd my arm falls into the space between the far shoulder and neck. I do "think" an arm's weight (I've a long arm so it must weigh a lot) towards the earth while rotating uke.

4. On the reversing of rotation, the obvious one is the one offensive to Janet, the whiplash clothesline, which "can" be done as a rising ridgehand strike not at uke's head but just past it, which means that the actual striking surface is the other inner forearm.

5. And of course, my personally favorite bit of "striking" mean-ness is to nail uke with a semi-traditional osoto-gari as part and parcel of gake. That's really nasty and don't do it to anybody buty your friends when they know you are working on it. You're likely to invert someone to land on their head. Unpleasant in the extreme.

Asou
07-14-2014, 09:46 PM
Well, I tried yesterday. It's best for me to "catch" their head right after irimi and before stepping to uke's behind. I catch them in the side of the forehead, just above eye level and ears. After that, guide the head to the side and downwards to the front of my shoulder, but while doing tenkan, so, it will look like a spiral just by doing that. Amazingly, uke's body just following my lead on his head.

Then for the throw, after rotating (the classic rotation of iriminage), I just suddenly reverse the rotation, while rising my arms slowly beneath uke's chin, from here, uke is already unbalanced, I can give a gentle push and he will fall, and if I'm feeling like a showman, just cut diagonally to my front (to the center of the spiral), making uke do a high fall.

Funny thing is, the key to this is just practice, practice, practice. My sensei just give me a hint, "Spiral", then he asked all of us to remain silent while practicing. The class was conditioned into total silence. Then we do irimi nage for a full 2 hours (with different strikes though).

What about the faceplant? Well, also did that, just drop your weight while holding the head. But sadly, I can't control uke. Can't control his (expected) reaction, can't control the next move, can't control anything. I deemed that too dangerous and back to basics.

One of my "aha!" moments in aikido. A glimpse of enlightenment.

Asou
07-14-2014, 10:17 PM
For me, the iriminage variation I end up with often depends on what uke is doing. Ive been lucky enough to train with a handful of aikido organizations and steal any tips, tricks, or full-on techniques that work for me. Iriminage is no exception - so you'll often see me doing about three or four very different looking kihon. Some things that are important to me are;
actually off-balancing uke from the beginning, while getting control of his or her center. I do this by ensuring whatever I am holding onto (collar, neck, etc) is snugly attached to some part of my body (generally chest or far shoulder, whatever so long as I can get my non-holding arm around for the throwy part).

I also ensure uke's head is misaligned from his spine, off to a side or corner. I try not to ever let uke have their head in the same line as their hips/spine as they can regain balance with little effort.

I don't bring uke to the ground. I don't like to be in a situation where I have to fight them back up, I feel like it's too time consuming, and also the reason mentioned in the above paragraph.

Other than that I just make sure I am throwing with my body - as in my chest/armpit area, and that uke is completely under me and not floating away.

yes, exactly what I just realized yesterday, misalign uke's head with his spine, "carry" the head with you as you make your own center of rotation.

http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag251/Asou_Sekuhara/iriminage1_zps6304876b.jpg

then, you can throw uke diagonally inside toward your center.

http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag251/Asou_Sekuhara/iriminage2_zps5e0fc90e.jpg

Lead the head, the body shall follows. Sorry for the bad drawing lol :p , just for illustration purposes.

What I'm thinking now is... What can I do to make uke more unbalanced, as in making his head and spine really misaligned/not straight? Should I make a greater circle of rotation? Shall I side step first after "catching" the head, then tenkan? Or should I keep turning? What do you guys think?

Janet Rosen
07-14-2014, 10:29 PM
On Phi Truong's atemi love, let's us see....
...
4. On the reversing of rotation, the obvious one is the one offensive to Janet, the whiplash clothesline, which "can" be done as a rising ridgehand strike not at uke's head but just past it, which means that the actual striking surface is the other inner forearm.


Nah, I don't offend quite that easily :-)
The atemi I like in that sense is 1. snaking the hand straight up uke's center along the throat to hit under the chin with heel of hand (works well on tenshinage too...or 2. snaking hand up and running entire hand diagonally across uke's face covering eyes and nose as you turn his head. Note I DO NOT actually practice this way. Just have played with it a few times in the past and the Brooklyn budobabe likes having certain things in the tool kit :)

robin_jet_alt
07-15-2014, 01:33 AM
What about the faceplant? Well, also did that, just drop your weight while holding the head. But sadly, I can't control uke. Can't control his (expected) reaction, can't control the next move, can't control anything. I deemed that too dangerous and back to basics.



That's right. It's not possible to control uke while doing this.

Asou
07-15-2014, 05:38 AM
That's right. It's not possible to control uke while doing this.

perhaps after 50 years of practicing aikido, we can? :D

found a 46 mins instructional movie about irimi nage by hiroshi ikeda shihan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylwuJjlWYPU)

dat 360 degree footwork :eek:

robin_jet_alt
07-15-2014, 07:33 AM
I'll admit that I have only watched the first minute. I'll watch the rest tomorrow when I have time. In general, I'm a big fan of Ikeda sensei.

The thing with that kind of irimi-nage is that it is entirely dependent on uke trying to get up. If they decide to do a commando roll, for instance, you can always kick them in the head, but you won't manage a graceful irimange like Ikeda sensei demonstrates. Not even Ikeda sensei can do that. Of course, if uke gets up in the choreographed manner, then you have great control, but it will always be dependent on that.

phitruong
07-15-2014, 08:20 AM
perhaps after 50 years of practicing aikido, we can? :D

found a 46 mins instructional movie about irimi nage by hiroshi ikeda shihan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylwuJjlWYPU)

dat 360 degree footwork :eek:

that was before he blown he knees. don't remember if i see him does that anymore. his iriminage tends to be a small spiral now a day. i think he tenkan with his spleen and uke went flying. :D

btw, i have seen folks focus too much on the tenkan portion and not enough on the irimi. iriminage has no tenkan.

Cliff Judge
07-15-2014, 09:16 AM
I don't think you should worry too much about controlling uke when they are dropping towards the mat. Honestly, getting behind somebody and dumping them on their butt is a good technique. The practice then becomes, staying connected with them as they get back up, and finding the sweet spot where it is easy to throw them the second time.

I was once taught that a combative application of irimi nage was to get their body torquing one way, and their head the other - snap. That's a hard technique to practice though.

One of our head instructors, Don Moock. teaches getting uke's shoulder stacked directly over their OPPOSITE hip, with their head over the hip. He lays his arm over uke's shoulder to make the connection and unbalance, rather than grabbing the neck. It seems like you can get most ukes into this posture before they feel terribly off-balance and try to get it back.

Asou
07-15-2014, 11:09 PM
that was before he blown he knees. don't remember if i see him does that anymore. his iriminage tends to be a small spiral now a day. i think he tenkan with his spleen and uke went flying. :D

btw, i have seen folks focus too much on the tenkan portion and not enough on the irimi. iriminage has no tenkan.

I loled at the spleen hahahahaa

so tenkan
much knee
very ki pawa
such spin

what do you mean no tenkan? do you mean some kind of direct iriminage? palm open straight to the uke's face?

robin_jet_alt
07-16-2014, 12:17 AM
I loled at the spleen hahahahaa

so tenkan
much knee
very ki pawa
such spin

what do you mean no tenkan? do you mean some kind of direct iriminage? palm open straight to the uke's face?

You can do no tenkan for a completely direct iriminage, or you can do a partial tenkan like in the video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETEXGiQcTEA

To me, this video shows all the important aspects of iriminage. Everything else is just fluff.

kewms
07-16-2014, 12:57 AM
Irimi nage means "entering throw." No tenkan required.

There are a number of different tenkan-free variations. Two that I like are:

* Take balance on the entry, go directly to the finishing move.

OR

* Enter as normal, then step to uke's omote side, leading his attacking hand across the front of his body. In this variation, he turns in the opposite direction from a "normal" irimi nage.

Both of these versions are fairly direct, and may be more convincing to the "aikido doesn't work" crowd.

Katherine

phitruong
07-16-2014, 06:54 AM
what do you mean no tenkan? do you mean some kind of direct iriminage? palm open straight to the uke's face?

something for you to think about. you can irimi moving forward. you can irimi moving backward. you can irimi moving in circle. there is no tenkan. "there is no spoon!". :)

hint: think of that in term of intent and energy

also, did i mention that i also like sokumen irimi nage? just going to rotate my body and put my fist where his head is going to be (got that one for Chuck Clark sensei) and let uke makes the choice of impaling on my fist or take ukemi.

Asou
07-16-2014, 07:21 AM
You can do no tenkan for a completely direct iriminage, or you can do a partial tenkan like in the video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETEXGiQcTEA

To me, this video shows all the important aspects of iriminage. Everything else is just fluff.

I like this one from her iriminage :D (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NinacudZ934)

no tenkan!

the iriminage is from 3:00 mark. She is badass :eek: the way she talks remind me of my high school teacher

but, if the opponent is shirtless (no collar) where would she grab?

Adam Huss
07-16-2014, 09:24 AM
yes, exactly what I just realized yesterday, misalign uke's head with his spine, "carry" the head with you as you make your own center of rotation.

http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag251/Asou_Sekuhara/iriminage1_zps6304876b.jpg

then, you can throw uke diagonally inside toward your center.

http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag251/Asou_Sekuhara/iriminage2_zps5e0fc90e.jpg

Lead the head, the body shall follows. Sorry for the bad drawing lol :p , just for illustration purposes.

What I'm thinking now is... What can I do to make uke more unbalanced, as in making his head and spine really misaligned/not straight? Should I make a greater circle of rotation? Shall I side step first after "catching" the head, then tenkan? Or should I keep turning? What do you guys think?

When connecting with uke, move more to the side, in a lateral movement. Uke will be more off-balance than if you just drive his head forward. Uke should basically be on his toes throughout the movement - so long as you don't stop moving or breakup the technique in segments. When uke is connected to your body, uke will move wherever you move...so you can move him as much as you want....it won't require too large a movement on your part. You should always be making uke move more than you.

Adam Huss
07-16-2014, 09:45 AM
Well, let's try this again...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWL27rWV6Xs

My first time trying to link in a youtube clip, y'all. Apologies.

If you can't see it, on youtube you can search "wasabidojo merritt complete" and it'll come up.

Can you explain a little what you want to display with this link? I apologize if you did in another post, but I couldn't find it if there is one.

thanks!

Adam Huss
07-16-2014, 09:50 AM
I like this one from her iriminage :D (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NinacudZ934)

no tenkan!

the iriminage is from 3:00 mark. She is badass :eek: the way she talks remind me of my high school teacher

but, if the opponent is shirtless (no collar) where would she grab?
Cup the neck...keep it snug to your chest or even shoulder - wherever uke ends up depending on size and momentum, so long as they are tightly attached to nage.

Janet Rosen
07-16-2014, 09:57 AM
something for you to think about. you can irimi moving forward. you can irimi moving backward. you can irimi moving in circle. there is no tenkan. "there is no spoon!". :)

hint: think of that in term of intent and energy
.

Yep. My analogy is always girl from Brooklyn finding only parking space in town across the street facing the other way and the light just turned so the oncoming traffic is approaching.....FAST U-turn and get into the space....it is a tenkan FORM but it is 100% irimi in that the car's velocity is forward and it is entering.

BTW I am also a huge fan of both sokomen iriminage and the entering version that Katherine described, which where I train is called something that sounds like "unendo" and can be done quite softly and flowing or quite martially with an atemi or cut at the face.

Adam Huss
07-16-2014, 10:15 AM
Video of direct entry variation of shomen iriminage, from Yoshinkan Kihon Waza: shomenuchi iriminage dai ichi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux85OqaN1UY

Version from a reverse punch. This one can be tricky, I don't recall if its kihon or oyo waza. If you are late, you will smash a little into uke...if your timing is good its a great technique...though my particular sensei adds a push block as you move in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKakAgRtQ1w

Not exactly thread relly, but I've always like the transition in this variation. For those that can't see, nage is throwing an atemi as they step under the arm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YimpMaLQ0IE&list=UUvQy12-u-uPZZbCqeGGtF4w

PeterR
07-16-2014, 10:29 AM
And then we have

http://vimeo.com/100639239

Asou
07-16-2014, 10:32 AM
Cup the neck...keep it snug to your chest or even shoulder - wherever uke ends up depending on size and momentum, so long as they are tightly attached to nage.

she took the collar from quite a distance from the initial irimi yeah? The result is a very unbalanced uke. Talk about crooked spine! From there, no need to tenkan, just raise the hand and cut forward and BAM! check mat!

I gotta say, she got her own style. Just like Tissier shihan. Now, I wonder whether we have her doing this in fast motion (not instructional). Because I kinda think it's hard to catch the neck/head in that initial distance. You need a long hand to catch that and snug 'em to the shoulder.

mathewjgano
07-16-2014, 10:48 AM
she took the collar from quite a distance from the initial irimi yeah? The result is a very unbalanced uke. Talk about crooked spine! From there, no need to tenkan, just raise the hand and cut forward and BAM! check mat!

I gotta say, she got her own style. Just like Tissier shihan. Now, I wonder whether we have her doing this in fast motion (not instructional). Because I kinda think it's hard to catch the neck/head in that initial distance. You need a long hand to catch that and snug 'em to the shoulder.

I'm not familiar with Hendricks Sensei's methodology, but I think I can also see one point where she rests her hand on the junction between the neck and shoulder before grabbing (Aikido Journal video @2:03?); it looked like it could easily go into how I've been taught to control the upper spine, by gathering/controlling a chunk of the sternocleidomastoid in the neck, and drawing it to the body (more of a cut or a fishhook than a grab).

Demetrio Cereijo
07-16-2014, 11:09 AM
I gotta say, she got her own style.

Hendricks Sensei is doing textbook Iwama style.

http://youtu.be/b3JtD6KRMZ0?t=5m51s

Adam Huss
07-16-2014, 01:08 PM
she took the collar from quite a distance from the initial irimi yeah? The result is a very unbalanced uke. Talk about crooked spine! From there, no need to tenkan, just raise the hand and cut forward and BAM! check mat!

I gotta say, she got her own style. Just like Tissier shihan. Now, I wonder whether we have her doing this in fast motion (not instructional). Because I kinda think it's hard to catch the neck/head in that initial distance. You need a long hand to catch that and snug 'em to the shoulder.

I'm not sure if I catch your exact meaning, but I think I do. I would invite you to experiment with moving your whole body in close to Uke. This will give you that range and take you out of the effective range of Uke's attack.

mathewjgano
07-16-2014, 01:57 PM
Sorry, I posted the wrong quote. I meant to respond to the idea of what Hendricks Sensei might do if there was no collar.
...but, if the opponent is shirtless (no collar) where would she grab?

JP3
07-16-2014, 06:01 PM
Can you explain a little what you want to display with this link? I apologize if you did in another post, but I couldn't find it if there is one.

thanks!

Adam, my student in the clip is demonstrating the Merritt Stevens SD system, and there's a practically-applied iriminage in it a technique #5 with the spine-locking finish witht he crumple throw there. I was talking about the difference in "nice" kata technique where one throws a compliant uke "to the horizon" allowing for clean, easy ukemi, and what is more likely to happen with a non-compliant dude trying to do bad things. And... I was quite tired from work when I was posting it and it seemed perfectly appropriate to the thread at the time.

Adam Huss
07-16-2014, 09:52 PM
Ok thanks for the explanation. Makes sense.

Last time I ran aikido class we worked on techniques from sparring. Interestingly it seemed I tended to find myself doing iriminage variations.

robin_jet_alt
07-16-2014, 10:50 PM
she took the collar from quite a distance from the initial irimi yeah? The result is a very unbalanced uke. Talk about crooked spine! From there, no need to tenkan, just raise the hand and cut forward and BAM! check mat!

I gotta say, she got her own style. Just like Tissier shihan. Now, I wonder whether we have her doing this in fast motion (not instructional). Because I kinda think it's hard to catch the neck/head in that initial distance. You need a long hand to catch that and snug 'em to the shoulder.

As Demetrio says, it is textbook Iwama style.

Anyway, the distance is not as great as it looks. When doing this, whether you grab the collar, the shoulder, or the neck, the trick is to rest your forearm along uke's spine. If your elbow is up, you are in trouble.

Asou
07-17-2014, 03:09 AM
As Demetrio says, it is textbook Iwama style.

Anyway, the distance is not as great as it looks. When doing this, whether you grab the collar, the shoulder, or the neck, the trick is to rest your forearm along uke's spine. If your elbow is up, you are in trouble.
At first I want to ask why should the fore arm rest along uke's spine, but watching the clip, I understand. Haha, you find many things within this one technique. Many ways to throw, many ways to unbalance. It's new things everyday for me ;)

I don't like grabbing collar, it's something that's not always readily available in many situations.

How to make the throw into a more spectacular high fall? Just like my avatar? :p
Do i have to always cut to the corner of the footing of uke where they have no leg?

jonreading
07-17-2014, 07:09 AM
I originally learned irimi nage by not allowing uke to rotate into nage. This resulted in the "backward throw" that somewhat resembles the clothesline throw from WWF (or WWE, or whatever). It is not difficult to imagine stacking our partner's feet over their head and going back-of-the-neck into the ground while stacked. It was spectacular if uke was prepared to prevent her feet from stacking (because uke spun around nage's arm like a cartoon, feet flying and everything). But it is a very uncomfortable throw otherwise.

Here is a a sample from Shioda Sensei. Check out the 1:15-1:25ish mark for some irimi nages:
http://youtu.be/kj0TgZTs2cg
I understand that these were not comfortable ukemi. Shioda sensei's irimi nage is also a good look at what the throw looks like when you reduce the "up/down" that we see exaggerated in other demonstrations. They tend to look more like a Hulk hand slam...

Then came along the variation that allows uke to rotate into nage and around the hip (or pelvis), which I believe to be at least a little safer, if not more comfortable. The change in rotation point gives you some ability for a little more "umpf" without necessarily throwing uke on her neck.

Diagonal movement using the imagery of corners is pretty common instruction in training for kata. Understanding that at some point, yes, you should transcend the need for those "mechanics". The gi grab should not be the technique, but rather to control uke during the technique ( I believe due to the exaggerated movement) - it's more as a courtesy for uke...

kewms
07-17-2014, 09:28 AM
How to make the throw into a more spectacular high fall? Just like my avatar? :p
Do i have to always cut to the corner of the footing of uke where they have no leg?

For most spectacular falls, uke has to help. Not that they have to give you the throw, but they have to come in with a lot of energy, be willing to go with the flow of whatever you're doing, and be confident enough in their own ability to not hold back out of fear.

The footwork for the irimi nage omote variation I mentioned up above is a little different, but otherwise yes, you need to cut the "missing" leg.

Katherine

Asou
07-18-2014, 07:45 AM
another 5 minutes clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djh7ju1VVq4) by Ryuji Shirakawa Sensei

Beautiful, just beautiful. I can watch this all day. This is tissier's like, right? Hombu's Irimi nage. Sometimes he's smiling too while doing that? Happy? lol

well, the principles of irimi nage is (after 3 pages):
corners where no foot, misalign the spine, grab the head/neck/shoulder and the body shall follow, cut in spiral/forward, cut to where's no foot in the corner etc (add yourselves)

I originally learned irimi nage by not allowing uke to rotate into nage. This resulted in the "backward throw" that somewhat resembles the clothesline throw from WWF (or WWE, or whatever). It is not difficult to imagine stacking our partner's feet over their head and going back-of-the-neck into the ground while stacked. It was spectacular if uke was prepared to prevent her feet from stacking (because uke spun around nage's arm like a cartoon, feet flying and everything). But it is a very uncomfortable throw otherwise.

Here is a a sample from Shioda Sensei. Check out the 1:15-1:25ish mark for some irimi nages:
http://youtu.be/kj0TgZTs2cg
I understand that these were not comfortable ukemi. Shioda sensei's irimi nage is also a good look at what the throw looks like when you reduce the "up/down" that we see exaggerated in other demonstrations. They tend to look more like a Hulk hand slam...

Then came along the variation that allows uke to rotate into nage and around the hip (or pelvis), which I believe to be at least a little safer, if not more comfortable. The change in rotation point gives you some ability for a little more "umpf" without necessarily throwing uke on her neck.

Diagonal movement using the imagery of corners is pretty common instruction in training for kata. Understanding that at some point, yes, you should transcend the need for those "mechanics". The gi grab should not be the technique, but rather to control uke during the technique ( I believe due to the exaggerated movement) - it's more as a courtesy for uke...

Gozo Shioda is godlike. A monster. Yoshinkan is "rough" and mechanized, but for people who have no clue what is aikido, their way of studying is very good. Almost all of the people from Yoshinkan that I met have a very good center and know how to use it naturally even though they learned it "mechanically". Heck, if I am confused about a technique, I consult the yoshinkan's, they have a clear instructions that can shed some lights on a technique.

Yoshinkan's iriminage is rough, but yes, it's a balance buster, maybe not beautiful, but it gets the job done. They usually cut diagonally outward to uke's outer 45 degree, while aikikai's cut diagonally inward to nage's inside 45 degree.

Cliff Judge
07-18-2014, 08:08 AM
another 5 minutes clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djh7ju1VVq4) by Ryuji Shirakawa Sensei

Beautiful, just beautiful. I can watch this all day. This is tissier's like, right? Hombu's Irimi nage. Sometimes he's smiling too while doing that? Happy? lol



I think it really needs to be pointed out that this guy has some very cooperative ukes.

sakumeikan
07-18-2014, 11:38 AM
I think it really needs to be pointed out that this guy has some very cooperative ukes.

Dear Cliff,
An understatement if ever I read one.Cheers, Joe

Asou
07-19-2014, 09:14 AM
When I saw that clip again, he grabbed the side of neck and the upper arm of uke, then just kaiten around, hence, producing the trademarked "faceplant", then waiting for uke to recover then step forward then cut to the corners where no footings are present.

Sounds so simple, maybe I will try this next time in dojo. I think to make uke make an extra step to our hip, we need to step forward or backward (3:26).

But I think, ultimately, the uke at least must know the "choreography", that is: to keep running forward, nage will lead uke in circle and throw.

Dear Cliff,
An understatement if ever I read one.Cheers, Joe

Why? what do you think?

Janet Rosen
07-19-2014, 02:03 PM
But I think, ultimately, the uke at least must know the "choreography", that is: to keep running forward, nage will lead uke in circle and throw.


Well, I don't necessarily agree that uke's role is to "keep running forward" - not unless there is a logical reason to do so, as in, 1) it will continue an actual attack on nage's center or 2) nage provides no other choice because uke's structure is already fully dependent upon the connection to nage's arm and he will fall down if that support is removed.
In my view, uke DOES need to learn to follow where nage is leading in the sense of body awareness, overcoming the tendency many of us have as beginners not so much to oppose as to root because we don't know what else to do....
But to default to choreography, rather than learning to stay connected, can be taken to ridiculous lengths...as I've described before, for instance, an uke who grabbed my arm as the opening attack for a form of iriminage, and starts running in a circle around me before I have moved a muscle; he would have run in circles around me all day like a pony around a mill, because "uke is supposed to run forward" ....like the uke who knows you are supposed to do ikkyo and turns his back on you immediately after attacking....from a martial point of view, absurd, and it teaches neither uke nor nage anything meaningful.

robin_jet_alt
07-19-2014, 03:56 PM
Well, I don't necessarily agree that uke's role is to "keep running forward" - not unless there is a logical reason to do so, as in, 1) it will continue an actual attack on nage's center or 2) nage provides no other choice because uke's structure is already fully dependent upon the connection to nage's arm and he will fall down if that support is removed.
In my view, uke DOES need to learn to follow where nage is leading in the sense of body awareness, overcoming the tendency many of us have as beginners not so much to oppose as to root because we don't know what else to do....
But to default to choreography, rather than learning to stay connected, can be taken to ridiculous lengths...as I've described before, for instance, an uke who grabbed my arm as the opening attack for a form of iriminage, and starts running in a circle around me before I have moved a muscle; he would have run in circles around me all day like a pony around a mill, because "uke is supposed to run forward" ....like the uke who knows you are supposed to do ikkyo and turns his back on you immediately after attacking....from a martial point of view, absurd, and it teaches neither uke nor nage anything meaningful.

Somebody actually did that to me once. It is soooo annoying.

Janet Rosen
07-19-2014, 04:25 PM
Somebody actually did that to me once. It is soooo annoying.

It actually made me laugh out loud....but yeah....:)

sakumeikan
07-20-2014, 05:12 AM
When I saw that clip again, he grabbed the side of neck and the upper arm of uke, then just kaiten around, hence, producing the trademarked "faceplant", then waiting for uke to recover then step forward then cut to the corners where no footings are present.

Sounds so simple, maybe I will try this next time in dojo. I think to make uke make an extra step to our hip, we need to step forward or backward (3:26).

But I think, ultimately, the uke at least must know the "choreography", that is: to keep running forward, nage will lead uke in circle and throw.

Why? what do you think?

Dear Konstantinus,
Generally speaking most instructors select their uke who have acted as uke for a long time.Tori gets to know how uke will respond and uke almost like a conditioned reflex will move around tori[in the rotational method of irimi nage ] almost like clockwork.Uke also usually being a junior hardly wants the senior to look bad or to make the irimi nage hard work for tori.
I have on many occasions often been in situations whereby uke sometimes falls down without
any reason.Uke should not simply bite the dust .Uke should endeavour to try and regain/maintain his /her posture throughout the movement.As it happens I am not too fond of the irimi /tenkan method of irimi nage.The irimi tenkan version looks good[tori leading /spinning the uke around followed by a high flyying ukemi from uke ] but I much prefer a simpler more direct irimi nage than usual demoed by certain instructors.Hence my earlier statement about compliant uke.`i have a lot of footage of the basic taisabaki used in irimi nage and the irimi nage itself, however I do noot know how to upload this material to this forum. Cheers , joe.

PeterR
07-20-2014, 06:28 AM
I always found the ura version (which is what we are talking about here) was easier to perform if uke was doing his best to recover. Looks better, feels better - makes a better show.

sakumeikan
07-20-2014, 07:11 AM
I always found the ura version (which is what we are talking about here) was easier to perform if uke was doing his best to recover. Looks better, feels better - makes a better show.
Dear Peter,
Surely the criteria should be whether the irimi nage is proficient andc onforms to aiki principles rather than whether it looks good, feels better[for uke /tori?and a better? show etc?cheers, Joe,

PeterR
07-20-2014, 07:18 AM
Dear Peter,
Surely the criteria should be whether the irimi nage is proficient andc onforms to aiki principles rather than whether it looks good, feels better[for uke /tori?and a better? show etc?cheers, Joe,

Of course - I was merely commenting on how an overly compliant uke (ie. the fall down type) is ultimately self defeating (that may be a pun). You did mention "look" in your post.

By the way I also agree that a more direct irimi nage is ultimately more satisfying all round.

Asou
07-20-2014, 10:26 AM
found some pics when typing iriminage in google image search :D (obviously not my pics)

http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag251/Asou_Sekuhara/7893720_f520_zps295b55bd.jpg
http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag251/Asou_Sekuhara/pfiriminage_zps81ca7fe5.jpg

the second pic, 4th step "kaiten" I don't know there's that step. Is it common? I think it's for forcing uke to take additional step as his head is "carried" from a body rotation of nage?

Dear Konstantinus,
Generally speaking most instructors select their uke who have acted as uke for a long time.Tori gets to know how uke will respond and uke almost like a conditioned reflex will move around tori[in the rotational method of irimi nage ] almost like clockwork.Uke also usually being a junior hardly wants the senior to look bad or to make the irimi nage hard work for tori.
I have on many occasions often been in situations whereby uke sometimes falls down without
any reason.Uke should not simply bite the dust .Uke should endeavour to try and regain/maintain his /her posture throughout the movement.As it happens I am not too fond of the irimi /tenkan method of irimi nage.The irimi tenkan version looks good[tori leading /spinning the uke around followed by a high flyying ukemi from uke ] but I much prefer a simpler more direct irimi nage than usual demoed by certain instructors.Hence my earlier statement about compliant uke.`i have a lot of footage of the basic taisabaki used in irimi nage and the irimi nage itself, however I do noot know how to upload this material to this forum. Cheers , joe.

Dear Joe,
One of my senpai asked my sensei that also, because my senpai is very rigid and always put up quite a resistance when acting as uke. My sensei explained that aikido, is way of harmony, so during training, the uke should not give a level of resistance to a point of nage can't take uke's balance at all (also because this senpai knowing the concept of particular technique already, hence he know how to not his balance be taken). Uke and nage should be cooperative to train the flow of ki and mushin (mind of no mind). Well, regarding other techniques (shihonage, ikkyo, nikkyo, etc) you can get pretty much the same result even to a newbie. But regarding the ura iriminage/with faceplant, now that's hard to execute, and if we apply it to newbie, that's dangerous totally and maybe can make you look like a fool. So yeah, maybe our class is divided for those who believes in the choreography and those who don't. But personally, I think you have to know what aiki principles can be applied to what judging from this "ki" stuff (I myself can't feel it (yet)), and the movement of opponents. Not like, "I want to iriminage him no matter what!".

Because it's funny, you throw people elegantly left and right, all of them black belts, then suddenly, one white belt comes along in randori and you look like "???!!?" because uke doesn't take the correct step lol. I don't know, what about people in your dojo?

about the video, maybe you can try posting it on youtube if you don't mind? Then post the link here for us to see. Cheers!

phitruong
07-20-2014, 12:48 PM
One of my senpai asked my sensei that also, because my senpai is very rigid and always put up quite a resistance when acting as uke. My sensei explained that aikido, is way of harmony, so during training, the uke should not give a level of resistance to a point of nage can't take uke's balance at all (also because this senpai knowing the concept of particular technique already, hence he know how to not his balance be taken).

Because it's funny, you throw people elegantly left and right, all of them black belts, then suddenly, one white belt comes along in randori and you look like "???!!?" because uke doesn't take the correct step lol. I don't know, what about people in your dojo?


a few issues would like to point out. being sempai, assuming your skill is higher than the others, meaning you are in a teaching position when you are uke. the good way to train those lower than you in skills is to give them just enough resistance for them to work "through" the puzzle, but not to the point of completely frustrated which accomplished little other than raising frustration level and make you look like an ass. then there is resistance and there is stupidity. being stiff and turning your back on someone that can inflict harm on you from behind is stupid. something to think about, when someone is in your dead corner, what are your options? one of the options will get uke into the "face plant" situation, other options will not.

one of my sensei told me that you need to question everything, every assumption, every assertion, even past experiences, even from experts. asking why and figuring out the answers. don't just blindly copy things. you have to think about these stuffs.

Asou
07-22-2014, 06:46 AM
When do you guys rise your hand to prepare for the throw in ura? While spinning? or while moving forward to throw? If I want to make my uke go lower, How do I lower my center? By bending my knee? Or drop my shoulders?

a few issues would like to point out. being sempai, assuming your skill is higher than the others, meaning you are in a teaching position when you are uke. the good way to train those lower than you in skills is to give them just enough resistance for them to work "through" the puzzle, but not to the point of completely frustrated which accomplished little other than raising frustration level and make you look like an ass. then there is resistance and there is stupidity. being stiff and turning your back on someone that can inflict harm on you from behind is stupid. something to think about, when someone is in your dead corner, what are your options? one of the options will get uke into the "face plant" situation, other options will not.

one of my sensei told me that you need to question everything, every assumption, every assertion, even past experiences, even from experts. asking why and figuring out the answers. don't just blindly copy things. you have to think about these stuffs.

I wish everyone knows this. Maybe my dojo is McDojo.

Janet Rosen
07-22-2014, 09:34 AM
When do you guys rise your hand to prepare for the throw in ura? While spinning? or while moving forward to throw? If I want to make my uke go lower, How do I lower my center? By bending my knee? Or drop my shoulders?
.

Hint: your shoulders should always be "dropped" from the moment you bow in, so that you cannot further "drop" them.

Hint number2: People will say "bend your knees" but really it is dropping your center by opening and relaxing your hip/groin and not even thinking about how the knees work in response to that.

Adam Huss
07-22-2014, 10:38 AM
When do you guys rise your hand to prepare for the throw in ura? While spinning? or while moving forward to throw? If I want to make my uke go lower, How do I lower my center? By bending my knee? Or drop my shoulders?

I wish everyone knows this. Maybe my dojo is McDojo.

Prior to moving forward in the throw. You want to steal uke's balance before trying to throw them, in every technique.

Some people advocate bending the knee. If that works for them, great. You'll never catch me doing that on purpose, as I'm an advocate of not compromising my posture and balance (unless its like a shikodachi type stance). I lower myself by lengthening my stance while keeping upright and centered.

As said, your shoulders should not be 'up' in aikido. Dropping your shoulders can be very tough. Having a seasoned senpai watch over you, and paying attention in mirrors helps.

My basic iriminage is;
-intercept and offbalance uke (uke snugly attached to my body)
-initiate and finish arm movement before uke can regain balance from initial interception - arm finishes around chest level, uke is completely off-balance (katameru)
-while maintaining uke in your center, C-step past uke's centerline then around to the far corner, while cutting arm the rest of the way down to direct where uke falls.
-In this version Iriminage is, in its basic form, a throw done with nage's whole body, not just their arm.

Asou
07-23-2014, 09:39 AM
judging from today's training, well, I think my dojo need to train more on ukemi and breakfalls. Every nook and cranny of it. Everything.So many healthy shodans (no condition) still afraid of doing breakfalls. Still stiff, still not flowing. I don't think we can improve more if we don't do something about learning to take ukemi.

phitruong
07-24-2014, 12:19 PM
When do you guys rise your hand to prepare for the throw in ura? While spinning? or while moving forward to throw? If I want to make my uke go lower, How do I lower my center? By bending my knee? Or drop my shoulders?


my hands/arms don't go down. something to consider: it's easy to throw someone down when they are up, than throw them up, when they are down. i don't like the "face plant" approach, because if you run into someone who know how to wrestle/judo/bjj and so on, they will likely drop and go for your legs. i don't want to give them that opening. if you run into a bagua person, you are history too. but then again, if you run into bagua folks, they probably eat you alive. capoera will kick you in the head while they are down. too many openings in the "face plant" approach. i prefer my uke up on their toes the whole time until i drop him/her/it at the end.

Janet Rosen
07-24-2014, 04:24 PM
my hands/arms don't go down. something to consider: it's easy to throw someone down when they are up... i prefer my uke up on their toes the whole time until i drop him/her/it at the end.

:)

Asou
07-25-2014, 06:59 PM
Prior to moving forward in the throw. You want to steal uke's balance before trying to throw them, in every technique.

Some people advocate bending the knee. If that works for them, great. You'll never catch me doing that on purpose, as I'm an advocate of not compromising my posture and balance (unless its like a shikodachi type stance). I lower myself by lengthening my stance while keeping upright and centered.

As said, your shoulders should not be 'up' in aikido. Dropping your shoulders can be very tough. Having a seasoned senpai watch over you, and paying attention in mirrors helps.

My basic iriminage is;
-intercept and offbalance uke (uke snugly attached to my body)
-initiate and finish arm movement before uke can regain balance from initial interception - arm finishes around chest level, uke is completely off-balance (katameru)
-while maintaining uke in your center, C-step past uke's centerline then around to the far corner, while cutting arm the rest of the way down to direct where uke falls.
-In this version Iriminage is, in its basic form, a throw done with nage's whole body, not just their arm.

I like your fundamentals, especially not losing own's balance. Thank you for the step-by-step basics. I can imagine that. Nice C-steps!

So, where is your position when taking uke's head? 45 degree behind uke? Or on uke's side?

Hint: your shoulders should always be "dropped" from the moment you bow in, so that you cannot further "drop" them.

Hint number2: People will say "bend your knees" but really it is dropping your center by opening and relaxing your hip/groin and not even thinking about how the knees work in response to that.

do you mean like moving forward in a big step? Because when we do that, our center is lowered slightly then raised up while not compromising own's balance.

my hands/arms don't go down. something to consider: it's easy to throw someone down when they are up, than throw them up, when they are down. i don't like the "face plant" approach, because if you run into someone who know how to wrestle/judo/bjj and so on, they will likely drop and go for your legs. i don't want to give them that opening. if you run into a bagua person, you are history too. but then again, if you run into bagua folks, they probably eat you alive. capoera will kick you in the head while they are down. too many openings in the "face plant" approach. i prefer my uke up on their toes the whole time until i drop him/her/it at the end.

but if you can snug your biceps below their chin, you can almost always raise them up by raising your arm. What I mean is, maybe not too low like a faceplant. Just lower it (after a nice snug to the bicep) then up, like a wave, then drop your weight forward.

robin_jet_alt
07-25-2014, 07:45 PM
It's so frustrating trying to describe this stuff online. Are you ever in Australia? Let me know if you are and let's see if we can do some training together.

Asou
07-25-2014, 08:32 PM
It's so frustrating trying to describe this stuff online. Are you ever in Australia? Let me know if you are and let's see if we can do some training together.

hahaha, exactly my friend :D :D . thanks for the good intention. I'd like to visit queensland or brisbane if I have the time. I heard there are many yoshinkan dojos in australia? Is Morihiro Saito Shihan in Australia and from yoshinkan?

robin_jet_alt
07-25-2014, 08:53 PM
hahaha, exactly my friend :D :D . thanks for the good intention. I'd like to visit queensland or brisbane if I have the time. I heard there are many yoshinkan dojos in australia? Is Morihiro Saito Shihan in Australia and from yoshinkan?

Morihiro Saito passed away about 10 years ago, and he did not practice Yoshinkan. You might be thinking of Michiharu Mori, who teaches Yoshinkan in Queensland. I think one of the students at our dojo used to train with him.

Adam Huss
07-25-2014, 09:19 PM
I like your fundamentals, especially not losing own's balance. Thank you for the step-by-step basics. I can imagine that. Nice C-steps!

So, where is your position when taking uke's head? 45 degree behind uke? Or on uke's side?


I'm not exactly sure, it really is different depending on how uke is coming in.

I tend to be more on the side or just behind, like you suggest. But I've even been in front sometimes. So long as uke's balance is compromised and I have their center, I'm happy.

Asou
07-25-2014, 09:24 PM
Morihiro Saito passed away about 10 years ago, and he did not practice Yoshinkan. You might be thinking of Michiharu Mori, who teaches Yoshinkan in Queensland. I think one of the students at our dojo used to train with him.

oh right, you are correct! My bad! Because I know only the surname "Mori Shihan" and only that name comes to mind. Sometimes I'm thinking of going abroad to practice. Seeing the other countries way of aikido training. What's that gonna be called? Aikido tourism? Heheh.
Maybe one-two weeks everyday?

I'm not exactly sure, it really is different depending on how uke is coming in.

I tend to be more on the side or just behind, like you suggest. But I've even been in front sometimes. So long as uke's balance is compromised and I have their center, I'm happy.

right at the basic principles.:cool:

All of you can tobi ukemi? And feather falls?

Adam Huss
08-13-2014, 08:45 AM
oh right, you are correct! My bad! Because I know only the surname "Mori Shihan" and only that name comes to mind. Sometimes I'm thinking of going abroad to practice. Seeing the other countries way of aikido training. What's that gonna be called? Aikido tourism? Heheh.
Maybe one-two weeks everyday?

right at the basic principles.:cool:

All of you can tobi ukemi? And feather falls?

Not sure on what you mean with that last question. Tobi = jump, so I am guessing you are asking if people can do a soft jump break fall? I land softly from those falls, but the way I do iriminage doesn't allow for a jump break fall to make much sense, or be possible, out of it. I don't throw someone until their head is well behind their hips - which would make tobi ukemi not a good idea unless I changed use's orientation as I threw.

Asou
08-28-2014, 08:21 PM
guys, where do you usually cut? Are you looking for the throat/neck when cutting with iriminage? You put your biceps in the throat, then raise it, and drop forward?

well, because last night some small guy said iriminage is clearly a technique to be used in such disadvantageous position for a small guy like him

Janet Rosen
08-28-2014, 09:51 PM
guys, where do you usually cut? Are you looking for the throat/neck when cutting with iriminage? You put your biceps in the throat, then raise it, and drop forward?

well, because last night some small guy said iriminage is clearly a technique to be used in such disadvantageous position for a small guy like him

None of the above. after his center has passed mine, I either do a kokyu wave coming up uke's front and breaking over/behind his head or I come straight up his center line with my hand. Relative heights of no consequence because if I haven't brought uke to my level well before this then there is no finish.
Then again, I'm not a guys :)

kewms
08-28-2014, 11:43 PM
guys, where do you usually cut? Are you looking for the throat/neck when cutting with iriminage? You put your biceps in the throat, then raise it, and drop forward?

well, because last night some small guy said iriminage is clearly a technique to be used in such disadvantageous position for a small guy like him

Which cut? Irimi nage contains as many as three, depending on the variation.

Why would I want my bicep anywhere near uke's throat?

I'm shorter than most of my training partners. If I'm going to do irimi nage, ideally the initial turn will bring his head down to the level of my chest or lower. If I manage that, why on earth would I want to raise him back up?

Katherine

robin_jet_alt
08-29-2014, 12:54 AM
guys, where do you usually cut? Are you looking for the throat/neck when cutting with iriminage? You put your biceps in the throat, then raise it, and drop forward?

well, because last night some small guy said iriminage is clearly a technique to be used in such disadvantageous position for a small guy like him

What both Katherine and Janet said is absolutely correct.

Just to add to that, if you are talking about the last cut, which I assume you are, then I cut an imaginary space beyond where uke is standing.

Asou
09-11-2014, 08:01 PM
It's impossible to move people in a static and balanced position. I think the initial rotation is generated by the attacker when the nage move inside to the attacker as a response. From then, nage simply grab the head/neck,collar, whatever, to secure the rotation, unbalance attacker, and cut down

oh well

the more I study irimi nage, the less I understand

I'm lost

But that does not mean I'm giving up on this technique

robin_jet_alt
09-11-2014, 08:49 PM
Nope. That's what I thought for the first 8 or 9 years of my Aikido study, but it's wrong.

Carsten Möllering
09-12-2014, 02:18 AM
Irimi nage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8UJBfcidfhk#t=10)

PeterR
09-12-2014, 02:42 AM
Nope. That's what I thought for the first 8 or 9 years of my Aikido study, but it's wrong.
How so?? Or more to the point balance has to be taken some how for any technique to work and someone who is static and well-balanced (even more so when his name is Mongo) makes that very difficult. Of course then he is no threat but really please expand on your point.

robin_jet_alt
09-12-2014, 03:04 AM
I believe Okamoto sensei demonstrates wonderfully in the link that Carsten posted.

PeterR
09-12-2014, 03:40 AM
I believe Okamoto sensei demonstrates wonderfully in the link that Carsten posted.

Wonderful movement, graceful but no where does it demonstrate irimi nage against a static well balanced uke. Perhaps by well-balance I mean someone who does not wish their balance taken which was not the case here - there was a clear uke/nage dynamic.

robin_jet_alt
09-12-2014, 04:02 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETEXGiQcTEA

Best I can do...

PeterR
09-12-2014, 04:29 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETEXGiQcTEA

Best I can do...

That video tells me that perhaps we are talking cross-purposes - it demonstrates much more clearly what your are talking about and allows me to clarify my point.

Pat - in my view - clearly takes uke's balance before applying iriminage. You may be seeing one technique but I see a beautiful rendition of Shodokan dogma. Kuzushi proceeds technique. In this case kuzushi is applied through ushiro-ate and irimi nage is applied to an unbalanced uke.

To add fuel to the fire - uke being static is a disadvantage. I would say that a well balanced uke is even harder to throw if he is allowed to move.

phitruong
09-12-2014, 05:30 AM
It's impossible to move people in a static and balanced position. I think the initial rotation is generated by the attacker when the nage move inside to the attacker as a response. From then, nage simply grab the head/neck,collar, whatever, to secure the rotation, unbalance attacker, and cut down


not impossible or even difficult, since most human that i know of have only two legs, not 4. something for you to think through: does a 4 legged chair more stable than 2 legged chair? hint: ask someone to stand in the most stable stand, walk around the person, then ask yourself, in which directions when you apply power would that person has the most difficult time to keep balance?

lbb
09-12-2014, 08:37 AM
Irimi nage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8UJBfcidfhk#t=10)

Niiiiice.

kewms
09-12-2014, 09:33 AM
It's impossible to move people in a static and balanced position. I think the initial rotation is generated by the attacker when the nage move inside to the attacker as a response. From then, nage simply grab the head/neck,collar, whatever, to secure the rotation, unbalance attacker, and cut down


I think grabbing the collar is going to be remarkably ineffective against a competent attacker who has some idea how to keep his balance.

You are correct that you need to disrupt his balance, but grabbing the collar is not a great way to accomplish it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FukKoRaf5KA

Katherine

Carsten Möllering
09-12-2014, 09:43 AM
For us grabbing the collar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqv99SaivhA&feature=player_detailpage#t=13) is kihon waza.

Asou
01-22-2015, 07:53 PM
Hi guys.

So, after a few months troubleshooting, we have been learning how to take the fall first, then we start doing iriminage with ukemi.

I gotta admit iriminage with this kind of breakfall becomes 100% more interesting for the class.

we do these ukemi exercises:

this (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DYL_hx8J4HjY&ei=47XBVOn8AsPFmAXat4HIBA&usg=AFQjCNEvGzlvKB6mvttdiraKMmr4Zf2SVw&sig2=Pz-OwAm2ApStr0fzosRP1g), this (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCMQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DTMtW3zilEXY&ei=47XBVOn8AsPFmAXat4HIBA&usg=AFQjCNELlTPWixy3ziEmgv22FDSKqEg2ig&sig2=hJoX8p3eNIyCpXOpr0ISOg), and this (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DjHEm1FVX9mo&ei=LrbBVKa1A4OgmQWtl4GgBw&usg=AFQjCNF0uOthcsvj2nslJU7sBJed1kqH3g&sig2=D8YEP7dtZ7WZgMrVRvfBgw). Oh and also this (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Db5U2E0kA8_8&ei=qbbBVKPpIsPTmAWk2ILYCg&usg=AFQjCNENdYmR7umDuhJRM8tMHWZlrSCAog&sig2=grQ8yoRFPV8jX9nL7O9S_A)

Well, we are now gearing towards silent breakfall instead of the noisy one haha. We're intrigued by the soft fall. So silent and it has certain appealing characteristics when you breakfall but produces no sound.

We can breakfall from kotegaeshi, kaitennage, sumi otoshi, kokyunage just fine.

Aiki otoshi has a bit of problem though because you're falling on your back. Gotta watch feather fall backfall for that.

Right now, we're just focusing on iriminage first.

Sorry, not meaning to necro-ing dead thread, but I just realize aikido is two way and uke and nage is like two side of the same coin. To achieve beauty in aikido movement, uke first have to learn how to take the fall.

Well... where will you be when epiphany hits haha. It's been there all the time. Someone said somewhere aikido is 50% ukemi.

Carsten Möllering
01-23-2015, 01:09 AM
I highly recommend the DVD of Jan Nevelius and Frank Ostoff: "Uke Training in Aikido" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ15XY39KlY).

kewms
01-23-2015, 09:55 AM
Sorry, not meaning to necro-ing dead thread, but I just realize aikido is two way and uke and nage is like two side of the same coin. To achieve beauty in aikido movement, uke first have to learn how to take the fall.

Well... where will you be when epiphany hits haha. It's been there all the time. Someone said somewhere aikido is 50% ukemi.

Well, yes. You spend half your time taking ukemi. Why would you want to train something other than aikido during that time?

However, "good" ukemi is about a lot more than taking pretty falls. If there is no attack, pretty much any technique works.

Katherine

Asou
01-24-2015, 08:54 AM
I highly recommend the DVD of Jan Nevelius and Frank Ostoff: "Uke Training in Aikido" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ15XY39KlY).

dear Carsten,

any idea how to get this?

Carsten Möllering
01-24-2015, 09:30 AM
Try to contact Jan:
jan@nevelius.se

Cromwell
07-17-2016, 04:40 PM
Hi,

Irimi is to enter straight into a technique or situation. I know it sounds like a given, but one needs to go behind to truly execute the concept or technique.

Here is comparison post on Irimi Nage performed by differently Sensei and masters. http://goodaikido.com/irimi-nage-enter-and-throw/

Personally in Irimi I don't lead Uke to ground before returning for the Nage (throw) part. I also prefer grabbing the back collar in the dojo. If you train this on the mat, it will be natural to grab hair or clothing later on, when you need it for self defence.

Also Irimi may not need the Nage (throw) part when you position behind and really capture their balance and put it on there back. One can literally hold uke's back collar and control them. When controlled from the back you can unleash whatever atemi or coat hanger you want.

Cynrod
07-18-2016, 10:46 AM
Okamoto Shihan's Iriminage is one of the best that I've seen so far. Well, every technique that Okamoto does are all excellent anyway.

Https://youtu.be/Tv7BTKQzn50

From 0.6 seconds of this video is the Iriminage

JP3
07-23-2016, 05:34 PM
Since I've got arms more akin to a gibbon than a typical homo sapiens my own iriminage has no actual "hold" with the hands on anything of uke.

Review Janet's entry thoughts on her iriminage and that's the same as mine, though my arms typically extend past uke's head and I end up with a down-push witht he arm-hand going around uke's shoulder/neck/head, the other arm with a gatame on the uke's previously-attacking hand-arm. Moving with uke into the joint circle point, and turn, rotating them on the outside of the circle into the hole where they don't have a foot to stop from falling (unless/until they put one there) which is the kuzushi.

If they don't react and try to catch themselves, fix their posture which I've now broken and stand, they go face first, it's that simple. Knowing this, you can feel when they are recovering the posture, so you keep close to them, in their back pocket so to speak, and when the recovery is starting, you start your reversal of the circle movement.

For my non-orangutan students, I have them experiment, as I did, with several hand positions, depending on where they end up on entry. But, the expression of the finish is the same (though you can either execute with a projection to the horizon, or a crushing downwards thing where they end at your feet.

rugwithlegs
07-23-2016, 07:16 PM
I don't like that Iriminage has become a "thing." I don't see this as a useful approach with so many variations out there.

For Yoshinkan Aikido, Sokumen Iriminage is what the others call Gyaku Gamae ate, or Sayunage, or Kokyunage. More than one way to do it too.

Shirata Rinjiro had a system of different types of Iriminage. Chokusen (linear) no Iriminage that seemed to break down into two groups, what some call the first atemi waza forms, and a form of Ushiro ate that extended out. En no Irimi (circular) was also done in front or behind, and so was Sankaku no Irimi (triangular). And the Sokumen Iriminage idea was also a part of it. And these are also called atemi waza or Kokyunage depending on the group.

On the cut, some schools step behind and project through uke, some wrap uke around them in a koshinage like movement, and some step straight with a tighter head lock. And Shirata had an Omote and an Ura Iriminage cut which were very different - Ura is usually called something else in some schools now as nage steps all the way behind and even around to the other side.

The head gets emphasized differently in some groups, but uke is the one moving their head and the rest of their body too. More than a rigid dedication to an idea no matter how valid for the circumstances, I keep entering.

IME, some people fall to the ground in the fetal position right by my feet in the name of "combat effectiveness." No one else outside of the dojo thinks laying their face right by my steel toes is a good battle plan, only aikido people for some reason. Can the kata be forced to change? Yes. I almost never complete Shihonage either.

Shorter people seem to turn more, or break the balance forward more. Taller people have less need to break uke even lower. But the different leads and different cuts are very useful in multiple attacker situations or in complicated terrain.

Some Iriminage are combined with other ideas - any of our controlling hand grips like Nikyo, Yonkyo, or Shihonage for instance. Sensei also asked for other combination of ideas - I'm still not clear on what Kaiten-Iriminage is, but it was on our test requirements. I train it with a juji entry.

These days I am just trying to stay open to what the full scope of what has been called Iriminage is, and how do I make any of the variations work better.

Leandro Pinto
09-12-2016, 07:05 AM
finalização com armlock:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=293733557664028&id=100010821587256