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dps
05-14-2014, 07:25 AM
For the past thirty years I have seen and heard that if you neutralize an attacker using Aikido they will become your friend.

Does anyone have an example of this?

dps

lbb
05-14-2014, 08:38 AM
I suppose it would depend on how wise the attacker is. They'd need to be wise enough to recognize that you'd acted with restraint, but still foolish enough to have attacked you in the first place.

Mary Eastland
05-14-2014, 08:56 AM
When I read that I thought you were trying to reconcile with aikido. ;o)

When I am immersed in class the whole world seems like a friendly place. The feeling helps me be more at peace with the world.

Janet Rosen
05-14-2014, 10:42 AM
I have never read, heard, been told that....would love to see actual citations?

jonreading
05-14-2014, 01:44 PM
http://youtu.be/iXVO8NLb4AQ

It still makes me laugh, "That's how Ghandi would fight if he was a fighter."

The sad part is that the stereotype of aikido is strong enough to support spoofing...

For the record, we practice soothing sounds in chokes, too.

Riai Maori
05-14-2014, 03:12 PM
http://youtu.be/iXVO8NLb4AQ

It still makes me laugh, "That's how Ghandi would fight if he was a fighter."



"Developed by the Chinese and bought to America"

Thanks for the laugh :D

Edgecrusher
05-14-2014, 03:53 PM
Never heard of that however, I am sure that after a fight you could become friends with the unsuccessful attacker. Of course that would also depend on how they were neutralized.

Keith Larman
05-14-2014, 04:40 PM
Never heard that either. Sure, some folk get kinda "touchy/feely" about this stuff and I get deescalation and trying to defuse an angry person, but I'm pretty sure tossing some poor fella on his head or cranking his arm into a painful position isn't going to make many friends, especially if they really are trying to do you harm.

Of course there's always that god-awful segment in the oil/environmental Alaska based Seagal movie. But I think that segment was supposed to be more about Stevie's god-like powers of reincarnated spiritual-dude sensitive-pony-tail-man testosterone soaked persuasion than about Aikido itself... But hey, opinions vary I suppose...

dps
05-14-2014, 04:48 PM
http://aikidomugenjuku.wordpress.com/about/

Under '' The Philosophy of Aikido ''.

Only one example, looking for others.

dps

kewms
05-14-2014, 06:09 PM
There are examples where people who came to challenge Ueshiba Sensei became his students.

Certainly causing an attacker to give up in frustration because you have no openings will give him more of an opportunity to become your friend than slicing him to ribbons with your sword would.

But it seems to me that much would depend on the attacker's underlying motivation. Is the attacker just a belligerent drunk who might see the error of his ways when sober? Or is he seriously trying to kill or rob you for whatever reason?

And there's also the question of whether you even want to be his friend.

The "two guys get in a fight, then become friends" trope is of course a Hollywood buddy movie staple. To the extent that it happens in real life, I would say it has more to do with realizing that the underlying causes of the fight were dumb than with the particular skills deployed by either person.

Katherine

Cliff Judge
05-14-2014, 09:10 PM
You want to make friends with Aikido? Bring some decent beer. Aikido will at least pretend like it is your friend.

dps
05-15-2014, 01:58 AM
http://www.eastbayaikido.com/overview/description.html

Paragraph three.

dps

kewms
05-15-2014, 02:16 AM
Maybe you should ask the instructors at East Bay Aikido for clarification?

Katherine

lbb
05-15-2014, 07:53 AM
Maybe you should ask the instructors at East Bay Aikido for clarification?

Yeah, that was my thought. You've produced two cites; maybe you should ask the authors, not us.

dps
05-15-2014, 10:21 AM
After the times I had to use Aikido to prevent someone from physically harming me, they would not come near me or speak to me. So I was curious if anyone on Aikiweb was able to convince someone to become a friend or treat them friendlier after using Aikido on them.

I don't want explanations of what is meant just examples, besides Shioda Sensei is dead.

dps

Kevin Leavitt
05-15-2014, 02:22 PM
Not sure about making friends, but I believe that if you do things correctly, you do not provide input or feedback to a situation that provides a basis for your opponent to continue to fight back or struggle.

In that sense, I think you limit further conflict. I suppose you could translate this into making friends.

I am personally not so concerned with "making friends" with my enemy as much as I am establishing a relationship built on respect and understanding. That may be that he understands that continuing to sturggle will do him no good. Or it could be the understanding that I do not plan on doing him harm past the point that he is willing to engage.

I just finished a high level meeting with the Angolan military in which we are working to improve our relationships after many years of bad blood. I was not concerned with making friends, but furthering an understanding and mutual respect for one another. That is to build trust and find common ground were we can meet in the middle and begin to grow/foster a relationship. While we gained a better understanding during our meetings, I would not say we made any friendships...and that is okay.

Phil Van Treese
05-15-2014, 03:21 PM
When I was a deputy sheriff, now retired, I dropped a lot of people because they deserved it. I don't think they wanted to be one of my friends then nor do they want to be friends now. If they did, I'd shown them again what I did to them---splat!!!!

dps
05-15-2014, 04:35 PM
You want to make friends with Aikido? Bring some decent beer. Aikido will at least pretend like it is your friend.

Until the beer is gone.:p

dps

dps
05-15-2014, 04:42 PM
I am personally not so concerned with "making friends" with my enemy as much as I am establishing a relationship built on respect and understanding. That may be that he understands that continuing to sturggle will do him no good. Or it could be the understanding that I do not plan on doing him harm past the point that he is willing to engage.

Good point.

Friendship is based on trust, I find it impossible to trust someone who has tried to harm me.
A relationship based on understanding and respect for what you can do to the person who has tried to harm you is my experience.
dps

dps
05-15-2014, 04:58 PM
When I was a deputy sheriff, now retired, I dropped a lot of people because they deserved it. I don't think they wanted to be one of my friends then nor do they want to be friends now. If they did, I'd shown them again what I did to them---splat!!!!

:)

dps

kewms
05-15-2014, 05:10 PM
Good point.

Friendship is based on trust, I find it impossible to trust someone who has tried to harm me.
A relationship based on understanding and respect for what you can do to the person who has tried to harm you is my experience.
dps

Neither "trust" nor "friendship" is binary. Or "harm," for that matter. There are plenty of people who I genuinely like but wouldn't trust in a variety of situations. There are plenty of people who I trust within the boundaries of our existing relationship, but with whom I don't feel any need to become more closely acquainted.

Katherine

Janet Rosen
05-15-2014, 05:10 PM
Excellent points. There is a world of difference between "applying aikido in daily life" - like "verbal aikido" or paraverbal techniques - to deal with workplace or family conflict and actually using physical technique with a real attacker. The latter become a friend? Not in my world. I can choose not to create an image of the person as The Enemy, I can choose not to hate, but certainly wouldn't embrace as a friend.

dps
05-15-2014, 05:18 PM
Neither "trust" nor "friendship" is binary. Or "harm," for that matter. There are plenty of people who I genuinely like but wouldn't trust in a variety of situations. There are plenty of people who I trust within the boundaries of our existing relationship, but with whom I don't feel any need to become more closely acquainted.

Katherine

What do you mean by ''binary'' in context of trust, harm, friendship?

dps

kewms
05-15-2014, 05:32 PM
What do you mean by ''binary'' in context of trust, harm, friendship?

dps

I don't necessarily completely trust or completely distrust someone. I might trust them in some situations but not others, or only up to a certain line.

Similarly, there are degrees of friendship, from casual business or social acquaintance up to someone I'd want with me for the best and worst that life has to offer.

And degrees of harm, from "gave me a shove when drunk" to "broke into my house with a firearm." Not to mention all the varieties of non-physical harm.

Shades of gray, not black and white.

Katherine

dps
05-15-2014, 09:17 PM
So I was curious if anyone on Aikiweb was able to convince someone to become a friend or treat them friendlier after using Aikido on them.


My apologies, the above sentence in post #15 should of said ''.....to treat you friendlier....''.

dps

dps
05-15-2014, 09:33 PM
I don't necessarily completely trust or completely distrust someone. I might trust them in some situations but not others, or only up to a certain line.

Similarly, there are degrees of friendship, from casual business or social acquaintance up to someone I'd want with me for the best and worst that life has to offer.

And degrees of harm, from "gave me a shove when drunk" to "broke into my house with a firearm." Not to mention all the varieties of non-physical harm.

Shades of gray, not black and white.

dps

Katherine

OK I understand what you mean and it sounds like I have a narrower definition of what a friend is.
In context with what the thread is about, if someone would attack you with intent of doing you physical harm and you used your Aikido training to stop their attack, would they want to be your friend because you used Aikido to stop them?

Has this ever happened to you?

kewms
05-16-2014, 12:31 AM
OK I understand what you mean and it sounds like I have a narrower definition of what a friend is.
In context with what the thread is about, if someone would attack you with intent of doing you physical harm and you used your Aikido training to stop their attack, would they want to be your friend because you used Aikido to stop them?

Beats me. You'd have to ask them how they felt about the experience. I would imagine that it would depend on all the factors listed above.

No, I don't speak from personal experience. My only "real world" applications of aikido have involved people who were obnoxious and drunk, rather than intent on harm. I didn't have the opportunity (or the interest) to go through an after-action analysis with them.

Katherine

jonreading
05-16-2014, 08:13 AM
No, Aikido is not about friendship. Aikido is about compassion. The early philosophy was intended to drive action from compassion. The later philosophy was altered to reflect non-adversarial accommodation. These two concepts are not equivalent. I have a narrow definition of "friend" and that rank of acquaintance would be difficult to meet for anyone who ever intentionally intended to harm me.

I may be putting words into David's mouth, but I found his original post to be a direct observation of an inconsistent ideology persisting in aikido that has no real metric of implementation success. Yes, that ideology exists in aikido to such an extent that my first post was an illustration of the mocking of that perspective. Yes, there is some possibility that through introspection, an attacker may realize that we acted in their best interest. Yes, there is some possibility that person would acknowledge that consideration at some point. My act of compassion does not reflect my desire to become friends. Again, my compassionate act not to dump a beer on a Red Sox fan does not reflect a desire to become friends with one.

Creating friendship through training is different. The alignment of personal goals, ideological beliefs and stress of training is a concoction for bonding, similar to many other team-oriented endeavors.

lbb
05-16-2014, 09:19 AM
I'd say that reflects a desire to not waste a beer, Jon.

Keith Larman
05-16-2014, 11:04 AM
I often wonder about these things. For me, I think there is value in *not* viewing the other guy as an attacker per se when doing Aikido. Obviously they are and for practical reasons you can never forget that they are attacking and intending harm. But it ties in greatly with ideas of intent and control -- when you *try* to muscle, try to overpower, try to throw and allow that normal, human "oh crap" reaction takes over often the quality of the technique drops in to the toilet. Treating them as a "friend" in a sense allows me to relax and do what I should be doing.

All that said over the years I've come to see it more as "being professional" rather than treating them as a friend. Doing what I know how to do cleanly, efficiently, and allowing the training to do what it's supposed to do.

So really I see it as a somewhat one-sided thing since I have very little chance of changing their mindset or intent. I can only control how I deal with them. So sure, treating them professionally, competently, with care and compassion as well. I can get behind that. But "making" them your friends strikes me as something else usually well outside your power to effect.

FWIW.

PeterR
05-16-2014, 11:20 AM
I have no intention of making friends with Aikido. I want to bury that particular art into the mat, I want to own it. I want it to beg me to leave it alone and go bother Judo.

Krystal Locke
05-16-2014, 11:38 AM
For the past thirty years I have seen and heard that if you neutralize an attacker using Aikido they will become your friend.

Does anyone have an example of this?

dps

Many of the folks I have bounced have come to realize that my security company works for the continued good of all. At least in a Thomas Aquinas sense of the word, this is love. The folks I deal with on a regular basis because they like a particular kind of music or have a favorite bar, or are into watching MMA sometimes have very conflicted relationships with me. They hate the authority they think I have over them (and I certainly dont disabuse them of their false notions...), but they appreciate us stopping them from going to jail or getting seriously injured against their will.

Some call me their friend. Nah, but I will certainly enjoy an event with them as long as they behave. Some are my friend, but only because I know them outside of my security work. Some I profoundly dislike and mistrust for what I think are reasonable reasons like they've hurt my coworkers or they are a repeat bouncee, or they just smell bad (no, really, nothing like having to bounce a guy who hasn't bathed or changed pants in a few weeks and who has thoroughly crapped himself....). Some love to mix it up, so will help us in a brawl, and learn to mitigate their misbehavior.

It would be much better if more of them realized that doing what I ask them to do is way better than doing what Officer Joe asks them to do is way better than doing what Bubba in the yard asks them to do.

Volbeat concert a few weeks ago, great awesome show. I'm patting down the first women coming in, a couple of girls that aint hiding nothing in those clothes, but damn I smell pot. Next lady, can I look in your bag? Sure. Whoa, that smells. Can you open your cig box? UMMMM, ERRRR...... She looks terrified. I do NOT tell her that I cannot arrest her she doesn't ask, but I do tell her straight up that she has three choices. 1. Lose her place in line, and put her weed in her car. 2. Keep her place in line and give me the pot for disposal. 3. Get bounced, not get in, no refunds, no malice, no cops, just no entry. She hands me the pot. Excellent choice. And then, she falls all over me for being the coolest security guard EVOR and she loves me and.... just go enjoy the show, I have about 1500 other chicas to pat down. Have a great night. She finds me after the show and and still LURVES me, pretty much humping my leg for not cuffing her and sending her to jail and beating her to goo. I'll take it. Maybe next time she'll just power a j down in the venue parking lot and leave the baggie at home. That'd help. Dont drive high, smoke out in the lot as long as she's subtle, get to see a great show that's long enough she can even drive home straight.

Win, win. That's more of what aikido is about for me. Getting for all of us to go home after the concert to tell our families how awesome it was.

Freaking Anthrax's guitar player is in Volbeat. Just like the good old times....

Krystal Locke
05-16-2014, 12:09 PM
And, the folks I have actually had to use actual physical aikido waza on, they had no interest in being my friend before or after they were out the door. And they have all gone out the door one way or t'other. Aikido can be powerfully uncomfortable on someone with no ukemi skills and enough free-floating anger to try to hurt strangers. Even if I dont put a painful technique on them, it bugs the hell out of someone with a lot of fight in them when they are wrapped up in complete emotional neutrality and are unable to get one in on us. Sometimes non-resistance causes escalation just as much as resistance does. I think the current lingo is "Haters gonna hate."

James Sawers
05-16-2014, 03:10 PM
And, the folks I have actually had to use actual physical aikido waza on, they had no interest in being my friend before or after they were out the door. And they have all gone out the door one way or t'other. Aikido can be powerfully uncomfortable on someone with no ukemi skills and enough free-floating anger to try to hurt strangers. Even if I dont put a painful technique on them, it bugs the hell out of someone with a lot of fight in them when they are wrapped up in complete emotional neutrality and are unable to get one in on us. Sometimes non-resistance causes escalation just as much as resistance does. I think the current lingo is "Haters gonna hate."

Nothing beats experience when it talks.....:cool:

Janet Rosen
05-17-2014, 05:24 PM
:D
I have no intention of making friends with Aikido. I want to bury that particular art into the mat, I want to own it. I want it to beg me to leave it alone and go bother Judo.

sakumeikan
05-17-2014, 07:15 PM
Hi Folks,
What about the other side of the coin? By that I mean how many times or occasions or how many so called friends in Aikido end up being anything but your friends?Aikido politics for example can destroy long term goodwill/friendships between people.Am I the only person who has experienced this?I think that the vision of Aikido portrayed by O Sensei was fundamentally good ie Lets all learn to live together as one etc.The theory is brilliant but do we practice what we preach?My own view here is No. I guess I am just a cynical old codger. Cheers, Joe.

NagaBaba
05-17-2014, 09:19 PM
For the past thirty years I have seen and heard that if you neutralize an attacker using Aikido they will become your friend.

Does anyone have an example of this?

dps
You are mixing technical aspects of aikido with some pseudo philosophical divagations...nothing good can come from this...

Dan Rubin
05-18-2014, 11:45 AM
This entire discussion has been based upon some confusion, that if you neutralize an attacker using aikido he will become your friend.

No, no, no: If you circumcise an attacker using aikido he will become your friend. This is well-documented, and I can confirm it from personal experience, although I'm afraid you'll have to take my word for it.

CAUTION! I'm referring to post-War aikido. Daito-ryu will leave things, like their ukes, all tangled up.

kewms
05-18-2014, 01:11 PM
Mohel Sensei is particularly known for the surgical precision of his tanto technique?

Katherine

Hilary
05-18-2014, 03:39 PM
I'll just leave this here...seems about right given the turn of events.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/25k29i/the_jewish_samurai/

Krystal Locke
05-18-2014, 07:30 PM
I'll just leave this here...seems about right given the turn of events.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/25k29i/the_jewish_samurai/

So, on a rare Thursday afternoon off about 22-23 years ago, I'm in my favorite used bookstore (Blue Dragon Books, in Ashland, OR) one day, giggling over this book: http://www.amazon.com/Mine-Son-Samurai-Hubert-Bermont/dp/0672630397

I had just started aikido maybe a month, had been several Monday (my only free) nights, and I noticed that the guy had lots of martial arts books. But, no money, so I walk on out without a purchase this time. Gotta get to class in a few, no time to chat. Stoked to get two classes in that week, gonna rank up quickly at that rate.

Dress, get on the mat, stretch, and in walks the bookstore owner, black belt and hakama. He must have been a nidan or an early sandan at the time. Whoa. Who knew?

Teehee. My weird life. I should get myself a copy of that book in honor of Bob. Hadn't thought about that in years and years.

Hilary
05-18-2014, 08:56 PM
Hi Krystal! I am intrigued by the fact that new, it is $106.01 (really, does the extra penny really increase the seller's margin?) but good quality used editions are $0.29 - $35 most under $10; does this book have a freshness date?

Krystal Locke
05-19-2014, 12:37 AM
Hi Krystal! I am intrigued by the fact that new, it is $106.01 (really, does the extra penny really increase the seller's margin?) but good quality used editions are $0.29 - $35 most under $10; does this book have a freshness date?

I didn't even look at the price. Thirty cents sounds good, though. It was a pretty cool book. Not a hundred bucks cool.