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Stuck
02-05-2014, 03:59 PM
a person in the dojo of higher rank than you who is muttering stuff, including swear words, under their breath, occasionally out of frustration on their part, because they cannot believe that I do not "get" certain things as fast as they do.

The first time i just let it slide. Tonight this person actually swore, not necessarily at me but under their breath but loud enough for me to hear it since i was their uke and it happened as i got up. Not being totally %100 sure of what was said - because they are foreigners and not natives of the country i live in - but it sure sounded like "fucking hell" no matter how you disguise it with an accent, I said i learn slow to them after i got up. I left it at that but it has been eating at me ever since and i dont know what to do.

I show up for every class and put the effort in but maybe that is what is causing it. I go three times a wee. Maybe i am just trying to hard to get it right and need to back off. I dont know.

Now, the way i see it, it is a bad outcome for me either way and i dont like it. They can deny it by saying they did not say that. And if i confront them all that will do is sour the relationship and i sure as heck dont want to train with somebody like that. In our school we are more or less forced to work with people and there is no way out of it as it is the sensei's that pair groups. I will just leave and go someplace else. I really dont need that crap. I praise this person when i see them do good and have always shown respect by bowing and thanking.

I can leave it at that and make nothing of it but it really got to me and my confidence is already knocked because of other reasons.

I need some help on this please

Janet Rosen
02-05-2014, 04:13 PM
A couple of thoughts:

Is there any possibility he is cursing at himself for not doing something as well as he wanted?

Are you getting negative feedback from other seniors? Or is it just this fellow who has an attitude problem? Any advice I might offer would be really dependent on your reply because you indicate there are other things affecting your self-confidence....and many of the responses I can think of are based on this student being an outlier in an otherwise ok dojo, which calls for you to keep your inner balance and respond with humor...whereas if the dojo as a whole is posing a problem that's really different...so I won't say more until/unless you can offer more context ...

Stuck
02-05-2014, 04:38 PM
Both times this happened it was right after i got up and , or, did not "get it" when practicing with this person. I am a white belt wit two months or so and they have been red since i started. I do not think that this person was cursing at themselves.

I should have said excuse me right then and there tonight and that probably would have ended it but i did not.

No negative feedback from anybody else other than you need to do this and do it this way which is to be expected. I can handle being told i am not doing it right and this is how to do it. I will even bow after that out of respect for trying to teach me. That is not the issue.

Sofar it is just this one person and it has happened twice since i have been there and i have been there two months. I do not want this to blow up. It is their frustration for me and not mine that caused this person to say that.

Reason my confidence is knocked a bit because of previous trauma prior to starting aikido and the way i was brought up.

I am not confrontational and am afraid of hurting people in the dojo so i go slow and try not to hurt them. I try to get the technique though but i really do struggle with some of the red belt moves even after having done them now for a few hours.

Maybe i am just expecting too much of myself and they are expecting too much of me as well. I am in no rush to get red. I want to know this stuff and i could care less if i stay white all the way to black belt. This matters not to me. Sure it is nice to see progress but i am doing this to learn.

In the beginning every time i got a new partner there would be different things shown to me it seems. Some tried to just show me the basic shomen uchi ikkajo osae ich with not too much emphasis on the legs. The next time it was wrong since i did not do the correct legwork. So i try to do the legwork right and then find out that i am not extending Ki on the hand and turning it in towards center. Most of my issues where just being taught bit by bit the right way of doing it and i can see that now. But i still don't get some things.

I just do not want to think about this person critizing me like that and that is what that was, i think.

lbb
02-05-2014, 06:18 PM
It sounds like a difficult situation. I don't envy you. I have to say, it seems like you've come up with a very elaborate story -- all without talking to this person. You could be 100% right about what's going on, but honestly, with a story that detailed, you're most likely getting a big chunk of it wrong. You know some things; we on Aikiweb know less than that. Your partner knows the rest. I don't see how you can hope to resolve a conflict without speaking with the person you've got a conflict with, the sooner the better.

Another thing to consider, re: "i still don't get some things" -- the experience of constantly finding new things you're doing wrong is a large part of aikido training, especially in the beginning (further down the road, it becomes mixed in with finding old things that you're still doing wrong). If you were mostly going along feeling confident that you were doing things right, that would be a danger sign! This is what martial arts training is like, and most people don't find it to their liking. The frustration of constantly having a new level to reach, rather than being able to rest on your laurels, is an experience that not many people can tolerate. You will always "still not get some things". There will always be someone who's better than you. Being honest with yourself, is that something you can learn to be comfortable with?

Stuck
02-05-2014, 06:46 PM
I agree with you ibb and the more i think and the more time has passed the more i am thinking that she could have just said what she did out of pain from standing up or something like that. But a pain inspired "effing heck" sounds different than what i heard which was a muffled, quit and soft under the breath type of "effing heck". This could not have been as a result of me being too hard on the uke either as i far too soft on people out of fear of hurting them.

I dont know. I am very sensitive to that kind of criticism if indeed it was directed my way. I will let it go and hope it does not happen again. What was said is out of this persons character as well from what i have seen of them so this makes it ever more strange. What i do not want is animosity or bad feelings towards each other on the mat. I can let this go even though i ate me up earlier.

Time away did make a difference and made me think that it could have been pain and totally unrelated. That is the benefit of thinking and having the time to do it. Maybe i just made a rushed decision to believe that it was directed towards me when it wasn't. Maybe it was directed at me. One thing is sure. If there is a next time i will question them as far as what they meant if i hear anything like that again.

Thanks for letting me vent i guess

Stuck
02-05-2014, 06:56 PM
I am far from confident when it comes to stuff since i know i get lots wrong and only a fool would be confident then. But then again i am a white belt. If i knew what i was doing then i would not be a white belt. I am a humble learner and i know i make mistakes. I am not over confident by any stretch of the imagination.

I could spent the next year or two just learning the stuff for red belt and still not get it right on the day of testing. During shomen uchi ikkajo there is usually one thing that i am forgeting be it footwork, forgetting to ki my hand .............

It's ok. For me it's the joy of learning and doing things that keeps me coming back even if i look like a fool who does still not know what they are doing. I still enjoy it. I have never done any MA at all. Nor have i done anything remotely close to it that also involves great feats of coordination that could have helped me.

I just shut up and train. Every week. Even if i get things wrong.

Anyway...thank you

lbb
02-06-2014, 06:47 AM
I agree with you ibb and the more i think and the more time has passed the more i am thinking that she could have just said what she did out of pain from standing up or something like that. But a pain inspired "effing heck" sounds different than what i heard which was a muffled, quit and soft under the breath type of "effing heck". This could not have been as a result of me being too hard on the uke either as i far too soft on people out of fear of hurting them.

Again, this is an elaborate story. Can you try reversing the roles for a minute? Imagine someone else making up a story like this about something you'd done -- a casual remark, a look, something like that. Imagine someone else deciding what you "could not have" meant by it and what you "could not have" experienced in that situation, and judging you accordingly. Imagine that they've decided all kinds of things about your attitude and your character. How does it feel? Does it perhaps feel as if you'd like to have a chance to tell your side of the story, rather than the other party making it up for you and deciding that things "could not have been" any different?

I dont know. I am very sensitive to that kind of criticism if indeed it was directed my way.

And if it wasn't directed your way, if it wasn't criticism at all? Being "very sensitive" to bad data is a sure way to come to a lot of incorrect conclusions.

I will let it go and hope it does not happen again. What was said is out of this persons character as well from what i have seen of them so this makes it ever more strange. What i do not want is animosity or bad feelings towards each other on the mat. I can let this go even though i ate me up earlier.

Letting it eat you up was a mistake. Maybe you can "let it go", but I predict if this happens again, both the previous incidents will come right back up with interest. And you still won't know what's going on. You'll still be "eaten up" by your own story about someone else's behavior. Because, make no mistake, right now it's your story alone that's eating you.

Time away did make a difference and made me think that it could have been pain and totally unrelated. That is the benefit of thinking and having the time to do it. Maybe i just made a rushed decision to believe that it was directed towards me when it wasn't. Maybe it was directed at me. One thing is sure. If there is a next time i will question them as far as what they meant if i hear anything like that again.

I wouldn't wait for the next time. Talk to this person now, and listen to what they say.

Brian Gillaspie
02-06-2014, 08:31 AM
Sofar it is just this one person and it has happened twice since i have been there and i have been there two months. I do not want this to blow up. It is their frustration for me and not mine that caused this person to say

For me personally if it only happened twice and I was not completely clear what or why it was said I would let it go. Maybe they were mad at themselves for taking a bad fall...I've done that many times.

If you think you need to address it then I would follow Mary's advice and deal with it now. If it is bothering you as much as your posts indicate then I think you are just going to be stressed out waiting for something bad that may or may not ever happen again.

Rob Watson
02-06-2014, 11:11 AM
2 months? Give it time. I find some beginners, when performing technique, try to be over protective and even attempt to hold uke up so as not to hurt them ... this is remarkably dangerous for everyone.

I've been going at it since 1992 and still get things wrong more often than not it seems. You get used to it and move on. Non attachment applies to the negative as well as the positive - let it go.

Janet Rosen
02-06-2014, 01:41 PM
Let it go. Even IF it was a reaction to something you did or did not do....that is HER problem, not your's. Kill her with kindness: treat her with the cordial respect you show all others in the dojo and that you would like to receive. Whether or not she learns from your example, you cannot be responsible for, but you will know you are demonstrating being the best student you can, which is all you can do.

Krystal Locke
02-06-2014, 11:58 PM
I cuss at myself for my crap ukemi, crap zanshin, generally crap aikido. All my dojo pals but for my partner take it in stride, shee thinks I am cussing at her. Pain in the ass. Cant a girl kiai quietly once in a while?

It almost certainly is not about you. Talk to them about it the next time it happens. Dont let it affect your training much, other than to just ask what's up when cussy nage is cussing.

Eva Antonia
02-07-2014, 12:51 AM
Dear anonymous,

for me it's as for Krystal, only more on beginner's level - I constantly swear and draw angry faces because there are so many things that don't turn out as they should. Most of my dojo mates became familiar with "Scheiße!" and "Hasssiktir!", which are the appropriate exclamations in these circumstances for me. And yes, it happened also that I got the impression one or the other uke thought the abuse was directed at him, and it happened more than one time that I apologised and said, no, it was directed at myself, at the technique and at aikido as such.

I wouldn't think too much of it if I were you. Not everyone has the same temper and patience. We accept to be confronted with our own inadequateness at every single training lesson; some take it with Christian humility or zen attitude, and some others are exasperated and angry. I very rarely saw people taking it out against their training partner. If you are somewhere in the middling kyu ranks, you are used to white belts grasping the concepts very slowly, and you are still used to grasping very slowly yourself. So sometimes something goes wrong, and you swear like "fucking hell!" or anything else that slips out easily and provides an adequate non-violent outlet for your wrath - but without any bad intention in most cases.

All the best,

Eva

James Sawers
02-07-2014, 02:02 PM
Sorry, but am I the only one here that sees a person taking up a martial art, but is concerned about his hurt feelings, as odd.....????

Dave de Vos
02-07-2014, 02:47 PM
Sorry, but am I the only one here that sees a person taking up a martial art, but is concerned about his hurt feelings, as odd.....????

I think for many people hurt feelings are harder to deal with than physical pain, so I don't find this odd at all.

Stuck
02-07-2014, 05:07 PM
I asked this person tonight if i hurt them on Wednesday's class and was that the reason they cussed. They said no. I pressed further and asked if it was my inability to "get it" that they swore and they said yes.

I did suspect that it was directed towards me and my instinct was correct.

I accidentally posted this response while logged in and some of you may know my persona. I am fine with this however i would like for this to remain "nameless". Mods deleted the named response, i think.I am so used to logging in first and am not really concerned, too much, about giving my name away anymore. There is a chance the person in question reads this but not likely as english is not their main language. Nonetheless i want this to remain anonymous.

I think Janet's response is the most sound. Just be an example for somebody that swears on the mat and treats people like that. I do not think it is my job to change their behavior even though she wants to change mine rather vigorously.

On the mat i treat people like i want to be treated. I was welcomed with real warmth and that was a wonderful feeling for somebody who lacks confidence and is shy. On the mat aikido has had the ability to help me change myself into a person i want to be. On the mat i get a kick out of all the customs and showing each other respect by bowing. I dont overdo it but i do enjoy it.

For some of you aikido is just some "thing" you do a couple of times a week to stay fit. For some it is for self defense. For some it is a means of getting to socialize with people. For some it is all of the above.

Aikido has helped me in so many ways i would have trouble listing them as the list is getting long. I am no longer as impulsive as i was. My confidence is growing. When you have been in the pit of despair and want to end your life because you think that is the only way out having something to live for is the light that was kept away for so long.

Sorry, but am I the only one here that sees a person taking up a martial art, but is concerned about his hurt feelings, as odd.....????

You can beat me senseless. You can make me bleed but the wounds will heal. You can give me bruises but they will go away, eventually.

Hurt me emotionally and that bruise will stay a long time unless dealt with. Yes, i care about my feelings and you should too.

We all are taking aikido for our own reasons and i have mine. I was in a very dark deep place for most of my life due to the way i was brought up and the way i was treated as a kid so when i see frustration, anger, or whatever you want to call it come my way simply because i do not live up to their expectations it hurts.

I am not there to live up to your expectations of me. I will learn at my own pace but not having the confidence to deal with people on that level can be painful hence i came here to ask for help. I was not always able to ask for help. Aikido is helping me build myself up again. I have seen, and felt, some terrible stuff when i grew up. Stuff that i wish nobody would ever go through. I have a very hard time trusting people but now we are getting into some weird realm that probably should not be aired here as i am dealing with this somewhere else :)

Aikido has changed my life, if not saved it, and i am thankful for it. I know it sounds incredible but it is.

Thank you for your time

Janet Rosen
02-07-2014, 05:56 PM
Well said.

Mary Eastland
02-08-2014, 07:21 AM
Hey Stuck,

I really appreciate how you just expressed yourself. Thank you.

The person who is muttering may think it is about you...but it is not. It really is that person's frustration with not being able to deal with the now. That person is not as enlightened as you are yet because that person is blaming you for their own feelings. Try to be patient with that person if you want to.

I hope you continue your training...my training has helped me and continues to help me deal with my past and my present.

Mary Eastland
02-08-2014, 07:23 AM
Sorry, but am I the only one here that sees a person taking up a martial art, but is concerned about his hurt feelings, as odd.....????

Hi James,

Odd? Or just different? When we meet ourselves on the mat it can be painful. We can choose to look and change or look away and explain. It really takes a lot of courage. Maybe you are just not there yet.

Krystal Locke
02-08-2014, 09:14 PM
Alrighty then. You have already done the hard part and got the information you needed. Yup, sempai's cussing and judgement was indeed at and about you. Sorta.

Mary's spot on, sempai's behavior is about sempai. If sempai is doing something you find unsafe or cant train with, tell her. We all have different comfort levels and if she actually impinges upon yours, good self defense suggests squeaking about it. If you really dont think the convo would go well, talk to sensei about it. The word sensei means "I've been through this shit before and I am here to help you through it."

Now, if one of my sempai (and I have plenty) cusses at me about me and my performance, it is because they know I can hear the message in the profanity. That's because they know me pretty damn well. They know I appreciate the human connection, intensity, and honesty that is all wound up in "Damn, Krystal, you ok? Because the ukemi you just took was some fucked up bullshit. That shiho nage wouldn't move a fly. What the hell are you doing, smoking crack?" Even my sensei has straight up actually told me my aikido sucks. When it sucks. But I joined the dojo with a fully ripened vocabulary and it took everyone about 5 seconds to see that my blue language was just emphasis and decoration, accurate description, hardly ever personal. Freed them up to tell me the truth as they understand it. Helps my learning for them to speak my language.

Speaking of language, I am finding it odd that your sempai is cussing about you at you in their second language. That's a really risky move on sempai's part. It may be that she doesn't get that the nifty bad words she learned have more impact in your culture than in hers. She might not even know exactly what the words mean. She may think she's being cool and personable. You could pull off a sweet tenkan next time she cusses at you. Ask her how she'd say the same thing in her native language.

charyuop
02-09-2014, 06:57 AM
I personally do not justify cussing doing class as ann appropriate thing to do. I see it as a lack of respect towards the art, the teacher and the person I am working with. Sure I get frustrated for doing things wrong as well, but using bad words doesn't help do things right.

I agree that you should talk to the person and clear things out. Above all since it seems you are working with the same person all the time (I thought in aikido you practice with everyone, but that might differ from dojo to dojo).
Dear anonymous, you have to understand one thing about aikido. It is not the attacker that learns the technique and the defender who is your dummy. You learn both when you are nage and when you are uke. When you receive a technique as uke, feel what is happening. Study the attacker movements. Try to keep your center the whole time, don't just be passive. Think that if it was a matter of life you would not just give up, sure let nage work, but it does not mean just be jerked around.
Once you understand this concept, you can understand that an experienced uke can help a beginner nage in directing him/her towards the right direction. So just saying you suck does not show a good partner work. Like in the ikkyo example you did. I can be a rock to show you that you are doing it wrong and when I feel you are adjusting correctly I can work guiding you the right path. That way I learn myself how to correct that kind of mistake.

But first thing, go talk to that guy. If he was indeed addressing to you, you can always ask sensei to change partner.

Krystal Locke
02-09-2014, 06:07 PM
I personally do not justify cussing doing class as ann appropriate thing to do. I see it as a lack of respect towards the art, the teacher and the person I am working with. Sure I get frustrated for doing things wrong as well, but using bad words doesn't help do things right.



You clearly haven't heard any of my sensei's jokes, then. Respect comes in a wide variety of packages. A dojo mate from way back found himself somehow miraculously in an elevator alone with Hulk Hogan, of all people. Doug is not huge, but he was a wily midkyu at the time, and Hulk Hogan is actually ginormous. Doug didn't want to be rude and not acknowledge his good fortune of getting an elevator trip with Hulk, so he grinned, sidled up beside Mr. Hogan and said....... "WUSS." Doug says Hogan laughed, shook Doug's hand, and they had a nice talk about ukemi for a few floors. There was respect there.

I was working a concert, couple thousand people I had to pat down. A woman rolls up in a wheelchair, one of those motorized deals for folks with very little function and physical control. Guy behind her says "You gonna be a jerk and pat her down too?" Hell yeah I am. I pat her down, she's got nothing. I ask her about her backpack, guy behind her is getting bitchy at me for not giving the poor crippled girl a free pass. I search her backpack, and it's got a fat baggie full of doobs. I tell her straight up, like anyone else, " I dont care if you have a card, you CANNOT bring that shit in here. Give it up or take it back to your car." She groans but puts the chair in reverse, takes her weed back to her ride. Everyone else was shocked that poor crippled girl who was brave enough to come to a concert had a lot of grass on her, and they were more surprised that I was somehow rude enough to tell her she couldn't get in with it. She rolls back in 5 minutes later, and I search her again. She's clean, her bag is clean, her chair is clean. And she says to me, "Thank you for taking me seriously. You are the only security person in years who has had enough respect for me to actually search me." I gave her the same treatment I give anyone I pat down because she had the exact same capability as anyone to make trouble. I'm not going to look for her in a fight or crowdsurfing, but I'm sure as shit making sure she doesn't have any guns, drugs, booze, weapons, or other contraband. Respect sometimes comes out in funny ways.

Gotta go, Black Uhuru is playing tonight, and I might as well get paid to enjoy them. So much pot...........

charyuop
02-10-2014, 01:13 AM
You clearly haven't heard any of my sensei's jokes, then. Respect comes in a wide variety of packages. A dojo mate from way back found himself somehow miraculously in an elevator alone with Hulk Hogan, of all people. Doug is not huge, but he was a wily midkyu at the time, and Hulk Hogan is actually ginormous. Doug didn't want to be rude and not acknowledge his good fortune of getting an elevator trip with Hulk, so he grinned, sidled up beside Mr. Hogan and said....... "WUSS." Doug says Hogan laughed, shook Doug's hand, and they had a nice talk about ukemi for a few floors. There was respect there.

I was working a concert, couple thousand people I had to pat down. A woman rolls up in a wheelchair, one of those motorized deals for folks with very little function and physical control. Guy behind her says "You gonna be a jerk and pat her down too?" Hell yeah I am. I pat her down, she's got nothing. I ask her about her backpack, guy behind her is getting bitchy at me for not giving the poor crippled girl a free pass. I search her backpack, and it's got a fat baggie full of doobs. I tell her straight up, like anyone else, " I dont care if you have a card, you CANNOT bring that shit in here. Give it up or take it back to your car." She groans but puts the chair in reverse, takes her weed back to her ride. Everyone else was shocked that poor crippled girl who was brave enough to come to a concert had a lot of grass on her, and they were more surprised that I was somehow rude enough to tell her she couldn't get in with it. She rolls back in 5 minutes later, and I search her again. She's clean, her bag is clean, her chair is clean. And she says to me, "Thank you for taking me seriously. You are the only security person in years who has had enough respect for me to actually search me." I gave her the same treatment I give anyone I pat down because she had the exact same capability as anyone to make trouble. I'm not going to look for her in a fight or crowdsurfing, but I'm sure as shit making sure she doesn't have any guns, drugs, booze, weapons, or other contraband. Respect sometimes comes out in funny ways.

Gotta go, Black Uhuru is playing tonight, and I might as well get paid to enjoy them. So much pot...........
Two different situations. We are talking about a dojo. Heck it happened to us too that we had a laugh on the mat or we get frustrated and mad.
But I find cussing something really inappropriate. I don't care how good is you sensei, but if he was the one cussing during his class, I would look for another dojo. Now, after class we usually sit down an hour and we talk and joke, that is different. But on the mat there is a certain behavior to keep.

dps
02-10-2014, 08:38 AM
Wow you're feelings are hurt because someone is cursing quietly at you while practicing.

Wait until someone attacks you for real while screaming obscenities at you.

You need to control your reaction to such things, it is part of the martial arts training.

Better not join the U.S. Marines, Army, Navy, or any military organization, they go out of their way to hurt your feelings especially during basic training.

Marriage might be out of the question too.

dps

PeterR
02-10-2014, 08:56 AM
Wow you're feelings are hurt because someone is cursing quietly at you while practicing.

Wait until someone attacks you for real while screaming obscenities at you.

You need to control your reaction to such things, it is part of the martial arts training.

Better not join the U.S. Marines, Army, Navy, or any military organization, they go out of their way to hurt your feelings especially during basic training.

Marriage might be out of the question too.

dps

Sorry David - I don't buy that. I am there to practice, get a good work-out, and build up a thirst for the beer that would surely follow. Can't be expected to put up with some egotistical twit massaging his own esteem by putting me or others down. That is usually what the cursing means - and we all have run into this at one point or the other.

Now if that were part of what was signed up for fine but its not. An ass is an ass.

Stuck
02-10-2014, 09:04 AM
Wow you're feelings are hurt because someone is cursing quietly at you while practicing.

Wait until someone attacks you for real while screaming obscenities at you.

You need to control your reaction to such things, it is part of the martial arts training.

Better not join the U.S. Marines, Army, Navy, or any military organization, they go out of their way to hurt your feelings especially during basic training.

Marriage might be out of the question too.

dps

So you think just because i go to a dojo that i have given up my right not to be cussed at and talked down to when i get something wrong?

Been there and done that.

If i wanted that then i would have enlisted but i did not and ended up in a dojo that explicitly states that swearing is not accepted on the mat. Personally i think swearing on the mat either to ones self or towards others is disrespectful to our founder but that is just my opinion and many would agree. But it is not just the swearing that bothers me it is because i dont live up to her standards and have to get abused because of it. In the UK swearing alone can land you in jail if you are not careful and not respectful of others.

Was married for ten years and have two kids.

Have a nice day

dps
02-10-2014, 09:07 AM
Now if that were part of what was signed up for fine but its not. An ass is an ass.

Sorry Sensei, I did not sign up for it in any part of the Aikido or any martial art that I signed up for. Nor high school sports that I took, any of the jobs that I had, the church that I went to, or any part of life that it happened in. but it does happen and the only real control you have over it is how you react to it.

Asses everywhere you go, need to learn to deal with them.. Part of the martial arts training.

dps

lbb
02-10-2014, 09:18 AM
This thread sure is full of YMMV, isn't it? Where I train, we're strongly encouraged to leave our baggage outside when we come into the dojo. The way I see it, that includes both the need to swear at a training partner out of frustration, and the burdens of our past traumas. It's understandable that we don't always completely succeed, but it's important to try. You can't train effectively if you're carrying baggage with you.

Stuck
02-10-2014, 09:19 AM
Sorry Sensei, I did not sign up for it in any part of the Aikido or any martial art that I signed up for. Nor high school sports that I took, any of the jobs that I had, the church that I went to, or any part of life that it happened in. but it does happen and the only real control you have over it is how you react to it.

Asses everywhere you go, need to learn to deal with them.. Part of the martial arts training.

dps

I am dealing with it. I initially told the chick that i learn slow. The second time i said i am a white belt and i learn at my own pace and i will make mistakes. What more do i have to do to stop her from disrespecting me? Not "play" with her anymore?

I tried to get some opinions from others who have dealt with this and you tell me to suck it up and deal with it. Is that not what i am doing? I am dealing with it. If you cant see that then that is not my problem mate.

lbb
02-10-2014, 09:43 AM
I tried to get some opinions from others who have dealt with this

But we haven't. We haven't trained with this person and we haven't trained in your dojo. Have you spoken to others in your dojo? What do they have to say?

If you ask here, please don't blame us for responding out of our own experiences, not out of some knowledge of your situation that we don't have. If you're going to be upset by the opinions of people who don't fully understand your situation, then it's best not to soliciti opinions from people who cannot have such understanding.

PeterR
02-10-2014, 09:48 AM
Sorry Sensei, I did not sign up for it in any part of the Aikido or any martial art that I signed up for. Nor high school sports that I took, any of the jobs that I had, the church that I went to, or any part of life that it happened in. but it does happen and the only real control you have over it is how you react to it.

Asses everywhere you go, need to learn to deal with them.. Part of the martial arts training.

dps

Right David I get that - and yes no matter where you go every now and then you will run into that type and we should all learn to deal with it.

My point is that we should deal with it and not fall into the false logic that it is part of the martial arts training and thereby just put up with it (sorry if I misread your post).

I am looking at this from both a student perspective and also running the occasional class. There is nothing more frustrating from both sides than having what is essentially disruptive behavior. The question from the original poster is how do you deal with it.

dps
02-10-2014, 10:16 AM
As an instructor it should not be allowed nor should it come from the person instructing.. As a student it is only disruptive if you let it upset you. Part of the martial arts training is to remain calm during an attack. You should be able to not react to quiet swearing during practice.

dps

PeterR
02-10-2014, 10:27 AM
As an instructor it should not be allowed nor should it come from the person instructing.. As a student it is only disruptive if you let it upset you. Part of the martial arts training is to remain calm during an attack. You should be able to not react to quiet swearing during practice.

dps
And I think in this case you are completely right. It sounds very much like the cusser is not much further along the path as the cussee and there really is no danger to any of the parties. I think the original poster did right by asking the person directly - at least now they are aware of the problem. Beyond that its best to just let it slide and use your other partners to get better.

charyuop
02-10-2014, 10:59 PM
I wouldn't let it go. It happened already twice and it is likely to happen again. You can't have two martial artists practice together if there is 'tension' between the two. Injuries might come out of this situation. I would let the sensei know and let him handle it. It's his job.

I came back to aikido after several years for personal illness. I did not know if I had to come back because I did not want to interfere with classes due to my limitations. Sensei told me to trust him and go back. A sensei's job is to handle with the situations, not just to teach you a technique.

Stuck
02-14-2014, 03:17 PM
Tonight's class was interesting to say the least.

I went in with a fresh mind and not to let her actions affect me. I was again paired up with her and it went fine until she started slapping me physically in places when i got stuff wrong like you do with little children to correct them. Little slaps.

At first lightly but then it got harder until i had enough of it and told her not to slap me when i get stuff wrong. I am not a 6 year old, i told her, and do not need to be slapped like that to be corrected. I even mentioned it again in case she did not get it that she has got to stop slapping me like that as it is wrong.

She kept saying no. As if she is not going to stop slapping me. At which point i said yes. It turned into a tug of war with words which just made me angry since was basically telling me to my face that she is gonna continue slapping me despite my wishes not to. She knew i was being serious just by the look of my face as it was getting angry. This was no game anymore and i was not backing down. If i ask you not to do something to me you better stop it or else. There was no mistaking me and my intentions not to be slapped.

When i found myself taking steps to square off with her since she would not back down with her threats to keep hitting me i called sensei over and told him that somebody needs to talk to her about her actions.

I bowed to her even though she did not deserve it and did an about face as the class was over.

Tonight she was boasting about how she get the technique after two months. She was trying to put me down again. This was just before she slapped my arm the last time and i spoke up against it.

I pay money to learn this stuff at my own pace and will not be treated like that. How she treats her husband and others in the class is not my concern but i will not be slapped like a 6 year old. Especially since i asked her not to do that anymore.

After class in the male changing room i said to her husband about the slapping and that i do not like it. He responded by saying she was just playing at which point i said i dont care since i will not be corrected that way. He replied by saying:"are you a man or what?". I said it has nothing to do with that and it is disrespectful. I left it at that. If he wants to be treated like that it's his problem and not mine but i will not stand for it.

After a few tug of war yes and no's she could not have mistaken my intention not to be treated like that so why did she persist? She was again cussing on the mat for various reasons which probably included me.

I have resolved to not train with either of them anymore. I dont need that disrespect.

So, i tried to let her words go and she starts resorting to physical actions. I imagine that it would soon progress to actual physical violence and possible slaps to the face had i not put a stop to it. This chick is crazy.

I

Brian Gillaspie
02-14-2014, 05:05 PM
Have you explained in detail to your sensei what is going on? If so has he taken steps to change her behavior? If he has not, and assuming we are getting a complete and accurate story from you, then you may want to start looking for a new dojo or learn to accept her behavior. I'm not condoning her actions but if your sensei doesn't want to change it then I have no reason to believe it will ever change.

Janet Rosen
02-14-2014, 06:54 PM
it went fine until she started slapping me physically in places when i got stuff wrong like you do with little children to correct them. Little slaps...
At first lightly but then it got harder until i had enough of it and told her not to slap me when i get stuff wrong. I am not a 6 year old, i told her, and do not need to be slapped like that to be corrected....
She kept saying no. As if she is not going to stop slapping me. At which point i said yes. It turned into a tug of war with words which just made me angry since was basically telling me to my face that she is gonna continue slapping me despite my wishes not to....
When i found myself taking steps to square off with her since she would not back down with her threats to keep hitting me i called sensei over and told him that somebody needs to talk to her about her actions.

Jeez. She is out of control. You were correct to stand up for your right to train without abuse, and you were correct to do so without resorting to her b.s. You are correct to absolutely not train with her anymore. You were correct to call over your Sensei and I am curious to know his response - to me that is the key to whether I would continue in the dojo or not.
Frankly I don't think I'd bring her spouse into it at all. Deal with her, deal with Sensei. If the dojo culture at large tolerates a sempai treating a junior like that, I for one would be out of there in a heartbeat.

charyuop
02-14-2014, 07:23 PM
Either talk face to face to sensei or leave the dojo.
There is always a less aiki way...next time you practice shihonage, do it wrong and apologize...after you break her elbow (I'm kidding of course)

Stuck
02-14-2014, 08:37 PM
On wednesday's class i did talk briefly with several of my sensei's about the subject of her. So this was prior to tonights', fridays, episode. One said to ignore it, the verbal stuff, as best as i can just as janet suggested in this thread. So i did, till it turned to physical actions at which point i had to say something to her directly.

The other sensei's suggested, on wednesday, that "they will take care of it". Meaning that they will speak with her. At that point i did not want to be seen as not being able to "take care" of my own issues and i was troubled by somebody else trying to take care of my own issues and i mentioned that to them. I cant have that. It is not helping me and could even make me look weak and unable to handle my own situations. They suggested that there are ways for them to talk to her without it looking like it came from me. As in they overheard her say stuff and this is not the way.

I do not think it will work now as the cat is truly out of the bag.

We have lots of different sensei's who teach us as they, the dan grades, are all on a revolving teaching calendar. The sensei tonight whom i pulled aside came back with:"She was just kidding around". I really respect this person and cannot believe that he is ok with this behavior as she was just kidding around.

That is not good enough for me and i cannot accept that at all.

What kind of a person says, repeatedly, no when first asked and then told for them not to hit me? Seriously, i almost got in this chicks face till i thought better of it and got sensei as she is just trucking nuts and has no respect for me. There is no way in hell she could have thought i was kidding when i asked her not to hit me.

Sorry. English is not my mother tongue either and i do tend to form rather long run on sentences :)

vjw
02-14-2014, 09:14 PM
Tonight's class was interesting to say the least.

At first lightly but then it got harder until i had enough of it and told her not to slap me when i get stuff wrong. I am not a 6 year old, i told her, and do not need to be slapped like that to be corrected.
I

You think it would have been ok for her to do this to you when you where 6 years old? :eek:

Stuck
02-15-2014, 10:25 AM
You think it would have been ok for her to do this to you when you where 6 years old? :eek:

I agree that correcting behavior in a manner that involves harmful physical action is inherently wrong when the punishment is excessive or deemed to be hurtful physically.

But is your answer to a child reaching up to the hot and invisible ceramic cooker to let them get burned? Would you rather let the child's hand burn? Would you let the child pull down the boiling hot kettle to teach them a lesson? In the end you are doing more harm than a simple instinctive smack would do and for what reason? Or would you smack the hand away in a desperate attempt to stop something terrible from happening? That is the difference i am trying to highlight.

Do you have children? I do. I know what they can get up to. If you do not have children you might not be aware of how easily they can place themselves into danger no matter how much you try to educate them.

It's a tough choice i know. I got the smack, more or less beatings, when i was little but there is a difference, i think, between a gentle correction, or prevention as i like to think of it, than some hard core beating which i do not approve of. I thought i would make that distinction.

I agree with your aim of your statement however i needed to bring to light the fact that this does not work in the real world.

Stuck
02-15-2014, 10:49 AM
You think it would have been ok for her to do this to you when you where 6 years old? :eek:

Furthermore, how do you reconcile your statement with the recent use of a shinai in our art?

Apparently to strike and cause pain to your student in an attempt to teach them something when they did wrong was popular. I have learned by accident when forgetting to block the atemi. It hurts. So you remember. But this is accidental learning if that makes sense to you.

I don't approve of the shinai method especially since i am paying for the instruction. If i wanted that sort of interaction i would visit a dominatrix. Which i don't. But again there is a difference between the shinai method of correction using pain and the use of a technique which i had to use which was a gentle smack.

I did not sign up to be taught in this manner by a senior student. My child does not know any better when they reach up to the stove. Slight differences.

I do appreciate your comment however. It made me think. Thank you

Brian Gillaspie
02-15-2014, 11:45 AM
The other sensei's suggested, on wednesday, that "they will take care of it". Meaning that they will speak with her. At that point i did not want to be seen as not being able to "take care" of my own issues and i was troubled by somebody else trying to take care of my own issues and i mentioned that to them. I cant have that. It is not helping me and could even make me look weak and unable to handle my own situations. They suggested that there are ways for them to talk to her without it looking like it came from me. As in they overheard her say stuff and this is not the way.

I would recommend letting the senseis help if they are offering to help. The girl obviously is not going to listen to you. And asking someone for help does not mean you are weak.

Krystal Locke
02-15-2014, 12:19 PM
I am dealing with it. I initially told the chick that i learn slow. The second time i said i am a white belt and i learn at my own pace and i will make mistakes. What more do i have to do to stop her from disrespecting me? Not "play" with her anymore?

I tried to get some opinions from others who have dealt with this and you tell me to suck it up and deal with it. Is that not what i am doing? I am dealing with it. If you cant see that then that is not my problem mate.

Give us some more to go on here. You say you are a white belt. That does not necessarily tell us much about your experience. How long have you trained? Why do you do aikido? How long has the woman you are having a problem with trained? Why does she train? Here's a big question about doing aikido. What expectations are you really carrying into your training?

There's lots of talk about second languages here. What's more important is that you both seem to be dealing with second cultures. Third, even, unless you are maybe training in Japan. What is the cultural background of the dojo you train at? What is your cultural background? What is hers? What is the gender dynamic? Age dynamic?

Lets talk about respect. You say that you think strong word choice on the mat is disrespectful to the founder. Why do you think that? Do you think that the founder (which founder? I'm assuming you're talking about Morihei Ueshiba, but I could easily be wrong.) is offended by this woman's actions? Are you carrying expectations as a white belt into your training? You think that the woman you're having a problem is disrespecting you. Why do you think that? If I pointed out that you just called her a chick, would it be unreasonable for me to think you are not respectful of her? If cussing is disrespectful bad wrong and awful, does changing the word fucking to the word trucking somehow erase the intent behind it?

You are having a problem with an individual. You have choices, you are making choices, and you are acting upon your choices. This is good self-defense, and good training. But you also have to evaluate the consequences of your choices and actions.

One action you have taken is to bring your issue to aikiweb. Even anonymously, you are taking a minor internal dojo conflict to a very public forum populated by a self-selected small community of interest. A word of advice from an aikiweb sempai, and this is straight up the voice of much tender experience... THE PEOPLE YOU TRAIN WITH HAVE JUST AS MUCH ACCESS TO AIKIWEB AS YOU DO. Another word of warning, people train for a huge variety of reasons and this seriously affects the way they train. It also seriously affects the way they respond to things like public posts on aikiweb. You will get a huge variety of answers for this sort of problem. They aren't attacks upon you, because we dont know your sitch, They are honest representations of how the individuals responding to you would react to the issue as far as you've described it.

A bit about myself and my training, and why I respond the way I do, just so you can see that there are lots of ways to look at this issue. I am a 48 year old fat lesbian who came to aikido in the late 80s solely for the love of a woman and stayed for the love of the dojo and the art. Hard times led me to pimp my rank out and spend the last several years working as a bouncer. I get paid jack shit to stop fights quickly and efficiently. I get paid not even beer money to stop people from doing illegal or dangerous things without escalating situations. The shit I deal with is real. Knife fights, drunk driving, gang hits, serious business. I have boxes of seized weapons at home. Sometimes I sell them on eBay. I have handed heroin rigs and pounds of coke, pot, meth, little yellow pills, everything to the sheriffs. I still groan a little handing over the weed. Wish I could sell all that on eBay. Folks get one chance to behave or they go home and yes I can and will legally choke someone's ass out and carry them to the parking lot because I want to go home to my partner and cats and dinner, not necessarily in that order. I train in aikido because it gets me home at the end of the night and it keeps me from talking to the judge too much. Someone just discussed an essay about "getting to live at home" that was some truly true stuff.

I have got to not get my back up when confronted with an asshole at work or I will have trouble. So, I practice that. Specifically. Both in my security specific training and occasionally at my dojo. You can use your situation to train yourself in exactly the same way, without anyone even knowing it. Look up "woofing." It is good but difficult practice. I have had every person who cares about me and knows me at all step right up and tell me all my shit, in front of everyone, as aggressively as they possibly can, seriously trying to push my kill button. These people know what hurts me, they know who I am, and they dont find cussing difficult at all. They even use the C word, a lot, because they've learned that if I'm gonna snap, it'll be after that. At this point, I can easily maintain my center with anyone except my partner. Makes dealing with assholes easy and fun.

Try woofing. Your reaction to your training partners is your business to handle the way you want to. Just be sure that you are choosing actions, not reacting to outside stimulus. This is good aikido training.

So, you talked to the woman directly. That's great. But what did you actually say? Were you really as unspecific as you put forth here? Did you really tenkan all over the place and say "I'm a slow learner...." and "I'm just a white belt..."? Did that get the response you wanted? Are there other options to try in further communication? Have you tried an irimi entry like "I respond very strongly and very negatively to strong language. I do this because (insert reason here). Please do not use swearing around me. And I also dont like your slapping my hand in correction, I take it as patronizing and dismissal."?

You say you've spoken with several sensei about this. Did this work out, or did it spread the problem around? You say that part of your dojo's published expectations is no cussing on the mat. Why is this not being enforced by the dojocho (the person who actually is the head of the dojo)? Is the no cussing rule soley de jure? It doesn't seem to be de facto. Dojos are often like that because people are often like that. Kinda hard to get the horse back into the barn, but consider having a sit down talk between you, your problem partner and the head of the dojo. Dont be surprised if you dont get all your expectations met. Choose your responses. Yes, you can refuse to train with someone. Yes, you can confront them directly. Yes you can find another dojo. Yes, you can quit aikido. Yes, you can give as good as you get. The reason that the safest place is under sword is that any direction you choose to move from there is not under the sword. The direction you choose will affect the response you get and will inform your future movements. This is aikido.

I think martial arts gives us a uniquely useful curriculum for learning a single principle. I can only control me. (And sometimes, I cant even control that.) Well, relationships do that, too. Hmm.

Stuck
02-15-2014, 03:19 PM
Give us some more to go on here. You say you are a white belt. That does not necessarily tell us much about your experience. How long have you trained? Why do you do aikido? How long has the woman you are having a problem with trained? Why does she train? Here's a big question about doing aikido. What expectations are you really carrying into your training?

There's lots of talk about second languages here. What's more important is that you both seem to be dealing with second cultures. Third, even, unless you are maybe training in Japan. What is the cultural background of the dojo you train at? What is your cultural background? What is hers? What is the gender dynamic? Age dynamic?

Lets talk about respect. You say that you think strong word choice on the mat is disrespectful to the founder. Why do you think that? Do you think that the founder (which founder? I'm assuming you're talking about Morihei Ueshiba, but I could easily be wrong.) is offended by this woman's actions? Are you carrying expectations as a white belt into your training? You think that the woman you're having a problem is disrespecting you. Why do you think that? If I pointed out that you just called her a chick, would it be unreasonable for me to think you are not respectful of her? If cussing is disrespectful bad wrong and awful, does changing the word fucking to the word trucking somehow erase the intent behind it?

You are having a problem with an individual. You have choices, you are making choices, and you are acting upon your choices. This is good self-defense, and good training. But you also have to evaluate the consequences of your choices and actions.

One action you have taken is to bring your issue to aikiweb. Even anonymously, you are taking a minor internal dojo conflict to a very public forum populated by a self-selected small community of interest. A word of advice from an aikiweb sempai, and this is straight up the voice of much tender experience... THE PEOPLE YOU TRAIN WITH HAVE JUST AS MUCH ACCESS TO AIKIWEB AS YOU DO. Another word of warning, people train for a huge variety of reasons and this seriously affects the way they train. It also seriously affects the way they respond to things like public posts on aikiweb. You will get a huge variety of answers for this sort of problem. They aren't attacks upon you, because we dont know your sitch, They are honest representations of how the individuals responding to you would react to the issue as far as you've described it.

A bit about myself and my training, and why I respond the way I do, just so you can see that there are lots of ways to look at this issue. I am a 48 year old fat lesbian who came to aikido in the late 80s solely for the love of a woman and stayed for the love of the dojo and the art. Hard times led me to pimp my rank out and spend the last several years working as a bouncer. I get paid jack shit to stop fights quickly and efficiently. I get paid not even beer money to stop people from doing illegal or dangerous things without escalating situations. The shit I deal with is real. Knife fights, drunk driving, gang hits, serious business. I have boxes of seized weapons at home. Sometimes I sell them on eBay. I have handed heroin rigs and pounds of coke, pot, meth, little yellow pills, everything to the sheriffs. I still groan a little handing over the weed. Wish I could sell all that on eBay. Folks get one chance to behave or they go home and yes I can and will legally choke someone's ass out and carry them to the parking lot because I want to go home to my partner and cats and dinner, not necessarily in that order. I train in aikido because it gets me home at the end of the night and it keeps me from talking to the judge too much. Someone just discussed an essay about "getting to live at home" that was some truly true stuff.

I have got to not get my back up when confronted with an asshole at work or I will have trouble. So, I practice that. Specifically. Both in my security specific training and occasionally at my dojo. You can use your situation to train yourself in exactly the same way, without anyone even knowing it. Look up "woofing." It is good but difficult practice. I have had every person who cares about me and knows me at all step right up and tell me all my shit, in front of everyone, as aggressively as they possibly can, seriously trying to push my kill button. These people know what hurts me, they know who I am, and they dont find cussing difficult at all. They even use the C word, a lot, because they've learned that if I'm gonna snap, it'll be after that. At this point, I can easily maintain my center with anyone except my partner. Makes dealing with assholes easy and fun.

Try woofing. Your reaction to your training partners is your business to handle the way you want to. Just be sure that you are choosing actions, not reacting to outside stimulus. This is good aikido training.

So, you talked to the woman directly. That's great. But what did you actually say? Were you really as unspecific as you put forth here? Did you really tenkan all over the place and say "I'm a slow learner...." and "I'm just a white belt..."? Did that get the response you wanted? Are there other options to try in further communication? Have you tried an irimi entry like "I respond very strongly and very negatively to strong language. I do this because (insert reason here). Please do not use swearing around me. And I also dont like your slapping my hand in correction, I take it as patronizing and dismissal."?

You say you've spoken with several sensei about this. Did this work out, or did it spread the problem around? You say that part of your dojo's published expectations is no cussing on the mat. Why is this not being enforced by the dojocho (the person who actually is the head of the dojo)? Is the no cussing rule soley de jure? It doesn't seem to be de facto. Dojos are often like that because people are often like that. Kinda hard to get the horse back into the barn, but consider having a sit down talk between you, your problem partner and the head of the dojo. Dont be surprised if you dont get all your expectations met. Choose your responses. Yes, you can refuse to train with someone. Yes, you can confront them directly. Yes you can find another dojo. Yes, you can quit aikido. Yes, you can give as good as you get. The reason that the safest place is under sword is that any direction you choose to move from there is not under the sword. The direction you choose will affect the response you get and will inform your future movements. This is aikido.

I think martial arts gives us a uniquely useful curriculum for learning a single principle. I can only control me. (And sometimes, I cant even control that.) Well, relationships do that, too. Hmm.

First of all a big thanks for the sheer amount of feedback. Although the quote you chose to display was directed at a specific person, it was david skaggs i believe, but correct me if i am wrong, i can and will chose to address the many other questions you seem to have.

How long have i trained? Since early december and i have no other MA experience.

Why do i do aikido? Many reasons, krystal. Some have been mentioned in this thread others you can just assume such as getting fit.

How long has she trained? I assume, without having asked her, that it was only a matter of a couple of months before i started. She still gets stuff wrong, footing for example, on the red belt, 8th kyu, syllabus so it cant be much more than me.

What is your cultural background? I am more cultured than most, it seems, having grown up till i was 15 in germany not speaking english. In 1985, i moved to santa cruz, california and spent the next 20 years there. Got divorced and am now living in the UK. I have been exposed to and lived in a , predominantly, mufti-cultural environment all my life. I do not know anything other than living in that environment and speak three languages with the addition of japanese since i joined aikido.

Why does she train? I never bothered to ask. Never got that far. Not really interested. I train for my own reasons and why she trains is not really a concern of mine. Should it? I suppose, now that i think about it, the reason why she trains could be to tone down her peculiar way of dealing with people. I find her abrasive and abusive in nature. But i never asked.

What expectations are you really carrying into your training? To get better at it if i put the effort in. Hardly any expectations but plenty of hopes and wishes. I would be happy if i learn or take something from each time i step on the mat. I wish to get better at the art i am beginning to love. I wish to be able to handle situations better like you do for your work.

What is the cultural background of the dojo you train at? All but three of us are brits.

What is hers? She is from lithuania.

What is the gender dynamic? Of our dojo? Predominantly male with 2-3 women showing up most nights.

Age dynamic? In the adult class most of us are post 30 with a few younger ones like the new women that show up and they seem to be in their early 20's or very late teens. It ranges from 20-50.

Lets talk about respect. lets do and the fact that i never mentioned that i found it disrespectful to myself when she was muttering stuff under her breath, let alone the slaps that she thought were playful that i did not.

You say that you think strong word choice on the mat is disrespectful to the founder. Why do you think that? To me cussing seems a total lack of of control over yourself if you have to resort to doing that and doing it in a place where we are trying to train ourselves to control ourselves. I practice yoshikan so even though i understand it is a branch of ueshiba's aikido we can still infer that he is the founder of it even though it was Gozo Shioda. I refer to morehei ueshiba as our founder though.

Are you carrying expectations as a white belt into your training? Yes, I expect to make mistakes and it is ok. My wishes and wants on the other hand are somewhat goal oriented. Meaning i wish to see myself progress.

You think that the woman you're having a problem is disrespecting you. Why do you think that? Absolutely do think that she is disrespecting me. Being hit by a stranger more or less for actions that do not conform to her standards of what is aikido is a step too far for me. Being hit is disrespectful by itself and what right does she have to do that to me? None. What is even stranger is that even after being asked not to do that she insisted on continuing with this behavior as if it was some kind of game to her. She treats her husband like this on the mat and i was wondering myself why he puts up with that and why nobody has stopped her from doing it on the mat. It is as if the sensei's do not want to get involved in a "domestic relationship" on the mat. They must have seen this behavior and are blind if they have not.

If I pointed out that you just called her a chick, would it be unreasonable for me to think you are not respectful of her? Short answer, no. However I only called her that here on the forum and not to her face. Not that this is any less of a tag just because it was said there. I got called dude all the time in cali and it did not bother me one bit. To me it is a slang term that i picked up in cali. To me it is an affectionate term but to others it could mean something else. Whether or not you find that offensive i do not know and if it was i am sorry and will try to use less colorful terms.

If cussing is disrespectful bad wrong and awful, does changing the word fucking to the word trucking somehow erase the intent behind it? Nope. However there is a difference when i directly address people with cuss words as opposed to using in a descriptive manner to describe an event.

THE PEOPLE YOU TRAIN WITH HAVE JUST AS MUCH ACCESS TO AIKIWEB AS YOU DO. With their limited english i highly doubt they would come here. It is possible, but not likely. Even if they did at this point in time come here i could care less about them knowing that i am asking about how to deal with her here. If she was concerned, which she does not seem to be, about the repercussions of her actions then she would not be hitting people in the first place. Also, i made my own sensei's aware of this thread so they are able to follow it if they wish as well as put their own info in.

My aunt is a lesbian and i love her just the same.

I have got to not get my back up when confronted with an asshole at work or I will have trouble. That is what i am aiming for but not having the capacity to think like you do yet since i am still using my reptilian brain i have much more to go it seems. Personally i think you are nuts to take your life into your own hands, so to speak, for peanuts but that is just my opinion. If you are gonna do it at least get paid for it. And i mean well. Not just beer money.

"woofing". I have looked that up prior to you mentioning it and i am aware of what it is. This could be useful. But i do not know if our dojo does any of that. Would be nice if they address the mental side of self defense. Putting the fence up, watching for the signs of impending aggression ect. This is just one part of many how aikido is helping me become a better person. I read the art of fighting without fighting by geoff thompson and found some useful bits in there.

So, you talked to the woman directly. That's great. But what did you actually say? Were you really as unspecific as you put forth here? Did you really tenkan all over the place and say "I'm a slow learner...." and "I'm just a white belt..."? Yes, i really did.

Did that get the response you wanted? I guess not. There was no response afaik or remember. But i really tried to de-escalate what i thought, correctly, was directed at me. I came here after i said that stuff happened to me.

Are there other options to try in further communication? Of course. Do i want to engage with her at this point? I am not sure. Do i remember the very sudden ramp-up in speed of the attacks and sincerity of them by her husband all of a sudden this last week? I do. What did that make me think? That is was some sort of retribution or that i am imagining things. But just this last week he went to what seems like %50 power and speed on a white belt all of a sudden when prior to these events no such power was exerted. That was not fun for me and i am not repeating that because i nearly had my arm ripped out of the socket. No thanks. Even if i am just imagining it i can train with others with less harm. I am in no rush to get injured by some revengeful husband now. Especially one who thinks i am "not man enough" as he questioned. Don't need that.

You say you've spoken with several sensei about this. Did this work out, or did it spread the problem around? Got some responses and waiting on others so i guess it spread my problem around the dojo. At least to the higher ups. Nobody low knows about this and this is the way i wanted it. Hence my anonymous appearance here.

You say that part of your dojo's published expectations is no cussing on the mat. Why is this not being enforced by the dojocho (the person who actually is the head of the dojo)? Is the no cussing rule soley de jure? Because nobody has made that person aware of it yet. But they are now or will be when they show up next. I can understand the occasional cuss word if somebody nearly ripped out your arm but i am just concerned with the cussing that is meant to put you down. When i get better and can let it just bounce off of me like you can i can deal with it better. I am not able to do that at the moment, sorry. I will strive to better myself. Seeing examples like yourself does help. We lower people really do look up at you people for examples on how to behave and how to react.

I will consider sitting down and having a chat with this person and the head of the dojo. But my trust in her and her husband has now been destroyed. It's not likely i will ever train with these two again just based on what i have felt, seen and heard from them. No amount of talking is now going to take away the fear that my arm is gonna get ripped out. I do not need them to progress and they do not need me so we can co-exist and i can even sit in seiza next to them as we are similar rank and i would have to sit next to them.

thank you

charyuop
02-15-2014, 06:42 PM
Unless I'm wrong, as far as I know, student couldn't even talk during o'sensei classes. Now, teachers were surely not nice at that era (heck I've seen o'sensei doing iriminage to a kid student and it was pretty hard). But hitting to train is one thing, hit to taunt is another.
I usually punch the ribs (light) or stop in front of the face to show nage if his position is wrong and leaves open to my attack...actually today I hit one on the lips lightly, I felt so bad :-(

Malicat
02-15-2014, 08:17 PM
A bit about myself and my training, and why I respond the way I do, just so you can see that there are lots of ways to look at this issue. I am a 48 year old fat lesbian who came to aikido in the late 80s solely for the love of a woman and stayed for the love of the dojo and the art. Hard times led me to pimp my rank out and spend the last several years working as a bouncer. I get paid jack shit to stop fights quickly and efficiently. I get paid not even beer money to stop people from doing illegal or dangerous things without escalating situations. The shit I deal with is real. Knife fights, drunk driving, gang hits, serious business. I have boxes of seized weapons at home. Sometimes I sell them on eBay. I have handed heroin rigs and pounds of coke, pot, meth, little yellow pills, everything to the sheriffs. I still groan a little handing over the weed. Wish I could sell all that on eBay. Folks get one chance to behave or they go home and yes I can and will legally choke someone's ass out and carry them to the parking lot because I want to go home to my partner and cats and dinner, not necessarily in that order. I train in aikido because it gets me home at the end of the night and it keeps me from talking to the judge too much. Someone just discussed an essay about "getting to live at home" that was some truly true stuff.

I really really really want to visit Krystal's dojo now. :)

Janet Rosen
02-15-2014, 09:22 PM
I really really really want to visit Krystal's dojo now. :)

NorCal/SoOre trip in your future? :)

James Sawers
02-16-2014, 02:09 PM
I really really really want to visit Krystal's dojo now. :)

Hell, I'd like to visit her bar......!!!!:eek:

lbb
02-16-2014, 05:20 PM
At this point, it seems a bit beside the point who's at fault. Your dojo has offered you a means of resolution, that is, for the senseis to take care of it. If you are unwilling to let that process go forward and to abide by the results, how do you intend to continue at this dojo? As anarchistic as things may seem to be, I think you'll find that you can't simply make up your own rules about who you will and will not train with, how you'll train, etc. (particularly if you refuse the solution that is offered to you). So where will that leave you?

Stuck
02-16-2014, 07:17 PM
At this point, it seems a bit beside the point who's at fault. Your dojo has offered you a means of resolution, that is, for the senseis to take care of it. If you are unwilling to let that process go forward and to abide by the results, how do you intend to continue at this dojo? As anarchistic as things may seem to be, I think you'll find that you can't simply make up your own rules about who you will and will not train with, how you'll train, etc. (particularly if you refuse the solution that is offered to you). So where will that leave you?

My sensei's have offered a solution to the verbal stuff, not the actual physical striking which could easily be assault on the outside if you think about it. I have yet to mention the physical stuff as i was at one of our other dojo's for fridays lesson and i have to wait till monday to do that.

At least read the thread in its entirety if you are going to comment please. You are quoting a solution that was given prior to fridays event and is no longer applicable as we are on another level now that physical striking has been introduced. I appreciate you trying to help but the game has changed since you read the solution you think i need to follow.

Mary, lets just say that you got something wrong on the mat and I start slapping you. Every time you get something wrong i am gonna say you suck, you should give this crap up as you are friggen worthless.

This will get on your nerves and you will do something about it. There is no question about it. You are human and will defend yourself one day even if that day is twenty years, or even fifty years, from now. No human has that much control over themselves. You will crack eventually no matter how strong you think you are. You are no saint. You are not jesus, buddha or some other deity. Be realistic.

Now, why should you put up with all those years of me doing that to you?

If this continues the dojo is also opening themselves up to legal repercussions if this women is not dealt with as it is pretty close to harassment as it is. It is persistent even if she does not know what she is doing. The fact that she has been allowed to get away with it for so long is worrying. And she does not seem to want to back down when confronted about her behavior.

Yeah, i have a choice to continue going there or not but at this point it will solely rely on whether i am made to train with these two or not. Nobody can force me to "work" with anybody and if so then i will take my choice to walk and go someplace else.

Concessions are made for muslims who refuse to bow to the shomen so why none me? We are non-profit by the way so its not that simple.

I no longer trust those two to treat me in a safe manner on the mat. It's that simple. Nobody else is going to watch out for my welfare while on the mat. It's up for me. It's my job to prevent injury to myself and not yours.

I think this thread has gone as far as it can here so thanks to you all.

Brian Gillaspie
02-16-2014, 09:46 PM
You said the senseis are offering take care of it so let them do that. I don't know what their plan is but if they take care of it and nothing changes then in my honest opinion you need to find a different place to train.

Refusing to work with her is something you also need to discuss with your sensei. I can't imagine many senseis who will allow a student to refuse training with someone without getting the sensei's approval to do so.

I've been following this post. People have been giving good advice. You may not be happy with the outcome but without us being in your dojo I don't think there is much more advice you can be given.

Krystal Locke
02-16-2014, 10:54 PM
My sensei's have offered a solution to the verbal stuff, not the actual physical striking which could easily be assault on the outside if you think about it. I have yet to mention the physical stuff as i was at one of our other dojo's for fridays lesson and i have to wait till monday to do that.

At least read the thread in its entirety if you are going to comment please. You are quoting a solution that was given prior to fridays event and is no longer applicable as we are on another level now that physical striking has been introduced. I appreciate you trying to help but the game has changed since you read the solution you think i need to follow.

Mary, lets just say that you got something wrong on the mat and I start slapping you. Every time you get something wrong i am gonna say you suck, you should give this crap up as you are friggen worthless.

This will get on your nerves and you will do something about it. There is no question about it. You are human and will defend yourself one day even if that day is twenty years, or even fifty years, from now. No human has that much control over themselves. You will crack eventually no matter how strong you think you are. You are no saint. You are not jesus, buddha or some other deity. Be realistic.

Now, why should you put up with all those years of me doing that to you?

If this continues the dojo is also opening themselves up to legal repercussions if this women is not dealt with as it is pretty close to harassment as it is. It is persistent even if she does not know what she is doing. The fact that she has been allowed to get away with it for so long is worrying. And she does not seem to want to back down when confronted about her behavior.

Yeah, i have a choice to continue going there or not but at this point it will solely rely on whether i am made to train with these two or not. Nobody can force me to "work" with anybody and if so then i will take my choice to walk and go someplace else.

Concessions are made for muslims who refuse to bow to the shomen so why none me? We are non-profit by the way so its not that simple.

I no longer trust those two to treat me in a safe manner on the mat. It's that simple. Nobody else is going to watch out for my welfare while on the mat. It's up for me. It's my job to prevent injury to myself and not yours.

I think this thread has gone as far as it can here so thanks to you all.

Y'all gotta forgive my rant mode.....

Dude. Really. If you are going to take a martial art, you are going to get hit once in a while. While I agree that smacking your hand is a shitty way to communicate the fact that you're doing something wrong, the common, traditional, and very effective feedback loop in a martial art is a bit more uncomfortable than that.....

Your sempai do watch out for your welfare on the mat. That's what sempai do. Aikido is a martial art. It is for learning how to defend yourself from folks who intend to do far worse than hurt your feelings or make you a little uncomfortable. Effective training has got to go there. If you are at all in it for any defense or fighting skill, this is exactly what you will be coming up against over and over and over or you're doing it wrong. You will be coming up against yourself in reaction to other people. This is how martial arts changes your ego. This is polishing the mirror and sharpening the sword. Your bad sempai is actually a bad sempai and is actually the best training partner you've got. She pisses you off because you are pissing yourself off with her. If you get through this heck with her, you are really just getting through the outer candy shell of the hell you're giving yourself. This is what the folks who have been telling you that you're too sensitive have been saying.

Aikido IS about finding the center. Your center. Her center. The center of balance between you and her. The center of balance between you and her and her husband and your sempai and your sensei. The center between you and the entire universe Aikido IS meditation. It IS a good path to inner peace. All that woowoo bullshit means that in order to regain your center, you have to be continually knocked off your center. Emotionally, psychologically, physically, financially, logistically, thermodynamically, every single way you can be disturbed, aikido training HAS TO disturb you. Aikido training is kicking your ass and you are letting it. She is winning. Aikido is winning. Natural selection is winning. At your expense. What are you going to do about it?

Is it freaking easy to go hide and pretend that sitting politely unwashed in a cave is meditation. The pseudomystics and aikibunnies love that shit. They get to class early so that they can smile and ommmm at each other in peace and seiza in a perfect line for an hour before the aikido starts so that they can meditate before all that martialness running around making a mess starts. That is easy. Anyone can get all evolved and spiritual and crap when its quiet. They miss the biggest point, they miss why their training is ineffective. They miss that they are looking at it wrong. That sort of inner peace is fragile, brittle, precious, because it is easy. It is easy to be calm when the world around you is calm.

It is hard to be calm when the environment is noisy. It is really unbelievably hard to be aware, calm, rational, relaxed, perceptive, and everything else the accomplished martial artist/meditator is supposed to be when there's noise and lights and anger and pain and blood, and real, present danger. Too late to meditate. So, do it IN class. Practice meditation, practice self control when it is hard to be self-controlled, while you're getting all sweaty and the ukemi makes you want to puke and somebody is doing something you dont like to you. If you cant find your happy place in class with an uke you have a problem with, you will never find the psychological place that you can think from and use for your survival when your uke is actually trying to kill you.

If it is just the physical fitness you want, walk your dog. It'll work way better than aikido will. The fat old nidan is evidence of that noise. You want a deep connection with other people? Spend time with your family. If you want exercise with happy controlled physical contact with other people, ballroom dancing is great, lots of aikido folk even do that. If you want to learn how to defeat other people, get a gun and take lessons at the range. If you want to learn how to defeat yourself so that other people cannot defeat you, go to your aikido class, bow in, turn to your bad sempai, smile, and grab her wrist. She is ALWAYS going to be on the mat with you as long as you do aikido (or anything else) because YOU are always going to be on the mat with you....

You say that you now speak Japanese after a couple months of aikido. Great. Damatte keiko. Che....

lbb
02-17-2014, 06:24 AM
Krystal, you've got a lot of good points, but you're wrong about meditation. It's off the topic completely and the subject for a much longer thread, but believe me, you're utterly wrong that "[a]nyone can get all evolved and spiritual and crap when its quiet." Sit for a weekend, really DO IT as opposed to pretending to do it, as opposed to making up your own mind what it's all about and talking to yourself and making up your own stories about "this spiritual crap is crap" and thinking about what you'd rather be doing and what you'll have for dinner -- all the while you're supposed to be meditating -- and then come back and tell me that anyone can do it. Hell, tell me that YOU did it. I'll have much more respect for your views at that point...and, I predict, you'll be embarrassed by your earlier statements.

You have some good points here, but sitting isn't in contrast to what you advocate. Wanting one's aikido practice to always be congenial and comfortable is. You're right to tee off on that notion, but sitting meditation is not by any means congenial and comfortable,

jonreading
02-17-2014, 01:35 PM
My opinions on a topic that is maybe not complete enough to form an opinion...

Rei is an important part of training. In the beginning, I feel it also carries a burden of establishing a safe environment and setting expectations for how you will be treated. That is respect for your juniors, respect for for seniors and respect for your instructors. It sounds like, for whatever reason, you feel that your partner is not being respectful of you.

To this extent, you have an opportunity to inquire if you do not feel you are being treated respectfully and within the culture of the dojo. To Mary's point, as part of the dojo, you consent to the authority of the dojo. If you have appealed to the partner and appealed to the dojo and you still do not have satisfaction... It sounds like you are immersed in a culture and environment that is not going to give the satisfaction you want.

There are dojos that simply do not "click" with you. Its not about right and wrong as much as it is comfort. If you are doing things right, much of your aikido training should be uncomfortable and anxious. You need to be in a safe environment so you can concentrate on the training. It sounds like you are not in the right dojo.

To David's point, there are some things that are not acceptable on or off the mat. There are some things that are acceptable on the mat and they should be so obvious the dojo could hang a sing in the window. A large part of my early training was inclusive of striking; it was also part of the dojo culture and therefore expected as part of training. You either moved or was moved and everyone received that conditioning. Some people did not like that and left, but it was never a mistake to think that your training would be different than anyone else's.

Aikido tends to attract non-confrontationalists. I do not understand how so many people adverse to confrontation would train in a martial art, but... sometimes dojos do not do a great job of standing up for your interest. Sometimes your interests cause issues dojo leaders would rather not address. To this extent, you need to understand that you are your best advocate. You can either help compromise your interests or you can take the entirety of your interests elsewhere. Most people have some compromise in their training - you just need to keep your core interests intake.

Stuck
02-17-2014, 05:05 PM
I spoke with the head of the dojo tonight. He is aware now of this thread as i gave the details on how to find this place. I voiced my concerns and explained in the time that we have what i thought. The initial response was that he was gonna have none "of this fighting/tension in his dojo" and that either we work this out or one of us is gonna have to go. I agreed. I have been given "leave" from the couple for a bit to let some time pass and then we will talk. He is gonna talk with both of them in the near future. Probably wednesday.

My sensei told me stories of having japanese sensei's that slapped people straight up in the face as that is how, some, of the japanese deal with that situation if you get stuff wrong. I guess i am fortunate as that would not go down well with me at all and i would end up in a nasty shihonage on the floor. But that is their culture he said.

Time heals. I know it does. Hopefully some time away on both parties will be beneficial. I am not an angry young man and want confrontation. I do not seek it. I avoid that like i avoid the plague and always have. Maybe too much as i can't seem to take, what in her eyes would be, a simple slap to remind me that i got it wrong. Did the slap hurt me physically? No. It might have hurt my pride. I did feel violated and disrespected though. I am sure if i addressed the initial issues i had with her right away that i would not have had the time to let this build up into something bigger. I did try the subtle way by saying i am a white belt ect so its not just my fault as she progressed from verbal to physical action.

I have faith and confidence in my sensei and trust his judgement. I did come into the dojo with baggage just as she came into the dojo with some bad habits. I am far too sensitive and have not developed a thick skin like Krystal and others have. I envy you people but this can and will be worked on.

The thought of me leaving the dojo because i cannot deal with a situation is not one i want to face and am not willing to face despite my earlier protestations. I cant do it. I only have an issue with one person and not the whole dojo, so that can be dealt with by talking as opposed to not dealing with it. One of my best friends when i was younger i met during a fight. A young turkish boy in germany. It's not like our cultures could have contrasted any more. Mustafa a muslim and little pig eating me yet we got on.

I think it was krystal that said something to the effect of i will always be facing myself when i look at her and it did not make any sense at all to me. Till now. I think she means that my problem or inability to deal with my own issues and inability to just let the stuff brush off of me is what i see in her when we would face off again in the dojo during training. As in she will just remind me of what my own problems are.

I am not quitting. That would be giving in to defeat and i don't generally go down that path in the sports i have chosen in my life. I have always been a good sportsman and i will excel in aikido with the right preparation.

I still think janet's initial response of ignore it all was probably the best one. Had i done that i would not be sitting here. Had i thicker skin and could recognize that she is just playing and not trying to intentionally disrespect me as well as trying to help me by pointing out my mistakes i would not be here. But having been a victim of abuse when i was younger, beatings and large blocks of time spent staring at my four walls locked in my room, it seems i am not willing to let go of it. I still think of it too much and it is effecting me. Sensei said i need to let go of it. Let it go. It's hard but it seems it has a large grip on me and the way i think. It's not like we can get any serious help for it in the United states for it if you do not have health insurance so most of us trod though life with this baggage no matter where we go.

I want to apologize for my little outbursts as all of you were trying to help me and i was blind to the fact and disrespectful. Sorry.

I am just now coming to realize how deep aikido is and that it is not just a set of moves to defend yourself with. It's a state of mind.

Janet Rosen
02-17-2014, 05:44 PM
Sometimes this IS the training: Being able to think through and to work through having your buttons pushed and keep training, seeing what you are able to learn about yourself.

At times it also entails being able to verbally set limits with a partner, and practicing doing that on the mat is valuable training too.

Glad you are working this out.

Krystal Locke
02-17-2014, 06:17 PM
Krystal, you've got a lot of good points, but you're wrong about meditation. It's off the topic completely and the subject for a much longer thread, but believe me, you're utterly wrong that "[a]nyone can get all evolved and spiritual and crap when its quiet." Sit for a weekend, really DO IT as opposed to pretending to do it, as opposed to making up your own mind what it's all about and talking to yourself and making up your own stories about "this spiritual crap is crap" and thinking about what you'd rather be doing and what you'll have for dinner -- all the while you're supposed to be meditating -- and then come back and tell me that anyone can do it. Hell, tell me that YOU did it. I'll have much more respect for your views at that point...and, I predict, you'll be embarrassed by your earlier statements.

You have some good points here, but sitting isn't in contrast to what you advocate. Wanting one's aikido practice to always be congenial and comfortable is. You're right to tee off on that notion, but sitting meditation is not by any means congenial and comfortable,

Like I said, my post was a rant, a little hyperbolic, a little venting. If I came across too strong, just take is as entertainment. I used to sit. I would sit until I sweated from sitting. Sticks, no sticks, sitting, walking, a bowl, no bowl, half a glass of water, I've done a fair amount of that sort of meditation. I watched other folks' demons come out, I watched my own demons come out, I've rounded off more suzu than I've made. Toho kami emi tame from sun down to sun up. I just dont get hardly the value from it that I get from practicing the same mindfulness, presence, acceptance and intro/extrospection while in the midst of distraction and effort. Meditation is inherently paradoxical. Is the master awake? How is a fundamentally solipsistic practice ever going to answer that?

Most of y'all know I'm a pretty enthusiastic atheist, and I do think that a whole bunch of the spiritual/philosophical crap put on top of aikido is not just crap but crap that is a misinterpretation of a misappropriation of another culture's crap. If other folks get goodness out of it, go ahead on, I'll just tiptoe through and stretch in the dressing room. What I got from sitting was good in and of itself. It just didn't translate well to reality. It was ultimately just imbalance in the other direction.

lbb
02-17-2014, 07:57 PM
I just dont get hardly the value from it that I get from practicing the same mindfulness, presence, acceptance and intro/extrospection while in the midst of distraction and effort. Meditation is inherently paradoxical. Is the master awake? How is a fundamentally solipsistic practice ever going to answer that?

Meditation is not a solipsistic practice.

Most of y'all know I'm a pretty enthusiastic atheist

Bully for you, but while meditation is a broad term that can refer to a practice of a religious belief system, the kind of meditation you specifically mentioned doing has nothing at all to do with any belief in a deity. I'm quite sure you're aware of this. So what's the point of bringing up your atheism?

and I do think that a whole bunch of the spiritual/philosophical crap put on top of aikido is not just crap but crap that is a misinterpretation of a misappropriation of another culture's crap.

I predict you're going to find it impossible to have a civil and rational conversation with anyone on this topic as long as you insist on using terms like "crap" that are fraught with incivility.

Done with this distraction.

Eva Antonia
02-18-2014, 02:49 AM
I'm not an atheist and not too adverse against spirituality, even if I don't always understand it...but I liked this experssion "crap that is a misinterpretation of a misappropriation of another culture's crap" very much. It's applicable to much more than our version of aikido spirituality...

Best,

Eva

Stephen Nichol
02-20-2014, 07:53 PM
I really really really want to visit Krystal's dojo now. :)

Hell, I'd like to visit her bar......!!!!:eek:

Typically when you go visit someone to meet with them and train at their dojo you go out for dinner and drinks afterwards to swap stories.

I think in this case I would go meet Krystal and train with her then go out to her bar for dinner and a show ;)

Riai Maori
02-22-2014, 12:57 PM
a person in the dojo of higher rank than you who is muttering stuff, including swear words, under their breath,

I am 3 Kyu training as Uke with first Kyu. We are performing Tai no henka without grabbing or touching. Sensei is teaching off line body movement. The attack is Mune tsuki .For some unknown reason the First Kyu always grabs my wrist to perform Kote Gaeshi. I am getting annoyed as we are not supposed to make contact. I amp my attack up a bit to the displeasure of Nage, who completely miss’s grabbing my wrist. My action provokes Nage to walk off the mat. Surrounding training partners stop and look in amaze. I quickly approach Nage with an apology to which I get the reply “Fuck off” I approach Nage and whisper in his “ear do not talk to me like that again”! After training, off the mat I tell Sensei what happened? We avoid each other on the mat as to be expected, and then one day out of the blue the First Kyu wants to train with me. It was a pleasant experience to my surprise. As they say “Nip it in the bud” All the best with training.

anonymous
02-23-2014, 04:05 PM
To Stuck,

I kinda think that you are a bit of a gentleman. AND I commend you for not using your strength to retaliate, hit her back, or otherwise enforce your boundaries. I commend you for staying committed to finding a reasonable solution to an out of control situation. Clearly, she has been allowed to disrespect people and behave badly for some time.

If your sensei gave you the out option, or rather suggested that one of you leave, it would be me. You should not have to be harassed and pay money for it. It's Aikido, not MMA. Yes, it's a martial art. But like many martial arts, training with another person is an agreement. Things get unpredictable, risky and dangerous when one breaks the agreement.

I agree with Janet - going to her husband was not quite a good thing. But, I'm sure by now that you've realized that. Lesson learned.

Seems like she is a bully at best and that lead sensei needs to get her in line, or SHE should be told to leave.

Good luck to you and I hope you stay and she leaves, with her equally idiotic husband who questioned your manhood.