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bicatlinh
06-22-2014, 12:16 PM
what is the correct way to grip the uke hand when we do the kote gaeshi?
And which kind of kote gaeshi below here is better? I have 2 sensei at my dojo and both studied the different style, 1 is aikikai and 1 is shishiya-nishio. I often get confused and don't know which is better to do and to learn? I just want to stick to 1 to get a the good habit.

shishiya- nishio way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpK2C4H8OR8

aikikai one ... I think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll1GCzl4Bxg

In addition, how the leg should move? step back or step in front in order not to get hit by uke's free hand?
Thank you so much!

Ethan Weisgard
07-27-2014, 05:32 AM
Hello Phuong Vu,

The correct way of using the hand in kote gaeshi is the way the given Sensei is showing it ;-)
Each Sensei has his / her reasons for doing it their way. I am from the Iwama lineage, and the NY Aikikai form that you have shown in the second clip is very much like the way we do it - there are small differences in body posture and the height that we do the kote geashi from (we try to keep our hand / uke's hand in front of our center when throwing), but the points that the instructor is making regarding hand placement etc. is very much like the Iwama form. If you look carefully, the Shishiya Sensei form is the same, once he gets to the actual kote gaeshi. The entrance (tai sabaki) is different - this tai sabaki is very characteristic of the Nishio Sensei lineage. They have their reasons for moving this way, that are very much based on the sword work that is used in this style.
So when training in dojos where there are different forms being shown by different Sensei - do Aikido: awase! Go with the flow. There is a saying in Japanese: "II toko tori": take the good parts ;-)

In aiki,
Ethan

sakumeikan
07-27-2014, 05:58 AM
what is the correct way to grip the uke hand when we do the kote gaeshi?
And which kind of kote gaeshi below here is better? I have 2 sensei at my dojo and both studied the different style, 1 is aikikai and 1 is shishiya-nishio. I often get confused and don't know which is better to do and to learn? I just want to stick to 1 to get a the good habit.

shishiya- nishio way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpK2C4H8OR8

aikikai one ... I think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll1GCzl4Bxg

In addition, how the leg should move? step back or step in front in order not to get hit by uke's free hand?
Thank you so much!
Dear Phuong, full
Of the two vids shown my preference is New York.The other video is a bit sloppy.No control of Uke in the pin down.The Sensei also uses his palm on ukes wrist, very little control here I fear.He also misses the kote gaeshi [at the start]and uses ude gaeshi. Just my views here, Cheers, Joe.

kewms
07-27-2014, 09:42 AM
If uke ends up in front of nage before the takedown, there are lots of opportunities for a reversal. I'm skeptical of the NY Aikikai version for that reason. I like the other version better precisely because he does demonstrate a variety of hand positions: body positioning and connection are more important to the technique IMO.

In answer to the OP's question, though: do the version being demonstrated until you are experienced enough to ask for and understand an explanation of the differences among them.

Katherine

PeterR
07-27-2014, 10:58 AM
If uke ends up in front of nage before the takedown, there are lots of opportunities for a reversal. I'm skeptical of the NY Aikikai version for that reason. I like the other version better precisely because he does demonstrate a variety of hand positions: body positioning and connection are more important to the technique IMO.

In answer to the OP's question, though: do the version being demonstrated until you are experienced enough to ask for and understand an explanation of the differences among them.

Katherine

Just to cause trouble - I was using the forearm.

Cavate - there is no CORRECT hand placement.

kewms
07-27-2014, 11:03 AM
Just to cause trouble - I was using the forearm.

Cavate - there is no CORRECT hand placement.

Oh, I agree. I often have students use the forearm in order to help them understand that it's *not* about torquing on the wrist.

Katherine

PeterR
07-27-2014, 11:53 AM
Oh, I agree. I often have students use the forearm in order to help them understand that it's *not* about torquing on the wrist.

Katherine

Laughs - I should have been clearer. I was applying the kotegeishi using a combination of one of my hands and my forearm.

kewms
07-27-2014, 01:22 PM
Laughs - I should have been clearer. I was applying the kotegeishi using a combination of one of my hands and my forearm.

Ah. Yes, I noticed that in some of the examples.

Just to be clear about what I meant: I don't worry too much about either exact placement on uke's hand/forearm or the body part that nage uses to accomplish the turnover. If the body is in the right place it doesn't matter, and if it's not, manipulating uke's hand won't help.

Katherine

Janet Rosen
07-27-2014, 01:33 PM
Laughs - I should have been clearer. I was applying the kotegeishi using a combination of one of my hands and my forearm.

I find I use one hand to get the attacker's hand in the approx grasp I want, but the imbalancing and throw comes from my body movement and I use my forearm cutting up along uke's forearm to guide uke's trajectory and if possible by cutting up at the last moment to start turning him face down before his wt is on the mat.

PeterR
07-27-2014, 01:35 PM
Ah. Yes, I noticed that in some of the examples.

Just to be clear about what I meant: I don't worry too much about either exact placement on uke's hand/forearm or the body part that nage uses to accomplish the turnover. If the body is in the right place it doesn't matter, and if it's not, manipulating uke's hand won't help.

Katherine

That is another interesting point - small hand fold/return demands some sort of wrist maneuver. Playing terminology boy here but if you are manipulating the forearm we Shodokan types call it a Hiji waza or elbow manipulation - which includes the fabled ikkyo.

I think you can bring someone down in a kotegeishi-esque maneuver on the forearm but you are dealing with an entirely different joint.

PeterR
07-27-2014, 01:52 PM
I find I use one hand to get the attacker's hand in the approx grasp I want, but the imbalancing and throw comes from my body movement and I use my forearm cutting up along uke's forearm to guide uke's trajectory and if possible by cutting up at the last moment to start turning him face down before his wt is on the mat.

Oh and yes. Everything is body movement and positioning. No argument there.

Cliff Judge
07-27-2014, 01:58 PM
That is another interesting point - small hand fold/return demands some sort of wrist maneuver. Playing terminology boy here but if you are manipulating the forearm we Shodokan types call it a Hiji waza or elbow manipulation - which includes the fabled ikkyo.


Interesting. Lately I have been thinking of the kote as, actually, the forearm. I guess I have been seeing kotegaeshi as an elbow manipulation this whole time. When people go for the wrist itself it is like, it may hurt, but it never really seems to get use's balance unless you are moving the elbow around too.

PeterR
07-27-2014, 02:06 PM
Interesting. Lately I have been thinking of the kote as, actually, the forearm. I guess I have been seeing kotegaeshi as an elbow manipulation this whole time. When people go for the wrist itself it is like, it may hurt, but it never really seems to get use's balance unless you are moving the elbow around too.

Now this gets interesting. The Kote as explained to me has included the region from the center of the palm and includes the forearm (but not the elbow). In kendo the Kote is the glove which covers that region. Kote is not just the wrist and a strike to the Kote is to the region covered by the Kote.

I think an applied kotegeishi will affect the wrist first followed by the elbow followed by the shoulder and so on. This speaks again to the points raised by Janet and Katherine - where the true power comes from body movement and placement. I guess what we are talking about is where the energy transfer begins.

kewms
07-27-2014, 02:09 PM
Interesting. Lately I have been thinking of the kote as, actually, the forearm. I guess I have been seeing kotegaeshi as an elbow manipulation this whole time. When people go for the wrist itself it is like, it may hurt, but it never really seems to get use's balance unless you are moving the elbow around too.

I would agree. We've spent a lot of class time over the last few months trying to expunge the most common bad kotegaeshi variations, and a lot of them seem to derive from overemphasis on the wrist.

Katherine

Mary Eastland
07-27-2014, 04:06 PM
For me, it depends on my uke...some ways work better with certain ukes than others. I like having variations in my toolkit so I can respond to the uke and the circumstances.

Adam Huss
07-27-2014, 04:23 PM
For me, it depends on my uke...some ways work better with certain ukes than others. I like having variations in my toolkit so I can respond to the uke and the circumstances.

Are you talking about uke you know, or you respond differently in a dynamic way for uke as they come in with their attack?

robin_jet_alt
07-27-2014, 05:22 PM
Oh, I agree. I often have students use the forearm in order to help them understand that it's *not* about torquing on the wrist.

Katherine

I don't think we should get overly caught up on semantics. The aim of the wrist lock is to create a tight connection between yourself and your uke through the arm. If you can do that without torquing the wrist, then I don't have a problem with it.

If uke ends up in front of nage before the takedown, there are lots of opportunities for a reversal. I'm skeptical of the NY Aikikai version for that reason. I like the other version better precisely because he does demonstrate a variety of hand positions: body positioning and connection are more important to the technique IMO.

In answer to the OP's question, though: do the version being demonstrated until you are experienced enough to ask for and understand an explanation of the differences among them.

Katherine

I agree. This aspect is something that Shishiya sensei is very aware of.

Dear Phuong, full
Of the two vids shown my preference is New York.The other video is a bit sloppy.No control of Uke in the pin down.The Sensei also uses his palm on ukes wrist, very little control here I fear.He also misses the kote gaeshi [at the start]and uses ude gaeshi. Just my views here, Cheers, Joe.

I feel I should probably defend Shishiya sensei a bit here. He deliberately omits the wrist technique in order to demonstrate that hurting the wrist is not necessary to achieve an effective takedown with kotegaeshi. I have received his technique and I can vouch that it is certainly effective. Very difficult, often overly complicated, in many cases not the way I would do things, yet when he does it, it is effective. Although I don't train in his style any more, there are plenty of things that I have taken away from my year and a bit of training with him.

sakumeikan
07-28-2014, 02:08 AM
I don't think we should get overly caught up on semantics. The aim of the wrist lock is to create a tight connection between yourself and your uke through the arm. If you can do that without torquing the wrist, then I don't have a problem with it.

I agree. This aspect is something that Shishiya sensei is very aware of.

I feel I should probably defend Shishiya sensei a bit here. He deliberately omits the wrist technique in order to demonstrate that hurting the wrist is not necessary to achieve an effective takedown with kotegaeshi. I have received his technique and I can vouch that it is certainly effective. Very difficult, often overly complicated, in many cases not the way I would do things, yet when he does it, it is effective. Although I don't train in his style any more, there are plenty of things that I have taken away from my year and a bit of training with him.
Dear Robin,
We have here a situation whereby we the readers watch a video posted such as the kote gaeshi vids. Unfortunately we cannot judge whether the kote gaeshi is effective/painful/forced or whatever.We only see the the waza , we cannot feel the waza.Also the other aspect is the mindset of the participants.By this I mean this.Is Tori cranking on the waza?Is Uke compliant /resistant/awkward ?So any criticism may well be flawed ,unless of course the waza is either well done or poorly executed.At the end of the day the only way to know if any waza is ok is to experience it.
cheers, Joe.

Adam Huss
07-28-2014, 09:06 AM
Yeah, we can only comment on what we see....its not the perfect scenario but its a little better than just text descriptions without any visual reference.

jonreading
07-28-2014, 10:29 AM
The correct grip is the grip that sensei demonstrates. From there, you have the best opportunity to feel the joint manipulation, which in my opinion, is quite varied in the kotegaeshi kata. Seminars are a great opportunity to see variety and get hands-on.

From an instructional perspective, I have taught kotegaeshi as a corner drop (sumi otoshi) with a wrist control (kote gaeshi). We have a few rules:
1. The wrist twist should apply sufficient torsion to prevent uke from turning into nage and you should apply torsion upon gaining the wrist.
2. Any lateral movement should maintain the center of the technique.
3. The bulk of the throw is committed through the corner drop, not twisting wrist (the twisting is just to maintain the torsion in unity with the body movement)

I made these rules because, my opinion, the most common kata failures are:
1. Nage waits until the end of the technique to twist uke's wrist to make them fall down.
2. In stepping, nage loses the "center" of the technique and creates a mutual orbit for both partners.
3. Nage envisions the fruition of the technique is derived from the joint manipulation (and over-focuses on the wrist).

To Cliff's point, I am fond of using the forearm because it relieves the pressure of ukemi for students who are not comfortable with wrist-twisting and it requires the kata to work absent joint manipulation. Also, there is a segment of the training population that reinforces how stupid it is to try twisting a wrist on a participant who is less-than-willing.

robin_jet_alt
07-28-2014, 06:37 PM
Dear Robin,
We have here a situation whereby we the readers watch a video posted such as the kote gaeshi vids. Unfortunately we cannot judge whether the kote gaeshi is effective/painful/forced or whatever.We only see the the waza , we cannot feel the waza.Also the other aspect is the mindset of the participants.By this I mean this.Is Tori cranking on the waza?Is Uke compliant /resistant/awkward ?So any criticism may well be flawed ,unless of course the waza is either well done or poorly executed.At the end of the day the only way to know if any waza is ok is to experience it.
cheers, Joe.

Absolutely :)

reza.n
07-29-2014, 02:13 AM
I'm practicing aikido aikikai, I should mention these two videos are not comparable. The aikikai one (by Mike Jones) is just demonstration of very basic Kotegaeshi and the other one is about variation of kotegaeshi, which it was really helpful for me (I appreciate it).
In aikido clips and variation of techniques don't try to compare but try to feel the differences and learn different forms of a single technique. I always see it this way.

phitruong
07-29-2014, 07:15 AM
first order of the business is the entry. do you focus on the wrist, the forearm, or the elbow? if uke punches and pulls back, instead of the usual aikido punch and leave the arm out there, what would be the entry and the focus of nage? that entry determines your hands placement. for me, up until i drive uke elbow into his hips and pin his feet in place, i haven't decide which technique to use yet. it could be shihonage, kaiten nage, iriminage, hijinage, elbow-in-the-face-and-leg-sweep nage, kissingnage, and whatevernage. then the torquing of the wrist, which i don't much care for, because it ties up both my hands. i prefer to have one of the hands somewhat free so that if uke gives me problem, then i will show uke a series of rather vicious elbow sequence i learned from a striking art. oh wait! we suppose to have love and harmony with aikido right? damn! look like i need to work on some more loving! :)

kewms
07-29-2014, 09:41 AM
first order of the business is the entry. do you focus on the wrist, the forearm, or the elbow?

None of the above. The focus is always uke's center. An atemi to the face or ribs makes pretty much any technique easier to accomplish.

Katherine

PeterR
07-29-2014, 10:30 AM
None of the above. The focus is always uke's center. An atemi to the face or ribs makes pretty much any technique easier to accomplish.

Katherine

Kotegaishi needs kuzushi to work. If you accomplish that with atemi I can think of better things to do than switch to that particular technique.

kewms
07-29-2014, 10:42 AM
Kotegaishi needs kuzushi to work. If you accomplish that with atemi I can think of better things to do than switch to that particular technique.

I think we have gone beyond the realm of what can be discussed online. I know what I'm visualizing, but I'm not sure I can convey the nuances accurately.

The short version is that, in our approach, a strong irimi is the starting point of pretty much every technique, and that includes both a focus on uke's center and at least the threat of an appropriate atemi. The resulting technique then depends on what uke does: in kata practice, it's uke's responsibility to respond in a way that allows nage to complete the prescribed technique.

If we're not practicing a specific kata, then my goal as nage is to get uke on the ground and neutralize the situation as efficiently as possible, which may or may not involve kotegaeshi but *will* involve a strong irimi.

Katherine

SeaGrass
07-29-2014, 11:28 AM
what is the correct way to grip the uke hand when we do the kote gaeshi?
And which kind of kote gaeshi below here is better? I have 2 sensei at my dojo and both studied the different style, 1 is aikikai and 1 is shishiya-nishio. I often get confused and don't know which is better to do and to learn? I just want to stick to 1 to get a the good habit.

shishiya- nishio way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpK2C4H8OR8

aikikai one ... I think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll1GCzl4Bxg

In addition, how the leg should move? step back or step in front in order not to get hit by uke's free hand?
Thank you so much!

Phuong, do both. There are stylistic differences but the principle of kote-gaeshi is the same. If you're keen on picking one then use the one that works best for you.

Mary Eastland
07-29-2014, 11:32 AM
The focus is the connection with uke...all of uke. Then you will know exactly what to do, how to do it and the speed at which to do it.

pierotofy
07-29-2014, 01:18 PM
Personally, I think the goal is to take the slack out of the wrist, which then allows you to control the elbow, which in turns connects you to the shoulder, then the rest of the body. You shouldn't be torquing the wrist as a mechanism to do the throw. Once you connect, you can shift their balance where you want the person to fall.

Adam Huss
07-29-2014, 07:03 PM
Personally, I think the goal is to take the slack out of the wrist, which then allows you to control the elbow, which in turns connects you to the shoulder, then the rest of the body. You shouldn't be torquing the wrist as a mechanism to do the throw. Once you connect, you can shift their balance where you want the person to fall.

One of the biggest problems I see are people simply torquing the wrist. It really doesn't do anything, you have to actually effect the elbow-hips, like you say. Its an arm-body throw, you are just using the wrist to get there.

lifestylemanoz
10-07-2014, 03:26 AM
Basically whatever you can pull off at the time. I would attempt all of them and see what you prefer. Early on in Yoseikan style we literally control hand while atemi, then break balance using arm (jujutsu style - leaning into the arm on turn). This would send Uke forward in the same direction of attack. The wrist reversal would then make uke slip or slide forward as his forward momentum is countered with a reversal movement taking out your feet sometimes in the process.

I have also studied Aikiki and appreciate the method of teaching the down and up and down movement with balance taking with Aiki. So, the corollory of that is I use it however I feel. If I make a big tenkan entry Aikiki style. If i slip the punch and strike, aikijujutsu.