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akiy
04-17-2014, 05:58 PM
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Here's a video of Jacques Payet (7th dan, Yoshinkan Aikido) demonstrating at the 58th All Japan Yoshinkan Aikido Demonstration in 2013.

What are your thoughts on this demonstration?

-- Jun

Adam Huss
04-17-2014, 10:17 PM
That's probably one of my favorite demonstrations of Payet Sensei I've seen on Youtube. Excellent examples of ma'ai and shuchu ryoku.

sakumeikan
04-18-2014, 03:54 AM
Dear jun,
Demo is ok if you like Yoshinkan. Not my cup of tea. A bit rigid, and the body check waza again is not my thing.Good camera work. Cheers, Joe.

NagaBaba
04-18-2014, 08:50 AM
I agree, very stiff body, he is trying very hard to copy G. Shioda sensei - not sure it is the best idea...additionaly when doing tenkan he is always going back, specially visible in ura version of the techniques. This indicates for me lack of irimi in his mind. Also he is using a lot his shoulders instead of center.
Also in the beginnig of the demo I didn't like him running across the tatami with his uke, never seen O sensei doing such way. I think the formal entry on the tatami is important to preserve, this is a important part of etiquette, which is one of the pillars of Budo.

Adam Huss
04-18-2014, 10:33 AM
Also in the beginnig of the demo I didn't like him running across the tatami with his uke, never seen O sensei doing such way. I think the formal entry on the tatami is important to preserve, this is a important part of etiquette, which is one of the pillars of Budo.

The point of running on and off the mat is to show a level of humility and respect, as well as display a high level of spirit (like the "shin" in yoshin). Rather than having cool intro music, and slowly sauntering out onto the mat for all to bask in your emanate shihany glory, the idea is to not waste peoples time and show some energy and sprint as if you actually are happy to be there. The mindset that you are honored to be there demonstrating rather than the mindset that its an honor for those watching you to be there.

As far as the appearance of rigidity I can say that is the manifestation of concentrating all of the body's energy into one focal point, there is definitely no 'muscling' going on in the video. The 'body checking' is an example of this, and requires really precise timing and "ai" aspect of aikido. Very high level.

Friends of mine that have trained with Mr. Payet have said its like trying to grab smoke. I know there are people on this forum that have trained with Payet Sensei, and they can certainly speak more authoritatively than I.

PeterR
04-18-2014, 11:31 AM
I like the high energy running on the mat - it sends a positive message.

One thing I found interesting was the little hops seen during the first part of the video. He covered a very small area and did not seem to have very powerful body movement. Then I saw the body check - and I changed my mind. Good demo - interesting way of doing things.

sakumeikan
04-18-2014, 12:25 PM
The point of running on and off the mat is to show a level of humility and respect, as well as display a high level of spirit (like the "shin" in yoshin). Rather than having cool intro music, and slowly sauntering out onto the mat for all to bask in your emanate shihany glory, the idea is to not waste peoples time and show some energy and sprint as if you actually are happy to be there. The mindset that you are honored to be there demonstrating rather than the mindset that its an honor for those watching you to be there.

As far as the appearance of rigidity I can say that is the manifestation of concentrating all of the body's energy into one focal point, there is definitely no 'muscling' going on in the video. The 'body checking' is an example of this, and requires really precise timing and "ai" aspect of aikido. Very high level.

Friends of mine that have trained with Mr. Payet have said its like trying to grab smoke. I know there are people on this forum that have trained with Payet Sensei, and they can certainly speak more authoritatively than I.
Dear Adam,
I do not see how running on .off the tatami shows humility/respect and spirit.Neither have I seen as you put it Senseis basking in 'Shihanry glory???'I have witnessed demos by Tamura, Saito, Yamaguchi, Hosokawa, Shirata Senseis etc At no time did these men saunter onto the tatami , and bask in any glory as you put it.The walked onto the tatami, bowed to the kamisa, their Ukes and did an excellent demo.I never got the impression that the men above were trying to emulate anybody.I must say I saw a ;resemblance 'to Shioda Sensei in one or two points.The hoppity skip/the body checking for example.
You say this is focusing body energy, maybe so .I see rigidity.Just saying.I guess one mans meat is another mans poison.I cannot say I have ever seen an Yoshinkan person demonstrate in a fluid way. Shioda Sensei is /was great.Students .Nevertheless I feel of Yoshinkan Aikido students are somewhat robotic. Cheers, Joe.

Adam Huss
04-18-2014, 01:08 PM
I like the high energy running on the mat - it sends a positive message.

One thing I found interesting was the little hops seen during the first part of the video. He covered a very small area and did not seem to have very powerful body movement. Then I saw the body check - and I changed my mind. Good demo - interesting way of doing things.

Certainly some of those movements may seen odd or even inefficient to some - certainly did to me at one point in time - but I've long learned not to put too much stock in Youtube aikido, and certainly not in video of styles with which I am unfamiliar.

My favorite movement is actually the first one, the finesse and focus required is quite impressive. Having that much power while being that completely relaxed is something of an achievement. Unlike those 'ki throws' you see floating around, there is actually a semblance of logical kinesiology displayed here.

Adam Huss
04-18-2014, 01:17 PM
Dear Adam,
I do not see how running on .off the tatami shows humility/respect and spirit.Neither have I seen as you put it Senseis basking in 'Shihanry glory???'I have witnessed demos by Tamura, Saito, Yamaguchi, Hosokawa, Shirata Senseis etc At no time did these men saunter onto the tatami , and bask in any glory as you put it.The walked onto the tatami, bowed to the kamisa, their Ukes and did an excellent demo.I never got the impression that the men above were trying to emulate anybody.I must say I saw a ;resemblance 'to Shioda Sensei in one or two points.The hoppity skip/the body checking for example.
You say this is focusing body energy, maybe so .I see rigidity.Just saying.I guess one mans meat is another mans poison.I cannot say I have ever seen an Yoshinkan person demonstrate in a fluid way. Shioda Sensei is /was great.Students .Nevertheless I feel of Yoshinkan Aikido students are somewhat robotic. Cheers, Joe.

Joe,

I certainly hope you don't think I was calling out any particular instructor. I have certainly been around demos with flashing lights and music. I'm not going to say there's no merit to it, but its not something that suits me personally. I certainly take no issue with the kind of entrance you describe - that's probably how most people begin a demonstration. I was just trying to provide an explanation behind Mr. Payet's entrance on the mat, and it warms my heart when I see high level instructors displaying that level of humility, passion, and energy.

NagaBaba
04-18-2014, 02:15 PM
The point of running on and off the mat is to show a level of humility and respect, as well as display a high level of spirit (like the "shin" in yoshin). Rather than having cool intro music, and slowly sauntering out onto the mat for all to bask in your emanate shihany glory, the idea is to not waste peoples time and show some energy and sprint as if you actually are happy to be there. The mindset that you are honored to be there demonstrating rather than the mindset that its an honor for those watching you to be there.

As far as the appearance of rigidity I can say that is the manifestation of concentrating all of the body's energy into one focal point, there is definitely no 'muscling' going on in the video. The 'body checking' is an example of this, and requires really precise timing and "ai" aspect of aikido. Very high level.

Friends of mine that have trained with Mr. Payet have said its like trying to grab smoke. I know there are people on this forum that have trained with Payet Sensei, and they can certainly speak more authoritatively than I.

A dojo practice is not a gym, where you run and doing merely physically energetic exercises. Even in the Sport Center, once tatami is there, a dojo appears. A dojo is a special place, some may say a 'sacred' place.
Are you saying that etiquette is a waste of time? :0 In such case you don't understand what Budo is.

One focal point is located in the hara not in the shoulders :)
Then, to be able to transmit his power from center to attackers body one must have a relaxed, flexible body., otherwise he will be holding his power inside of his body. Looking carefully at the uke reactions we can clearly see some difficulty of such transmission.

SteveTrinkle
04-18-2014, 02:23 PM
i've not experienced yoshinkan enough to make any worthwhile comment

Adam Huss
04-18-2014, 03:13 PM
A dojo practice is not a gym, where you run and doing merely physically energetic exercises. Even in the Sport Center, once tatami is there, a dojo appears. A dojo is a special place, some may say a 'sacred' place.
Are you saying that etiquette is a waste of time? :0 In such case you don't understand what Budo is.

One focal point is located in the hara not in the shoulders :)
Then, to be able to transmit his power from center to attackers body one must have a relaxed, flexible body., otherwise he will be holding his power inside of his body. Looking carefully at the uke reactions we can clearly see some difficulty of such transmission.

Etiquette is pretty important to me, but there are different types of etiquette. I always strive to understand the meaning underneath what I am seeing. I always find the minutiae quite fascinating - everything from the proper foot to step on the mat with, to weapons orientation when being stored long term, to being stored in a training environment, how deep to bow, where to look, the pacing of bow compared to the person you are bowing with, etc.

I don't like to comment too much on Youtube aikido videos, as its hard to tell whats going on. I will say Yoshinkan aikido emphasizes being loose and relaxed, and focusing power to one point, generally emanating from center of nage....and that Payet Sensei is one of the senior Yoshinkan instructors.

sakumeikan
04-18-2014, 05:21 PM
Joe,

I certainly hope you don't think I was calling out any particular instructor. I have certainly been around demos with flashing lights and music. I'm not going to say there's no merit to it, but its not something that suits me personally. I certainly take no issue with the kind of entrance you describe - that's probably how most people begin a demonstration. I was just trying to provide an explanation behind Mr. Payet's entrance on the mat, and it warms my heart when I see high level instructors displaying that level of humility, passion, and energy.

Dear Adam,
I certainly do not think you are referring to anyone I know.Certainly not the people I quoted.I also share your viewpoint in relation to flashing lights and music.This type of thing I feel has no place in an Aikido demo.Save the lights and music for the Disco /Dance floor.
All the best, Joe.

Adam Huss
04-18-2014, 05:30 PM
Dear Adam,
I certainly do not think you are referring to anyone I know.Certainly not the people I quoted.I also share your viewpoint in relation to flashing lights and music.This type of thing I feel has no place in an Aikido demo.Save the lights and music for the Disco /Dance floor.
All the best, Joe.

I've always wondered if that's the decision of the demonstrator or the venue. I would not be happy if I was walking out on the mat and the lights cut out, cue spot light and loud music, then commence a demo, without any prior knowledge.

Jonathan
04-22-2014, 11:51 AM
A rather underwhelming performance. Payet's movements were enough of kind with Shioda sensei's to recognize a similarity but were, at the same time, not natural enough to avoid the appearance of clumsy mimicry.

Michael Douglas
04-24-2014, 03:20 PM
Demonstrations like this do damage to anyone contemplating effective Aikido.
The Ukes were dive-bunnies or drunkards : but they were supposed to act like that : there is the problem!
From time to time I like to read Henry Ellis' blog/reminiscences. should be mandatory.

Scott Harrington
05-02-2014, 09:31 AM
Great video of Payet Sensei at a Yoshinkan Demonstration. Mr. Payet is a true gentleman, fun to be around, fluent in at least three languages, has been involved in translating the works of the late Shioda Kancho, and is a kind teacher. He also is a terror on the mat.

I had a short time to train with him and the first time taking ukemi from him is a fine memory. He applied hiji ate (hitting elbow throw). Gently sliding around my attack he moved, and then my body locked up. I said to myself, "if I don't go airborne my arm is going to break." I literally laughed as my body flew thru the air -- beautiful technique.

So, on the comments listed above..

RUNNING. It is a demonstration. It is not in a dojo. The previous group can be seen running off the mat. There is a white flag being held up to show the next demonstrators are ready. It seems Payet Sensei is showing the proper etiquette for THAT EVENT. No spiritual transformation is being made, no O'sensei waiting for the white flag to come down.

I have seen a wide range of demonstrations and the format covers a wide gamut of acceptable appearance. Bad mouth the Yoshinkan for this format not Payet Sensei.

TECHNIQUE. I will let you in on a secret. Payet moves the most I have ever seen anyone to the late Shioda. Does the rest of Yoshinkan move that way - no. They are busy training the student in a certain mode to get to the powerful, stable technique. So, Mr. Payet tones it a little down from Shioda to standard Yoshinkan while at a Yoshinkan demonstration. Who would have guessed?

EVALUATION. Hey, everybody has an opinion. It's just yours is wrong and mine is right (almost a joke there.) Payet is one of the first instructors where I actually felt aiki. Many instructors have moved well, flowing, powerful, controlled but not that mysterious aiki. Go figure.

There is certainly no lack of irmi in Payet's mind. Just maybe a technique you are not familiar with. I just watched a video of Kodo Horikawa demonstrating the back check. Oh, I guess he wasn't that good at irmi either. I am tempted to type in a Jewish word right now.

UKES. Hey, no one was broke and they took some good falls. The dirty little secret (as Kondo kancho of mainline Daito ryu says) is in a real fight no one gets up from a fall. It's a demonstration, they did a good job getting thrown around (I've felt Payet's power and it's like grabbing onto a moving train).

And I hate these stories of in my day we did ukemi uphill and downhill both ways to the dojo' that some like to bring out.

Now, is Yoshinkan aikido my cup of tea -- not anymore. But there is a lot to learn there, it is a rigorous training, basic and advanced principles are espoused and it can be a fun experience. You get out of your training what you put in. And if you are very, very lucky, you get to learn from a teacher like Payet Sensei.

OSU!

Scott Harrington