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Bruce Baker
08-12-2002, 03:27 PM
I was reviewing the new thread, the voice of experience, and with the cap of twenty years of experience in Aikido, it would seem to make it a little club of oldtimers who have allowed the lesser of us who have not been in practice for twenty years to listen in to sage, learned advice.

Could be. But most of the replys I have seen are totally lacking in understanding to combine the sounds of movement, found in kotodama, with the insight of rooting and iron body, or bring to our eyes the existence of Aikido's more deadly aspects that we learn if we go outside of Aikido training, but leave out in Aikido training.

Is the voice of experience an attempt to keep the magicians secret a secret, or in the voice of experience merely a bluff because they just don't know the answer?

I may be considered a radical because I stress knowledge, but practice within safe limits of Aikido's tenents. Still, is there a blanket of fear that covers advice to look out side of Aikido, or is it merely the voice of the maintaining the status quo?

Andy
08-12-2002, 03:54 PM
Poll: What is Bruce's motivation for his post?

1) He's heartbroken that he can't participate in aikido discussions with people with decades more of experience than he does.

2) He's trolling (http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/t/troll.html) like usual.

3) He likes to hear himself talk as it makes him seem more important than he really is in life.

4) He's pissing into the wind.

~~~~~~~~~~

PS: Do you want to ignore Bruce Baker? Click here (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/member2.php?s=&action=addlist&userlist=ignore&userid=1075). 23 users can't be wrong.

rachmass
08-12-2002, 04:07 PM
Yes, his thread made me feel quite angry (and sad that he would attack as such) too. I for one am happy to hear what the VOE has to say, and to keep it restricted to those with the experience. It can be a valuable forum for all of us. So far it hasn't really gotten off the ground, maybe one of the VOE people can make a comment as to Mr. Bakers post.

:ai: :ki: :do:

Kevin Leavitt
08-12-2002, 04:22 PM
interesting concept.

I was reading the post on Kotodama and was excited to see something of a "higher" topic than some of the post we see in the other threads.

I am interested to see what they discuss and what I can learn from it.

Then I was thinking, I would love to participate and ask questions. Isn't that the whole purpose of this list is to teach and learn from each other?

I was also thinking. 20 years experience in Aikido is fine, but I have 20 years of knowledge in things as well, even though it may not be in "aikido". I have about 20 years experience in "budo" both as a career soldier in the military and as a 10 year martial artist and about 15 years in philosophy. With only 6 years experience in Aikido..why does this make me less qualified to have an opinion on the same subjects?

Why put a fence around knowledge only created through Aikido? Is kinda like keeping the gene pool limited.

I can certainly appreciate what is trying to be done with it, and I sincerely hope that it will encourage our senior members to contribute things of value to the community.

I think we should also consider that it could become a "clubby good ole boy" environment where they pat each other on the back without critique from us "less experienced" persons.

I have seen this happen in a few dojos, especially when they have a reputation to uphold. You know the type, will only work with "approved ukes" who know their magic, surround themselves with things that insulate them from the world, etc.

I am not trying to bash the idea, Actually I welcome it....just another perspective to consider!

I would like to learn more about the kotodama, in fact last night I dusted off my Bill Gleason book and started reading it again.

Maybe we can all read what they write and then start other threads that discuss the thread!

rachmass
08-12-2002, 04:30 PM
Hi Kevin,

you do have a lot of experience and I am sure have a very valid point in wanting to share it. I think Jun just had to make some cut-off as to what would constitute this group, and I am sure it isn't meant to be elitist or anything. I would love to participate in the group (although nothing has come up that I have any contribution to), but alas, even after being an active aikidoka since 1982, had a kid and took off two years.... :blush:

I am sure that many of us have a lot to say and contribute, and the rest of the forums are open to us.

A suggestion: when one of the VOE threads start, why not just run a thread that the rest of us can participate in, in parallel to this group.

DaveO
08-12-2002, 05:27 PM
I would surmise the reason the VOE section was included in the forums was so that such experienced individuals could share comments and ideas without having to deal with uninformed weenies posting irrelevant nonsense. (I'm not being cynical - I'm not going to dig up examples from this site, but I remember a cosmology site where a group of cosmologists were discussing the possibility of extraterrestrial life. The thread was almost impossible to follow, with the hordes of people writing in to add their 2 cents about how Government was taken over by hostile aliens and about the 'real' reason for crop circles...not very valid, but very vocal.)I have no problem with it therefore; I'd like to see what they come up with, but I do have 2 conditions:

1) I believe that since that forum is there, those allowed to post in it have a responsibility to the rest of us to provide information and insight worthy of their years - simply using it as a private club should be actively discouraged.

2) Posters to the VOE board should be willing and prepared to discuss the ideas and opinions expressed on the board with the rest of us in open forum as well. Kevin's right; less experienced folk have valuable ideas as well, and should have a way to express them.

Perhaps, if one is reading the VOE board and has a comment he/she would like to make, he could start a thread entitled: "disagreement to a VOE point", or some such.

Just my opinion, thanx!

Dave

Steven
08-12-2002, 05:54 PM
So .. two snakes were crawling down the road. One asked the other "Are we poisonious?". The other replied "I don't know, why do you ask?". The first snake replied "Because I just bit my lip!" *** rim shot ***

Oh wait ... sorry ... wrong thread ... :\
Perhaps, if one is reading the VOE board and has a comment he/she would like to make, he could start a thread entitled: "disagreement to a VOE point", or some such.
I think this is acceptable. Nothing wrong with starting an open sub-form to the VOE forum as along as everyone understands the VOE poster has the right not to anwer should he/she decide not to. I would highly discourage that, but it is their right.

Let's keep it civil and mind our manners and I think it'll all work just fine.

Heiwa ...

jeda
08-12-2002, 06:23 PM
Where I work, I deal with a membership base on a regular basis. There is your standard $50 membership that buys you admission, a smile and a thank you. Then there's our $100 membership that is going to get you a bit more butt kissing from our staff.

Keep reading, I have a point.

So at our annual member's night, the $100 level membership receives their exclusive lounge that has a few more activities in it - music, a clown, some story tellers etc etc.

Of course, the day after member's night, there are several complaints from the $50 members that they couldn't participate in the extra activities. Cry me a river, put a bit more gently, was our response.

I see this situation in the same light. I don't have a lot of experience and 90% of the time, I don't have anything great to say. Having 20 or more years of experience may not make you the cream of the crop, but it makes you more experienced.

As for making the exclusivity at 20 years in aikido, Jun is right for setting a limit. I've got 22 years experiece at being a girl, but you don't hear me crying that I don't have my own forum.

You feel you may be well over qualified to participate, but the fact of the matter is, it isn't up to you to decide. The parameters have been set, and if you don't fit quite yet get over it.

My apologies if I offend anyone. I get tired of people whining when they don't meet the guidelines and people who make exceptions simply to shut them up. What can I say, I'm jaded by our membership program.

Mike Collins
08-12-2002, 07:41 PM
I kind of like the idea of one area where "pissing contests" will probably be minimized. It'll sure be interesting to see if they're any more civilized than we who are less experienced.

PeterR
08-12-2002, 08:04 PM
I love to debate, discuss, poke and prod. I would ask a question of my seniors and half way through say "sure but". Finally one of the sensei clearly said "its not about but - sometimes you should just listen".

A few points.

Everyone has an opinion whether they have value or not is another matter.

Everyone thinks their opinion is as valuable as everyone elses.

20 years does not mean you have a clue to what your talking about but it sure increases the odds.

Disagree with something in VOE - well start a new thread.

I'ld like people to notice that the list maintainer set the bar above his own experience. Good enough for Jun, good enough for me.

Really not sure if the VOE forum will go anywhere - I think 20 years is a bit limiting. Then again it is not up to me.

guest1234
08-12-2002, 08:05 PM
Hey, we've got the 'executive' lounge right here: Music is the fellow who occasionally posts such interesting poetry; story-telling, hmmm, I think I'd go with that fellow who worships Pumpkins; and clowns! well, there's me :D, and perhaps one other member most of us could name!

virginia_kyu
08-12-2002, 09:25 PM
Poll: What is Bruce's motivation for his post?

1) He's heartbroken that he can't participate in aikido discussions with people with decades more of experience than he does.

2) He's trolling (http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/t/troll.html) like usual.

3) He likes to hear himself talk as it makes him seem more important than he really is in life.

4) He's pissing into the wind.

~~~~~~~~~~

PS: Do you want to ignore Bruce Baker? Click here (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/member2.php?s=&action=addlist&userlist=ignore&userid=1075). 23 users can't be wrong.
After reading Bruce's thread named "Jesus is dead, think for yourself" and many jackass posts like it, I have to say that #2 and #3 suit him well. I am also going to add him to my ignore list.

MaylandL
08-12-2002, 10:06 PM
...

I am sure that many of us have a lot to say and contribute, and the rest of the forums are open to us.

A suggestion: when one of the VOE threads start, why not just run a thread that the rest of us can participate in, in parallel to this group.
Sounds like a plan to me and inviting the commentators on the VOE thread to add their responses.

Some of their comments would certainly merit further reflection and consideration.

Happy training all

rachmass
08-12-2002, 10:24 PM
In reading the posts that are occuring on the VOE forum right now, I see an excellent example of a discussion without rancour. The participants may not necessarily agree with each other in all points, but they are respectful of each others opinions, and put forth their own in a detailed yet polite manner. I am very happy to see this forum start to pick up some momentum, and hope to see it blossom in the future. It was a great idea of Juns to have something like this, and we all owe him our thanks. :cool:

Mares
08-12-2002, 10:26 PM
I think that forum is a great idea. From my point of view it allows me to read some serious threads without the cluter. So far there has only been one thread and I learnt something from each post in it, how about that a 100% strike rate. For that I thank the two posters Chris and Chuck and I hope you both continue to post and provide your insights into Aikido.

For those who don't agree with the forum, you do not have to read it. And please don't spoil it for the rest of us, please let them post so we can continue to learn, without the clutter.

Regards

DaveO
08-13-2002, 04:31 AM
Poll: What is Bruce's motivation for his post?

1) He's heartbroken that he can't participate in aikido discussions with people with decades more of experience than he does.

2) He's trolling (http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/t/troll.html) like usual.

3) He likes to hear himself talk as it makes him seem more important than he really is in life.

4) He's pissing into the wind.

~~~~~~~~~~

PS: Do you want to ignore Bruce Baker? Click here (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/member2.php?s=&action=addlist&userlist=ignore&userid=1075). 23 users can't be wrong.
Hey, I don't like the guy any more than anyone else, but keep in mind: whether or not we like the post or poster, he has the same right to express his opinions as anyone else, so long as those opinions are not directly offensive to others. His posts are not, to be precise, directly offensive, just concieted and pompous. Keep in mind as well that he may not be aware that his posts are being taken as such, but even if he is, using the 'Ignore' feature is poor judgement; we can learn a lot from others' failings; most notably how to spot and avoid such failings in ourselves.

Or at least, you can get a good laugh out of it.

Whatever the case, I don't believe its appropriate to directly ridicule another member, whomever he may be.

Dave

mike lee
08-13-2002, 04:40 AM
Maybe Chis Li couldn't take the heat, so he found a way to get out of the kitchen.

Living in anger :mad:

Living in constant rage :grr:

Living in a cage :eek:

PeterR
08-13-2002, 04:52 AM
Ah ha - do I detect a conspiracy. :p
Maybe Chis Li couldn't take the heat, so he found a way to get out of the kitchen.

Living in anger :mad:

Living in constant rage :grr:

Living in a cage :eek:

guest1234
08-13-2002, 05:57 AM
There are those I fairly regularly disagree with--those I wouldn't use 'ignore' on---but when some border on public announcements of paranoid psychosis, I notify those I think should know, and then officially stop listening. I for one do not want to have to worry about any legal responsibility if something were to happen.

Jim ashby
08-13-2002, 06:22 AM
One thing I would say is that there are those people that, if there is a club which they can't join, say "didn't want to play anyway". I will participate in the VOE forum.......in about eight years time. Until then I will read what is posted on the forum, digest it and make up my own mind about what I have read.

BTW Bruce isn't on my ignore list, I need a laugh every now and then.

Have fun.

mike lee
08-13-2002, 06:46 AM
ASSUME: To do so makes an ASS out of U and ME. :freaky:

Chris Li
08-13-2002, 06:47 AM
Maybe Chis Li couldn't take the heat, so he found a way to get out of the kitchen.

Living in anger :mad:

Living in constant rage :grr:

Living in a cage :eek:
Huh?

Anger and rage?

Well, I do have some opinions (who doesn't?), but I don't recall taking gratuitous snipes at anyone recently...

Actually, I live, not in a cage, but in a nice little house in the suburbs of Tokyo - the kitchen does get pretty hot, but that's because we had tenpura tonight :).

Best,

Chris

mike lee
08-13-2002, 06:58 AM
Wow! Come down from the dizzying heights to talk to us common folk. :freaky:

Have the cicada gone silent yet? :do:

DaveO
08-13-2002, 07:55 AM
Ah, Mike...

I may be dense here, but if you have a point to make in your last few posts, would you please make it?

rachmass
08-13-2002, 08:04 AM
Mike,

I don't know if you have a personal issue with Chris, but maybe it is best to discuss anything you have with him privately, not on a website open to all to see.

It is important to keep our comments here respectful of one another and not start sniping at each other. Lets be mature and civil (me included).

:D

SeiserL
08-13-2002, 09:11 AM
The voice of experience and the voice of inexperience. We all choose where we participate and who will listen to. Things are as they are.

Until again,

Lynn

akiy
08-13-2002, 09:29 AM
It is important to keep our comments here respectful of one another and not start sniping at each other. Lets be mature and civil (me included).
Yes -- the first rule of the AikiWeb Forums is "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forums members with respect." I won't mention names, but there are those in this thread who have clearly transgressed this most common sense of rules here.

If you are unable to share your thoughts here on the AikiWeb Forums respectfully, please find another venue for your words. Repeat offenders may find their account disabled without warning.

-- Jun

mike lee
08-13-2002, 11:47 AM
Ah, Mike...

I may be dense here, but if you have a point to make in your last few posts, would you please make it?


Many of my students were not even born when I began training in aikido. I began studying various forms of martial arts 10 years before I began aikido training in 1977 at the University of Wisconsin, receiving frequent instruction from Akira Tohei Shihan, among many others.

There are a small group of individuals on this forum who, for various reasons, espouse using violence in their practice to compensate for their lack of understanding or skill in aikido. I question whether some of these individuals have ever practiced aikido for any length of time under a qualified shihan. It also seems that some of them have even made up their own art, but still use the aikido name for their own personal profit.

Nevertheless, these individuals actually attempt to instruct young members of the aikido community on this forum and elsewhere based their personal views, rather than spending the time and energy required to gain a true understanding of the art of peace.

The cultivation of large egos by various means, along with gathering a host of illusions, will only serve as roadblocks in the development of a true understanding of aikido, both individually and collectively.

DaveO
08-13-2002, 01:10 PM
Hmm. Interesting response. Please allow me, in my own humble, unenlightened manner, to answer point by point.
Many of my students were not even born when I began training in aikido. I began studying various forms of martial arts 10 years before I began aikido training in 1977 at the University of Wisconsin, receiving frequent instruction from Akira Tohei Shihan, among many others.
OK, fair enough - you have more than twenty years in Aikido. This raises questions I'll cover in a bit, but in the meantime, you seem to have a hostile attitude to one or two in the VOE forum - why? Is your 20 years better than their 20 years, or is there an argument you have not seen fit to inform us of? Also, let me state a personal viewpoint; it seems to me your past few posts, for instance:
Maybe Chis Li couldn't take the heat, so he found a way to get out of the kitchen.

Living in anger

Living in constant rage

Living in a cage
or
Wow! Come down from the dizzying heights to talk to us common folk.

Have the cicada gone silent yet?
can hardly be considered mature, intelligent commentary from a man of your stated experience.
There are a small group of individuals on this forum who, for various reasons, espouse using violence in their practice to compensate for their lack of understanding or skill in aikido. I question whether some of these individuals have ever practiced aikido for any length of time under a qualified shihan.
Forgive me, but I see very few, if any, posters here arguing for taking the violent path, unless one argues from a point of extreme political correctness. I could be mistaken; if you could please direct me to one post where the poster espouses violence in the use of Aikido, I would be grateful. In any event, your agression was aimed at the VOE forum, and as of this writing, no post in that forum condoned violence. Therefore, this point is rendered effectively null. As to the second part of this point, while you have every right to question, it could hardly be considered wise to do so simply because they have different ideas of Aikido than you, given the widely-differing ideas of aikidoka worldwide, and the disparate nature of the many aikido styles.
Nevertheless, these individuals actually attempt to instruct young members of the aikido community on this forum and elsewhere based their personal views rather than spending the time and energy required to gain a true understanding of the art of peace.
Egad! You mean people without your vast experience, wisdom and opinions would actually do something so outrageously impertinent as to help others? Shocking; truly shocking, what this world's come to.

Now, when you say "...a true understanding of the art of peace", what do you mean? YOUR understanding perhaps? O-Sensei's? I personally believe that Aikido is something different to each practicioner; in a philosophical question of this nature, basic common sense should tell us that there can be no one correct answer. In other words, who the heck are YOU, or I, or any one person to say someone has "a true understanding of the art of peace"?
The cultivation of large egos by various means, along with gathering a host of illusions, will only serve as roadblocks in the development of a true understanding of aikido, both individually and collectively.
Mike, I agree with you completely. Therefore, in an effort to help the collective develop their understanding, let me suggest that you begin by looking at your own ego. You are, after all, a twenty-plus year veteran of Aikido; you should be taking a leading role in these discussions, helping us, guiding us, not dropping nasty little juvenile, snide comments here and there.

Aikido was meant as a means to bring an attacker back into harmony with ki - I have seen little of that philosophy from you on this thread. For someone who has been studying since '77, and who has a true understanding of the art of peace, I would have expected better.

Interesting.

mike lee
08-13-2002, 01:39 PM
"Forgive me, but I see very few, if any, posters here arguing for taking the violent path..."

I know a student of Morihei Ueshiba's who was also a golden gloves boxer who integrates boxing techniques with his Aikido and does so very well, thank you, "arts of violence" or not. M. Ueshiba practiced with a sword (but he I'm sure that he was very peaceful as he sliced his partners into tiny pieces...), he practiced with a bayonet - how "non-violent" is that?

akiy
08-13-2002, 01:55 PM
As this thread has quickly devolved into personal issues and squabbles, I am closing it.

For people who wish to continue with the violence/non-violence aspect of the last few posts, please head over to the following thread where the text that Mike Lee quoted.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2087

-- Jun

Bruce Baker
08-16-2002, 03:52 PM
I apologise for those who are offended.

This post was meant to do two things. Get the voice of experience to talk about a subject, then bring the best questions out into the genearal public. I haven't seen that happen, yet.

My second point was to bring to light that John Stevens, author and teacher, is continueing his sharing of knowledge as to the sounds of Kotodama. Whether he has approached the subject of using sounds for healing, movement, or spiritual insight, he has only alluded to using them for spiritual insight ... at least in the three times I have met and talked to him.

Lastly, by wanderings have come across using the sounds which are found in Kotodama for movement. I knew that certain sounds affect the mental and spiritual wellbeing of human beings, but movement was a new one on me.

So how about it. Anyone out there know more than this?