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Riai Maori
07-03-2014, 05:17 PM
On the mat the other night I was told this...Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"...WTF. (excuse me)Then as it sank in the meaning became clear. You engineer a technique in order for physic's to apply. So what happened to the Aiki?, I ponder.:)

Hellis
07-03-2014, 05:24 PM
On the mat the other night I was told this...Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"...WTF. (excuse me)Then as it sank in the meaning became clear. You engineer a technique in order for physic's to apply. So what happened to the Aiki?, I ponder.:)

They say you learn something everyday - I have been involved in Aikido for 57 years and I didn't know that, too late now.

Henry Ellis
Co-author ` Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/

kewms
07-03-2014, 05:34 PM
I guess that's as good a place to start as any. But thinking of aikido as doing something TO the other person will only take you so far.

Katherine

Riai Maori
07-03-2014, 08:48 PM
But thinking of aikido as doing something TO the other person will only take you so far.Katherine

Dear Katherine,

Could you please elaborate more precisely what part of the statement "Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's" and how it relates to the above conclusion you have come too?:confused:

Richard

crbateman
07-03-2014, 09:22 PM
There are many references in books relative to the physics of Aikido. "Aiki Secrets: Six Precepts and the Dynamic COB" is an interesting read. There is also good stuff in an e-book entitled "Injury and Skeletal Biomechanics". The 3rd chapter is titled "Using the Knowledge of Biomechanics in Teaching Aikido". You can find the e-book and chapter at http://www.intechopen.com/books/injury-and-skeletal-biomechanics/using-the-knowledge-of-biomechanics-in-teaching-aikido.

There are numerous others that are not on the top of my head at the moment, but I'll add to this post after the drugs wear off... :hypno:

kewms
07-03-2014, 11:14 PM
Dear Katherine,

Could you please elaborate more precisely what part of the statement "Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's" and how it relates to the above conclusion you have come too?:confused:

Richard

My educational background is in engineering. In my experience, it's a very mechanistic, action-reaction way of looking at the world. Which is fine, as far as it goes, I just don't find it particularly helpful as a metaphor for the things I'm working on in my aikido.

Katherine

Mario Tobias
07-04-2014, 12:14 AM
On the mat the other night I was told this...Aikido is all about "Engineering and Physic's"...WTF. (excuse me)Then as it sank in the meaning became clear. You engineer a technique in order for physic's to apply. So what happened to the Aiki?, I ponder.:)

How I simplified explaining Aikido in physics terms is through the Physics concept of Work

Work = Force X Displacement X cosine (angle between force and displacement)

You are doing maximum work if the angle is 0 or 180 (push or pull)

You are doing 0 work if the angle is 90 degrees, that is why 90 degrees has a magical meaning in aikido. I disagree with others if they choose other angles different from 90.

Cosine(angle) ranges from 0 to 1 only.

Cosine(0) = 1 (maximum)
Cosine(90)= 0 (minimum)

The comparison:

Work = the degree of resistance or non-resistance, or how an effective aikido technique is
Force = Ki (the direction of energy or attack), just simplify the body as a stickman and the lines will symbolize the direction of ki
Displacement = direction where uke will be moved or thrown
angle = angle between uke's ki and nage's ki

So my simple explanation

Nonresistance happens if you are doing 0 work. This is achievable if nage's ki engages with uke's ki at 90 degrees to each other. This to me is a very basic principle and can be seen in all aikido techniques, whether it be applied on the smallest part of the body or on the whole body.

Examples:
Aikiage, Tenchinage
In these techniques the thumb is attacked and perpendicular to the forearm in order to raise uke's elbow and shoulder

All wrist techniques - nikkyo, sankyo, gokyo, kotegaeshi - all 90 degrees

shomenuchi ikkyo omote - nage engages 90 degrees to uke's elbow
ikkyo ura - nage's arm is 90 degrees to uke's elbow all throughout the spiral

shihonage omote - nage initiates technique 90 degrees across uke

Juji nage, juji garami, hijigime, rokkyu, sumi otoshi - 90 degrees to elbow

shomenate, rippo - 90 degrees to uke's face

all koshinage - uke's body 90 degrees to nage

kotegaeshi - initiates parry 90 degrees to uke (not 180 IMHO), saito sensei also stresses this

yokomenuchi/tsuki parry - 90 degrees to uke's elbow
morotetori techniques

kaitenage omote or ura. uke's arm 90 degrees to his body

iriminage - 90 degrees to uke's spine (ki) direction to break his balance

Not surprisingly, the physics concept of power = the rate of work/time = rate of energy consumed/time. If you do 0 work, then you use 0 power, and you use 0 energy (ideally). The magic angle is 90 degrees and apply it to any of uke's joint or spine. It's that simple. I think this is also applicable to judo.

This is just a starting point though.

Riai Maori
07-04-2014, 02:46 AM
I just don't find it particularly helpful as a metaphor.

Its not a metaphor, please read the post above this. Seems very real to me.

Riai Maori
07-04-2014, 02:49 AM
How I simplified explaining Aikido in physics terms is through the Physics concept of Work

Work = Force X Displacement X cosine (angle between force and displacement)

This is just a starting point though.

Fantastic and thanks for the breakdown! As a beginner, I always start Shiho-nage at 90 degrees to uke. Stands to reason. Thanks once again, very informative.:)

Riai Maori
07-04-2014, 02:58 AM
They say you learn something everyday - I have been involved in Aikido for 57 years and I didn't know that, too late now.

Henry Ellis
Co-author ` Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/

Hello Shihan Ellis

For fear of sounding rude, are you taking the"micky" out of what I was being told? Or did you learn something today? No disrespect sir, just trying to reflect your view?

Kind regards
Richard

Demetrio Cereijo
07-04-2014, 03:08 AM
Imagine a spherically symmetric aikidoka ...

Riai Maori
07-04-2014, 03:09 AM
There are many references in books relative to the physics of Aikido. "Aiki Secrets: Six Precepts and the Dynamic COB" is an interesting read. There is also good stuff in an e-book entitled "Injury and Skeletal Biomechanics". The 3rd chapter is titled "Using the Knowledge of Biomechanics in Teaching Aikido". You can find the e-book and chapter at http://www.intechopen.com/books/injury-and-skeletal-biomechanics/using-the-knowledge-of-biomechanics-in-teaching-aikido.

There are numerous others that are not on the top of my head at the moment, but I'll add to this post after the drugs wear off... :hypno:

Dear Clark

I do hope this reply finds you in good spirit. Your continued contribution to this website gives me inspiration, excitement and enjoyment. I follow your posts on a regular basis.

All the best.

Kind regards
Richard

Riai Maori
07-04-2014, 03:17 AM
Imagine a spherically symmetric aikidoka ...

Dear Demetrio,

Now that's taking it to another level. Interesting thought.:eek:

Kind regards
Richard

Carsten Möllering
07-04-2014, 03:21 AM
:o

Work = the degree of resistance or non-resistance, or how an effective aikido technique is
Force = Ki (the direction of energy or attack), just simplify the body as a stickman and the lines will symbolize the direction of ki
Displacement = direction where uke will be moved or thrown
angle = angle between uke's ki and nage's ki
So my simple explanationThis may help to learn and construct the outer shape of kihon no kata. (Even then it does not correctly describe the forms I learned and teach.) But it doesn't say anything about the aiki wich happens in tori first, before there is aiki between tori and uke - which depends on the aiki within tori.
ähem ... and ... qi/ki is clearly something different from "the line of attack".

When I teach I often say: "Don't mind angles, directions ... " ;)

Nonresistance happens if you are doing 0 work. This is achievable if nage's ki engages with uke's ki at 90 degrees to each other. This to me is a very basic principle and can be seen in all aikido techniques, whether it be applied on the smallest part of the body or on the whole body.Non-Resistance, which can be one aspect of aiki, happens within the body of tori. It does not depend on the angle between tori and uke.

Millsy
07-04-2014, 07:26 AM
I'm an Engineer, the first 10 years aikido was all engineering to me (and is some ways it still is) angles, vectors, forces, center of gravity. All these things helped me and the way my brain worked, learn and understand the mechanics of technique. But for me this approach became limiting, as I felt and saw others who were able to connect and work more dynamically than me. I had to break down some of my more rigid engineering approaches and rebuild to include feel, intent and connection.

We all think and comprehend differently, In a rash generalization, if I explain some things like and engineer half the class eyes glaze over, if I talk about connection the other halves eyes glaze :) know your audience.

kewms
07-04-2014, 11:23 AM
Its not a metaphor, please read the post above this. Seems very real to me.

I don't know about you, but I have a hard time calculating cosines in my head in the middle of a technique.

Even if I didn't, the idea that an aikido technique can be modeled as a single force acting in a single direction seems to me to be a radical and ultimately misleading oversimplification of what's actually going on. The physics of non-rigid bodies (humans) is way more complicated than that.

And, getting back to my original point, if you describe your technique in terms of forces *acting on* uke then yes, you are explictly describing your technique as something nage does TO uke. Which, IMO, is ultimately a very limiting description.

Katherine

kewms
07-04-2014, 11:33 AM
Not surprisingly, the physics concept of power = the rate of work/time = rate of energy consumed/time. If you do 0 work, then you use 0 power, and you use 0 energy (ideally). The magic angle is 90 degrees and apply it to any of uke's joint or spine. It's that simple. I think this is also applicable to judo.

This is just a starting point though.

Humans are not rigid bodies. Just because your force is at 90 degrees to a joint, that doesn't mean it is *also* at 90 degrees to uke's structure. In practice, I find tangents are much more useful than perpendiculars.

And of course this model doesn't consider how uke is responding to whatever you're trying to do.

As I said above, it might be useful as a starting point for some people, but it's ultimately a very limiting viewpoint.

Katherine

Hellis
07-04-2014, 12:18 PM
Hello Shihan Ellis

For fear of sounding rude, are you taking the"micky" out of what I was being told? Or did you learn something today? No disrespect sir, just trying to reflect your view?

Kind regards
Richard

Hi Richard

No micky here - I am just surprised to see how some people will get so involved in the " Engineering and Physic's " of Aikido rather than finding the technique from feeling and training.
I have trained at length with many Japanese teachers, never had one teach in such a way, It was always practice - practice. worked fine for me, but everyone to their own.

In the early days Kenshiro Abbe Sensei and Mutsuro Nakazono Sensei would both answer any student who tried to ask any form of deep analysis of a particular technique, they would both say " empty your mind and feel the technique " end of any discussion.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/

PeterR
07-04-2014, 12:37 PM
The engineering metaphor (and yes it is a metaphor) worked well for me and still does in trying to understand the workings of a particular technique. Force, torque, vectors - all good - but in the end that has to be discarded for feeling.

I don't think aikido can ever be described in purely mechanist language since it is so responsive in nature but if used as a stepping stone - depending on how you learn - it can be very powerful.

Just "feel the technique" has never worked for me.

The Shodokan teaching method has always broken down methods into component parts (not quite in engineering language) but it certainly made it very comfortable to learn.

Hilary
07-04-2014, 12:37 PM
What I am about to post below should in no way be read as a critique what Mario talks about above. He has extracted grouped the gross mechanics which is good thing.

Hilary
07-04-2014, 12:38 PM
In the end it is all physics and mind leads. If one wants to truly explain how the “magic” works or understand parts of the problem then you need to apply mechanical principles to understand. The rub is, the actual problem is very complicated and describing advanced movement and kinematic interaction between advanced practitioners is insanely complicated. The gross movements and principles pretty straight forward, once you get into the details you are into complicated 4D modeling because there are no closed form solutions.

Teaching it that way would lose virtually all of its utility with pretty much every one. So we fall to teaching by sensation, visualization and analogy, simpler, more effective and easier to understand. This does not mean we don’t try to explain the basic mechanics, they have their place. But to over rely on it will lead to frustration and only annoy the pig. The physics need come in small bite sized chunks.

In a thread a long time ago, in a forum far far away, someone had the bad luck to use the word vector and adding insult to injury they used the wrong vector(s). So off I went and created this little ditty (it was off the cuff so hey there are grammatical errors here and there, so sue me). I do not try to solve the problem, I tried simplify and reduce the problem to one aspect of the exercise, just to illustrate the gross incoming forces. I wanted people to understand how one direction is not always one direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekKejcA8gfE

Simple: Structural skeleton, articulated by joints, connected by ligaments, driven by muscles, powered by guts, sequenced by nerves. Simple models (orders of magnitude more complex than the animation above) that one can use to visualize gross motion, joint locking, leverage, momentum redirection and so on. Oh and feedback one must account for feedback.

Complex: That skeletal structure is actually slightly flexible and those joints are compliant differently in every individual and flex as well. The muscles different in strength and structure only pull and thus must be optimally sequenced (relaxation), connective tissue crosses joint boundaries providing additional structure. The bending moment on bones is mostly for concept illustration I assume most of us do not utilize that aspect in our art. Muscles only pull (and toward the center line) so we have a very complex arrangement and sequencing to create our complex motion. I could go on but…

I wrote an email this morning that discussed initiation movement from the hara. It touches on the subject here, so I cut and paste with no edits (it means cut my some slack it is a verbal description of some of the physics).
---
They really are not kidding when they say all movement begins from the hara, even if it is infinitesimally before. I think of it this way: 1) all muscles in the body pull toward your centerline 2) your only normal push off point is the ground and thus the contact point for all equal and opposite reaction. 3) If the periphery is rigid or stiff it is a lever to the center of your body. So that means the hara is the anchor point for most major muscles, fascia/tendon/ligament structure and skeletal central pivot, the power coupling nexus of the upper and lower body, and the best location for starting core to peripheral muscle activation (as opposed to peripheral to core which provides uke a lever).
Starting all movement there whether translating, rotating, or dropping recruits the totality of the body, which in turn allows you the maximum opportunity to distribute the task at hand over as much of the body as possible. At a more advanced level it also allows for secondary and tertiary levers and torques to be used/created across the body generating more energy and indirect forces (and provides alternate, complex pathways used to redirect incoming forces). Thus minimizing peak loading of the musculature (by virtue of wide distribution of the load) which reduces fatigue and increase power by using more of the body rather than localizing the task to specific muscles (or limb). This leaves the interface muscles (chained to the point of contact with uke) looser and allows for better feedback relative to subtle motion at the point of contact, so you can both feel where uke is pushing and where their center of gravity is (because of the path their force takes and how they adjust to perturbation). It is a wave of activation propagating out from the hara. The IP guys get even more complicated with skeletal, fascial and muscular counter spirals, and muscles actually spiraling around bones in a complex manner.
---
It all physics, but describing it purely in terms of physics if arduous and in the language of physics (mathematics) on a practical level impossible. Driving the body’s physics requires mental modeling (intent) and that doesn’t even begin to address manipulating uke’s perception (mind leads).

Nit pick away.

Mario Tobias
07-04-2014, 02:47 PM
Humans are not rigid bodies. Just because your force is at 90 degrees to a joint, that doesn't mean it is *also* at 90 degrees to uke's structure. In practice, I find tangents are much more useful than perpendiculars.

And of course this model doesn't consider how uke is responding to whatever you're trying to do.

As I said above, it might be useful as a starting point for some people, but it's ultimately a very limiting viewpoint.

Katherine


Non-Resistance, which can be one aspect of aiki, happens within the body of tori. It does not depend on the angle between tori and uke.


Each one has his own interpretation of aikido which I guess runs into the several millions or the number of aikido practitioners.

This analog to work and the magic 90 angle helps me breakdown the techniques. This has been a theory of mine, have experimented with it and have validated in the dojo for years. Saito sensei also stresses importance of angles while doing katai training. You can see it with many other shihan's techniques like endo sensei's.

This is perceived as limiting probably because this is just one principle, there are like 50 other principles (for me that is) you need to also simultaneously apply to do aikido. This will need 50 more posts to explain each.

Why complicate when, you can simplify.

Riai Maori
07-04-2014, 04:30 PM
Exciting read. Hilary out of interest how did you arrive at this thesis? I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but it is slowly sinking in. Thank you.

Riai Maori
07-04-2014, 04:44 PM
In the end it is all physics and mind leads.

Quote: Nadeau Shihan, "body moves, body talks" at one of our seminars. So true.:)

JP3
07-04-2014, 04:53 PM
The Western mind talks about biomechanics and physics, structures, vectors & forces, and they "get there."

It seems to me that the Eastern mind talks about lines of meredians, Ki, internalizing harmony or whatever else they say (it's not me, and I apologize), and they "Get there."

So, who cares? My nomenclature does not have to equal yur nomenclature, but it might be jhelpful if we could translate back and forth.

Such as, "Open up your heart chakra." If someone would simply say, "Stand up straight, pulling your shoulders back into good posture." I'd be fine.

Hilary
07-04-2014, 06:02 PM
Riai thank you for the kind words. In a nutshell my degree is in applied physics so the physics insights are really those of anyone with a technical degree. If you haven’t studied it, it’s rocket science, if you have it is just freshman statics and dynamics (so no big deal). At one point in my life I produced a 3D animated video and the problems of making an animated cat that simply walked without looking completely stupid (forget realistic) enlightened me as to the complexity of describing natural movement.

My sensei has been in martial arts for almost 60 years and aikido over 40 and, among other things, was a bio mechanics consultant to the US Olympic team. He is a researcher and a teacher by nature and profession, so we have always had a biomechanical slant to our material. He has been looking for easier more economical ways to do things since his early judo days, and students taking ukemi have been his lab rats (squeak). In the last couple of year I have been taking a few seminars with other notables and talking with some of the IP folks. I have found that all these ideas dovetail nicely.

If you combine keeping one point, connected body, no power at the point of contact, the relaxation of unbendable arm, projection of intent, tangential redirection, spiraling movement (both internal and external), tendon and fascia strength, grounding, ki extension, knowledge of sensation and perception, well-knit sinews, some IP secret sauce, and lots of exercises/drills designed to develop different aspects of the total package you find yourself writing this to someone on a Friday morning.
Because after a lot of training, time, input, reading, thinking and exposure to outstanding practitioners (of many stripes) this stuff starts to condense and take form. I am not sure I do this it all that well, but analysis is what I used to do professionally and verbalizing what is in my head is what I currently do (for better or worse) and often to the pained side long looks from my dojo mates (my wife and kids just sigh).

Sharpest tool is not required, practice, introspection and always asking or understanding why is the ticket. Always good to play people above your skill level, never waste you ukemi, always learn from it. Oh be polite to strangers and kind to animals, that duck might be somebody’s mother.

danj
07-04-2014, 11:56 PM
The following quote has resonated with me for many years (as i move in and out of concepts)

"Your aikido will only improve when your concept of aikido improves"
Kenjiro Yoshigasaki

Engineering and Physics contain lots of useful concepts, if they work for you great, if not, no need to get upset use something else.

FWIW I've benefitted tremendously from physics and engineering concepts in my own practice, its my profession for me so it floats my boat. For others in my dojo what I am saying can be 'blah, blah, blah' but the body work and movement is still there enough for them to get something (they keep coming back).

Funnily enough the ground reaction force, toppling vector and other concepts led me to the IS paradigm. And when I got to see Bill Gleason a few weeks back I thought, there is some neat physics going on there...and then some.

best to all,
dan

philipsmith
07-05-2014, 11:21 AM
As an Aikidoka Physiotherapist and (somewhat limited) biomechanist I can see some merit in all sides of the arguement.
I'm currently involved in a study looking at natural reactions to "grabbing" attacks; and yes the analysis is incredibly complex (maybe 3,000 data points per attack) from a scientific point of view.
Thing is with my Aikido head on I can pretty much predict how the subject is going to react beforehand.
So maybe the convergence of perception and physical movement creates what we call Aikido; and we need to learn the body mechanics as a first step.
As teachers maybe we need also to understand that physical, biomechanical action in order to transmit knowledge of technique effectively and efficiently rather than stumbling around for years before we hit on "the secret" - maybe that way we will produce many more competent Aikidoka than in the past who will also have more time to develop their perceptual skills.
There is IMHO no "magic" just hard work.

dps
07-05-2014, 01:32 PM
The human body is an animate object with animate systems that react differently than inanimate systems do. The systems of the body cannot be understood by classical mechanics, engineering and physics.

http://www.biotensegrity.com/tensegrity_new_biomechanics.php

dps

Riai Maori
07-05-2014, 03:51 PM
The human body is an animate object with animate systems that react differently than inanimate systems do. The systems of the body cannot be understood by classical mechanics, engineering and physics.

http://www.biotensegrity.com/tensegrity_new_biomechanics.php

dps

Interesting read on physics. Lets not talk about the giraffe neck. Some forgot to tell Newton he got it all wrong!

Riai Maori
07-05-2014, 04:08 PM
Sharpest tool is not required, practice, introspection and always asking or understanding why is the ticket. Always good to play people above your skill level, never waste you ukemi, always learn from it. Oh be polite to strangers and kind to animals, that duck might be somebody’s mother.

Thank you Hilary for the kind advice. Last year I was the proud surrogate father of 6 baby ducklings, I feed and help nurture them until flight. Every year there parents (Paradise Ducks) return for breeding.:)

Do you have a hidden cam somewhere in the bushes.:D

Riai Maori
07-05-2014, 04:13 PM
The following quote has resonated with me for many years (as i move in and out of concepts)

"Your aikido will only improve when your concept of aikido improves"
Kenjiro Yoshigasaki

Engineering and Physics contain lots of useful concepts, if they work for you great, if not, no need to get upset use something else.

FWIW I've benefitted tremendously from physics and engineering concepts in my own practice, its my profession for me so it floats my boat. For others in my dojo what I am saying can be 'blah, blah, blah' but the body work and movement is still there enough for them to get something (they keep coming back).

Funnily enough the ground reaction force, toppling vector and other concepts led me to the IS paradigm. And when I got to see Bill Gleason a few weeks back I thought, there is some neat physics going on there...and then some.

best to all,
dan

Dear Dan

Our club invited Sensei Gleason to NZ at the same time as you. I missed the seminar, but our Sensei (Satellite Dojo) attended and has shown what he was taught at the seminar. Thanks for the validation.

Kind regards
Richard

Riai Maori
07-05-2014, 04:16 PM
As an Aikidoka Physiotherapist and (somewhat limited) biomechanist I can see some merit in all sides of the arguement.
I'm currently involved in a study looking at natural reactions to "grabbing" attacks; and yes the analysis is incredibly complex (maybe 3,000 data points per attack) from a scientific point of view.
Thing is with my Aikido head on I can pretty much predict how the subject is going to react beforehand.
So maybe the convergence of perception and physical movement creates what we call Aikido; and we need to learn the body mechanics as a first step.
As teachers maybe we need also to understand that physical, biomechanical action in order to transmit knowledge of technique effectively and efficiently rather than stumbling around for years before we hit on "the secret" - maybe that way we will produce many more competent Aikidoka than in the past who will also have more time to develop their perceptual skills.
There is IMHO no "magic" just hard work.

Dear Philip,

Thank you for sharing with us your job description. I love people who walk the talk so to speak. And a big thumbs up for sharing "the secret" no magic there friend.

Kind regards
Richard

Riai Maori
07-05-2014, 04:22 PM
I don't know about you, but I have a hard time calculating cosines in my head in the middle of a technique.

And, getting back to my original point, if you describe your technique in terms of forces *acting on* uke then yes, you are explictly describing your technique as something nage does TO uke. Which, IMO, is ultimately a very limiting description.

Katherine

Dear Katherine.

Me too and yes I agree that it is limiting for myself as a beginner. I am just trying to understand some of Aikido concepts or flavors.

No disrespect intended and I do enjoy your postings, most of the time I say to myself go get them girl, when you agree to disagree.

All the best.

Kind regards
Richard

Robert Cowham
07-05-2014, 06:58 PM
Lots of good stuff in the thread already.

I find that a basic physical understanding of what is taking place really helps. And yet that is informed by lots of other things which include feeling into uke's center etc.

I tend to start with basic physics, which includes the fact that we are (on earth) connected to the ground and thus actions/reactions need to find their way to the ground through our body. Any action, from lifting a pint of beer to our mouth (I wonder why that example came to mind!) requires the forces of this action to be transmitted through our body to the ground (typically feet or via bum to chair). The more we become aware of these forces in our body, the greater our skill level.

Make it an aikido uke, and us trying to perform a technique, and the variables multiply exponentially, and yet there are still forces at work which we can become aware of, and influence. Luckily, I don't think I will have learned all there is about these scenarios any time soon...

crbateman
07-05-2014, 07:09 PM
There are numerous others that are not on the top of my head at the moment, but I'll add to this post after the drugs wear off... :hypno:

Another interesting read is this book: Aikido, Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

lbb
07-05-2014, 08:41 PM
So, who cares? My nomenclature does not have to equal yur nomenclature, but it might be jhelpful if we could translate back and forth.

Indeed. To OP, if you don't like the word "metaphor", then say "model", or "viewpoint", or whatever you want. Physics are definitely (obviously) present in aikido...but that's not all there is to it. Nor is it necessary to view aikido as a physics problem in order to get it. Eventually, on some level, your comprehension has to encompass that, but you don't have to come to an "understanding" of what's going on in terms of vectors and forces and whatnot.

Riai Maori
07-05-2014, 08:43 PM
The human body is an animate object with animate systems that react differently than inanimate systems do. The systems of the body cannot be understood by classical mechanics, engineering and physics.

http://www.biotensegrity.com/tensegrity_new_biomechanics.php

dps

"Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law
by John Thomas Read

http://www.aikibojitsu.com/BookPage.html

I am trying to decide whether to buy this book.

To that end I want to know if my understanding of this excerpt from the book (http://www.aikibojitsu.com/files/Asy..._Surface_2.pdf) is correct.

Simply put the katas are a way of tuning or harmonizing the practitioner's body with the bo or jo so that the practitioner "becomes one" with the bo or jo.

dps"

I was wondering if you found this book interesting?

Riai Maori
07-05-2014, 08:59 PM
Indeed. To OP, if you don't like the word "metaphor", then say "model", or "viewpoint", or whatever you want. Physics are definitely (obviously) present in aikido...but that's not all there is to it. Nor is it necessary to view aikido as a physics problem in order to get it. Eventually, on some level, your comprehension has to encompass that, but you don't have to come to an "understanding" of what's going on in terms of vectors and forces and whatnot.

Dear Mary,

Thank you for contributing.

As a beginner, I find it easier for myself to comprehend Aikido as a whole. Yes I know it is a small, yet crucial element of Aikido. I would ask myself why am I falling into the "black hole" every time someone performed a technique on me. Other people have generously broken it down more complex.

For myself as a beginner it gives me a broader knowledge of the subject. :)

Please cut me some slack.

Kind regards
Richard

Walter Martindale
07-06-2014, 04:56 AM
The human brain is an amazing "physics computer". Whether or not the person doing a movement consciously understands anything about physics, any movement we generate ends up being about the physics of it.
Imagine the baseball outfielder - or the cricket fielder - the ball is struck, it's on a high parabolic arc which is influenced by gravity, air resistance, wind direction, and the spin of the ball as it leaves the bat. Without a moment's pause to calculate anything, the fielder can run to where the ball is going to land so that he or she can catch the ball. Imagine writing up the equation for that...

The aikido person does all that computation inside, also, without realizing it. As others have commented it, some call it physics (which I think about to speed up how I learn something, until I don't have to think that way and I can do it by feel), others call it "ki".

It's not simple. When starting out in biomechanics I was shown a film (yes, a 16 mm film, it's that long ago) of the steps to "optimize" something as simple as a kick to a target. I can't remember the details but it took something like 30 variables, (a lot of) ordinary differential equations, and 24 hours of computing time in a PDP-11 (what used to be a really good computer, probably trashed by a pentium processor for processing power) to calculate an "optimal" strategy for a person to kick a target that was at waist height..
Calculations we're not aware of - neural transmission rate, muscle recruitment patterns, "think" time, sensory-to-spine-to-brain-to-processing-to-forming-a-response-plan-to-sending-the-signal-to-nerve-transmission-to-spine-to-muscle-to-contract-to-movement. Studies have shown that if you've started a response, and you need to make a change, there's a gap of (here's my forgetting... is it 150 milliseconds?) during which you can't even start a change. An example is the goaltender in ice-hockey - sees a shot coming, starts to move to catch the puck, but his team-mate's leg deflects the path of the puck in the last metre of the puck's flight to where the goalie thinks the puck is going, and suddenly the puck is no longer going there - sorry - you don't have time to reprogram the response, and the puck is in the net.

It's physics, and chemistry, and.... magic?
W

lbb
07-07-2014, 09:14 AM
\
As a beginner, I find it easier for myself to comprehend Aikido as a whole.

As a beginner, I found it easier to not try and comprehend aikido at all -- just do it. I understood myself, then and now, as the proverbial blind man touching a part of the elephant. Even assuming I understand the part, the part is not the whole.

PeterR
07-07-2014, 09:38 AM
As a beginner, I found it easier to not try and comprehend aikido at all -- just do it. I understood myself, then and now, as the proverbial blind man touching a part of the elephant. Even assuming I understand the part, the part is not the whole.

Somewhere out there is a great cartoon of aikidoists fondling an elephant.

lbb
07-07-2014, 02:16 PM
The more you fondle the part, the less you understand the whole...naaaah!

dps
07-08-2014, 09:08 PM
"Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law
by John Thomas Read

http://www.aikibojitsu.com/BookPage.html

I am trying to decide whether to buy this book.

To that end I want to know if my understanding of this excerpt from the book (http://www.aikibojitsu.com/files/Asy..._Surface_2.pdf) is correct.

Simply put the katas are a way of tuning or harmonizing the practitioner's body with the bo or jo so that the practitioner "becomes one" with the bo or jo.

dps"

I was wondering if you found this book interesting?

The physics is all wrong.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19542&highlight=Aikibojitsu

dps

danj
07-11-2014, 02:22 AM
The physics is all wrong.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19542&highlight=Aikibojitsu

dps
I did in the end purchase and get through the book, the author was helpful in postage to overseas (Australia) and started writing a review...can't find it though...but will have another look.
I think the author is talented and has a clear progression of ideas and there are interesting/useful koan's along the way that i got value from.

The use of scientific nomenclature is quite non-traditional and that got in the way for me because i could see how it was being used, as it was different to my understanding (radio physics was my graduate work).
I think the nomenclature is used as a kind of language, wrapper or framework to get get across some ideas in a context, which was clearly helpful for the author in an autobiographical sense and to present a thematic development of ideas. I also found useful his work that i saw in the the aikiexpo videos to understand some of what he was saying.

It wasn't an easy read, but if your looking for insights, and if someone has taken the time to put their life's work in a book you can get value from it.
best,
dan

dps
07-11-2014, 09:46 PM
I did in the end purchase and get through the book, the author was helpful in postage to overseas (Australia) and started writing a review...can't find it though...but will have another look.
I think the author is talented and has a clear progression of ideas and there are interesting/useful koan's along the way that i got value from.

The use of scientific nomenclature is quite non-traditional and that got in the way for me because i could see how it was being used, as it was different to my understanding (radio physics was my graduate work).
I think the nomenclature is used as a kind of language, wrapper or framework to get get across some ideas in a context, which was clearly helpful for the author in an autobiographical sense and to present a thematic development of ideas. I also found useful his work that i saw in the the aikiexpo videos to understand some of what he was saying.

It wasn't an easy read, but if your looking for insights, and if someone has taken the time to put their life's work in a book you can get value from it.
best,
dan

Thank You I will take another look at it.

dps

JP3
07-12-2014, 06:32 PM
Gravity works.

danj
07-13-2014, 04:51 PM
+1
Heaven and earth, in yo, ying yang, gravity and ground reaction force.

reza.n
07-13-2014, 07:05 PM
I've practiced Aikido for about 3 years and I'm a beginner of course.
I've already felt that engineering-physics concept. Since I love physics, I see it, the forces vectors are so obvious and simultaneously are deeply hidden in the real act and performs.
But I think there will be a higher level when one practices more and it becomes like a language, when you talk your native language you never think about grammar or these sort of things, you just speak it and let the words out and you're sure that you use them correctly.
I think in higher levels the Aikido becomes that native language where there is no concepts of physics and engineering elements (albeit there would be) and it's just something through the blood, veins and muscles; the subconscious mind handle everything.
As I've already mentioned, I'm just a beginner and it's just a theory of mine ;)